British students lack motivation.....

[Melody]

I do wonder what happens to the Chinese youngsters who are immersed in training to the exclusion of all else but fail to make the grade. They must not have much of a future to look forward to. But, speaking about the dance students rather than the Olympic athletes, if they go through this sort of training when they're young and are the ones chosen by the western ballet companies over home-grown talent, then it's just perpetuating a system that the western companies and societies ought not to be supporting, if they really believe that a more rounded education is important.

[taxi4ballet]

I read some time ago a quote from somebody that went something like this:

 

"If you spend too much time thinking about Plan B, you will not succeed at Plan A"

 

The reasoning behind the article was that you need single-minded determination and dedication to succeed, and if you gave yourself any back-up plan to fall back on in case of failure, then you were bound to need it. It was to do with business rather than dance, but it did get me thinking...

[JoJo]

There is a programme currently showing on Sky Arts ..... Deborah Bull is looking into the training at the Bolshoi .

.

 

Yes the first half focuses on the Bolshoi company and the second on the Academy. My DD was interviewed for the programme and features briefly in the second half along with another British student.

Edited January 6, 2015 by JoJo

[FrankH]

I do wonder what happens to the Chinese youngsters who are immersed in training to the exclusion of all else but fail to make the grade. They must not have much of a future to look forward to. But, speaking about the dance students rather than the Olympic athletes, if they go through this sort of training when they're young and are the ones chosen by the western ballet companies over home-grown talent, then it's just perpetuating a system that the western companies and societies ought not to be supporting, if they really believe that a more rounded education is important.

In other words, western ballet companies should not employ Chinese dancers.

 

Although British (came to this country in 1948 at the age of 2), I am of Chinese ethnic origin and have many relatives over there. There is very much that is wrong with China, but also much misunderstanding and misrepresentation in the west.

 

And I'm afraid I often detect in western comments on Chinese, and other east Asian ethnicities (Korean, Japanese etc.) a sort of attitude which portrays all of us, (and the basis is definitely ethnic/racial rather than national), as basically one-dimensional "unrounded" personalities, who only achieve success because we are obsessive, geekish, unfeeling automatons - whereas westerners are properly rounded complete human beings, who achieve because of true talent.

 

This is a hurried reply - I'll perhaps try a more considered one later - but I have to rush off to the London Wetland Centre, where I am a volunteer. Forgive me if, as a newbie, I've injected a rather sour note into the discussion, but I'm afraid you've touched a raw nerve with me.

Edited January 7, 2015 by FrankH

[drdance]

Wow this thread has picked up steam since I last read it! I just want to add that I totally agree with those comments re training not necessarily matching the requirements of performance. During my research years it became very very clear that the physical and physiological demands of ballet training (classwork etc) do not adequately prepare dancers for the physical demands of performance, and the conclusion from the research was that the training needs to catch up with this - whether the powers that be, who run these schools etc are reading the dance science research remains to be seen! Although I do know that Central's AD is always present at IADMS conferences etc.

 

I was also interested to hear that the Russian training involves much more devoted, dance specific strength and flexibility training - almost akin to gymnastic training. This is something that we are passionate about with MIDAS - and spend equal time on 'doing the dancing' ie technique etc and 'allowing/preparing the body to do the dancing'. Again, research in the field of Dance Science has shown a discrepancy between the two factors. It seems to be something that British schools only invest time and effort in when a student is injured, rather than in injury prevention or specific physical training. It's almost as though 'if it's not dancing, it's bad'. I do know that RBS WL students do some gymnastics, but without full inside info I don't know what is studied or how it's trained/taught and they do some body conditioning exercises but it's only 10 minutes at the start of each ballet class. 

 

Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

[CeliB]

In other words, western ballet companies should not employ Chinese dancers.

 

Although British (came to this country in 1948 at the age of 2), I am of Chinese ethnic origin and have many relatives over there. There is very much that is wrong with China, but also much misunderstanding and misrepresentation in the west.

 

And I'm afraid I often detect in western comments on Chinese, and other east Asian ethnicities (Korean, Japanese etc.) a sort of attitude which portrays all of us, (and the basis is definitely ethnic/racial rather than national), as basically one-dimensional "unrounded" personalities, who only achieve success because we are obsessive, geekish, unfeeling automatons - whereas westerners are properly rounded complete human beings, who achieve because of true talent.

