Fun and Games with ROH Package Booking

[San Perregrino]

4 hours ago, penelopesimpson said:

Err, then why read it?  It might have started about Opera but actually relates to the Friends system that operates across ballet and opera.  Shutting down topics of debate because you personally aren’t interested seems somewhat OTT 

 

Err, because I'm not clairvoyant and have to read something to know what it says. 

 

Being relatively new to BalletCoForum and the world of dance and dancers I naively thought I'd only be reading things about dance and dancers in the forum topics.  My mistake.  I now know that a thread can meander anywhere.  And, re Kaufman, he/she could have been a visiting dancer alongside Hallberg in the coming season in a ballet called Fidelio for all I knew so I read on. 

 

I am interested in booking a ballet package and so read the thread for information on ballet packages only to find the comments pertained to problems getting tickets for an opera hence my frustration.   Any experience you have of booking ballet packages that members are happy to share will be appreciated.

 

In my experience, be it ballet, sport, opera, Madonna, Kylie, Sir Elton John or Sir Ian McKellen, or any other popular performance anywhere around the world there are more bums than seats and I have had my fair share of disappointments.  No ticketing system can satisfy every demand for tickets and someone will miss out.  Win some, lose some but I keep checking for returns and often get rewarded.  

 

I'll end on another happy note, I do like Beethoven's music and your flagging 'Fidelio' up as a 'hot' ticket may be fortuitous being perhaps the encouragement I need to get out of my comfort zone and give Kaufman a whirl.  I'll try for a ticket. Thank you.

[bridiem]

4 minutes ago, prs59 said:

Being relatively new to BalletCoForum and the world of dance and dancers I naively thought I'd only be reading things about dance and dancers in the forum topics.  My mistake.  I now know that a thread can meander anywhere.

 

Yes, but only up to a point (as you will discover the longer you use the forum). Threads can indeed can diverge to include a range of comments and thoughts, which can be very interesting and valuable. But if a thread is moving too far away from its stated topic, the moderators (or anyone else) may issue a polite reminder and suggest (or start) a new thread (and the mods may move some of the comments across if relevant) so that the new discussion can continue. But since the topic of this thread is package booking, it hasn't in fact 'meandered' anywhere.

[Lizbie1]

I'll probably shut up on this topic now, but I wonder whether ROH monitors for suspicious buying patterns (e.g. if a Friend bought lots of tickets for the most popular shows only). You'd certainly hope so, but I wonder whether their rather creaky booking application is up to the job of allowing this.

[penelopesimpson]

Well, prs59  I can say you are unlikely to be disappointed by Kaufmann.  I have seen him twice now, on both occasions spending an obscene amount of money but the experience was so worth it, even with an opera like Forza which, frankly, I think is a bit of a mess.  His Othello when he made his debut in this role at ROH was really something and the tension and excitement in the house was palpable.

 

As for booking packages there is really not much to know.  Unless you are a Friend, they usually go on sale to the General Public a few days before General Booking opens.  They are a way of getting a little bit of money off your tickets if you are a frequent visitor.  You will see on the Packages page that there are different types - ROH recommends or Design Your Own.  I use the mix and match ballet and opera which has the least discount but is still worth having.  Until recently, we used to get champagne and programme vouchers as well, but the best I have managed this time around is a voucher for one ice cream!

 

I hope this was helpful.

 

*Remainder of post hidden by Moderators as it refers to a hidden post* - Balletcoforum Moderators

[JNC]

I have received a reply from ROH re this subject - have copied and pasted below:

 

”Fidelio is one of the undoubted highlights of our Season. Starring Jonas Kaufmann and performed under Tony Pappano’s expert baton for a short run over six performances, there is inevitably huge demand for a very limited number of seats. Within this context we have done all we can to ensure that we are as fair as possible to those who support the Royal Opera House while welcoming new audiences. However, unfortunately it is inevitable that some people will be disappointed. 

