British students lack motivation.....

[LinMM]

The other reference was to Carlos Acosta.....who was not brought up in our culture.....a very opposite one in fact.

[LinMM]

I'm seriously thinking of going on a writing course if continuing to post here!! As I obviously don't get across what I mean in some of my posts!!

Edited January 2, 2015 by LinMM

[John Mallinson]

No, I think it was me being a bit obtuse!

[Harwel]

I knew what you meant LinMM.

[taxi4ballet]

Perhaps the RBS does need a shake-up. If British students are still learning single pirouettes whilst Japanese students are mastering multiple fouettes then there's a problem imo. Yes, British students may catch up - if they get taken on by a company but, even if they are taken on, there's a danger that they will be restricted to the corps, perhaps not even dancing but carrying spears and stage-dressing. I've seen several British dancers really improve technically (and get opportunities in secondary and lead roles and promotions) after joining a company but this takes several years. If the RB wants dancers with all the tricks then the School should be teaching them when the students are in their very early teens. There are plenty of 13 and 14 year olds doing full variations from the classics on YouTube and they generally do them pretty well. I suspect that British students (particularly the female ones) don't enter these big international competitions much because they are just not at that level.

I'm inclined to agree with this - dd went on a course a while ago and a Japanese girl was doing triple pirouettes (en pointe). She was 9.

[FLOSS]

I think that it was Belinda Hatley who said that the real problem for British dancers was their lack of confidence. Some people find that the best way of coping with lack of confidence is not to push to be put into situations in which they are convinced they will fail It's a phenomena that can be observed in many fields not just dance training. It is understandable that the head of a training institution might choose to  interpret that sort of behaviour as evidence of a sense of entitlement.When you combine that with the

English  myth of effortless mastery of all sorts of skills and knowledge which actually require years of sweat, application and determination then you can let the institution off the hook by convincing yourself that your students have fallen for that lie and that the fault lies with the students rather than the institutions that provided their training.

 

The school has had a somewhat chequered history and has needed sorting out on a number of occasions over the years.But if Danilova was right when she said that while great dancers are born good dancers are trained by good teachers then it would seem to me that the reason why so few British dancers make it through the ranks of the company to senior positions is in part attributable to the school.But there are other factors at work.Lots of British graduates choose to work abroad because they see more opportunity to dance and develop away from Covent Garden. Those who join the company have to make their way through the company hierachy waiting their  turn and making their mark in what they are given to dance. There is nowhere for young dancers to learn  their craft by regular performances in major roles away from the glare of publicity that was once provided by the touring company.The company almost certainly can not afford to have the sort of  coaching system that the Russians have as a result, young dancers are rarely coached by major exponents of the roles that they are due to dance. As far as I know Brenda Last has never been asked to coach anyone about to dance Lise;Sibley has coached some aspirant Odette Odiles but has not been invited to do so on a regular basis.Recordings are used regularly where Russian companies use retired dancers who were outstanding in the roles that they coach.Dancers with real potential are identified early on and given their coach as a result they are always building on experience and success. Finally the company has got out of the habit of developing dancers and into the habit of recruiting from outside. Whether this has now changed will become clear when we see how the careers of dancers like Hay and Hayward develop.In the past there have been any number of young dancers who have been flavour of the month, cast in everything and then in nothing.

 

If the company is interested in developing its young dancers then it will need to modify its choice of repertory performing the Ashton works which originally created the company and gave it its style and treating some of its ballets such as Alice as the  preserve of the young, with only those roles which require mature dancers such as Alice's mother and father being danced by dancers over thirty. Only by doing this will some of the talented younger dancers have a real opportunity to make their mark.It is not as if there are no ballets in the company's repertory that would enable the company to pursue such a policy.It would no doubt do wonders for the confidence of company members and students to see that there is no reason why they should not get to the top if they have the application and determination. It must be really dispiriting to discover that the company that you aspire to join is regularly recruiting dancers whose style is the complete antithesis of everything that you have been taught to admire and emulate.

[Lisa O`Brien]

I'm inclined to agree with this - dd went on a course a while ago and a Japanese girl was doing triple pirouettes (en pointe). She was 9.

OMG Taxi are you serious??? So if British students at Vocational School go "back to basics" in their first term and are restricted to releves at the Barre,then what hope do they have with competing against a 9 near old doing triples on pointe?

