British students lack motivation.....

[aileen]

So, if UK students can perform full classical variations at the end of lower school how can they be behind their international peers against whom they are competing for upper school places? I certainly don't like to see 9 year olds dancing variations on pointe but I don't have a problem with 13 or 14 year olds doing a fair bit on pointe. As for the vocational syllabi, well, you'd expect aspiring professionals to be working well beyond that, wouldn't you? I think that other countries take a more Darwinian approach: some will crash and burn but others will be fine starting pointe work at a young age and will become accomplished at an early age and experience no physical problems. Let's not forget that, in the past, British (female) dancers often joined the RB at 16. There's a happy medium. I do think that students should be introduced to pirouettes and fouettes (even if not on pointe) much earlier. I recollect that in the old Grade 5 RAD syllabus you only had to do a half pirouette. Whatever one thinks about Dance Moms (and I know that it's not proper ballet), I'm struck by the ease with which those pre-teen girls can do multiple spins and fouettes, which seem to hold absolutely no fear for them; they are just a standard part of their dance routines.

[Harwel]

Tring do solo variation lessons from year 10 certainly, not sure if they start younger. I believe They then have a solos competition and present best solos to the rest of the dance students. I haven't seen them, so don't know at what level they are but DS has learnt 2 solo variations in the last term.

[Nina G.]

FLOSS  "The point that I was trying to make is that this is that calling on other former dancers is not done consistently which means  that  comparatively few dancers have had the benefit of coaching by Sibley in the roles of Aurora or Odette Oile. Some great dancers such as Brenda Last who must know more about Lise than any dancer now living is never used as a coach and Lynn Seymour who created a number of major roles is never invited to coach them".  

 

The lack of consistent coaching of professional (British trained) dancers is probably one of the reasons why there are so few at the top. The Russians are way better in this; they do indeed allocate a personal coach to each of their young professional dancers ( who are identified early on to become a Soloist/Principal)...and they fly!

I suspect a lack of time and money prevents consistent, individual coaching of our most talented young professional dancers.

I can only imagine - IF a personal coaching system was put into place - how our British trained dancers would fly! 

[Dance*is*life]

I haven't been on the site for a few days, so missed this really fascinating thread.  I haven't received my Dancing Times yet, no doubt due to the vagaries of Christmas/New Year postal services, so haven't read the article, but I think there has been a lot of very informed posts here about the subject. 

 

When I was training seriously in the 1960s, we were expected to do a lot more on pointe at a younger age, perhaps because it was before the age of "enlightment" about what one should or shouldn't do.  I was doing 32 fouettes on pointe at 15 and when I went to the RBS Senior School we were expected to do 32 fouettes right and left.  I remember learning solo variations in rep classes and we learnt repertoire work in pas de deux classes as well.   The funny thing was that overseas students were placed in two separate classes and it was accepted that the level was lower than the rest of the school. I know someone who actually went to Sir Arnold Haskell and begged him to move her from the overseas class to a regular one, because she felt she wasn't advancing enough!  So what has happened in the past 50 years since then?

 

I am definitely on the side of caution in training young students - it horrifies me to see some of the 9 year olds dancing variations on pointe in YAGP and I think they should not allow it.  However, I do think that the training needs to be stepped up somewhat. In my opinion you won't be able to teach the new RAD syllabi on one 45 minute class a week and perhaps that is also one of the reasons that they made the changes - to force students to take more classes a week.  They have also included quite a lot of contemporary movements, because, as our tutor explained, the choreographic style has changed.  When you attempt exercises such as pirouettes and grand jetes at a younger age, you are not afraid of them.  You can't wait to teach doubles until Intermediate, when they are supposed to be proficient in them - you have to get them trying for doubles way before that.  So from that point of view I think the RAD expectations are good and will give the teachers a push out of their complacency too.  And I include myself in that.  I learnt the new syllabi in a state of shock at what they are expecting us to teach, but upon reflection I think I'm for it.  I have a very good class this year at Intermediate level.  Because the overall standard is higher than usual, I have been pushing them more than usual, with the result that quite a few are manging doubles even on pointe.  In the past I would have held back, thinking that it was too ambitious for them, but higher expectations have led to a higher standard. 

[Stirrups36]

An AD making such statement pales into insignificance against what goes on and is said in Russia - and don't they have the 'best' schools? but from reading articles and interview transcripts on Ismene Brown's blog, the Vaganova is some third rate school... ok maybe a slight exaggeration...