 

This is a hurried reply - I'll perhaps try a more considered one later - but I have to rush off to the London Wetland Centre, where I am a volunteer. Forgive me if, as a newbie, I've injected a rather sour note into the discussion, but I'm afraid you've touched a raw nerve with me.

 

I hope my comment didn't cause offense - the opinion I reported was from a Chinese coach who had gone through the chinese olympic diving programme from the age of 6. I don't think I interpreted this as a comment on inherent personality type so much as the effect of being in a regime where it is possible to rise from very poor origins to a position of high status and wealth because of natural talent spotted and nurtured by a well funded state programme. The point being that children spotted as talented (in sport/ballet or whatever) might not have any possibility to achieve at such a high level in other fields. I would liken it to poor children in the USA who become basketball superstars, or in European countries who become footballers. As I said, I get the impression that the situation is similar in Russia (and arguably in Cuba) so this is not really about the ethnicity of the population as the cultural and political support for the sport/art which made it both more achievable and more desirable.... Perhaps it is an out of date opinion? (after all, we are talking of the experience of someone a generation ago).

 

I do also think Taxis comment above is really pertinent - if you live in a relatively rich, developed country then the plan B opportunities are more achievable- and perhaps you give up on Plan A more easily? I know my personal experience that allowing DS to pretty much give up on much possibility of getting a university education would have been a much harder call had he been an academic high flyer. Perhaps there is a point where the desire for a fully rounded education/life is incompatible with achieving at the highest level in a specialist area at a young age. There are only so many hours in a day aren't there?

[Melody]

In other words, western ballet companies should not employ Chinese dancers.

 

Although British (came to this country in 1948 at the age of 2), I am of Chinese ethnic origin and have many relatives over there. There is very much that is wrong with China, but also much misunderstanding and misrepresentation in the west.

 

And I'm afraid I often detect in western comments on Chinese, and other east Asian ethnicities (Korean, Japanese etc.) a sort of attitude which portrays all of us, (and the basis is definitely ethnic/racial rather than national), as basically one-dimensional "unrounded" personalities, who only achieve success because we are obsessive, geekish, unfeeling automatons - whereas westerners are properly rounded complete human beings, who achieve because of true talent.

 

This is a hurried reply - I'll perhaps try a more considered one later - but I have to rush off to the London Wetland Centre, where I am a volunteer. Forgive me if, as a newbie, I've injected a rather sour note into the discussion, but I'm afraid you've touched a raw nerve with me.

I didn't say that. My problem here is the potential for the same hypocrisy we're seeing when the British companies talk encouragingly about fostering the British style of dance and favouring lyricism and neat footwork and whatnot - and then ignore all the dancers coming out of the RBS with those qualities in favour of Russian or South American students (yes, I know, I've gone and offended a whole lot of other members with Russian and South American ancestry now) who are equipped with flashier technique but quite a lot less lyricism.

 

Same thing here. If a rounded education is important to the British dance schools and companies, such that students are expected to get a raft of GCSEs and an A level or two as well as keeping up their ballet lessons and their contemporary and character lessons and whatnot, then those students are probably going to be less advanced in their technique than students described in CeliB's post 128, where academic education is ignored in favour of a very narrow concentration on the athletic specialision. If the companies then turn round and ignore their own students in favour of the ones going through that narrow curriculum, then they're being dishonest about what they really want. I know CeliB's post was about Olympic athletes, not dancers, and I hope that sort of narrow specialisation isn't happening to the dance students, because I do wonder what happens to the kids who don't make it as professional athletes but wouldn't have any other qualifications or education to fall back on.

 

Going back to the original topic - the perceived lack of motivation - if kids get into WL and basically are fed the message "if you work your butts off for the next 8 years, you too could become a member of the corps de ballet!" then maybe that might explain a bit of it.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Melody

[Dance*is*life]

I think it's important to get one's priorities straight. Someone who wants to make it as a dancer has to give up on something - as CeliB wrote "There are only so many hours in a day,aren't there?" Dancers don't have a very long career and there is so much competition today for every ballet company place, that it seems to me to be the right thing to concentrate first on being the best possible dancer you can be! We all know that to succeed in this toughest of vocations, you need to be single minded, dedicated and hardworking to the exclusion of everything else. If it's possible to go back to academic training later in life, after having a stage career, rather than trying to squeeze everything in beforehand, what's wrong with that? Universities take students at any age, indeed for a "mature" student, they don't even require A levels. etc. Many dancers retrain in a totally different field or in something related to dance. I have a dancer friend, who decided to become an arts therapist and studied for that in university when she was in her 50s. Li Cunxin (Mao's Last Dancer) became a very successful businessman in Australia, when he gave up dancing, and is now back in ballet as Artistic Director to the Queensland Ballet.

