Turnout!

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Think that gives us all hope Tabitha. Her teacher at YDA is going to have a look at her on Saturday so we will see what she says! x

[Harwel]

My son was informed by his Physio that one very famous RB prima balerina who has not long retired had far less than perfect 180 turnout, about 140 if I remember correctly.

[Vonrothbart]

I'm sure there are many pro's out there with less than 180 Harwell, not all of them have perfect feet, flexibility, etc etc.

[tabitha]

Meant to say that my friend's daughter struggled with natural turnout due to hip socket position. She auditioned at Tring a few years ago and her mother was allowed in with her during the physio assessment and was told that 150 degrees was 'enough' and the rest could be achieved with ligament stretching and 'tricks'.

[proballetdancer]

My son was informed by his Physio that one very famous RB prima balerina who has not long retired had far less than perfect 180 turnout, about 140 if I remember correctly.

 

Anecdotal at best, sorry.

[proballetdancer]

I'm not sure things are quite as stringent as Proballet suggests. Ballet is based on other attributes such as artistry and musicality, as well as physique. I have seen plenty of students at RBS White Lodge and Upper School with less than the suggested cut off of 170 degree turnout.

 

And you measured their turn out? Yes, ballet is a combination of many factors, but turn out, the essential pre requisite is not a factor that's negotiable at top level schools and institutions.

 

Please, I politely request that you don't put forward ill informed conjecture and bias as fact. It's not helpful, thank you. xx

[proballetdancer]

Meant to say that my friend's daughter struggled with natural turnout due to hip socket position. She auditioned at Tring a few years ago and her mother was allowed in with her during the physio assessment and was told that 150 degrees was 'enough' and the rest could be achieved with ligament stretching and 'tricks'.

 

Tring is a good school, which specialises in a broader range of dance disciplines. 150 degrees is fine for non top level ballet companies and schools. But Tring is not WL, RBS, POBS, SAB, Vaganova, Bolshoi academy etc or any of the companies affiliated with the schools.

 

I DID say that less than 180 is fine for other forms of dance, elite ballet is far more draconian and stringent with the basic requirements, there's too much competition and yes sadly many wonderful dancers are overlooked because they fail at the first hurdle of the perfect physique and attributes these schools demand.

 

I do appreciate, tabitha why you've made these posts, but you have misrepresented the original message and it's most unfair that you're suggesting the stringent requirements of the top tier schools are not so. Please, desist.

[tabitha]

It's not I'll informed - I know many of them personally.

 

Sorry pro Ballet but what exactly are your credentials and how do you have the authority to speak on behalf of all vocational school selection processes?

[proballetdancer]

It's not I'll informed - I know many of them personally.

 

Sorry pro Ballet but what exactly are your credentials and how do you have the authority to speak on behalf of all vocational school selection processes?

 

Please Tabitha, there's absolutely no reason to be so aggressive, especially to a new board member. That's not very welcoming and probably why actual professionals steer clear of technique boards.

 

Though, please may I be so bold as to say, if you truly believe Tring is comparable to White Lodge or that the very basic physical requirement that is de rigeur within the top tier companies and institutions is NOT a given, then I must say, no offence, you are ill informed. Deeply so.

 

Now, let's call this the end to it all and move on? 

[Petalviolet]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*can't go to bed now.

[Pups_mum]

Well I'm no expert, but I would hazard a guess that if there was some huge, fundamental issue with your DD's turnout dancer123, she wouldn't have got onto the JAs waiting list. If you look at the numbers auditioning, you will see that she is one of a select few to even get on the SWL. So many apply, they can afford to be pretty picky! I would see making the waiting list as a fairly positive sign that her basic physical make up is on the right lines at least.

Personally, at this age I would just be inclined to go with the flow and see what happens. I can see the rationale in getting an expert physio assessment in order to avoid raised hopes, but depending on where you live, an expert dance physio might not be that easy to access and it would be a great shame if your DD got put off doing something she loves.

Most ballet loving children are not going to be professional dancers, never mind elite ballet dancers in one of the world's top companies, but there is so much to be gained from dance, at whatever level it can be done. I'm of the firm opinion that provided a child is enjoying what they are doing and that the burden (time, money etc) is not too onerous for the rest of the family then take what opportunities arise and see what happens. Realism is of course sensible, but than can be dripped in as time goes on. I would worry that a negative physio assessment at this stage could go beyond bringing realism into play and instead possibly turn a little girl away from a life enhancing activity.

