Royal Ballet School graduates news

[Ballet_novice]

13 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

So it appears the wrong children are being chosen and then they are not taught or inspired sufficiently!

Well at early age students may be assessed in a certain way. But then each one develop differently, physically and in characters and capabilities. We are and they are not all equally gifted. As in any professions, sports or any endeavour. It is not only a question of the training one has access to. 

[Ballet_novice]

11 hours ago, LinMM said:

I agree. 
It’s a bit like assessing children at age 11 for academic studies ( some will remember the old “11 plus exam” ) 

This forced children into different types of schools at too young an age. 
We were lucky in the County I lived in as a child as there was always good transfer between Grammar and Secondary Modern schools even before Comprehensive education came in and there was always quite a drop out from Grammar schools when you could leave school at 15 thus opening up lots of sixth form places to children who developed a bit later academically.
Unfortunately other children living elsewhere were not so lucky. 
So I think it is difficult to predict at age  11 who will turn out to be suitable for ballet in 7 or 8 years time. 
One would always hope all those admitted at 11 to RBS ( and similar) are going to go all the way of course but I can’t help feeling Life isn’t always so straight forward. 
I think if children are assessed out earlier ….say at 13 ….this should not prevent them being assessed back in again later on if things change again!! 
Where ballet is concerned it’s a very long time between 11 and 18. 

 

Very good point. 

[Ballet_novice]

12 hours ago, Lifeafterballet said:

I don’t think they are the wrong children, they are just too young for the schools to assess whether they have the natural facility for a career in classical ballet. It’s a rare thing and if you haven’t got it and try to force it you will hurt the child physically and mentally. We have personal experience of this. 
There are so many changes from 11 to 16, physically, mentally and emotionally that it doesn’t surprise me just how few continue to upper school. 
I am not going to be very popular here…. but maybe assessing out wasn’t a bad thing. It’s upsetting but if it’s in the best interest of the child then it’s necessary. 

Our daughter hurt herself physically and mentally to stay in her school and continue her ballet training. She knew exactly what she was doing, but not the long term implications of it.

Round peg, square hole. 
A [ short ] career in ballet is not worth that. 
 

Agree. As tough as it may be it is better to guide children towards what is their best interest. And children or is as parents may not necessarily always be able to determine that independently. 

[Peony]

I don’t think anyone would argue that there should be a 100% success rate but that it should probably be better than it is currently. I wonder how many girls have even made it from year 7 into the gcse years because I think last year it’s wasn’t that many? And then just 2 years later into upper school? Other similar schools certainly assess out but do they completely replace the students? It could be argued that things like injury, motivation, health are reasons for potential drop out that are modifiable by the school. If other schools can select at 10/11 and produce dancers why can’t rbs? I used to defend rbs but I’m quite shocked that they’re seemingly getting rid of so many students after year 9. It just appears that they’re happy to take the government funding until

they can get someone ‘better’ in. If you can’t select more accurately don’t have a lower school it’s not fair on the children, families or tax payers. Maybe just get rid of WL entirely if the intake at upper school is from elsewhere. Given the current success rate from year 7 into the company what really is the point? I don’t really care where the kids were born but I’d like to see a company with a uniform style able to

dance in the British style because they’ve been trained all the way through in that style. 

[Ballet_novice]

9 hours ago, Peony said:

I don’t think anyone would argue that there should be a 100% success rate but that it should probably be better than it is currently. I wonder how many girls have even made it from year 7 into the gcse years because I think last year it’s wasn’t that many? And then just 2 years later into upper school? Other similar schools certainly assess out but do they completely replace the students? It could be argued that things like injury, motivation, health are reasons for potential drop out that are modifiable by the school. If other schools can select at 10/11 and produce dancers why can’t rbs? I used to defend rbs but I’m quite shocked that they’re seemingly getting rid of so many students after year 9. It just appears that they’re happy to take the government funding until

they can get someone ‘better’ in. If you can’t select more accurately don’t have a lower school it’s not fair on the children, families or tax payers. Maybe just get rid of WL entirely if the intake at upper school is from elsewhere. Given the current success rate from year 7 into the company what really is the point? I don’t really care where the kids were born but I’d like to see a company with a uniform style able to

dance in the British style because they’ve been trained all the way through in that style. 

I think a school have the obligation of to give place to students who best deserve it. If this means assessing out, it is part of the process. I think that the RB Company despite employing professional from many different training continue to embody at best the British style so I am not sure where your concern about Britishness come from. 

[Ballet_novice]

15 hours ago, Millicent said:

But students at WL are assessed in Feb of Y9. That means they've only had 2 years and 5 months at the school. To put the attrition rate down to not being able to properly assess talent in Y7 suggests that it becomes highly apparent between the age of 11 and 13. 

 

Assessing out at other vocational schools is very very rare compared to WL. I think most now more or less guarantee a place up to Y11. 

