Physique requirements prohibit talented dancers?

[Harwel]

Perhaps the more pertinent comparison is not between sprinters, but between sprinters and long distance runners. Completely different physical make up on the whole, both amazing runners, just different. You can spot a sprinter as opposed to a marathon runner, even though they may be entirely different sizes within the specified group, physical structure dictates the kind of runner they will be.

[meadowblythe]

Unless the talk has changed dramatically, I think the Tring talk is more meant to identify the "ideal" body shape, and also be a gentle let down for those who may not receive an offer, rather than a hard and fast rule.

 

So many things change during our children's journey I would hesitate to change emphasis to contemporary if it is purely on the grounds of one talk or audition, particularly before upper school age.

[Pups_mum]

It's a tricky thing to broach with youngsters. My DD actually found it kind of comforting, though still upsetting, to figure out that her physique was an issue. "Your'e the wrong shape" can be easier to hear than "you're not good enough" I suppose. But at the same time, one must be very careful that "wrong shape" isn't perceived as "not thin enough..."

And there's a fine line between being realistic and crushing dreams  at an early age!

One thing that I found hard to handle was that lots of well meaning people would tell DD stories of dancers who had become hugely successful despite not having the ideal physique, and I would then have to point out that those stories were true, but that the dancers in question did tend to be absolutely amazing in other ways, which might not quite be the same for her! And the same well meaning individuals would also tell her how things could totally change as she got older. Also true, but incredibly unlikely if you look at just about every woman in our family the last 3 or 4 generations.

Ultimately, I think that those who love to dance will dance somehow, whatever their physique is like, whether that is professionally, or as an amateur. For me, I think the key things are about learning to accept the things that you cannot change, and realising that there are many other ways to be a "successful" dancer than being a full time professional in a classical ballet company. For a young child, these are hard concepts and the realisation that physique does matter can be painful, but I think it does get easier as they mature. The tough job for us is to find that line, and stay encouraging and cheerful, even when we are probably hurting nearly as much as they are.

[HAIRBELLES]

I'm not sure if this link will work ....I came across this rather controversial ballet blog whilst looking for something else: it touches on some of the comments in this thread about other sports .

http://haglundsheel.typepad.com/haglunds_heel/

[HAIRBELLES]

Sorry folks it's posted the wrong article it was entitled

The fat truth about the skinny in Ballet

Posting on my phone I will try and post correct one later

[Jan McNulty]

http://haglundsheel.typepad.com/haglunds_heel/2014/08/the-fat-truth-about-the-skinny-in-ballet.html

[sarahw]

Crikey - that covers a few issues!!

[HAIRBELLES]

Thanks Janet

Doesn't it just sarahw

[amos73]

I've seen the Bolshoi height weight charts before so not surprised by that, but did find the open slagging off of Misty Copeland a bit surprising! 

[aileen]

Well, this particular blogger has plenty of form when it comes to slagging off dancers. MC is not alone.

[taxi4ballet]

Strewth.

[Moomin]

It's intereting though that ballet really contains both the equivalent of long distance running (adage) and sprinting (allegro) and different body shapes are suited to each. Personally like the shorter, more in proportion, more muscular dancers as they tend to be more exciting in allegro. I don't want to see a grand jets 2 inches off the floor, even if it is in over splits! It may be some peoples' aesthetic to see dancers whose BMI is in the 'underweight' or 'very underweight' category, but not mine. There is Middle ground between seriously underweight and overweight! Regarding the russian weight charts, in one of the documentaries about the russian schools the girls were saying how food was limited and they were always hungry. They were looking forward to eating what they wanted after their career- so maybe it's not so 'natural' after all

[Kate_N]

I've seen Ms Copeland dance with the ABT at the Kennedy Center, in classical variations. I have to say, I wasn't blown away. 

[balletbean]

There is Middle ground between seriously underweight and overweight! Regarding the russian weight charts, in one of the documentaries about the russian schools the girls were saying how food was limited and they were always hungry. They were looking forward to eating what they wanted after their career- so maybe it's not so 'natural' after all

I've seen a video (maybe the same one). The girls had such sadness in their eyes. As a mother it was heart wrenching to watch. I just wanted to give them all a great big hug. I'm sure this will affect them not just now but later on in their life and even in their performance. No doubt fantastic technicians in the genre but 'dead' on the inside and lacking passion in their performance as they grow older and enter the industry. What damage are these schools inflicting onto these children just for the sake of the art? Success maybe but at what cost!

[amos73]

I've not seen her dance but still found it a bit rude the way they were talking about her!

 

I've seen Ms Copeland dance with the ABT at the Kennedy Center, in classical variations. I have to say, I wasn't blown away. 

[alison]

I saw her at Sadler's Wells back when she was a soloist.  I liked her well enough, but it wasn't anything Classical she was dancing, so I was unable to assess her potential as a principal.

[JoJo]

My daughter has just graduated from the Bolshoi Ballet Academy in Moscow after four years of training.  If there were any children with "sadness in their eyes" at the Academy, it isn't through lack of food options!  The canteen at the Academy provides plenty of options and there are a remarkably large number of supermarkets within easy walking distance that you'd be hard not to find a handful of students topping up their supplies at any one point in the day.

 

The weight chart always causes much interest.  My daughter shared it and commented on this in her blog post "Top tips for international students wanting to train at the Bolshoi Ballet Academy",  https://talaleeturton.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/top-tips-for-international-students-thinking-about-training-at-the-bolshoi-ballet-academy/ , which has been and is still being widely read and commented on.  