[proballetdancer]

You know, I dipped my toe in this water, as help to dancer123, merely suggesting that for firm and definite answers she was not getting from her teacher, she might go to a professional dance physio who could answer her questions.

 

Turn out is an essential, the full range of turn out an essential within the elite top schools and companies. I never for a moment suggested that less than full 180 degree turnout was essential across all schools, companies and dance careers.

 

I also quite fairly said that dance is there to be enjoyed by children and perhaps if you got answers from someone who could give fair, professional pragmatic advice then dancer123's daughter could concentrate on loving dance.

 

Waiting lists are all well and good, but there are thousands of children who spend their childhoods on waiting lists and it's soul destroying and as dancer123 mentioned she was not getting the answers she wanted.

 

I shall now leave these boards, as I appear to have stepped on certain people's toes, though I would say to certain people a thick skin is required to survive in dance too, 180 degree turnout or not, just saying. 

 

Thank you for your hospitality and goodbye. 

[tabitha]

Please Tabitha, there's absolutely no reason to be so aggressive, especially to a new board member. That's not very welcoming and probably why actual professionals steer clear of technique boards.

 

Though, please may I be so bold as to say, if you truly believe Tring is comparable to White Lodge or that the very basic physical requirement that is de rigeur within the top tier companies and institutions is NOT a given, then I must say, no offence, you are ill informed. Deeply so.

 

Now, let's call this the end to it all and move on? 

Umm not sure that's quite the way round I saw it. You have made some very bold statements and been very definite that success cannot be achieved without a minimum of 170 degree turnout and completely refuse to accept that there may be any exception to this, potentially destroying a 9 year old's dream in the process. You haven't explained what allows you to make such non-compromising statements and you accuse me of being "ill-informed, conjecture and bias" ....... and I'm the aggressive one?

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

I have a thick skin & have not been offended by anything you have said. Its only because her teacher keeps going on about seeing physio that set the wheels in motion, it would not have been something that would of occurred to me.Now have contact details of a good dance one so am now really interested to find out!! Its confusing as we are getting mixed messages from various teachers that she goes to.Nothing will stop my daughters love of dance & I will always encourage her & we will keep auditioning I am sure. She loves every minute of the classes she does & things we go to (its me who is lazy & cannot be bothered to trapse around sometimes). After her JA audition this year may drop a class in the week just for a rest. I am a firm believer it if its meant to be it will happen & if not there is another path she will follow. Have really appreciated all the support & advice & will keep you posted!! (if anyone is still left on this thread!!)

[Anna C]

I have a thick skin & have not been offended by anything you have said. Its only because her teacher keeps going on about seeing physio that set the wheels in motion, it would not have been something that would of occurred to me.Now have contact details of a good dance one so am now really interested to find out!! Its confusing as we are getting mixed messages from various teachers that she goes to.Nothing will stop my daughters love of dance & I will always encourage her & we will keep auditioning I am sure. She loves every minute of the classes she does & things we go to (its me who is lazy & cannot be bothered to trapse around sometimes). After her JA audition this year may drop a class in the week just for a rest. I am a firm believer it if its meant to be it will happen & if not there is another path she will follow. Have really appreciated all the support & advice & will keep you posted!! (if anyone is still left on this thread!!)

I think that's an excellent attitude to have, Dancer123. Everyone has offered great advice with the best intentions and the beauty of this forum and others like it is that we can all take as much on board as we wish. Seeing a dance physio if and when necessary is a great starting point.

 

The journey to a potential career as a pro dancer is long, winding, with so many obstacles along the way that the only way I stay sane is to take it all a term at a time. See what happens; see what the Physio says, keep posting here.

[Anna C]

You know, I dipped my toe in this water, as help to dancer123, merely suggesting that for firm and definite answers she was not getting from her teacher, she might go to a professional dance physio who could answer her questions.

 

Turn out is an essential, the full range of turn out an essential within the elite top schools and companies. I never for a moment suggested that less than full 180 degree turnout was essential across all schools, companies and dance careers.

 

I also quite fairly said that dance is there to be enjoyed by children and perhaps if you got answers from someone who could give fair, professional pragmatic advice then dancer123's daughter could concentrate on loving dance.