[Melody]

I assume there's some sort of legal requirement on vocational schools to provide at least a certain level of academic education.

 

But I'm just wondering. I know we have a number of people in this thread who have children either at or hoping to go to full-time vocational schools from the age of 11 or thereabouts. Would you be OK with your kids not learning anything that wasn't directly relevant to their ballet from the age of 11 or 12? To do away with the academic part of the day and just study dance and dance-related topics full-time? No maths, science, history, geography, literature, RE, etc? Just wondering if the academics are seen by parents as an important part of a vocational education or something getting in the way of their children achieving their potential as dancers.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Melody

[taxi4ballet]

I assume there's some sort of legal requirement on vocational schools to provide at least a certain level of academic education.

 

But I'm just wondering. I know we have a number of people in this thread who have children either at or hoping to go to full-time vocational schools from the age of 11 or thereabouts. Would you be OK with your kids not learning anything that wasn't directly relevant to their ballet from the age of 11 or 12? To do away with the academic part of the day and just study dance and dance-related topics full-time? No maths, science, history, geography, literature, RE, etc? Just wondering if the academics are seen by parents as an important part of a vocational education or something getting in the way of their children achieving their potential as dancers.

Yes, there's a legal requirement for academic education. I don't see academics as getting in the way, they are a necessary part of growing up (although ask any 15-year-old dancer and they would probably have a different opinion!)

[Tulip]

My daughter is academic and we definately would NOT have sacrificed her rounded education over dance, both where equal. She did really well with her GCSE results however we decider for sixth form that she wanted to concentrate purely on dance. At 16 we felt that she was old enough to make that decision, but before that age, as parents we felt that our job was to keep her educated all round.

[Piccolo]

Anyone else getting a bit mixed up and stired up over this thread? I don't know what to make of this ballet school lark at the moment! Isn't the wonderful thing about the arts the fact that it transcends nationality, race, language and other barriers, to reach people?

If dancers are excellent, shouldn't they be able to work anywhere in the world and represent any company's style of dance?

 

From the DT interview, it seems Mr P is internationally minded, in persuit of excellence, and he says he's keen to see his students develop as 'artist dancers' and 'as human beings with something to say and knowledge of how to say it'. Surely that can only be a good thing for his UK students with low confidence?

 

At the last International Summer School, didn't Mr P pick out several British attendees to join the school? If he has identified areas for development and improvement among British students, it looks as though he's clearly up for the challenge.

[Harwel]

I agree with you piccolo. I can understand why some people are offended, by the unfortunate phrase of him saying he feels some British students feel a sense of entitlement. However, maybe some do, some will be complacent, and some will be lacking in confidence. The whole range of human psychology will be evidenced throughout the ballet student population, no matter what nationality they are. And I am sure it is a moving feast, complacent one minute, a mass of insecurities the next.

 

Very, very few will have the mindset that will take them into a career in dance and even fewer to make it as principles. It is as much a part of having the correct talent as turnout, flexibility and artistic quality. We are very fortunate in this country to have some world ranking ballet companies aswel as having some of the best musical theatre performers in the world. If Mr P has spotted an area for improvement, so that some of the most talented ballet students can have a greater chance of fulfilling their potential then that can only be a good thing.

 

Speaking as a parent with a child at vocational school. There is no way I would allow him to sacrifice his academic education for ballet training. I think that a strong set of GCSEs is essential. I have seen plenty of talented, determined 14, 15 year olds suddenly decide dance is not for them, they need to know they have another route. I agree higher education can be pursued at a later date but dance can't (I personally took that route) but strong education upto 16 is a must. I believe Tamara Rojo pursued a very high academic education alongside her dance training.