 

They have bought in new set of procedures, for example requiring attendance at lessons and not being late to class! What is that if not a motivation problem?

 

They too bemoan the fact that chinese and korean artists are winning competitions (in music as well as dance).

 

Seemingly just as important as the triples are "the angle of a turn of the head" - and may be this is for another thread, but I don't think what the RAD are doing at some grade makes much difference to what they do at that level.

 

The UK had some of the best ballet schools in the world - which is why so many overseas students want to go there. With more work and effort, the schools will get even better - and with an AD who has stated that he wants more British dancers in the school and going onto companies, surely we should be pleased?

[tabitha]

Just a small point on the fouettés.... I'm not sure they are the best indication of technical standard as my understanding is that they can be done in different ways. At RBS I think Miss Stock used to teach developpe to the front with a releve before each turn but I think the Russian style is just developpe to the side with no releve. Also, they can be done without flawless technique, for example I have never seen Osipova straighten her leg in a developpe at all but she gets claps for doing doubles whereas if look at old footage of Darcey, she does perfect RBS-style fouettés, which I personally think look more pleasing. Feel free to disagree

Edited January 3, 2015 by tabitha

[betterankles]

Well my mother was asked to buy pointe shoes for me when I was 5! But I only took a couple of classes at that age.

Later at a boarding school, aged 9 we were taught various solos from classical repertoire on pointe if considered strong enough, and taught fouettees and all manner of enchainements, jumps and turns.

 

The great old Russian teachers (pre Vaganova) held open classes in Paris and London and talened children and adolescents attended these classes which were in fact professional classes. It ws wonderful to be able to watch top dancers in class and learn how to do the steps by watching them as much as by the actual classes.

 

In a twenty year career, I had only two injuries, an ankle sprain and a torn calf muscle which I got over enough for me to perform three weeks later on pointe), and varying amounts of tendinits in the ankles which only took me off one performance in my entire career.

 

I consider myself very lucky in that my many teachers when a child, recognized that my legs and feet were strong, and encouraged doing more, and doing the 'cleaning' later, as this enabled me to feel completely 'normal' in pointe shoes, I didn't get blisters (did get horrid soft corns though, but hardly can blame being 'too early' on pointe for those), and enjoyed virtuose steps rather then havnig a fear of them, enabling me to be almost totally obsessed by the artistic side of my work, the storytelling, musicality and sharing of the joy of dance.

 

I feel very sure that I would never have had the wonderful opportunities and career that I had, if I had been taught by the slowly and carefully route of the 'no two pirouettes until you can do a clean single' school of thought..

[rowan]

I don't subscribe to Dancing Times and haven't read the article. However, from Ribbons' first post - "he questions the motivation of British students and says that there can be an element of sitting back on their laurels and a sense of entitlement."

Can anyone tell me if Powney actually discussed technique, "showiness", the advanced skills or otherwise, etc, of foreign students compared to British ones, or did he just discuss the issue of "motivation"? While possibly related, the topics of motivation and advanced skills are different things, it seems to me.

[straceydor]

On Sky Arts I watched The Bolshoi: Dancing for Russia. They were talking about the fact that Russian people had in the past been given free tickets to see ballets and that there was funding given by the government.  It seems that "Russians" have pride in their ballet artists and could name many of them where as in England many could not name one artist or if they could it would be a retired dancer.  On this site there has been threads about school teachers not appreciating the commitment that dancers have this because they have no pride in English ballet /dancers.

What I am trying to say is that other countries have, or have in the past saw the potential in dancers and have encouraged this by paying for lessons, using former students to mentor and to instruct.  They the other countries have promoted their dancers much more than England has ever done so.

Sorry if my post doesn't make sense

[Harwel]

Rowan, Christopher Powney also discusses the tendency to 'over school' students, thereby not letting them dance with abandon because they are 'not ready'. And the need for developing artistry aswel as technique.

[drdance]

It's interesting to see the discussion on the new RAD work helping to train younger dancers, and I totally agree - I think the RAD work has been carefully planned and choreographed to train young dancers in the safest and most effective way physiologically, whilst really helping them to DANCE and develop artistry., and I look forward to seeing students progress through from pre-primary all the way to the vocational grades using the newer, improved approach . However, if all our pre-professional dancers go to one of the 'big 4' at age 11, and are taken 'back to basics' and trained like carbon copies of each other, all that might be in vain.