 

The presentation and commentary on the weight chart in the Haglund's Heel blog post do not represent the practice and reality of how it is used at the Academy. My daughter's experience is that it is used as a guide.  There are no differences in weight expectations for Russians and internationals at the Academy.  

 

There are weigh-ins twice-a-year and students are advised if they are too heavy or too light.  Those where there is a cause for concern are given very "Russian-style" advice (i.e. direct) to lose weight or put weight on and those advised to gain weight are carefully monitored.  Teachers will tell students in class if they need to lose or gain weight; it is the Russian way to be very direct.  Marks can be lost in exams if you are underweight or overweight.  My daughter has witnessed examples of both.   

 

The weight chart is very much a guide though.  All female students participate in duet (pas-de-deux) regardless of whether they are over the ideal weight as indicated on the weight chart.  I have observed my daughter's duet classes when visiting her in Moscow and all female students are actively encouraged to participate even though many will not fit within the weight chart.  

 

Size and shape is very important at the Academy but what is more important is technique and particularly turnout, alongside facility and good feet, of course.  That is the real focus of the classes that my daughter has participated in for the last four years.  And that's what has helped her find work professionally. In terms of the point of the original post, I do think, based on my daughter's audition experiences, you need a good mix of all in order to successfully gain employment in a classical company upon graduation. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by JoJo

[lartiste]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-3765557/Passion-deux-explosive-chemistry-Royal-Ballet-superstar-Natalia-Osipova-bad-boy-dancer-Sergei-Polunin.html

 

In this article the RB principal Natalia Osipova discusses her dietary requirements for maintaining her lithe frame and in a nutshell 'salads' seems to cover it. I remember reading this article in September and being quite shocked/surprised that this constituted the staple of a diet. I mean this not as a criticism - Osipova is and has always been a source of inspiration to me.

 

Though I think Balanchine has a lot to answer for in the changing demands on - women especially - physiques in ballet. I could be wrong and don't object to being corrected but the 1800s dancers were a far different physique than what is demanded today and I'm not sure that it's necessarily a good thing the current physique that's being bandied about as the norm looks like osteoporosis waiting to happen.

 

I think Tamara Rojo made an interesting comment when she stated in an interview ' Just a beautiful body? That bores me to death'

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/dance/11137955/Tamara-Rojo-Just-a-beautiful-body-That-bores-me-to-death.html

[Lisa O`Brien]

My daughter has just graduated from the Bolshoi Ballet Academy in Moscow after four years of training.  If there were any children with "sadness in their eyes" at the Academy, it isn't through lack of food options!  The canteen at the Academy provides plenty of options and there are a remarkably large number of supermarkets within easy walking distance that you'd be hard not to find a handful of students topping up their supplies at any one point in the day.

 

The weight chart always causes much interest.  My daughter shared it and commented on this in her blog post "Top tips for international students wanting to train at the Bolshoi Ballet Academy",  https://talaleeturton.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/top-tips-for-international-students-thinking-about-training-at-the-bolshoi-ballet-academy/ , which has been and is still being widely read and commented on.  

 

The presentation and commentary on the weight chart in the Haglund's Heel blog post do not represent the practice and reality of how it is used at the Academy. My daughter's experience is that it is used as a guide.  There are no differences in weight expectations for Russians and internationals at the Academy.  

 

There are weigh-ins twice-a-year and students are advised if they are too heavy or too light.  Those where there is a cause for concern are given very "Russian-style" advice (i.e. direct) to lose weight or put weight on and those advised to gain weight are carefully monitored.  Teachers will tell students in class if they need to lose or gain weight; it is the Russian way to be very direct.  Marks can be lost in exams if you are underweight or overweight.  My daughter has witnessed examples of both.   

 

The weight chart is very much a guide though.  All female students participate in duet (pas-de-deux) regardless of whether they are over the ideal weight as indicated on the weight chart.  I have observed my daughter's duet classes when visiting her in Moscow and all female students are actively encouraged to participate even though many will not fit within the weight chart.  

 

Size and shape is very important at the Academy but what is more important is technique and particularly turnout, alongside facility and good feet, of course.  That is the real focus of the classes that my daughter has participated in for the last four years.  And that's what has helped her find work professionally. In terms of the point of the original post, I do think, based on my daughter's audition experiences, you need a good mix of all in order to successfully gain employment in a classical company upon graduation. 

Congratulations to your daughter. I see her company are coming to Belfast in March to perform Swan Lake. Might just treat myself to a ticket !!

Edited October 14, 2016 by Lisa O`Brien

[Pas de Quatre]

Congratulations to Tala, which company is she with and are they coming to mainland UK too?

[JoJo]

Congratulations to your daughter. I see her company are coming to Belfast in March to perform Swan Lake. Might just treat myself to a ticket !!

Yes, that's right they are   I may actually nip over to see it.  Though I will get to see her in Swan Lake in Italy in December.  She will be performing it on her 21st birthday in Rome!

 

Congratulations to Tala, which company is she with and are they coming to mainland UK too?

She is with the Royal Ballet of Moscow.  No plans for England, Scotland or Wales - the Belfast show is part of a Northern Ireland/ Ireland tour.

[Pas de Quatre]

It is great to hear that all Tala's hard work has come to fruition.  What a wonderful way to celebrate her 21st!  Hopefully either that company will come to UK, or later in her career she will join a company that does.  Do keep us informed.