Anna C Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Not that I'm a dancer but as a friend of NB and BRB I have the opportunity to watch company class and the dancers of those companies use the barre until centre work commences. As do the ENB dancers. :-) One thing I love most about watching company class is the realisation that even Principal Dancers get corrections from the teacher - and they acknowledge the corrections and take them on board. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Wow there was me thinking it was a hand rail, just somewhere to rest my spare hand. I honestly did know I had to grip the barre until my knuckles went white, I guess then with practice I might eventually be able to pull-up until neither foot touches the floor. I wonder how long I could balance like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 When you find out, let us know! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Even professional dancer gently use the bar, they already know that they can balance, they don't need to prove to themselves that they can hold and balance as they are doing it every day during performances. They use and touch the bar as it is what the teacher is instructing them to do as a part of an exercise. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Hi Tulip That sounds a bit like a cop-out, on things like rise and balance the timing is left to the dancer, I’m one of the few that think that action is important to the point it is one integrated movement and should not be interpreted as separate commands. I would also make the point I’m a thinking dancer and not a passive participant, if I consider there are either benefits of acquiring balance or it’s artistically more pleasing without compromising the underlying technique, then I will go for it. In the past no teacher has found it necessary to corrected me for such actions. That doesn’t mean to say I don’t get corrections, as I most definitely do. As for professionals doing barre every day, well so do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Yes but the professionals are doing barre everyday for over 10 years, some nearly 30 years. Edited February 4, 2014 by mimi66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Perhaps they can balance no feet then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Perhaps the professionals are still learning and feel that they must continue to use their bar. I wonder how they achieved principle roles in companies when they feel they shouldn't let their finger tips leave the bar to do the things you do Michelle. You certainly are one of a few Michelle with a really good sense of humour. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billyelliott Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Ha ha - but it's funny you should mention "pulling up till neither foot touched the floor! I watched a boys class use the barre ( with both hands ) to pull up all the way through the feet to the tip if their toes as if en pointe and some did just leave the floor ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecatsmother Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 IMHO most dancers are extremely intelligent, proactive and hardworking. How would you define a "thinking dancer" Michelle? I wonder if there is such a thing as a "wise" dancer as I seem to have met quite a few of them☺️ 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I wonder if the professional dancers consider themselves 'passive particpants' rather than 'thinking dancers' because they actually dare to follow instruction when they do exercises at the barre? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Hi Balleteacher Someone that is prepared to question if the old ways are necessarily the best because we’ve always done it that way, challenge current thinking, be prepared to go out on a limb and follow what your heart and your head feels is right and develop that thinking to evolve, rather that to stay in the safe haven of tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I suppose when you are a recreational dancer, dancing as a hobby it is ok to think like that Michelle, as long as the teacher is happy about it. Continue to have fun with your dancing, long may it last for you without injury etc. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Michelle is an adult dancer who is not aiming for a professional career as a ballet dancer. Whilst some of her views are irritating and presumptious (she knows better than her teachers, is a more 'thinking' student than the other students etc) they do not matter, provided that her classes are not disrupted and she shows respect to her teachers. I really wouldn't respond to her more provocative comments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Hope you have a good class Fiz. Enjoy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Awww Aileen You spoil sport, I’m bound to get up to mischief, I’m grounded tonight with a severe case of ballet withdrawal due to the tube strike, so I cant go to my classes at ENB as my last class ends after the tube strike kicks in with no service. Never presume that I think my fellow dancers don’t matter or that I deliberately show disrespect to my teachers, challenging ideas is not disrespect in any way shape or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecatsmother Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Starting a new class is always a big step and takes time to settle. Enjoy Fiz. I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion and will not fall into the trap of evoking drama. All I would say is the day I stop learning from others is the day I should stop teaching/dancing. I may not always like what I hear but at times of great personal challenge come opportunities for insight and change. Having said that I feel uneasy reading about teachers who are identifiable being openly criticised on this forum when they will not have the chance to respond and things can be taken out of context. I shall say no more. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I disagree with you, Michelle. Challenging ideas *can* be disrespectful in a class setting, for example, if you are taking up a disproportionate amount of the teacher's time by questioning what you have been asked to do or dance in a way which encroaches upon your fellow students' 'space'. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I do sometimes wonder Michelle what you would have achieved in the ballet world had you started much younger. I don't by this mean your actual dancing but I can't help but think you would have been an amazing choreographer as the best choreography often seems to come from those who challenge existing ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Aileen: Wow this debate is getting exiting. Did anyone tell you, there is a time and a place for everything. One NEVER make a teacher or presenter look silly in front of a class or audience, there are no winners from that. I have never ever done that or even considered it in ballet class, as I have never done that in my professional career in a conference setting either. I’m really not sure where this encroaching thing came from, perhaps you are being inventive. But just to bring some normality back, I did say non of my teachers have ever suggested correction etc by removing my hand from the barre towards the end of an exercise when to me it felt appropriate to do that to enhance ones balance capability. Furthermore I have seen considerably less contact with the barre from a couple of dancers in a class I attended who were Bolshoi trained and qualified, even though they were not actually working, I think they were as near professional as you could get, even so that is not my motivation to copy them, for me it just makes good common sense where appropriate for me. 2Dancersmum I often wonder where I had been If I had started in this field much younger, I certainly would never limit it to being a talented choreographer. Even now I wonder where it will all end, its just those little things that behave like catalysts. Recently I have hired two dance studios, I was offered a stage and recording studio by one organisation, these things have a way of festering before developing into something, unfortunately its very difficult to stop the thinking process, there is always that “JUST MAYBE” glint in ones eye. Edited February 4, 2014 by Michelle_Richer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Starting a new class is always a big step and takes time to settle. Enjoy Fiz. I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion and will not fall into the trap of evoking drama. All I would say is the day I stop learning from others is the day I should stop teaching/dancing. I may not always like what I hear but at times of great personal challenge come opportunities for insight and change. Having said that I feel uneasy reading about teachers who are identifiable being openly criticised on this forum when they will not have the chance to respond and things can be taken out of context. I shall say no more. Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. One thing I always do is look at the bottom of the page to see who's reading a thread. There are always at least one, usually several "guests" reading - which should remind us all that this is a public forum and what we say is visible to the entire internet. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancer Sugar Plum Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) Michelle, Going back to your comments about using the barre for barre work, Tulip is right in that professional dancers don't need to prove to anyone that they can balance. That is not why they do barre work. They 'need' the barre because it helps them with their weight placement and alignment. If you use the barre correctly it tells you about your turnout, strength and weight placement. By strength, I mean the strength in your centre and your strength in holding your turnout. For example, if you were aiming to balance in retire on demi-pointe, and your hips go back (even slightly) on taking your hand off the barre, you know your weight placement has gone off. Or maybe your upper back has gone back (even slightly) when taking your hand off the barre to balance in retire. This means you've lost the hold in your centre. This is why ballet dancers need the barre. It keeps your weight placement in the correct place to allow you to work on other things. It can also tell you when you've become 'off'. Professional dancers don't use the barre for barre work because they are 'a passive participant'. Barre work is not there just because of 'old ways' and 'tradition'. While learning ballet you work on your technique at the barre. Then in the centre you aim to reproduce the same quality of work without a barre to keep you in the right alignment. This, in my opinion, is the hardest thing about ballet. I hope this makes sense to you. Edited February 5, 2014 by Dancer Sugar Plum 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I don't think letting go of the barre to test your placement and balance is always a result of 'ignorance and incompetence' and 'arrogance', mimi66. Sometimes it is very useful to check yourself by lifting the hand off the barre. Obviously if it is done to 'show off' or to intimidate other dancers, that is not good and should rightly be addressed, but It can be helpful. Indeed, some of the new syllabus RAD vocational work includes barre exercises in which the hand is lifted from the barre at the end - no gripping too tightly in the throes of exam nerves! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 Dear Dancer Sugar Plum You have to remember I do a large number of class, I try and take what I consider is best practice of each, and of course there will be differences. At least two of my class usually results in some form of balance off the barre at the end of that movement. Its entirely at the dancer’s discretion as to when they let go of the barre. As I’m a very inexperienced dancer on this forum against the years of training of our fellow members, I need all the balance practice I can get. As it is I cannot hold a retire/releve on balance for the four minute requested by my local teacher at the time, however I did make 55seconds (almost one minute). Anyway to quote our great Anjuli on #253 of this thread, I’m at least trying to dance my barre, for me at least it not a military drill. Balleteacher Your comment “Having said that I feel uneasy reading about teachers who are identifiable being openly criticised on this forum”, I sincerely hope I haven't done that as I would be uneasy about it too. DavidW I really like the comment “that one of the uses of the barre is to prepare the ladies for working with a partner”, Yes I wish we had done this in our Monday afternoon class prior to our centre work, which in this case was part of the Grade 5 performance Enchainment for the schools 50th anniversary Show. unfortunately Adult ballet is not in involved that one. Our class was very small last week only 5 dancers, 2 of the girls and our teacher played the male roll for this part, they kneeled on one foot, while we placed both hands on their right shoulder, developped our right leg out and up to the ceiling. The teacher was my male partner and we were positioned away from the mirror, I really didn’t know where my leg and turnout was, I couldn’t see it. It felt strait but probably wasn’t. But then we were only learning this sequence and without a dought I will check that on the barre next week before we add to this sequence again (that’s initiative). We were told it had been adapted from an Egyptian ballet, a really nice piece. That’s my kind of centre work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecatsmother Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 As I think has been said in the past it is always worth reading through any post and thinking before pressing send. If organisations, workshop venues or standards of classes are mentioned then many will know the teachers to whom you refer or can find out easily. I personally see no harm in discussing workshops/classes etc in terms of sharing experiences but you may wish to consider it the other way around as in I do not recall anybody making derogatory comments about identifiable members of adult ballet classes so should this be different for teachers and organisations? It is extremely easy to discuss an issue that is difficult without using any identifiable features. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I don't think letting go of the barre to test your placement and balance is always a result of 'ignorance and incompetence' and 'arrogance', mimi66. Sometimes it is very useful to check yourself by lifting the hand off the barre. Obviously if it is done to 'show off' or to intimidate other dancers, that is not good and should rightly be addressed, but It can be helpful. Indeed, some of the new syllabus RAD vocational work includes barre exercises in which the hand is lifted from the barre at the end - no gripping too tightly in the throes of exam nerves! Nice of you to say so, I feel a bit less ashamed of the mistakes I made in my early adult ballet days! Though I write red faced here that what I did was a bit more than testing - I thought it was a good idea to do the barre as if I was in the centre. Hence the wording "ignorance and incompetence".... Hasten to add that it never occured to me to frown others using barre in my class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) As I think has been said in the past it is always worth reading through any post and thinking before pressing send. If organisations, workshop venues or standards of classes are mentioned then many will know the teachers to whom you refer or can find out easily. I personally see no harm in discussing workshops/classes etc in terms of sharing experiences but you may wish to consider it the other way around as in I do not recall anybody making derogatory comments about identifiable members of adult ballet classes so should this be different for teachers and organisations? It is extremely easy to discuss an issue that is difficult without using any identifiable features. Balleteacher, I am also worried about this. In fact, I can identify quite few individuals from the information provided, and that's without turning to google search. Recently in another thread it became clear that a lot of people read this forum as "guests", and in this occasion the very person (who are not members of this forum) and those who are close to that person have been reading the forum and were very concerned about the things being said about them... Edited to add that I am not an insider or in a ballet related profession, just an amature dancer. And it really concerns me that even someone like myself can easily identify people mentioned by the posts. Edited February 5, 2014 by mimi66 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 As I think has been said in the past it is always worth reading through any post and thinking before pressing send. If organisations, workshop venues or standards of classes are mentioned then many will know the teachers to whom you refer or can find out easily. I personally see no harm in discussing workshops/classes etc in terms of sharing experiences but you may wish to consider it the other way around as in I do not recall anybody making derogatory comments about identifiable members of adult ballet classes so should this be different for teachers and organisations? It is extremely easy to discuss an issue that is difficult without using any identifiable features. Wise words Balleteacher. I don't attend any form of dance class but I have identified a couple of the teachers mentioned on this thread. As mimi66 says, if I can identify people then it would be easy for many members of this forum to do the same. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 Wow what observations girls: 1 My comments are provocative. 2 My views are irritating and presumptuous 3 I know better than my teachers. 4 I criticise teachers who are identifiable 5 I am a more 'thinking' student than the other students. 6 I frown on others using barre in my class. 7 Other students do not matter. I guess this “Bad Girl” must be character building for her “Black Swan “ image to go with the tutu, best I guess the dance right then, otherwise I will loose all street cred on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Welcome Petunia I have a feeling this is not going to be a good day for me with the tube strike still on in London. Although the Victoria Line is down as Special Service, I don’t think its picking up at King Cross where I get in, or dropping off at Victoria. I’ve checked busses for that route and there is a No73 but it takes 45minutes. The real challenge will come tonight when My London Amateur Ballet session finishes at 9.30pm, the 170 bus usually picks up just out side RAD HQ at Battersea a minute or two to 10pm, and I need to get on board my train from Kings Cross to Peterborough before midnight otherwise my return ticket is invalid, furthermore I’m likely to incur another £7.00 parking charge at Peterborough station, so it could be an expensive and frustrating night. It looks like the same pandemonium with the underground next week too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 To be honest Michelle, if people don't absolutely have to go to London today I would advise against attempting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle_Richer Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Hi Spannerandpony I agree with you, I didn't go on Tuesday and missed my two ENB classes, I wasn't so bothered about that as my level 3 teacher is away for a couple of weeks. But with LAB we are constantly on rehearsal for our Gala Show doing more than one rep, and I missed the first session so at least I'm caught up now, I don't want that to drift behind as we do progress quite quickly. Edited February 6, 2014 by Michelle_Richer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) I feel a bit guilty but I am secretly pleased about the tube strike....(sorry!). Yes, it is a bother to get to work and back, but I know there will be less people in the class tonight, so the grand allegro portion of the class will be fun! After having refrained from grand allegro (due to the condition affecting balance), I am desparate for some big jumps. So looking forward to tonight's class. Edited February 6, 2014 by mimi66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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