Brexit and the future for dancers

[Piccolo]

If you have Scottish ancestry, a grandmother, and Scotland leaves to join the EU, is it likely that it might be possible to get a Scottish passport? Does anyone know? Thanks!

[rowan]

I'm afraid that's all too hypothetical at this stage, Piccolo. I've got Scottish ancestry and I've wondered, too.

[Ian Macmillan]

A bit of calm, please.  I certainly qualify on Scottish ancestry and grannies back into the mists of time, but I can't help on passports - possibly as there won't have been Scottish ones since around 1707.

[Goldenlily17]

I think what we need to do is to consider forming an alliance with the parents of young footballers. There is a cultural divide, but the employment issues are pretty much identical and we share the Ministry of Culture and Sport

[GTL]

That sounds like a good idea, Goldenliy17.  Given the analysis of the social/ educational/ geographical/ cultural background of most of the 17+ million Leave voters who are "the majority of the nation", I think there would be more sympathy towards the plight of proper fish-and-chip-loving local aspirant footballers than (insert your own adjective) ballet dancers.

 

I remember Mr Gove as a critic on the BBC Newsnight Review arts programme early in his career. Please don't put him in charge. 

 

But perhaps it could be run from Liverpool which appears to have a great love of ballet alongside football. 

Edited June 25, 2016 by Grand Tier Left

[alison]

I think what we need to do is to consider forming an alliance with the parents of young footballers. There is a cultural divide, but the employment issues are pretty much identical and we share the Ministry of Culture and Sport

 

Interesting idea, but are they?  I haven't been following the football part of the argument, but I thought it was being argued that there would be more jobs for British footballers in the UK post-Brexit, and that this was being touted as A Good Thing?

[Yorkshire Pud]

How many political comments does it need on a doing dance thread to get it locked by a moderator? I'm guessing just one if it is made by a lower class/ uneducated/north of Watford Gap/ uncultured Brexit voter.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Yorkshire Pud

[Picturesinthefirelight]

My son tells me that to become a player in the UK if you are a non EU national you have to have a certain amount of international caps so post Brexit players like Payet who joined West Ham before he became a French team star would not qualify.

 

So mostly it will be lower league teams who won't be able to recruit from abroad hence the football community do see this as giving more opportunities to Young British players

 

(As far as a 12 year olds info is accurate)

Edited June 25, 2016 by Picturesinthefirelight

[Anna C]

How many political comments does it need on a doing dance thread to get it locked by a moderator? I'm guessing just one if it is made by a lower class/ uneducated/north of Watford Gap/ uncultured Brexit voter.

Please remember that if ANY forum member feels that a post or thread contravenes AUP or is a cause for concern, they should use the Report function as per proper forum procedure.

[Anna C]

....and a request to keep politics out of this thread as far as possible, please - especially political sniping. We've had to lock several threads recently.

 

Many thanks.

[lartiste]

Could I ask how I go about reporting a post I find superficially offensive? I would prefer to keep politics out of the thread too when I feel personally affronted by the suggestion I have only a modicum of intelligence for my political beliefs. I haven't felt this forum to be a welcoming place for a long time the tone has very much changed.

 

I used to love ballet, I regularly spent upwards of £100 on those grand tier tickets but I after some of the comments on this thread fail to see why I should support the up-and-coming dancers when we are to be treated with such disdain.

[Anna C]

I'm sorry to hear that, lartiste.

 

To report a post, there should be a very small greyed out "report" button at the bottom of each post. On my ipad the "report" is to the left of "multiquote" and "quote".

 

Just press it and the report screen should come up.