[aileen]

I'm surprised to hear that former exponents of are not brought in to coach dancers in principal roles at the RB. At ENB I've seen photographs, video clips and written references to coaches brought in from outside (eg Patricia Ruanne and Frederic Jahn for Nureyev's R&J and Alfreda Thorogood for MacMillan's Beauty). Before Bejart's Songs of a Wayfayer the men were sent to Bejart Ballet in Lausanne for coaching. Perhaps the Ashton rep and the 19th century classics are not as carefully managed.

[Ellie]

OMG Taxi are you serious??? So if British students at Vocational School go "back to basics" in their first term and are restricted to releves at the Barre,then what hope do they have with competing against a 9 near old doing triples on pointe?

As has been said before I do think that foreign students have many more hours of dance per day than their British counterparts - even from an early age. Going back to basics at voc schools is in my opinion necessary, to iron out bad habits or indeed to teach those who have very limited ballet training - this in my experience is standard procedure across the globe, not just in UK schools. A question I ask is, in the opinion of seasoned ballet watchers (maybe this question should be for the Performance and General Discussions forum) is how many companies have retained their national identity ? I would imagine Paris Opera, Cuban National, Maryinsky would feature, all of whom seem to recruit (mostly) home grown graduates. Perhaps the ballet scene in the UK has changed and the training methods have not kept up with the times ?

[sarahw]

This is all very depressing....

[balletla]

I think that it was Belinda Hatley who said that the real problem for British dancers was their lack of confidence. Some people find that the best way of coping with lack of confidence is not to push to be put into situations in which they are convinced they will fail It's a phenomena that can be observed in many fields not just dance training. It is understandable that the head of a training institution might choose to  interpret that sort of behaviour as evidence of a sense of entitlement.When you combine that with the English  myth of effortless mastery of all sorts of skills and knowledge which actually require years of sweat, application and determination then you can let the institution off the hook by convincing yourself that your students have fallen for that lie and that the fault lies with the students rather than the institutions that provided their training.

I don't think it is understandable that the head of a training institution would interpret lack of confidence for a sense of entitlement. Surely anyone in that position should understand the issues that their students face? It is a fundamental requisite of the job. And to blame a whole cohort of students for their lack of motivation, rather than examining potential root causes and the institution's culture and system of training is naive at best.

 

It is soul-destroying for even the most motivated of students to be ignored and passed over again and again in favour of a small handful of star students. They tend to fall to the back, quietly working and getting on with it, with little teacher attention or praise. Some of the students who may 'rest on their laurels' are those from abroad who arrive and realise how far advanced they are compared to the British students and realise that they can ease off for a while but can still get all the attention and praise.

[sarahw]

Maybe CeliB or Talalee's mum have an opinion on how their dc are being trained compared to in the UK?

[Melody]

I haven't seen the article so I don't know exactly what he said, but I wonder what he meant by saying that British students felt "entitled." Like I said before, this is something I'm not seeing at this forum when I read the threads about member's children and their training and auditions and attitudes. If he's interpreting British reserve as a feeling of entitlement, someone needs to take him aside and let him know gently that he's spent too much time outside the country. I also read an interview of his where he said that students need more training in contemporary dance. I don't know the situation in other countries, but more emphasis on contemporary dance will take time away from ballet training, and if British students already lag Russian and Asian students in ballet technique, is that a good direction to be going?

 

I don't exactly understand this "lack of confidence" thing because British students are obviously world class in some areas of the performing arts (thinking about acting in particular, where we still seem to turn out international stars on a very regular basis), and if RADA can do it, RBS ought to be able to. But I do remember, years and years ago, a tennis coach telling me that when students of his were taken into the national squad for advanced training, the individuality was trained out of them and the most important thing to the national coaches seemed to be that they were well-behaved. He said he thought the main reason Virginia Wade had succeeded as much as she did was because she didn't go through that system (and her training obviously left her with major flaws but they weren't the "I need to be well-mannered and invisible" flaws).