There are, however, still tickets available through our weekly Friday Rush ticketing scheme which ensures members of the public have access to our most popular productions every season at affordable prices. We would also encourage customers to keep an eye on our website for any returned tickets which will be put straight back on sale should any existing ticket holders be unable to attend.

Best regards and I do hope you will be able to attend.”

 

I’ve removed the name of the person who contacted me but it was the Customer Services Manager. 

 

This is a very ‘PR’ statement - neither confirming nor denying anything. I’m still waiting for answers on: 

 

Firstly, if it’s true Fidelio is sold out - @penelopesimpson I know you have confirmed this but ROH have clearly refused to confirm this to me in written form, why the uncertainty to reveal actual facts indicates they know they’ve made a mistake here/bad press may come their way!

 

Secondly, I asked about their policy (or if one exists) about whether tickets are held back for the general public on general booking day, and if so what proportion/number. This question has been completely ignored. 

 

Thirdly, not necessarily a question but I pointed out nowhere on their website does it say there is a chance productions could sell out to friends. Again, this point has been ignored. 

 

Fourthly, I asked whether there had been an allocation of tickets held back for students at least. There Young ROH page indicates that they will/should - “Ten Slips and Standing tickets for every single main-stage performance at face value (usually £4–£9)” - https://www.roh.org.uk/for/rohstudents/whats-in-it-for-me - again this point was unanswered and ignored. 

 

This is a completely unsatisfactory response. If you have sold out to friends at least come clean about it. How have they done ‘all they can to be fair’? And to finish with a ‘I do hope you are able to attend’ - how?! I can’t waste every minute of the day checking the website for returns (which would likely be out of my price range anyway!) - and if the whole house sold out like this Friday Rush is going to be near enough impossible for me (and I also have a job which means like most people I can’t necessarily guarantee be on the ROH website at 12pm on any given Friday!!). 

 

I was already disappointed but now I’m angry too. If you’ve implemented a new policy at least be transparent about it and explain why, so I can try to understand and try to work with whatever policy it is going forward. To send me a message filled with obvious statements (Fidelio is very popular...!) and obfuscating what is going on and not giving clear answers to the questions I have is not the way to regain some affection and respect - it wouldn’t have absolved them for this decision/situation which just reeks of unfairness and elitism but a clear, open response answering my questions and saying that concerns would be fed back would have gone a long way to repairing my respect for this organisation. Customer service matters. 

 

As it stands the way I support the ROH will change. I still fully intend to go and enjoy the Royal Ballet (I’m not cutting off my nose to spite my face!), but buying more tickets than I need to to help sales (for example I would have really only gone to one Manon as it’s so recent but will have ended up going to 3), buying books/DVDs from their shop rather than cheaper on amazon, and other extras such as buying programmes and ice cream and the occasional drink (yes I do like reading the articles and the pictures too but I pretty religiously used to get one every time which isn’t necessary, as I also considered it extra income for ROH, I will certainly be cutting back now)...oh and I was seriously considering being a Friend next year. This has (ironically) put me off that entirely and I will save the money I would have spent on that either for the Royal Ballet or for other arts/theatres. Perhaps this sounds petty which genuinely isn’t my intention, I know what I spend is only a pittance to them, I only mean to say I used to be quite happy spending extra money in ROH as I considered it something of a contribution (yes I got something in return but I liked to express some support and of course they have profit margins - now I’ll just buy the ticket!). 

 

I know it’s difficult to express the above in words without coming across as melodramatic/petty and so on but I think I wanted to say it because ultimately I do feel very shocked and upset by this direction ROH is taking, which will further exclude the very people it claims it tries to encourage (those new to ballet/opera, those who struggle with higher ticket prices and more). Not only am I now increasingly priced out of opera, I don’t even have a chance to buy a ticket in the first place! (There are other places to see opera I know but I’m sure most will take my point - ROH is the premier opera venue in the U.K.) 