[Goldenlily17]

It is interesting to hear the view that young footballers might benefit from Brexit. However, there won't be more jobs available for young British dancers as long as dancers remain on the UK Labour Shortage list. Vacancies that might have been filled by EU dancers will simply be replaced by international dancers, so the British will continue to be disadvantaged - with the additional difficulty of not being able to apply for jobs in those useful Eastern European companies who have taken many young dancers in recent years. The argument that Brits can go to Australia, for example, doesn't really wash as Australia sends many of its best dancers here to train and work. In any event many would prefer not to be exiled the other side of the world when they could be dancing with people on their doorstep who share a Western European dance heritage

[Kat09]

It is interesting to hear the view that young footballers might benefit from Brexit. However, there won't be more jobs available for young British dancers as long as dancers remain on the UK Labour Shortage list. Vacancies that might have been filled by EU dancers will simply be replaced by international dancers, so the British will continue to be disadvantaged - with the additional difficulty of not being able to apply for jobs in those useful Eastern European companies who have taken many young dancers in recent years. The argument that Brits can go to Australia, for example, doesn't really wash as Australia sends many of its best dancers here to train and work. In any event many would prefer not to be exiled the other side of the world when they could be dancing with people on their doorstep who share a Western European dance heritage

 

Unfortunately Brits can only go to Australia if sponsored with an Arts and entertainment VISA unless lucky enough to have familial ties

[Fonty]

....and a request to keep politics out of this thread as far as possible, please - especially political sniping. We've had to lock several threads recently.

 

Many thanks.

 

If this is done, it would be helpful if the moderators could explain why threads have been locked or removed.  What one person deems to be a political comment might simply be seen as a general remark by another person.  Likewise something removed for other reasons e.g for being sexist, racist or whatever.   I hope this forum doesn't become too politicially correct.

 

Sorry to take it off topic.....

[GTL]

From the most recent comments, I can see I've upset some posters with with my post 38, for which I sincerely apologise, it was not my intention to pigeonhole anyone. As far as I am aware, the demographic analysis of the referendum vote is generally accepted, but by its very nature a generalisation.

 

To clarify, I admire anyone studying ballet seriously and sympathise with their parents who make many sacrifices in supporting them. I think the footballer/ dancer idea a good one and given the support for football and the ballet tours visiting Liverpool (which of course was pro-Remain), not to mention the very enthusiastic forum members based in there, it seems a better place to run such a thing than most.

 

I think that emphasising what ballet training has in common with football is beneficial as there is much greater understanding in this country of football than ballet. To go further, there are still, sadly, many in this country who despise ballet, either as posh and pretentious on one hand or as an intellectually inferior art on the other. I also think one has to learn from the best by training alongside them as well as competing, so I would be sorry to see our youngsters denied international experience.

 

As for my comment on Mr Gove as an arts reviewer: memories are hazy now but I seldom found myself in accord with him. That is, obviously, my personal opinion but not entirely out of place on an arts forum in that context.

 

Finally, to forestall assumptions: not everyone who lives is London is unfamiliar with or unsympathetic to the rest of the country and not everyone who has sat in a grand tier is rich. I also like fish and chips on occasion.  And please bear with my multiple edits of all this on a tablet.

[tabitha]

It is interesting to hear the view that young footballers might benefit from Brexit. However, there won't be more jobs available for young British dancers as long as dancers remain on the UK Labour Shortage list. Vacancies that might have been filled by EU dancers will simply be replaced by international dancers, so the British will continue to be disadvantaged - with the additional difficulty of not being able to apply for jobs in those useful Eastern European companies who have taken many young dancers in recent years. The argument that Brits can go to Australia, for example, doesn't really wash as Australia sends many of its best dancers here to train and work. In any event many would prefer not to be exiled the other side of the world when they could be dancing with people on their doorstep who share a Western European dance heritage

Their are large numbers of non-EU dancers in European dance companies from all over the world and these companies are very used to sorting out visas for them. I am sure that British dancers will be accommodated in the same way following exit and we don't even know what arrangements will be negotiated yet.

 

I personally know of some Japanese and American dancers in Germany who had no problems getting visas. In most people's experience, the hardest place to get a visa is the USA.

[Anna C]

If this is done, it would be helpful if the moderators could explain why threads have been locked or removed.  What one person deems to be a political comment might simply be seen as a general remark by another person.  Likewise something removed for other reasons e.g for being sexist, racist or whatever.   I hope this forum doesn't become too politicially correct.

 

Sorry to take it off topic.....

Yes, Fonty. We do usually explain why a thread is locked. Often it's fairly self explanatory, i.e. after repeated requests by a Moderator to get back on topic, for example. I think there was one example recently when a Moderator did post before locking the thread but there was a technical glitch and the post disappeared.