[aileen]

Betterankles, was the boarding school which you were attending at 9 a UK vocational school?

 

Dancers in UK companies seem to get injured a lot these days and the UK trained ones get injured just as much as the others. Personally, I think that stress type injuries (as opposed to injuries as the result of falls or accidents) are down to physique rather than training. Some dancers (eg Carlos Acosta and Tamara Rojo) seem to have had very few injuries throughout their long careers (both are now 40, I believe) whereas others who are still in their twenties are plagued with injuries. Despite the less cautious training of the past, dancers didn't seem to get injured nearly as much as they do today, even with a heavier workload (regularly 8 shows a week and over 200 performances a year by the RB during the war).

[Pups_mum]

Betterankles, was the boarding school which you were attending at 9 a UK vocational school?

 

Dancers in UK companies seem to get injured a lot these days and the UK trained ones get injured just as much as the others. Personally, I think that stress type injuries (as opposed to injuries as the result of falls or accidents) are down to physique rather than training. Some dancers (eg Carlos Acosta and Tamara Rojo) seem to have had very few injuries throughout their long careers (both are now 40, I believe) whereas others who are still in their twenties are plagued with injuries. Despite the less cautious training of the past, dancers didn't seem to get injured nearly as much as they do today, even with a heavier workload (regularly 8 shows a week and over 200 performances a year by the RB during the war).

Could that be anything to do with the current emphasis on extreme flexibility? I'm no expert, but looking back at footage of dancers in the past there didn't seem to be as much focus on flexibility - obviously the dancers were still flexible, but not in the same way as todays dancers by the looks of things. Maybe they were less injury prone in the past as they generally had less hyper flexible joints?

[rowan]

Rowan, Christopher Powney also discusses the tendency to 'over school' students, thereby not letting them dance with abandon because they are 'not ready'. And the need for developing artistry aswel as technique.

 

OK, so students are both "over-schooled" and at the same time are also "not ready"? That does not speak well for the schooling, I'd say.

[LinMM]

Sorry just a quick reply to Tabitha ........totally agree about Darcey .....she had the most perfect Italian Fouettes.

 

But didn't Darcey receive most of her training at the RBS? So they must have been getting something right back then.....not all that long ago in fact! She was very young when getting main roles etc.

 

After I had read the article on the interview with Powney for the Ballet Circle I did feel a little more relieved as I think some of his statements there are quite reassuring in that he does appear to,be keen to foster individual talent and artistic development and is keen for more success to the Company via the school.

Such a pity he made those negative comments about "British" students really.

[sophika9899]

No LinMM she is a classical ballet student primarily.

[LinMM]

Well Sophika9899 am inclined to agree with you then. One pirouette at that age especially if she is specialising in ballet and at a vocational school does seem a bit underwhelming!

She has another two years to go? Or one?

 

I imagine she will be auditioning for Company work next year or the year after.

Obviously pirouettes are not the only thing and maybe she is a very expressive dancer in other ways but many girls out there will have both!!

[Melody]

Well, training with more artistry would be good, because ballet is an art after all.

 

But still, if, when push comes to shove, the company goes out to Russia and South America to find its potential principals from among the ranks of the hyperextended acrobats who've been trained to look good in competitions, the artistry in the RBS training isn't going to count for much.

[primrose]

At the Bolshoi our experience was that every student in the class was valued by the teacher. Everybody knew who the best students were but every person had the same amount of individual teachers time. Students knew exactly what was expected of them. Students who worked hard were highly praised irrespective of ability. If a student couldnt achieve an exercise then it was broken right down by the teacher and they would both go over and over it until it was achieved. The teacher was always full of praise when this happened. Laziness was not tolerated nor was other students disrespecting each other. Students do not start pointe work until they are 11 years of age. Academic lessons are taught at the Bolshoi just like in England.

I am sorry to say that it must come down to the training in England. My dd spent 18 months at the Bolshoi and the improvements in her dancing were more than huge. I could see the ballerina in her. I do believe that the English students are very motivated. Sadly I do not think they are praised enough. When they get things wrong it is seen as a failure rather than something to learn. They see themselves as a failure when compared to the best or favourites in the class as this is how the teachers make them feel. Every child at the Bolshoi gets the same opportunities to audition to perform not the selected few as in our schools in England. I believe it is the schools that knock the confidence out of our students. There is clearly something not quite right with the training here. England does possess some very talented children who want to work hard but are not given the opportunities.

