Simply Adult Ballet: the progress of one adult dancer who took up ballet later in life

[Thecatsmother]

IMHO any plies with that weight load are unsafe. It may be worth getting a second opinion from another physio re your activities outside of class. There are several particularly experienced dance physios in London if this is a route you wish to pursue.

 

My only concern is your safety and those of others who might read this. Tendinitis and bursitis are both caused by inflammation and as such will require rest. If it is bursitis around your heal then it is also worth looking at your shoes as some can rub and make this worse. Repeated movement of the Achilles area will undoubtedly irritate something which is already inflamed so it is important for anyone in this situation to reduce inflammation through rest, ice and gradually work towards gentle strengthening to prevent chronicity of injury.

 

In relation to exercise clips, Scottish ballet brought out a good gentle strengthening and mobilising program in the new year which seems safe and useful to all. I think it's on You Tube. I do also like Darcey Bussell's Pilates DVD as a general safe form of conditioning. It's nice as is to soothing music as well-providing this does not put you to sleep????

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

Plies should be a very 'in and up' movement, where all your energy is focused on keeping turnout and not letting your centre decrease the hold/power. It gets harder as you reach the depth of the full plie. This is why they are a technically very difficult excercise to get correct. Isn't there a saying that plies are the first thing you learn and the last thing you master?

 

Injury can happen if this energy relaxes so that more pressure goes out onto the knees. Apart from being dangerous, it could also build up bulkier outer thigh muscles, which is the last thing you need as a ballet dancer, whatever your level or ambitions. So adding extra weight onto plies surely would make that even more of a possibility...?

Edited January 8, 2014 by Dancer Sugar Plum

[mimi66]

Michelle, I agree with many of the posts above, please get a second opinion from a physio specialising in dancers.  Or, could you not see the one who taped you last week, for instance?

 

Just so that we can all compare, I am writing what my physio (who is not a dancer nor dance specialist) did for me after my injury.

 

Luckily I have never had ankle problems yet (touch wood!), but when I had a back problem (mini-disc herniation), my physio banned me from any exercise (other than gentle walking) until the pain was reduced, then gave me some core strengthing exercises (nothing exceeded a set of 20, though!) which was revised constantly (I went to see her x2 a week).  On each session we had one-to-one on how the exercise should be done, and each time I saw her she would correct me.

 

Then after 2 weeks of that, I was allowed back in the ballet class (x2 weeks max) but with legs no higher than 30 degree,no turns, no jumps.  That continued for 2 weeks (with the exercise) then I was allowed to turn on both legs  (legs still 45 degrees) . After another two weeks  I could do turns on one leg, but no jumps, legs no higher than 90 degrees, etc....I think it took me about 8 weeks to do a full class twice a week (intermediate level,no advance allowed yet) with caution.  During that time I kept seeing my physio x2 a week and each time she checked me out then checked how I was executing the exercise she gave me.

 

While I am aware that each case would be different and my case was not Achilles area, I would expect any physio would pracitice the equivalent level of caution (also I was much younger and lighter in weight then!) , so I  must say I am very surprised if what you have stated in your post is what your physio acutually said or atucually intended to say!

 

I know at the moment you are inpatient to go back to ballet, which is understandable. But I really think it helps with your ambition if you had a serious review of your dancing (and related exercise) schedule.  You certainly need to be guided by qualified person (ie dance teachers) how you learn ballet. Before you come to ballet you might have got away with "cut-and-paste" bits of information you like from internets and books.  But with ballet, without having a thorough understanding of how to learn ballet (which comes only with years of training, I am afraid) you cannot just cut-and-paste your learning method.  You might think that you are "fast tracking" yourself, but in reality you are fast tracking yourself to the opposit direction to where you want to be.

 

I am aware that this is not what you would like to hear, but I am saying this mostly for those who are reading this board, and then of course for you - dancing is such a precious thing to do, and perhaps for you even more as you came to it very late - I would like you to continue dancing ballet as long as you can. We all love dancing so we all know what it means to keep dancing...

Edited January 8, 2014 by mimi66

[aileen]

I find it hard to believe that it is advisable to exercise strenuously a part of the body which is injured and in the early stages of healing. Frankly, Michelle, I'm incredulous that your physio has advised you to do so many repetitive exercises or, at least, has not advised you against it. Plies with weights sound like a bad idea as well. I really don't think that any person, particularly one of mature years, can 'speed up' progress in ballet by just doing more and more classes and excessive exercising without some - possibly serious - injuries. The body needs time to rest and to heal. Professional dancers spend years perfecting their technique and have gradually increased the amount of dance which they do on a daily basis over many years.

[Mumofballetmaddaughter]

Hi Michelle

I was diagnosed with tendinopathy last October and have also been given the Protocol exercises to do by my physios. One is based in my health centre and the other is the head of physio at the hospital where I had foot/ankle surgery last May.  I was advised to do just the 'drop' part of the exercise (both feet flat on the edge of a stair at the same time) 2 x 15 reps twice a day as due to the operation I had, I am still building up strength in both my calf and foot so am unable to rise up and take all of my weight on the affected foot. I was led to believe however that tendinopathy is a degeneration of the Achilles rather than inflammation, for which one can only hope for improvement as opposed to a total cure.   Both physios have cautioned against doing anything which puts the Achilles under too much stress and are taking the 'less is more' slow approach.

I wish you all the best.    

[Anna C]

I'm "liking" your advice and your physio's cautious approach, Mumofballetmaddaughter, as opposed to liking the fact that you had to have surgery. :-)

[Anjuli_Bai]

I read this very carefully:

 

"a) 200 rep rises in batches of 50 spaced through the day.