 

The AUP explains the forum's rules in full so if a post or thread is hidden or locked, this is almost always due to a breach of forum rules. It should be remembered that this forum is about ballet and dance, so lately threads have been locked not out of political correctness, but because they have become too political.

[Anna C]

A post in this thread has been temporarily hidden while Moderators discuss. Another post which refers to the hidden one has also been temporarily hidden.

 

Anna C

on behalf of BalletcoForum Moderators

[Goldenlily17]

Thank you Tabitha for your very positive post, and for sharing your knowledge of non-EU dancers who have been able to get visas to work in the EU without difficulty. It is important for parents of dancers, and dancers, to have as much information as possible so that we can help dispell anxieties. I do so hope British dancers will continue to work on the continent. We have so much shared dance heritage, and it is so enriching to be able to use language skills and broaden cultural horizons within Europe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

our child worries.

[LinMM]

I've just seen something on my Facebook feed .....don't know how genuinely serious....a petition to allow UK citizens to be able to have European passports if they want to!

Not sure how this would work....or even if it's possible....but may solve the problem for UK dancers wanting to work in Europe.

 

I presume it would be via one country initially but then you could travel and work freely in rest of Europe.

[GTL]

Moderators:

I haven't as yet had any personal message from you but I note that you have hidden my post at 1:22 pm yesterday afternoon, 25/06/16, the 'post 38' to which I referred in my post at 6:29 pm yesterday evening.  

I am concerned that my later post is still showing (as post 47 currently).  Read in conjunction with others, starting with lartiste's at 5:04 pm yesterday evening, it could give the impression I am apologising for things I did not actually say.

Please hide my later post while the matter is under review.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Grand Tier Left

[Kate_N]

If we join the EEA we will have freedom of movement just as we do now. 

 

As I keep saying, historically and statistically, ballet is an international art/profession. Always has been from its start. The creative industries are international. Long may they remain so - we are all human beings who live on this one earth.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Kate_N

[Goldenlily17]

As I understand that one of the flagship goals of the Brexiteers is not to sign up to the EEA, because they want to stop free movement and employment of peoples. I agree that if we had this option dancers and other creative workers would still be able to travel and work as they do now. If I have understood correctly, people who want to work in Europe have really been sacrificed by people who are determined to block EU citizens from working here. It all seems so sad, because it won't address the issue lack of jobs as we still have so many international workers. But I think we need to focus on examples of dancers from outside the EU who have got jobs in the EU and find out more about which companies welcome non EU dancers

[Melody]

Here's a link to some arts individuals and institutions, including the ROH, voicing their opinions about the effect of Brexit on the arts:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/jun/24/arts-hit-back-at-brexit-i-feel-nothing-but-rage

[sarahw]

Personally I think the main thing is not to panic. No-one knows exactly what is going to happen next. Personally I think there has been an element of scaremongering by the Remain camp during the campaign and we shouldn't take it all at face value.

 

A very worrying time for everyone...

[Anna C]

From the literature I received, there has been spin and scaremongering from BOTH sides. However, what's done is done.

 

I agree wholeheartedly re not panicking. Even if many of our politicians are running around like headless chickens, if the rest of us do the same it will escalate and nothing will have been achieved. Things will become clearer in time, nothing concrete is going to change for some while even if or when article 50 is triggered, and ballet is such a fickle and precarious career that fretting about what MAY happen in the future is a complete waste of time and energy.

[sarahw]

I agree Anna. 

 

My child will be going to vocational school in September knowing that the chances of a classical career are low. I don't feel that those chances have changed significantly in the last week.

[GTL]

I've been trawling the web in search of information on what is in store for us and have found surprisingly little that I would care to post. Here are links to two, pre-referendum from very different perspectives but I think thoughtfully written (which is not to say that I necessarily agree with the views expressed or wish to debate them here): 

this from a member of the Vote Leave board 

http://www.artsprofessional.co.uk/magazine/article/nothing-fear-leaving

and this from a Greek journalist for Aljazeera America  

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/6/is-europe-in-cultural-peril.html