[primrose]

I found this on wordpress. It is an extract of what my dd wrote about a class she did after Christmas holidays and then about her first duet class when she went into first form. Our first year upper school equivalent She seems so full of excitement.

As with most good teachers here, the first month or so you go right back to basics.. which means that yes we did 2 hours of 16 count tendus for the first week. Everything is really hands on, which was a shock at first but now I see that it is the only way that she can get us into the position we want and so that we can feel what she means.

 

Duet has been interesting, in a good way. I have an awesome teacher, Ilya Rusharkov, who does kind of scare the life out of me! Today I have my 5th class (this is the first year that all of us have done duet.. ever!) and don’t be deceived to think that we do little basic things.. no way! From the 1st class we were doing lifts, pirouettes -everything.

[balletla]

Primrose, your comments about British training ring true.

 

Someone mentioned the Belinda Hatley interview and to quote her directly: "What is ‘wrong’ with the British dancers? Lack of self belief. It’s like everything else in Britain; we always think that others are better than we are at anything. It’s lack of confidence. It’s the Tim Henman syndrome, I really believe that."

 

The link to the full interview is here: http://www.ballet.co.uk/magazines/yr_08/nov08/interview_belinda_hatley.htm

[Melody]

And Christopher Powney is mistaking this for a sense of complacent entitlement? Oh dear....

[LinMM]

Thanks for link to that lovely article Ribbons.

[sarahw]

Thank you Primrose. It is really interesting to hear your dd experience.

[Pas de Quatre]

A couple of years ago RBS ran a series of seminars/masterclasses called Focus on Style where famous teachers from the major schools came to demonstrate, with their pupils. I attended the Vaganova one and was interested to hear that even if the dancer were a Principal, they still had to undergo several years of teacher training at the Vaganova Academy before they were allowed to teach. I believe it is the same at the Bolshoi. This could be one of the reasons why the teaching is so good in Russia!

[Stirrups36]

I find it difficult to comment on an article I can't read. I fact commenting on articles that I haven't read is usually something I try not to do. So I look at what else is available.

 

And the BBO article also has CP's comments about teachers and teaching. He also talks about a lack of competitive instinct, but also talks about what makes British dancers great. It is an open article, as are the ones from imesne brown about the vaganova. Issues with teachers and students are not just a UK problem. The Vaganova article also talks about the role of the company and so any discussion of why there are few UK principals also has to look at the support the companies give. The Russians do seem to support much more after vocational school.

 

BTW, CP also wrote about Dutch students when he started there.

 

But the comments I have read from him make me think the future is bright. We can't go back and change things and I can think of teachers (academically as well as vocationally and with all our children) that on reflection have not added to our children's lives, just as there are others who have had an amazing impact.

 

But we can look forward.

[primrose]

The training in our country does need a shake up. If a child has been awarded a place into a school then they are considered good enough to be there. They deserve the right to have the same attention and opportunities as the more talented dancers. I have seen time again children who dont pick up exercises given a withering look by the teacher and then ignored. The student then loses confidence and it seems to me the respect of other dancers in the class who are all equally wanting the teachers attention. Parents also play a part here. So many are quick to defend the training here whilst calling the advanced abilities of foreign dancers tricks and acrobats. Turning more and faster with perfect tecnique is not a trick. Being able to balance en pointe with leg held higher is ability not a trick.

The dancers in our country want and are able to take the training our foreign nationals receive, I dont believe they are receiving it. I would also like to add that Asian and Russian students have generally a lighter bone density than us Brits which I am sure helps them with their ballet.

I am not saying that the training in England is in any way bad just that it is not enough. The students need to be given more teacher time and pushed harder. Students in turn need to respect the teachers more. This is just general talk as not all teachers or students are the same.

[tabitha]

I could have wept when my DD told me that the general attitude amongst her peers (and some teachers) is that British students aren't very good and don't get picked for anything. This is not in a malicious way, more just in a matter of fact way. The foreign students seem to have more confidence and expect to succeed.

 

Edited to clarify meaning

Edited January 4, 2015 by tabitha

[FLOSS]

Primrose's reference to her daughter's experience of  "hands on" teaching at the Bolshoi school is very telling. I recall some years ago reading the comments of teachers about the difficulty of teaching ballet students when you could no longer touch them because, in the wake of the concerns about child abuse, it was no longer an acceptable practice. The question that they asked about teaching was how were teachers going to ensure that their pupils physically experienced the corrections that they were making if they could no longer use their hands and had to rely exclusively on words.