 

Sorry this post has ended up being rather long and I hope it doesn’t come across too ranting, more just my frustration at the situation and a request for ROH to come clean over their policies/responsibilities to the general public, as well as to reverse this direction towards a narrower, more financially able, audience. 

 

(Yes I know some friends have limited financial means and prioritise but generally speaking I think we can accept the average income of friends is probably much higher than the general population. And I again repeat I take no issue with friends or the concept of friends, rather this particular situation, similar to La Forza, which means no or very limited tickets available to the general public.) 

[bridiem]

What a load of flannel. No wonder you're angry/upset, JNC. I hope you will persist in trying to get a proper answer from the ROH.

[Anna C]

26 minutes ago, JNC said:

“we have done all we can to ensure that we are as fair as possible to those who support the Royal Opera House while welcoming new audiences.”

 

The former, absolutely.  I’m utterly bemused by the latter - how is selling the whole run to existing Friends “welcoming new audiences”?  What a bizarre statement. 

[Dawnstar]

45 minutes ago, JNC said:

(Yes I know some friends have limited financial means and prioritise but generally speaking I think we can accept the average income of friends is probably much higher than the general population.) 

 

I only wish mine was but can assure you that it is instead considerably below the national average! I decided to give the Friends scheme a go this year to see if it was worth it but thus far I'm sitting on the fence. The ballet package booking, on the other hand, definitely is worth it. (Opera package booking I can't do as the stalls circle seats included in it are more than I can justify paying even with the discount.)

 

The email from the ROH looks like a standard template that they're presumably pinging out to anyone asking, irrespective of whether it's actually answering their questions of not.

 

Frankly I'm just grateful that I'm not keen enough on Kaufmann to want to enter the fights for tickets that happen every time he sings at the ROH.

[ninamargaret]

It's not only the ROH alienating audiences. I've supported the RSC since around the mid 60s. You may have read that they have cancelled,BP's sponsorship, which was used to allow,16-25 year olds,tickets for £5. According to the RSC this is,because they have listened to their young audiences and consider that BP's sponsorship is a barrier to their younger audiences. I have cancelled my Patrons membership,roughly equivalent to Friends, as it seems that as an elderly theatre goer I am no longer valued or wanted. I am not really,wanted at the ROH unless I can pay huge sums for a high level Friends membership. Can see the day coming when theatres only want young, well heeled audiences.

 

 

 

[Dawnstar]

1 hour ago, ninamargaret said:

I have cancelled my Patrons membership,roughly equivalent to Friends, as it seems that as an elderly theatre goer I am no longer valued or wanted. 

 

 

I sometimes feel like that, when I read about opera companies' constant desire for new audiences, and I'm 34, which is hardly old! Though having first gone to the ROH just before I turned 19 I certainly don't come under the new audience statistic 16 seasons later. Depressing to feel you're past it in your mid 30s! As for the RSC & BP, given theatre companies seem to be always in search of money their decision baffles me.

[Geoff]

8 hours ago, JNC said:

This is a completely unsatisfactory response.

 

Indeed. Hope you write back. A couple of suggestions if you do:

 

* Having let off steam here - quite right too! we should all be furious about this sort of typing - I suggest calm forensic questioning for your official note of reply, eg “Thank you for your response. It appears you overlooked a few of my questions. I would be grateful if these could also be replied to. To repeat...”

 

* And then restate the unanswered questions as simply and clearly as possible.

 

* Don’t fall into a trap about the words “sold out”: as the Friday Rush seats are not yet sold, the house is not yet “sold out”, even if it (probably) is in the sense you mean. 

 

* Don’t forget to ask the obvious follow-up to their point about “huge demand”. Given they anticipated “huge demand”, did they consider limiting the number of seats sold (as they do elsewhere), either for an initial limited period (as they do elsewhere) or overall (as they also do)? And if not, why not?

 

* Similarly you might like to ask them what they are going to do about the seats available on secondary sites, given the official statements by ROH and Alex Beard at the time of Forza.