 

The achievement of excellence in any field is only bestowed on the most exceptional people. So many things have to come together. As parents we can support and encourage our DC, but only they know if they truly, truly want it and if they have what it takes to make it. 'Making it' will mean different things to different people. Perhaps it is to get into a company, perhaps to earn a living dancing, others May feel they have only made it if they get into RB and yet others won't have 'made it' unless they get to principle. Plenty will just decide to do something 'normal' like Claudia Dean did recently. To me, whatever my son decides is ok with me. As long as he is out there, full of life and pursuing a dream that makes him happy then I'm happy for him. Perhaps that doesn't provide the killer instinct. But we are very fortunate in this country that children don't have to train in ballet as a way out of poverty and gangs.

 

Oh dear, I feel I've gone off on a horrible tangent, I have so many thoughts and feelings about this it's hard to get them down coherently!

[Lema]

I agree fully with the other posts about having a full education up untill 16, my dd is 11 and there are plenty of years ahead of her in which she could change her mind, injure herself or realise a different calling in life.....if she was to give up on her academics now for her ballet training where would that leave her should one of the fore mentioned happen?! At least by getting her GCSE's that leaves her with options should something put a holt to her ballet career/training!

[Zacharovitti]

I have been reading this thread with great interest, living in a country that has always had the syndrom of "Uk (and almost the rest of Europeans) do it better". I am glad to see that issues are exactly the same.

Some posters here were worried about UK training system being slower than in other countries: I wouldn't, as for what I know, it is the same at other serious vocational school (POB, Accademia alla Scala), where entering children are taken back to basics.

Don't be impressed of what you watch on You tube! A few years ago, in my DDs ballet school, there was an exceptional very talented child, he was American, living in Italy for a while for his parents jobs; seeing his potential, parents decided he would have left academic school (he was 8 or 9 at that time) for home-schooling and he would have been trained privately by our ballet school director (a former POB etoile), many hours a day, every day. He partecipated to all the best competitions of the world, YAGP, Varna, Lausanne, and won everything. First prizes everywhere, special awards, scholarships in almost every big academy of the world......He refused a place at RBS, POB, ABT and many others as he was too advanced for his age and entering in the appropriate age group would have meant to go back. Then he went back to USA and, for what I know, he went on training privately. Now is working as professional dancer in a small company in the States. This to say that the expectations for this talented child were much more then this: everybody of us thought he would have been an etoile in a big company....He burned out. His advanced stage at young age, didn't allow him to enter in a big vocational school at the proper time. His phenomenal progress that wondered all of us when he was a little child (triple pirouettes at 6, etc), had a stop along the way. At 16, 17 he was no more the phenomen he was at 8. Others caught up.

Re the issue of academics. In Italy we do not have any vocational school that provides for academics. That means that children have to manage between a very demanding academic school (this is one of the few fields we are very proud of: our school preparation is considered by US and UK universities to be one of the best, according to their reports),  many ballet lessons (often in different ballet schools to provide a sufficient amount of hours of good training) and lots of school work to do at home. Every DC has to struggle with this life since they are very young, if they seriously want to become dancers. Nevertheless, the most of the parents (with rare exceptions in the lowest class), will never allow them to leave the school till the State Examination at the age of 18, corresponding to your A levels. That means that yes, they might be behind their international peers who have spent all their life only dancing, but I think they won't be in the long run, at least it will never happen to the exceptional talents: exceptional talents are not only the most talented in dancing, but people with a strong personality, an interior flame,  that allows them to deal with everything and leads them to the top, whatever hard it might be. And I truly believe that part of this excellence is built with the "culture". I believe that an exceptional artist, including a dancer, needs to be a cultured person to develop that sensitivity and depth of feeling that allow him to be a real artist. Hours of pure ballet training, specific gymnastic for flexibility etc, can produce perfect tecnique and outstanding dancers, but artists are more then this. Perfect for corps de ballet, not etoiles. Nureyev, just to name a worldwide known artist, was a very cultured person: he read hundreds of books, he nurtured lots of interests beyond ballet, he could keep any conversation of any kind giving an interesting and informed contribution. He became a mith not only for his dancing qualities (that could even be considered not so exceptional nowdays!) but for the person he was, in the whole sense.