 

I'm wondering whether the insistence (which we've talked about before) on physical conformity - right down to having a small, neat pair of ears that sit flat to the sides of the head - might have something to do with this. In the early days of British ballet there seemed to be much more variation in physical type and much more individuality in the dancers who made it to the highest levels. Now there's so much choice of potential students that they almost seem to be choosing students that conform to a physical ideal as their most important quality. Then there's quite a temptation to treat them like a potential corps because that's pretty much what they've got.

 

There has to be a way to train potential corps dancers for a life in the ranks without damaging the potential soloists and principals. RBS seems to be able to take starry young foreigners and turn them into the principals of the future; it shouldn't be impossible to do the same for young British students.

 

I'm not sure how much academic education the overseas students get in their own countries compared with British students, but from documentaries about schools like School of American Ballet, it doesn't seem as though general education is neglected. And of course Japanese and Korean students (not just dance students) are famously overworked although I'm not sure that much pressure is a good thing for most kids. I wouldn't like to see academic education being sidelined because a lot of kids aren't going to end up being professional dancers and these days you do need qualifications for most jobs.

 

Edited January 2, 2015 by Melody

[Anon2]

I can understand a new AD taking up the post and wanting to make changes to improve the school, but what I fail to understand is why Mr Powney is being so negative, in public, about his students. However he feels or interpretes their motivation surely it is something he should deal with discretely in house. His teachers, students and their parents must feel very deflated by his comments. If I had a child under his tuition I would find it hard to respect him knowing he felt that way about his students.

We have witnessed many changes at Elmhurst over the last couple of years with the new AD and as a parent it is all for the good. I'm sure when he started he could see many aspects that needed improvement but he didn't make them public. My dd feels that he has had a positive impact on standards because he gives useful feedback. He may want the students to work on something specific but there is a way of getting the message across so they feel they can achieve it without crushing their confidence. My dd also feels that with the new AD the teachers know exactly what he wants of them.

I'm sure when term starts Mr Powney may well regret being so vocal.

[Pas de Quatre]

I wonder whether Mr Powney meant that some students at Vocational school are complacent, that having gained a place there they think they have arrived. Whereas the truth is the opposite, the competition gets even tougher when they graduate and try to find jobs. There are so few openings available compared to the number of Vocational students being trained.

[swanprincess]

But surely vocational students would be too conscientious to become complacent, especially with the constant threat of being appraised out? I too felt rather discouraged and somewhat insulted by Mr Powney's comments in the article, (I found it slightly ironic that he made the comment about British students becoming complacent and lacking motivation, yet then went on to say that he seeks British talent! I felt that he was implying that the school favoured British students over international students in the auditions, but if Japanese students are doing triple pirouettes on pointe aged 9, I don't see how young British students, who don't usually start pointe until 12 or 13, are supposed to match that....) I feel inclined to write to Dancing Times about it....

[Tulip]

Don't worry about UK student not being en point until older. My daughters feet are a mess, blisters, bunions etc. she started point aged 11. Also our British dancers who really want to make it to professional level, won't be put of by written comments or negative views. They are used to having to work hard, they have grit, determination and a passion to succeed. You might get the odd couple who are used to success and achievement, so they don't realise what it is to fight to be looked at. The Japanese students do work hard including doing A levels alongside their degree.

[Melody]

Are the new RAD exams likely to help develop the young dancers' technique and artistry more quickly or thoroughly than the exams they're replacing?

[aileen]

I'm interested to know what a female student at a UK vocational school can do by the end of Year 11. For example, would she be expected to be able to perform full variations from the big classics? Would she be expected to do a large number of fouettes (perhaps not 32 as required in the Black Swan pdd)? Why are some / most international students more advanced when they enter the upper schools? Do they just train more intensively from a younger age? Do they not go back to basics when they start vocational school because a certain level of proficiency is required in order to enter the schools?

[Stirrups36]

I don't have access to the article. But this from earlier this year also expounds on competitions, teachers and... yes, funding!

 

http://www.bbo.org.uk/_assets/PDF/2014-The-Dancer-Magazine.pdf

 

I presume he is taking about the very pinacle of the dance world - those looking at classical careers. And if he is seeing a lack of motivation, then that does need addressing.

 

Just as it would in football, athletics, music, drama etc etc etc.

 

I am sure (but don't know of course) that those who may need motivating are aware already and would not be surprised at reading such words. Or indeed... Not care!!!