 

Good luck with this and keep us posted. If they send back more waffle, copy it here, so it can be drawn to the attention of the ROH bosses.

[JohnS]

Good luck JNC in getting a response.

 

I’m afraid the Royal Opera House did not reply to similar questions about Forza, either on its News pages or when sending emails.

 

The Forza thread included many comments/questions which were not answered:

https://www.roh.org.uk/news/la-forza-del-destino-the-royal-opera-houses-position-on-viagogo

 

I’d asked some questions and given the lack of any response  followed up with a summary: 

Is there a requirement to ensure 20% of tickets are available for purchase when general booking opens for each performance? Or is this an aggregated target where an average is taken over a booking period?

What %age of tickets were available for general booking for the 4 Netrebko/Kaufmann performances?

Why was no restriction put on ticket purchases for Patrons/Friends?

What are you doing to take action against anyone who has put up tickets for resale on secondary sites?

And why do you use ticket agents?

 

I concluded that without a proper response to these questions, the prompt news release and video clip following the Forza Viagogo shenanigans would count for little.  I also thought that the questions posed should have been anticipated and answered in the Royal Opera House’s initial news bulletin.  

 

It seems to me that the Royal Opera House has not learned lessons from its handling of Forza and we have pretty much a repeat performance for Fidelio.

 

Or perhaps one lesson learned was to relegate News and the forum it presented for encouraging comment, asking questions, or making criticisms?

[Geoff]

24 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Or perhaps one lesson learned was to relegate News and the forum it presented for encouraging comment, asking questions, or making criticisms?

 

Ha! ROH lauded the “professionalism” of the sadly missed Lucy Sinclair. As she had spent the bulk of her previous working life at the BBC - a place I know well - I fear that some of that organisation’s mannerisms may have been transferred to Covent Garden. Pity if so: the series W1A was not a comedy, everything was drawn from real life. Including the lying, the censorship and the focus on corridor politics rather than honouring those who pay. 

[JNC]

Thanks all for the supportive comments.

 

@Geoff I fully intend to go back to them, and your suggestions are very helpful. Last time I sent my questions in paragraphs so perhaps it was easier for them to overlook. This time I intend to clearly separate out each question. To be honest I don’t expect I’ll get much of a different reply (I’m half expecting I may get the exact same response!) but at least I’ve made my point. I’m not sure what I can do beyond that, I’m hoping that like with La Forza the press may catch on to it, and at the very least I hope the Arts Council will. 

 

@JohnS- I take it your post means ROH never replied to your questions? Would be interested to see their response as the questions are somewhat similar if they did reply. Sadly this time it seems they were actively seeking a ‘La Forza’ situation as it were, with no regard to the fact that non friends (including people who travel domestically and internationally for these things) may have liked the opportunity to see one of the most lauded voices in Opera currently. 

 

I will keep you posted! 

 

I wonder what the reaction will be on general booking day...

[JohnS]

6 minutes ago, JNC said:

- I take it your post means ROH never replied to your questions?

 

Not just my questions - lots of questions on the Forza news page remain unanswered and I’m afraid I never received a response to email follow ups.

[JNC]

37 minutes ago, JohnS said:

 

Not just my questions - lots of questions on the Forza news page remain unanswered and I’m afraid I never received a response to email follow ups.

 

Well that’s very disheartening isn’t it. 

 

I did think La Forza probably had something to do with the comments on the website being dropped for the new design. 

 

That’s the thing that gets me about this - of course the actual situation itself is bad enough (no tickets for the general public) but this is compounded by a refusal to be transparent about policies too and answer customer complaints/questions. 

[Richard LH]

11 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

I decided to give the Friends scheme a go this year to see if it was worth it but thus far I'm sitting on the fence. The ballet package booking, on the other hand, definitely is worth it.

 

Although the two usefully go together in that being a Friend enables you to package-book in advance of the general package bookings. For regular attendees of opera and/or ballet, it seems to me that  the cost of being a Friend (£105) can be recouped pretty quickly just in terms of the larger choice of seats (including less expensive seats) at an earlier stage, particularity when combined with the earlier package discount bookings.   