 

Waiting lists are all well and good, but there are thousands of children who spend their childhoods on waiting lists and it's soul destroying and as dancer123 mentioned she was not getting the answers she wanted.

 

I shall now leave these boards, as I appear to have stepped on certain people's toes, though I would say to certain people a thick skin is required to survive in dance too, 180 degree turnout or not, just saying. 

 

Thank you for your hospitality and goodbye.

 

Your point of view is appreciated and valued, proballetdancer. It would be a shame if you left. It's so beneficial to have as many opinions as possible from as many different people in the world of dance. However, when offering advice or opinions, we all have to bear in mind that other people may not like what we're saying, and may not agree with us. It's not personal.

[Kate_N]

This is a really interesting discussion. Thanks everyone! And I particularly enjoy PetalViolet and Proballetdancer as a comedy duo! And also Proballetdancer's professional point of view.

 

I think it's tricky sometimes, on messageboards where we keep a modicum of anonymity, to back up one's opinions by citing one's professional expertise & experience.

 

I could be anyone on the internet, pretending to be a performing arts university teacher! I know who I am, but I can't include my CV with each post, so there's no reason for anyone else to accept my point of view. And I know that when I speak from my professional expertise (which is not ballet, although I'm an informed amateur there) I'm convinced that my view is pretty much correct, and comes from solid expertise and experience. But I also understand that on an internet messageboard, no-one else necessarily has to accept that!

 

(Oh dear, I hope this makes sense?)

[Anna C]

Perfect sense, Kate. And it's notoriously difficult to get one's tone across accurately in writing, on a public forum. Hence things sometimes get heated and escalate where they might not when chatting face to face.

[_emeralds]

I'll be sorry to see you go, Proballetdancer. I enjoyed reading your posts and hearing your expertise on this subject. It's good to hear differing opinions. Although I've not involved myself in this particular discussion, if you do decide to return to the forum, I'd certainly be glad to hear your views.

[Flowerpot]

I too enjoyed reading your views Proballetdancer, please keep posting and giving advice.

[Vonrothbart]

This could be relevant in this "debate". I have a son who works for the BBC as an expert summariser in a particular sport. In a City with two teams, both sets of fans accuse him of being biased towards their neighbours. To cut it short, he tells it how it happens, not what they'd like to hear. Me, I'll just sit on the fence on this one, as I don't know enough.

[Petalviolet]

Three bags of wotsits.

Three whole bags of wotsits before I could get any closure on this last night.

Not even my wotsits.

DD has a very nutritious oat based after school snack today which she won't appreciate one bit.

[theother51]

If you choose to remain anonymous as is any poster's right, then you also have to accept that you can't just expect people to accept your credentials without question. And that is without differences of opinion on particular matters.

 

You will find even amongst top level teachers, coaches & physios differences of opinion.

 

I remember on another website several years ago a very helpful legal expert poster giving advice. She appeared very knowledgable. It turned out that she was not a qualified lawyer after all but some kind of legal secretary.

Edited February 23, 2017 by theother51

[Harwel]

I think it is a very important subject and very helpful to understand that for the 'elite' ballet dancer certain non negotiable elements are required but that that does not prevent others from having a dance career, even a ballet career if you accept you are not destined for RB, POB or vaganova. I think proballetdancer put her points across clearly and knowledgeably, it's just that sometimes the cold hard facts are a bit much for some to accept easily - fair enough, I for one know my ds is not destined for an 'elite' career in ballet, it doesn't mean he can't be a perfectly successful dancer, loving his work and who knows, maybe he'll end up an 'elite' teacher?!

[Harwel]

To be perfectly honest, I'm hoping that he can be the very best ballet dancer he possibly can be and then turn into a rather fabulous 'elite' contemporary dancer. NDT I have my eye on you!

[sarahw]

I think all opinions are valuable and as someone says a lot of these are grey areas. As a a Dance Mum it's invaluable to obtain the advice available here.

[Bestfootforward]

Reading through this thread I would just like to comment on what I see as some real misconceptions- firstly, that a place on SWL for RBS JA meansthat the child must have adequate turnout.