Could a very talented ballet student dance "Romeo and Juliet" with no awareness of Shakespeare's importance and meaning in history and English literature? Yes he/she can study every step, watch every video of the former etoiles who danced it, remind every movement and expression....it will be a copy. He/she will be another perfect executor. He/she needs to "BE" Romeo/Juliet, he/she needs to feel them in a way that only a nurtured education allows. Maturity, awareness, personality, are reached with a long process of education, where every single academic subject gives its contribution, as well as a very good ballet training. I want to believe that, in the long run, dancers who have fed their physic with hard training, their mind with a well rounded education, their soul with passion, curiosity, capacity of "feeling" the world and human beings,  will be the ones that could comunicate something different to the audience, that goes beyond the perfect tecnique. I want to believe in a future where reaching excellence in dance it is not translated in a rush to have chldren able to do 32 fouettes on pointe at 9 years old or a full variation at 13, but in an everyday grow of the dancer as an athlet, a special gifted human being, an artist. And I want to believe that these will be the ones who will go down to history.

Re-reading this post, I'm aware there are a lot of grammar mistakes, but I hope something I said make sense!

[Harwel]

Love that post Zacharovitti.

[Dance*is*life]

Good heavens I wasn't talking about doing away with academic education altogether!  Just from 16 perhaps to pare it back considerably at the upper schools!  I went to a grammer school until 13, when I moved to an arts school with education until 16 when I went to the Royal.  We didn't do science or sport, at the arts day school, freeing those hours up for dance related subjects and I didn't take many GCSE's, as my grammer school headmistress predicted.   However, I was miserable at the high school and adored my time at the arts school and I do feel the benefit of it to this day in my teaching approach.   Obviously you have to get a good education, and I do regret missing out on the science subjects, but I later managed to get a First Class Honours degree through the RAD, so I ended up OK there.   I personally feel that the most crucial time for a promising dancer is 16 to 18 and if that could be more concentrated on mainly dancing subjects I think it would help the students.  That's all I meant! 

[Piccolo]

Well if you have gone off on a tangent Harwell, it's been very helpful! Great post!

[BankruptMum]

I think it's important to get one's priorities straight. Someone who wants to make it as a dancer has to give up on something - as CeliB wrote "There are only so many hours in a day,aren't there?" Dancers don't have a very long career and there is so much competition today for every ballet company place, that it seems to me to be the right thing to concentrate first on being the best possible dancer you can be! We all know that to succeed in this toughest of vocations, you need to be single minded, dedicated and hardworking to the exclusion of everything else. If it's possible to go back to academic training later in life, after having a stage career, rather than trying to squeeze everything in beforehand, what's wrong with that? Universities take students at any age, indeed for a "mature" student, they don't even require A levels. etc. Many dancers retrain in a totally different field or in something related to dance. I have a dancer friend, who decided to become an arts therapist and studied for that in university when she was in her 50s. Li Cunxin (Mao's Last Dancer) became a very successful businessman in Australia, when he gave up dancing, and is now back in ballet as Artistic Director to the Queensland Ballet.

 

Sorry a little off-thread again - just wondered how well supported our retired 'dancers' and 'sportspeople' are by the Government.  I think our poor youngsters spend so many hours juggling an academic pathway as well as dance training as they know they need a back-up plan and foundation to move on after any potential career is over.

 

Yes you can go to University as a mature student but how many can afford it if they have rent/mortgages to pay, potentially children to look after, they need an income upon retirement not in three years time.  I know some UK companies help their dancers and allow them to study whilst working but this isnt always the case and as most tend to work overseas it must be very hard to gain qualifications whilst working professionally.

 

 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I don't think they are well supported at all.

 

Footballers have testimonial games as they head towards retirement (& lower league players are not nearly as well payed as the figures you see in the press) where they are given the proceeds of the match to live on post retirement.

 

I think most dancers & sportspeople have to try & get into coaching/teaching at the very least.

 

I also agree that uni is very expensive if you have a family & rent/mortgage to pay.

[sophika9899]

Zacharovitti, one of the best posts on this forum.