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, JNC said:

Thanks all for the supportive comments.

 

@Geoff I fully intend to go back to them, and your suggestions are very helpful. Last time I sent my questions in paragraphs so perhaps it was easier for them to overlook. This time I intend to clearly separate out each question. To be honest I don’t expect I’ll get much of a different reply (I’m half expecting I may get the exact same response!) but at least I’ve made my point. I’m not sure what I can do beyond that, I’m hoping that like with La Forza the press may catch on to it, and at the very least I hope the Arts Council will. 

 

@JohnS- I take it your post means ROH never replied to your questions? Would be interested to see their response as the questions are somewhat similar if they did reply. Sadly this time it seems they were actively seeking a ‘La Forza’ situation as it were, with no regard to the fact that non friends (including people who travel domestically and internationally for these things) may have liked the opportunity to see one of the most lauded voices in Opera currently. 

 

I will keep you posted! 

 

I wonder what the reaction will be on general booking day...

 

If you get no or an unsatisfactory response, maybe you email Alex Beard direct as a number of us did last year (and he replied)? His email address is Alex.Beard@roh.org.uk

[JNC]

4 minutes ago, bridiem said:

 

If you get no or an unsatisfactory response, maybe you email Alex Beard direct as a number of us did last year (and he replied)? His email address is Alex.Beard@roh.org.uk

 

Thanks! I shouldn’t have to ‘take it to the top’ but if my next email doesn’t get a satisfactory reply I may just! 

[Dawnstar]

2 hours ago, Richard LH said:

 

Although the two usefully go together in that being a Friend enables you to package-book in advance of the general package bookings. For regular attendees of opera and/or ballet, it seems to me that  the cost of being a Friend (£105) can be recouped pretty quickly just in terms of the larger choice of seats (including less expensive seats) at an earlier stage, particularity when combined with the earlier package discount bookings.   

 

The package booking doesn't include the less expensive seats though, so I've actually ended up mostly buying more expensive seats this season than I have previously (though it's hard to do a direct comparison as it's only in the last year that I've been buying ballet tickets as well as opera ones).

[Richard LH]

1 hour ago, Dawnstar said:

 

The package booking doesn't include the less expensive seats though, so I've actually ended up mostly buying more expensive seats this season than I have previously (though it's hard to do a direct comparison as it's only in the last year that I've been buying ballet tickets as well as opera ones).

True, as far as the cheapest Amphi seating is concerned (where discounts are less in any event, either 5, 10% or 12%), but as far as I can make out currently you can pretty much select packages from seats in all the pricing ranges in the Orchestra Stalls or the Stalls Circle (with discounts of 10%, 18% or 20%).

(My disclaimer in joining this discussion is that I am not an opera goer so I am only really looking at options for buying ballet tickets). 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Richard LH

[penelopesimpson]

This is called the power of supper-luvvie Mark Rylance

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

A post on the thread has been hidden whilst the moderators consider its contents.

[JohnS]

4 hours ago, bridiem said:

 

If you get no or an unsatisfactory response, maybe you email Alex Beard direct as a number of us did last year (and he replied)? His email address is Alex.Beard@roh.org.uk

 

I’m afraid I’ve tried that option but without any success although I do recall some people had reported good responses.  I very rarely email Kevin O’Hare and have been very pleased with his response.

[capybara]

I have had very courteous responses from Alex Beard, Customer Services and sections of the ROH which have been asked by Customer Services to get back to me. In no case did I feel that any of the issues I raised had been ignored. I have a feeling that one is more likely to receive a 'generalised' response to a long missive, so I have gone for short and sharp on each occasion.

[penelopesimpson]

Capybara, I have also on a couple of occasions received courteous responses from the people you mention.  This time around, however, it is like telephoning a black hole and you can almost hear the anxiety in the voices of the people I've spoke to.  The door is open for them to get back to me; if the policy is one they stand by, I don't understand why they dont just state it and have done with it.