My daughter does not have enough natural turnout range to be a ballet dancer, and she has never had because as detailed in my previous post, the hip angle and depth is simply too restricted. Nevertheless, she was a RBS JA, an Elmhurst associate and won multiple RAD ballet competitions. She gained an MDS to go to vocational ballet school, and has spent several years there, passing her appraisals every year.

She is ridiculously flexible and always has been.

But this does not change the fact that she would never make a ballet dancer.

 

Do we have regrets about allowing her to go to ballet school? No, not really. She was essentially happy, loved the boarding experience, worked hard, made friends easily, and learnt a lot about independence and life skills.

However, I would disagree with the poster that suggested that children at vocational school get a better education- this is certainly not the case, but that's for a different thread entirely.

 

I would also disagree with the people who suggest that a child auditioning for the RBS JA scheme or similar are just dancing as a hobby. In my experience of my daughter and like minded friends, once the child gets that far they are normally showing enough potential for their teacher to suggest auditioning, then comes the hope and the waiting, and if you are lucky the offer of a place and the euphoria that follows. Suddenly the child is thrust into the world of fairly serious ballet tuition, large sums of money are invested and family life alters dramatically for most as parents travel long distances to get their child to class. New friends are made, siblings are affected, weekends disappear into a haze of journeys and snatched meals.

For most kids and their parents, this is a happy, heady and exciting time, but as audition time for year 11 approaches, you realise that it's a long time since ballet and dance have been simply a hobby.

I have witnessed many a child (encouraged by an over keen parent ) being bitterly disappointed because no one has ever been honest with them about their limitations- whether these be flexibility, turnout, feet etc. I regarded us as fortunate because we had a teacher who was honest at the outset, and we went into this world with our eyes open.

 

As many have said, ballet is not the be all and end all of dance entertainment. Unfortunately once you are at ballet school, you are surrounded by people who that think it is and for those with limitations, this can be soul destroying.

However, I've learnt that all vocational schools are not the same; that there are schools that nurture and value each child for themselves, and this gives the child a million times more help and confidence than blinkered ballet teachers screaming about turnout constantly. For this I am eternally grateful!

 

Oh and my daughter also had clicky hips at both her baby checks and needed an ultrasound to exclude hip dislocation. Never in a million years were her hips ever going to dislocate!!! So clearly clicky hips and flat turnout do not necessarily go hand in hand. Most hips clicky during the newborn period are simply due to tendons making a snapping noise as the hips are examined

Edited February 23, 2017 by Bestfootforward

[Legseleven]

I couldn't agree more that a teacher who is realistic about a child's chances of success (whilst not overly negative either!) is a real plus. We have seen many children who are undoubtedly talented and lovely to watch who have heard nothing but praise and encouragement that talent and a love of dance will be enough for them to make it as a professional ballet dancer, despite a lack of musicality or turnout or limitations of physique. I don't think any child should be discouraged from following their dreams but I also think that someone (and it will usually have to be the teacher as parents, with the best will in the world, can't usually be objective) should always sound a gentle note of caution in terms of the strict requirements for ballet, most of which a child is either born with or not.

There are other types of dance for which the requirements are not so strict, but it does tend to be ballet which at least initially captures a child's heart.

[coniger]

This is going to sound really stupid but does a boy need the same level of turnout as a girl? I have been reading this thread with interest and I'm curious if it's the same for a boy. Sorry for my ignorance!!!

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Bestfootforward how did you find out that your DD did not have the right turnout.Was that whilst being a JA?

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Yes I wanted to go into it with my eyes open & know whether its something DD can realistically pursue or enjoy more as a hobby

[TYR]

Coniger: yes.

[Bestfootforward]

Hi Dancer123

In answer to your question, it was always an issue. We knew before she started JAs, as she has a very clued up teacher at home that told us it may prevent her getting in to JAs and vocational school etc, but because she had so many other strengths it was worth trying...so we did, and she always succeeded and got a place. However we never harboured a dream that she would be a ballet dancer. We just went with the flow knowing that a strong ballet foundation would stand her in the best stead for a dance career or MT career. In fairness, she was so strong at the other dance styles too and she loved them so restricting herself to ballet would have been the wrong thing anyway.

 

At JAs the teacher loved her, particularly for her dance quality and performance skills and she was always heralded as the one to watch, but always with the acknowledgement that the turnout may well be an issue for ballet as a career.

 

As I say, we never had any false hope or illlusion, and she has always known the score.