 

And of course, we could all point to those who have worked their socks off to get where they are today. Pushing through injury. Or personal hardship and many other things. The very exceptions that may just prove the rule. If they can do it, then why not more?

 

(And yes, of course there are other reasons for not reaching the very top of the tree. It's not an easy climb).

[sophika9899]

A young friend of mine who is currently in first year 6th form at one of our top vocational upper schools has told me the ballet they are doing is so excruciatingly dull and "basic" that she has become completely discouraged. When she finally plucked up the courage to ask her teacher whether she could up the ante a bit, she was told by the teacher that she has been told by the Artistic staff that this is what and how she must teach. I mean, we're talking here single pirouettes at 16/17 years old. Why, for goodness sake?

[LinMM]

Well don't most vocational students follow the RAD syllabus as well?

 

At 16/17 presumably must be studying at very least Advanced one if at one of these schools.

 

So how many pirouettes would be expected of an Advanced one or two student at exam level?

Surely at very least two?

[Guest]

LinMM- The new Advanced one RAD has double pirouettes, fouettes on flat and since pirroettes on pointe. The advanced 2 seems to be quite a jump with double pirouettes with varying leg lines that may prove challenging for some (eg attitude derrière) and has fouettes on pointe.

 

Aileen- Personally I have not seen many UK year 11's learning full variations but I may be mistaken, and I too would like to know why foreign students often come into auditions and show the UK students up.

Many of my friends who are in varying years at vocational schools are extremely talented, with year 9's or 10's practicing after school attempting fouettes on pointe and being able to land quadruple pirouette on flat, however also obtain the ability to strip this back to basics during classes.

 

- I understand that there are exceptions to any rule and there may be a mix of complacent and extremely driven people in every class, I am just voicing my opinion being 17 and having friends in the situations being discussed.

[Tulip]

RAD is by choice on a Saturday at central. Ballet classes are non syllabus. Two or three good clean pirouettes is expected I can imagine. More of they are correct and strong.

[Tulip]

Meant to say whilst en point

[LinMM]

Thanks littleballerina.

 

Ive just managed to find the entire syllabus for Advanced foundation then one and two.

 

Of course there are different pirouettes finishing in arabesque or attitude etc and on demi and on pointe.

 

What seems to expected at a quick glance is .....if it's straight en dehors or en dedans pirouettes on demi pointe then it's two at Advanced one and three at Advanced two.

But good training should make sure can do MORE than the exam requirement so then when taking the exam it should feel easier and less scary.

 

It did occur to me sophika9899 that your friend at vocational school may not be specialising in ballet so may not be studying ballet at the highest level.

[Pups_mum]

I'm inclined to agree with this - dd went on a course a while ago and a Japanese girl was doing triple pirouettes (en pointe). She was 9.

Straying off the original topic a bit here, but does anyone know if there have been any studies looking at the long term physical and psychological effects on children who undergo this kind of training? If a child is able to do triples on Pointe at age 9, presumably they must have started Pointe work at least a couple of years earlier, which certainly flies in the face of what is taught here and in many other countries about safe training. And what hours must these children be putting in?

As a mother, this makes me feel very uncomfortable. I think it is a rare child who will be genuinely capable of informed decision making at that age and the potential for damage must be high. I feel that there is already a tendency for dancers to be treated as a commodity rather than people, which is bad enough when we are talking about young adults, never mind primary school aged children, and personally I don't think that we should aspire to this kind of thing. Maybe I am in the minority, but I find these videos of pre pubescent girls performing variations en Pointe slightly disturbing rather than inspiring. To my mind, dance is an expressive art form that requires "whole" people to perform it at it's best. Commitment is a good thing of course and there is no doubt that dancers of all nationalities need to work extremely hard. But commitment can border on obsession, and particularly in the case of young children, coercion. For me, an emotionally meaningful performance wins every time - I don't get a lot out of watching uber flexible automatons no matter how many fouettes they can do. I know all art firms change, and you can't turn the clock back, but I think some recent trends are worrying. Where will these 9 year olds be in 20 years? How many are left broken to produce one great star? I hope the British schools don't go down this road as much as I love ballet, I do think there is a price too high to pay.