My DD was at vocational 6th firm till very recently and was trained before this at a london voc lower school. While she and her friends worked extremely hard in year 11, securing excellent GCSEs and preparing for auditions for upper school I can't say they laboured to the point of exhaustion. Their teachers gave them the impression that they would "walk" the auditions, in fact my DD was told she would have a choice of upper schools. How wrong they were. None of them got into the schools they presumed would take them. Don't get me wrong. These are hard working, delightful well rounded girls but they lack an "edge" or perhaps call it a hunger to succeed. The training at the school was good but did not prepare them for the rigours of upper school, not even the competitive stress of the auditions. It just wasn't intense enough. I didn't see it at the time, thinking my daughter was "up there" with the rest but she wasn't. She did go on to to 6th form ballet school but has now dropped out. To say I'm gutted is an understatement but that's another story. But I have to say ( at the risk of annoying the mums I know) these girls had too many other distractions and did not understand at all what intensity of work was needed to move to the next level. What's more worrying was neither did their teachers. When they didn't achieve the places they wanted, the plan Bs were expertly put into action by us parents and some of the girls, including DD are now happily at normal schools. Plan B was so easy to implement. In the countries that have been mentioned, Cuba, Russia, China, perhaps the plan Bs are not waiting there as an alternative. My Dd knew that if the ballet didn't pan out, mummy and daddy would sort it out without question. If this had been me in my youth my parents would have told me to shut up and get on with it. They would have told me to at least give it a go as it had been my choice in the first place. In this day and age we are too ready to fix things for our children as soon as it looks like it's not quite what they want. In this country and US in particular. Therefore of course, our kids lack the motivation and drive. Please keep in mind that I am grossly overgeneralising to make a point and there are british kids out they who work their socks off to get where they want so please do not take offense.

[aileen]

Quite a lot of dancers do distance learning degrees. Steven McRae is one; I think that he has completed his. There is an organisation that assists dancers into other careers. It visited ENB recently and I believe that it has also visited the RB. 

 

In some countries (particularly the US and Australia) there is a stronger tradition of home education/distance learning which enables serious dance students who are not at vocational school to combine academic education with many hours in the studio.

[taxi4ballet]

Sophika, thank you so much for letting us know about your dd's experiences and I'm sorry things didn't work out for her. Hopefully she will be able to find a new fulfilling path.

[aileen]

Sophika, thank you for your frank post. It must have been disappointing for your daughter to have received so many rejections having been given what turned out to be over-optimistic predictions as to her chances but (and I hope that you do not take offence at this) she clearly did not want it enough either and it is better that she bailed out early rather than spending more time and more money on pursuing a career to which she was not whole-heartedly committed. It would only have got harder as the competition for jobs is even tougher than the competition for places in upper schools.

[primrose]

At the Bolshoi the students in lower and upper school have to study a full programme of academics. This is something I have copied from word press that my dd wrote when entering first year of the upper school.

have lots of new subjects this year.. mainly academics. My new subjects are; History, History of the Theatre, History of the 20th century, History of the World Culture, History of Ballet, Music Literature, Physics, Geography… and duet (pas de deux). These were all subjects that had state exams attatched that also had to be passed at a certain grade in order to graduate.

It is not true at the Bolshoi regarding poverty. All children in Russia receive free education much the same as in Britain. They even have there own universities. Russia has many wealthy people and a lot of students at the academy are very rich.

[sophika9899]

No offence taken Aileen and thank you for your answer. I completely agree that DD didn't want it enough. I just wish she had told us sooner but maybe she just wasn't sure. I just can't get over her dropping out of upper school (elmhurst) where some kids would give their right arm to be at. Some would love to be there but because of the present grant system can't go.

[Harwel]

I think it is probably tougher for parents when children decide to change course. Especially something like dance, which has taken so much time and commitment from the parents to make it happen. It's a very tough decision to make and I'm sure did not come easily to your daughter. I wish her the best of luck finding a new passion and well done you, for supporting her at a time that must be very upsetting for all of you.

[amos73]

Love that post Zacharovitti.

Yes. Extremely eloquent Zacharovitti.

[2dancersmum]

Good luck to your DD sophika9899 in whatever she chooses to do next. I think there is a huge step up between lower school and upper school training in terms of intensity. DD knows of several students who found this transition difficult and found themselves questioning whether it was what they really wanted or if they were continuing more because they did not know what they would or could do if they left. Its not easy when so many years have been devoted to dance and the dancers have earned their places in the upper schools but dancers start working towards their futures as quite young children. I bet if you asked children aged 10 now what job/career they would like to have and then asked them again aged 16 and then as 25 year olds, the percentage that kept the same goal/career would be minute

[aileen]