 

I wonder how long it takes for changes in an institution like the Royal Ballet School to take effect and bear fruit? I seem to recall that Gailene Stock was recruited as head of the Royal Ballet School after Merle Park's tenure to address issues concerning its syllabus and training. Now throughout the tenure of both heads dancers were recruited into the company from the school and some of those who had received most of their training at the school eventually became principals with the company. I am sure that the Royal Ballet School is no different from other schools when it comes to the effect that a change of head can have on a school for good or ill.According to my calculations it is only in fairly recent years that we have started to see dancers enter the company who have received all their training at the school during Miss Stock's headship.It will be interesting to see how far they progress both at home and abroad. It will be at least another twenty years before it will be possible to accurately evaluate her impact on her pupils and by then we could well have seen at least two more heads at the school each of whom will come in with their own ideas about what needs to be altered. The training institutions in France and Russia seem to be less driven by the need to change things at regular intervals than we do here.

 

A very interesting book will one day be written about the Royal Ballet School's history and its changing fortunes particularly those occasions starting in the 1960's when it has had to be sorted out; its changes of syllabus over the years and the reasons for them;its teaching staff and their backgrounds; its change from feeder school for the Royal Ballet companies to a school whose senior section sometimes appears to be geared towards catering for international students and the impact that these changes have had on the companies which it was established to serve. Somehow I don't think that it will be capable of being written any time soon

[primrose]

I dont think they have a sense of entitlement. I think they fight harder for what they want. Because their self esteem has not been crushed they believe more in themselves. Its seen more of a challenge to achieve where sadly a lot of us Brits give up and that is mostly because they believe they arent good enough when really given the training and nurturing they are good enough.

[tabitha]

Agree Primrose. I just edited my post to clarify what I meant because 'sense of entitlement' wasn't quite the right phrase and then I saw your response.

[LinMM]

There is still "hands on" teaching going on here!!

 

At least for adults.......who I will say are 16 plus onwards........certain teachers will ask first if it's okay to touch sometimes....(incidentally the same as yoga and Pilates classes)

As long as you give your permission it is fine. I have found it very helpful on occasions.

 

Where children are concerned I am sure this would be possible via a discussion with child, parent and teacher. If written consent is given then it should be okay.

In the consent form it should be clear that it's only light touching to correct position or slightly extend a position etc.

It's not carte Blanche in any way for teachers to get rough!!

 

Having watched the Royal Ballet for over 40 years now I was thinking what ....if any...are the main overall differences over the years.

 

This is only my opinion of course but I think one of the MAIN differences is that in yester year the dancers were more individual characters ....at least once out of the corps.

Overall technically they are probably better these days (though I think there have always been some very fast turners and dancers who could cross the stage at lightning speed) but perhaps not quite so free in their interpretations of roles.

Just an overall feeling on my part.

[aileen]

I had a glance at that Dancing Times article yesterday evening. I was struck by Powney's comment that he wanted to see the students 'actually dance', whatever that means. Ballet has moved on from Margot Fonteyn's day and much more athleticism and virtuosity is required in all companies and that includes the RB. A lot of modern choreography requires high extensions and extreme plasticity. Audiences want to see the tricks and, in fact, there are plenty of tricks anyway in the old classics such as Swan Lake, Don Quixote and Le Corsaire. Even the SPF variation contains multiple fouettes. There are greater demands on the men too. They are expected to jump higher and perform all sorts of aerial tricks. No longer are they just there to display their ballerina and do a few low lifts. Modern choreographers love high and complex lifts. I've seen some incredibly scary looking lifts, for example, ballerinas being flipped over with one arm (Liam Scarlett in No Man's Land for ENB - my heart was in my mouth when Max Westwell did this) or tossed and twisted in the air (Eagling's Nutcracker and Acosta's Don Q). Then there are the no doubt exhausting running lifts (Deane's in-the-round R&J at the RAH) and the 'dragging round the body' type lifts beloved by MacMillan. All these lifts require almost superhuman strength, control and athleticism. I think that the RBS (and the other schools) need to take a look at their training and make sure that it matches the requirements of the companies. Recently, I read an article about what companies feel the schools should be doing better and the same two things were mentioned by several ADs: the need for greater proficiency in partnering and the need for better pointe work (greater articulation through the foot was referred to by one). I should mention that these ADs were not all in the UK.