[Harwel]

I completely agree with you pups_mum. I think that the point work issue at such an early age is utterly wrong and irresponsible. I don't believe any responsible teacher in this country would go down that route. I am fascinated by the amount of turns many international students seem to be able to do, and feel that has to be a training issue. I remember my sons teacher for grade work was obsessed by perfect technique and there was no attempt at anything above a single pirouette until he was about 11. I believe by then they have built up a fear/barrier about spinning and it then becomes hard to just let yourself turn. I understand the new RAD children's work has a lot more freedom and children are allowed to just spin and jump in certain parts of the sylabus with out over thinking the technique. This sounds great, and it will be interesting to see if these children who have started the new work follow through with more freedom of movement, more turns and better jumps. I think it probably goes back to the thread on here a few months ago about sylabus v non sylabus classes and The need to mix them up.

[LinMM]

I so agree pups mum about watching "nine" year olds on YouTube doing these feats and other advanced variations

Nine year olds will have much less fear for sure. But sooner or later this will come in and they may be able to do triple turns at nine but may still be doing triple turns at nineteen when others will catch up .....but it's been in a healthier way.

 

It's a bit like some musicians who can play way beyond their years at 10 but then can have a crisis of confidence playing exactly the same music when 20!! And often have to rethink .......almost re learn a whole piece when having to re seek their own more developed relationship with it.

 

Remember the gymnast Olga Korbert ......she suffered from terrible arthritis when not very old. There could have been other reasons of course why this happened but I'm sure all that overtraining at such an early age played a big part.

 

Pointe work IS usually an issue much before teens because children's feet are still growing and so can be seriously damaged by pointe work too soon etc.

 

The thread is going a bit of course here though and I'm sure Christopher Powney (at least I sincerely hope so) is not going to be bringing in that sort of a shake up!

 

In answer to a previous question someone asked I have been told by people teaching it that the new RAD syllabus is much more dancey and musical......so perhaps will help to develop more artistry ........and I do hope this is what Powney has in mind for the training of RBS students.....bringing this out in them....as well as concentrating on technique.

[jack.b]

I see that the dreaded Youtube has reared it's head , some of these students work on one or two variations for over a year with no concept of style or artistry ,just more pirouettes and extreme extensions ,how can a child of 11 or 12 do a variation like Giselle act one or black swan when it takes a ballerina years to perfect . They are drilled to dance like automatons perhaps impressive to some but as far as I am concerned it is a sad state of affairs . to go back to basics is not such a bad thing even top dancers do it .

[Nana Lily]

"I'm interested to know what a female student at a UK vocational school can do by the end of Year 11. For example, would she be expected to be able to perform full variations from the big classics? "

 

At Elmhurst each November they do a Solo's competition for years 11, 6.1 and 6.2, 6.3. So yes year 11's are expected to perform a classical variation.

At the old YBDY year 10's were eligible to enter and several friends with children at White Lodge did get to semi finals and finals performing the classical variations

My eldest DD at Hammond also learns the classical variations and we were treated to a lovely demonstration of her class in groups of three wearing tutu skirts doing the Blue bird variation when she was in year 10, it was work in progress, but really enjoyable to watch.

I can't comment on Tring, but I am sure one of the other posters with a child there will be able to confirm.

[taxi4ballet]

Straying off the original topic a bit here, but does anyone know if there have been any studies looking at the long term physical and psychological effects on children who undergo this kind of training? If a child is able to do triples on Pointe at age 9, presumably they must have started Pointe work at least a couple of years earlier, which certainly flies in the face of what is taught here and in many other countries about safe training. And what hours must these children be putting in?

As a mother, this makes me feel very uncomfortable. I think it is a rare child who will be genuinely capable of informed decision making at that age and the potential for damage must be high. I feel that there is already a tendency for dancers to be treated as a commodity rather than people, which is bad enough when we are talking about young adults, never mind primary school aged children, and personally I don't think that we should aspire to this kind of thing. Maybe I am in the minority, but I find these videos of pre pubescent girls performing variations en Pointe slightly disturbing rather than inspiring. To my mind, dance is an expressive art form that requires "whole" people to perform it at it's best. Commitment is a good thing of course and there is no doubt that dancers of all nationalities need to work extremely hard. But commitment can border on obsession, and particularly in the case of young children, coercion. For me, an emotionally meaningful performance wins every time - I don't get a lot out of watching uber flexible automatons no matter how many fouettes they can do. I know all art firms change, and you can't turn the clock back, but I think some recent trends are worrying. Where will these 9 year olds be in 20 years? How many are left broken to produce one great star? I hope the British schools don't go down this road as much as I love ballet, I do think there is a price too high to pay.