Sophika, I didn't realise that your daughter had got a place at Elmhurst. I had assumed that she had had to settle for somewhere which did not give her a very good chance of gaining a place in a company. As has been mentioned before on other threads, I think that, because it's so incredibly competitive, it's very easy to get caught up in the whole audition process and neglect to give enough thought to whether this is something that you really want to do. And, of course, children just change their mind. You see this all the time with extra-curricular activities. Whilst I can understand your disappointment (and her decision probably seems so inexplicable after she invested so many years of her life in ballet) it really is better that she dropped out now and, thankfully, she had a good set of GCSEs to fall back on. Her situation neatly demonstrates why it is a risk for children to put all their eggs in one (ballet) basket and neglect their academic studies. I don't suppose that she's unusual either. Quite a few children must choose to give up vocational training even when they have not been assessed out of their current school.

[aileen]

Something else that I forgot to mention is that when children reach their mid-teens some of them will want a more varied social life than they will be able to have at a vocational boarding school. The reality is that if you become a professional dancer your social life will be very much based around the other dancers in the company as you will be performing so many evenings and weekends (in addition to attending classes and rehearsals during the day). Dancers don't necessarily get bank holidays off and time off in the Christmas period may be confined to Christmas Day and New Year's Day only as there are often performances on Christmas and NY Eves and Boxing Day. Whilst it is a tremendous privilege to be a member of a company, the workload and self-discipline required are huge and only those who absolutely love dancing and performing on stage should contemplate a career as a professional dancer. There's no shame in deciding that you don't want this kind of life.

[double trouble]

Sophika I know how you feel as my DD also gave up after being in full time training ! It was such a shock as we always thought it was her dream but agree with Aileen once they get bit older and start socialising more perhaps they feel left out ? My DD just felt she had lost the passion and let's face it the training is hard my daughter only had Sundays off ! When she first decided to leave we thought she would go back and would miss it but apart from doing few classes at Danceworks she now isn't interested at all ! DD didn't finish her A levels which we felt she should of! Definitely think make sure your DC do well at GCSE s as when they change their minds they need plan B . It wasn't just my daughter that gave up at her sch others felt it wasn't for them as well.

[CeliB]

I just want to be clear I wasn't advocating narrow specialisation particularly, or lack of academics. And DS does still do a lot in the way of academics - both core subject and those pertinent to a dance career (in whatever form) - just not as much as if he'd been at a non vocational school. Also with regard to a rounded education as I have said before I am in many ways very pleased DS didnt go to vocational school until 14 and in fact didn't really do much ballet before age 12 as this enabled him  to experience lots of other sports and activities and to have a completely normal life until he was old enough (IMO) to know he really did want to do ballet for a career. However its also true that changing DS to a completely different academic system at a fairly pivotal age (14) wasn't likely to do his academics any good and I do suspect we would have been more reluctant to do this if he had looked like he was going to get A stars across the board and have the chance for a top university education.

 

In terms of UK training though Sophikas experience is fascinating (sorry I don't mean that to sound callous - obviously very distressing on a personal level but fascinating as an insight into vocational school in the UK) as it does match  what started this whole thread: the suggestion that vocational schools in the UK foster a sense of entitlement. But I am also surprised in some ways as I also get the impression that the whole assessing out system keeps the children continuously anxious, internally competative and 'on their toes' (pardon the pun) as they feel they could be discarded at any moment in favour of someone better..... and not long ago wasnt there a (Guardian?) journalist bemoaning the state of UK ballet training who suggested this assessing out was the reason why UK dancers aren't achieving (eg they are permanently stressed!). So it seems they are both overly stressed and trying too hard, as well as unmotivated and full of themselves. How amazingly talented they are to have so many incompatible reasons for being inadequate (except not too talented obviously or that would spoil the narrative).

 

Sorry, sarcasm running away with me.

 

Perhaps in the end we shouldn't feel so bad about the quality of UK training- we DO produce many fine dancers from a country with a very small population, where ballet is really a bit a of a niche art form (what percentage of the UK population has ever been to a ballet performance really?) and with very little state support. I recall one of DS's teachers (in her 20s so current, from Latvia, trained in Russia) telling me of the 25 children she started ballet school with aged 10/11, only 5 graduated the school at 18. And she herself had left and is now teaching. Maybe our 'hit rate' isn't so bad, we just start with fewer students.

Edited January 8, 2015 by CeliB