 

I am now pursuing other avenues.

[Dawnstar]

3 hours ago, Richard LH said:

True, as far as the cheapest Amphi seating is concerned (where discounts are less in any event, either 5, 10% or 12%), but as far as I can make out currently you can pretty much select packages from seats in all the pricing ranges in the Orchestra Stalls or the Stalls Circle (with discounts of 10%, 18% or 20%).

(My disclaimer in joining this discussion is that I am not an opera goer so I am only really looking at options for buying ballet tickets). 

 

Unfortunately that isn't the case for either the ballet or opera packages in the stalls circle. The cheaper tickets in rows B and C in the side blocks of the stalls circle, which are where I usually sit, aren't available as part of a package. The screenshot below is what is available for a randomly selected performance of Swan Lake when booking individual tickets.

[Dawnstar]

Whereas this is what is available as part of a package for the same performance. (Sorry for the double post but it won't allow me to attach to screenshots to one post.) Therefore while I'm getting a discount for package booking it's a discount on higher priced tickets than I'd usually buy so I'm actually spending more! In fact, because the cheaper stalls circle tickets aren't included, I've ended up booking the cheapest stalls tickets instead as there's not much price difference between cheapest stalls and not-cheapest stalls circle.

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Dawnstar

[Richard LH]

Thanks for pointing out these differences Dawnstar.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Richard LH

[Geoff]

7 hours ago, Richard LH said:

Thanks for pointing out these differences Dawnstar.

 

Something similar applies when booking packages in the Amphitheatre: one gets a discount but on higher priced seats.

[JNC]

Just to report back a small (positive!) update - 

 

for the student booking today they had kept to their promise to ensure that some tickets were available. A very small number and it doesn’t quite seem to be the: 

• Ten Slips and Standing tickets for every single main-stage performance at face value (usually £4–£9)
• https://www.roh.org.uk/for/rohstudents/whats-in-it-for-me

they quote on their website (as in the prices were £22!) but I presume they must have kept some these back otherwise friends would certainly have bought these excellent value tickets. There were a very small number of SCS tickets available as well as some (seated) in the upper slips. 

 

This to me is a small glimmer of hope that all is not lost and just perhaps there may be some tickets available tomorrow (although I imagine not considering @penelopesimpson’s conversation with the box office and my very elusive reply from ROH not stating clearly that tickets would be available...)

 

I still intend to go back to ROH with the other unanswered questions above, my plan is to wait and see what happens tomorrow and then ask them after the fact how many tickets were available for the general public to buy on general booking day. That way I’m hoping I may get a clearer answer because I’m not having to predict something but rather get information after the fact. 

 

Also there seems to be a very small number of tickets available on some days - in the higher price ranges but it looks like they haven’t totally sold out yet. (Or they’ve already had returns or ROH has done something about ticket touts in the meantime.) 

Edited October 23, 2019 by JNC

[penelopesimpson]

Good to hear, JNC. I talked to a few other people yesterday who are pursuing the matter.  I thought it was important to get ROH to admit their new policy before general booking opens because otherwise I think they will just say all the tickets sold out at 0900.  I was always suspicious of the technical hitch that mysteriously hit La Forza tickets at 0900 last time around and which cleared at 0920 to reveal all the tickets had been sold.

[JNC]

27 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

Good to hear, JNC. I talked to a few other people yesterday who are pursuing the matter.  I thought it was important to get ROH to admit their new policy before general booking opens because otherwise I think they will just say all the tickets sold out at 0900.  I was always suspicious of the technical hitch that mysteriously hit La Forza tickets at 0900 last time around and which cleared at 0920 to reveal all the tickets had been sold.

 

Ah I see, that’s a fair point. I think it’s unlikely they will admit to selling out to friends due to the somewhat shady nature of it but for the spring booking season I think they may update their website accordingly to say such a thing could happen, so in a way covering themselves against future complaints.