Probably. But I think that the quality of year 11 students at royal ballet is on average much higher than other vocational school. I have seen performance of different schools and I could see a marked difference. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

I think this is always going to be a tricky and contentious topic because inevitably, as humans, comments and opinions will be influenced by a lot of (often subjective) factors: personal or close experience (ie did own DC or friends/family have good experience at WL), where one comes from (British or overseas), and how the journey is going and/or ended up (ie did DC/friends/family get to stay at WL all 5 years, did they get upper), and personal opinion (is the class indeed better than other equivalent classes in other schools - is that in comparison to schools in the U.K. or internationally?). Ultimately for those who don’t have personal or close experience or knowledge of a school, the obvious initial way to look at a school is through the publicly or easily available statistics and info - the same way people check school and university league tables. These definitely  don’t show the whole picture but it’s a good starting point.  A good way to also get a feel about a school is to talk to people who are/been there, this I find, is the most telling but also recognising that personal experience is highly subjective.

[Anna C]

4 hours ago, Ballet_novice said:

Probably. But I think that the quality of year 11 students at royal ballet is on average much higher than other vocational school. I have seen performance of different schools and I could see a marked difference. 

I don’t think that’s a fair comment, to be honest.  Obviously we don’t know your experience/background - not that you are required to declare it here at all, but it’s your *opinion*, and as such, it is subjective (as of course are all our opinions).  
When giving our opinions, we should be mindful of who we’re actually speaking negatively about, and the “who” in this instance is 16 year old students.

 

Then there are the schools you’re comparing White Lodge yr 11s to.  ENBS doesn’t have a lower school, so you can only have seen Elmhurst, Tring Park, Hammond, and maybe YDA?  Have I missed any?

 

Leaving aside the fact that at Tring and Hammond, they don’t call themselves “Ballet Schools” because they offer a more general dance and/or theatre dance course, White Lodge gets more MDS funding than any other lower school, including Elmhurst.  Therefore, especially as the “feeder school” for RBS Upper School, they SHOULD be providing the highest standard of classical ballet training in the UK.  

 

But all this is still missing the point.  The real problem, as I see it, is twofold:

 

1. The tiny (and in some years, nonexistent) chance of completing 5 years at White Lodge AND being accepted into Upper School,

 

and 

 

2. The number of *British trained* (not British born) Upper School students to make it to graduation from RBS Upper School, without being replaced by prize-winning students trained elsewhere and taken into US for only one year, then being referred to as “trained at The Royal Ballet School”.  

[Ballet_novice]

On 16/07/2023 at 15:40, Kerfuffle said:

While  totally agree with this, in particular the final paragraph, I still feel it is a real shame that not a single British born girl got given a place this year at RBS upper school in spite of the success of principal dancers such as Yasmine Naghdi, Anna Rose O’’Sullivan and Francesca Hayward . I also have recently heard first hand just how much it costs to train in USA where so many competition winners come from. It really is almost impossible for someone from the U.K. to compete with this. ENBS is extremely popular choice  at overseas competitions as well but it still gives British dancers a chance and has an excellent company. 

May be by chance this year the British students simply were not at the level required (combination of physical characteristics, artistry, technique etc. ).  Upper school is i understand one of the three top school in the world. And to remain as such simply has to select the best worldwide. Pretty much like universities. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

11 minutes ago, Ballet_novice said:

May be by chance this year the British students simply were not at the level required (combination of physical characteristics, artistry, technique etc. ).  Upper school is i understand one of the three top school in the world. And to remain as such simply has to select the best worldwide. Pretty much like universities. 

Even putting aside whether or not a student is British, surely both upper school and WL are under the same wider RBS umbrella. It therefore won’t be unreasonable to assume that if indeed it is one of the top three schools in the world, then RBS’s upper school surely should have more students progressing on from its own lower school? If this is the case and WL students comprise a significant  % of every first year upper school  cohort, then everyone can be assured that such world class training, perhaps one of the top three in the world, is consistent across all 8 years of the school.

[Ballet_novice]

13 minutes ago, Anna C said:

I don’t think that’s a fair comment, to be honest.  Obviously we don’t know your experience/background - not that you are required to declare it here at all, but it’s your *opinion*, and as such, it is subjective (as of course are all our opinions).  
When giving our opinions, we should be mindful of who we’re actually speaking negatively about, and the “who” in this instance is 16 year old students.

 

Then there are the schools you’re comparing White Lodge yr 11s to.  ENBS doesn’t have a lower school, so you can only have seen Elmhurst, Tring Park, Hammond, and maybe YDA?  Have I missed any?

 

Leaving aside the fact that at Tring and Hammond, they don’t call themselves “Ballet Schools” because they offer a more general dance and/or theatre dance course, White Lodge gets more MDS funding than any other lower school, including Elmhurst.  Therefore, especially as the “feeder school” for RBS Upper School, they SHOULD be providing the highest standard of classical ballet training in the UK.  