The reason I mentioned this particular child wasn't really about being on pointe - but that at the age of 9 she was capable of doing triples rather well. 

[FLOSS]

Ribbons when I said that it was understandable that Mr Powney would talk about student's sense of entitlement,when according to at least one recent practitioner the real problem for British dancers is lack of confidence, I was suggesting that it was easier for the head of an organisation to ascribe its recent failures to its students' apparent lack of application to the task in hand because that lets the institution off the hook. If the problem is a sense of entitlement then it is not the school's fault that its students don't make it to the top. If it is fear of failure and lack of confidence which holds them back then the school must take some responsibility for the situation.As lack of confidence clearly does not afflict students from other parts of the world, then the seeds of the problem must have been sown at a stage of training which predates their entry into the upper school.I am saying that blaming other people for an institution's past failings, is in my experience, a standard response to criticism

 

As far as lack of confidence not afflicting young people that go to RADA and other drama schools is concerned surely the difference is that drama school students are considerably older and therefore less impressionable than ballet students when they

embark on their training;they have already experienced success in acting before they start professional training and are not told daily that they have faults that need to be corrected, They have not spent years of training as small children receiving corrections, knowing that they can be assessed out and seeing that there are lots of people who are as skilled as they are and some that are a lot better. Now I recognise that this is true of any great ballet school but it is not true of other forms of art training.The other significant difference is that a trainee actor has been surrounded from his or her earliest years with evidence that the British can act and are rather good at it.The Russians, the French, the Danes and the Italians all have several hundred years of evidence that they are rather good at dancing Our dance history is just over eighty years and for much of that time it has been a history of foreign dancers being very active in the senior ranks of the company. It was less noticeable in the past because the majority of such dancers were the children or grandchildren of people who had emigrated from Britain.The last twenty years has been a time when the company's dependence on foreign dancers has been very obvious because the dancers have clearly not been of British extraction. This does not necessarily mean that there is a great deal wrong with the technical training that dancers receive at the Royal Ballet School,It could mean that students find it difficult to imagine themselves getting to the top because in their very short life experience they have not seen many school graduates do so.They can't do it can easily become I can't do it. If you are told that you are not doing something well, which is inevitable in ballet training;you lack confidence and fear failure and you don't have indigenous role models that you aspire to emulate you create your own purpose built self fulfilling limitations. At four every child can paint by the time they have been at school for a year hardly any of them can paint because they have been told that they can't. Children and young people are very good at meeting the expectations of their teachers and parents. I can see no reason why dance training should be an exception to the rule.

 

As far as coaching is concerned I am not saying that company principals do not receive any coaching they clearly do and the names of the coaches appear on the front page of the cast sheets that are available for Royal Ballet performances I am saying that the Russian approach to coaching is very different from the Royal Ballet's. The Royal Ballet has a small team of coaches which includes Leslie Collier and Jonathan Cope both of whom were distinguished exponents of certain roles. Occasionally this small team is augmented by other former members of the company such as Mason, Sibley and Dowell for particular ballets or sometimes for particular debuts. The point that I was trying to make is that this is that calling on other former dancers is not done consistently which means  that  comparatively few dancers have had the benefit of coaching by Sibley in the roles of Aurora or Odette Oile. Some great dancers such as Brenda Last who must know more about Lise than any dancer now living is never used as a coach and Lynn Seymour who created a number of major roles is never invited to coach them. The other point about coaching is that the major Russian companies identify potential major dancers as soon as they enter the company and that they are allocated their own coach with whom they work when preparing roles for performance and this coaching relationship continues, as far as I am aware, throughout their career.I have no doubt that this,combined with a much larger initial pool of talent, explains the Russian's ability to produce a seemingly endless supply of fine dancers. I imagine that it is a question of money at the end of the day combined with the way in which the company developed in its early years that explains the Royal's approach to coaching.I wonder how members of the forum. let alone the public would react if they learned that on entry into the company dancers were allocated according to their perceived potential either to the corps or to a group selected as soloists and potential principals.