 

But all this is still missing the point.  The real problem, as I see it, is twofold:

 

1. The tiny (and in some years, nonexistent) chance of completing 5 years at White Lodge AND being accepted into Upper School,

 

and 

 

2. The number of *British trained* (not British born) Upper School students to make it to graduation from RBS Upper School, without being replaced by prize-winning students trained elsewhere and taken into US for only one year, then being referred to as “trained at The Royal Ballet School”.  

Don’t understand why being a white lodge student should necessarily guarantee a spot at upper school.
 

Training offers alone is probably not sufficient. even if I had trained with the coach of Federer, I would have never become Federer - because physically I could not, mentally, coordination. Etc.

I love to sing but will never have the voice of Frank Sinatra no matter how much I train. I loved to play basketball as a teenager but i can never play in the NBA 
 

You are making an assumptions that everyone is equally capable. Which is not the case.
 

And yes this is unfortunately valid also for 16yo. And parents should be realistic in their expectations and also be mindful of guiding children towards what’s best for them. 
 

Each one of us here express his own opinion which is never an absolute truth. And I don’t pretend to possess the gift of the absolute truth. 

[Ballet_novice]

1 minute ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Even putting aside whether or not a student is British, surely both upper school and WL are under the same wider RBS umbrella. It therefore won’t be unreasonable to assume that if indeed it is one of the top three schools in the world, then RBS’s upper school surely should have more students progressing on from its own lower school? If this is the case and WL students comprise a significant  % of every first year upper school  cohort, then everyone can be assured that such world class training, perhaps one of the top three in the world, is consistent across all 8 years of the school.

Again this assumes everyone over the years develop in the same way simply because one has access to the same training. Which is not the case. Not in ballet, not in any sports, not in academics. 

[Ruby Foo]

On 21/07/2023 at 10:04, Lifeafterballet said:

I don’t think they are the wrong children, they are just too young for the schools to assess whether they have the natural facility for a career in classical ballet. It’s a rare thing and if you haven’t got it and try to force it you will hurt the child physically and mentally. We have personal experience of this. 
There are so many changes from 11 to 16, physically, mentally and emotionally that it doesn’t surprise me just how few continue to upper school. 
I am not going to be very popular here…. but maybe assessing out wasn’t a bad thing. It’s upsetting but if it’s in the best interest of the child then it’s necessary. 

Our daughter hurt herself physically and mentally to stay in her school and continue her ballet training. She knew exactly what she was doing, but not the long term implications of it.

Round peg, square hole. 
A [ short ] career in ballet is not worth that. 
 

My daughter wasn’t too young. She was in her first year in RBS Upper School when she was told by her teacher that she had a ‘very difficult body for Classical Ballet’ due to her hips. She had previously been at WL for 3 years. The Upper School physio spoke to me and agreed that her hips were very difficult.

Later that same year she injured her hip (large labrel tear) and wasn’t given enough rest. We now know, through speaking to a top consultant she needed at least 3 months rest to have any chance of recovery. 
In 2nd year Upper School she danced through the pain and fell behind. I was told by her teacher to teach her at home. 

She was assessed out in 2nd year leaving with 1 A level and no degree which she had worked on for 2 years.

She has now given up dancing as her labral tear enlarged during 2nd year (3d mri done privately, not at school)

She was not physically assessed from WL to Upper School other than in class.

 

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, Ballet_novice said:

May be by chance this year the British students simply were not at the level required (combination of physical characteristics, artistry, technique etc. ).  Upper school is i understand one of the three top school in the world. And to remain as such simply has to select the best worldwide. Pretty much like universities. 

My daughter graduated from Oxbridge this year.  To do so, she had to be accepted into 1st year, pass her 1st year exams which let her progress into Final Honours School, then, 2 years later, pass her Finals, and graduate alongside students from all over the world, but the majority were educated in the UK.
 

She did not get assessed out 2/3rds of the way through the course, to be replaced by a prize-winner from Harvard or Yale who did one year.

 

That’s the difference.  

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, Ballet_novice said:

Don’t understand why being a white lodge student should necessarily guarantee a spot at upper school.

I never said that.  However, there’s a middle ground between all White Lodge students being guaranteed a spot at US, and (in some years), NO White Lodge students (especially girls) making it into US.  

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

After various reports about this thread we have decided to rest it for a few days until we can get it back on course to discussing the graduates, not those who are still at the school, and the merits (or otherwise) of the RBS and other schools.  

 

And before anyone accuses us of clamping down, suppressing discussion, etc....the thread is being suspended because we are listening to our members.  We didn't just decide to do it.  AUP has not been breached by anyone, but the thread has veered off course and is becoming very negative.  

 

Thank you for your understanding.