 200 Rep resistance band workout each foot in batches of 50 before alternating the foot
c) 50 rep demi-plie’s with a pelvic floor exerciser for resistance
d) 30 rep grand plie whist on demi-point carrying a 20kg load via a spinnaker bar."

 

and find this utterly outside my ability to comprehend how this could possibly be a positive way forward.  If a physio or anyone else suggested or indicated to me this was a good regimen - I would run out of his/her office/lab/surgery, whatever..  But, that is just my opinion.  

 

It seems to me that each of us has given our opinion and overwhelmingly we are questioning the methodology of this kind of training.  We have each also voiced our hope that Michelle experiences a rapid and complete recovery.  No one wishes otherwise.

 

That Michelle chooses this course is her option - she is an adult with her experiences, plans and desires and she is entitled to them.  She has the option to consider what is said here - or not.  In either case - I am sure we all - and that includes me - wish her  many years of happy healthy dancing.

 

My concern, then, moves on to another area - a youngster who (the title of this thread notwithstanding) may read this thread.  I have long ago concluded that Michelle will follow the road she chooses (as she should and has the right to do) no matter what is said in response.  But for the youngster who may read this thread - that is another matter.

 

As I have said in many other threads, after many years (decades) of thought and discussion with other dance professionals and a letter exchange with the orthpedic doctor who cared for New York City Ballet after he wrote in an article for Dance Magazine, that grand pliés in any position other than 2nd puts the knees at risk.  To do grand pliés with an additional weight is totally beyond - for me - anything with which I would have any part in doing or advising.

 

For me - and I emphasize the "for me" - the list of reps with which I began this post and pasted from Michelle's post (and thus hopefully accurate) - is not even remotely something I would do or advise.

 

I hope that any youngster reading this thread will notice how each of us has reacted to this kind of regimen and carefully discuss any inclination to duplicate it with her/his parents, teachers, and other professionals.

 

So - let me say this more clearly......

 

If you are a dance student and are thinking of expanding your training regimen with reps as quoted above and/or adding weights - please consult your teacher, parents and other professionals.  

 

The major dance schools throughout the world have produced beautiful dancers without this kind of training.

[Michelle_Richer]

Wow what a response:

 

Lin

The sixth position I guess is a slang term to cover feet in parallel. Is a position used in classes often prior to Plie’s to warm the joints from the hips down to the feet, mostly by turning the feet in and out and flexing the feet via tendu’s in 6th and 1st, also rolling up and down the ankles in plies. Mostly done facing the barre, I’m sure you will have done these before.

 

I’m sorry I inadvertently left a little bit out of the Load Baring Grand Plie’s its in 2nd and you are right, the whole workout is done on demi point.

 

OK about booking the Giselle Workshop for Feb, I was already booked for that one, I’ve transferred the last Swan lake one I missed to the next in March, but I have also been chivvying RAD this afternoon on the phone to get the application forms out, particularly for the 26th of Jan Swan Lake Workshop which I will now make. Mind you it must be around a 200mile car journey each way for me as there is no suitable trains at the times I need.

 

General:

I guess it’s the way I tell them!

The list of reps I posted was based on a suggestion from Spannerandponey that I check them with my physio. At no point did I suggest I was still using these whilst I had an injury. In fact everything ceased, not even floor barre.

 

As it is, I will resume Salsa on Friday evening, Sunday I will resume fitness with Scottish Ballets Core de Ballet which is mostly floor barre which I tend to use as a cool-down, then gradually increase during the week until Thursday when I restart with my LAB classes.

 

As for my Physio’s opinion, as stated, this is based partly on observation of my demonstrations and partly on the fact that my training program has been going for over 18months and the fact that my body has adapted to it. Also some of this originally came from adapting some of my martial arts training where it accepted that strength building means exercising into fatigue.

 

Also at one time I documented my training program (Morning Workout), I circulated that with two ballet of my teachers and the lady that runs our Salsa group, she did ballet until she was 20, her mum was a professional ballet dancer and later a ballet teacher. Her only comment to me was, how often was I going to do this? once a week? She was somewhat surprised it was a daily workout. This lady was a schools PE teacher and does a lot of dance / pe training privately now. I used to do a Sunday morning “Awesome Abs” class with her and a few other girls, I remember when we were using abs boards, the others used to get 20 reps to do, I used to get 40’s and 50’s with her. One day I ask her why?, she said “I know you can do them”. My other teachers whilst surprised also have the advantage of knowing me well and my capability, did not criticise it adversely.

 

Coming back to the Heel-drop protocol where this all began, after the all clear next Tuesday, that will be resumed, but this time only as drops. Personally I find that procedure quite tame and incredibly easy to do without injury. However it will to some extent feature in my long term workout plan if nothing else to help against Achilles Tendinopathy reoccurring in the future.

 

Finally as many on this thread have recently emphasised it takes a very long time to acquire the necessary skills to dance, would you all suggest I give up now? Or what?

 

 

My cooldown

Edited January 8, 2014 by Michelle_Richer

[Tulip]

Michelle people only seem to me to be supporting you, but some of your responses seem to imply that people are contradicting you. You are a grown adult , it's your body to do what you want with as only you are responsible for yourself. If you become seriously injured then only you can be responsible for that. It has been a very interesting read this thread and I feel everyone has been so supportive and kind giving their time to support you. I hope I haven't miss understood this thread and got the wrong end of the stick???

[Anna C]

Nobody is suggesting you give up, Michelle. It is very clear just how important Ballet is to you and I think there are many people who would empathise with that.

 

However, there is - of course - a happy medium between "giving up" and doing literally hundreds of reps of exercises every day. I am most relieved to hear that you have stopped this exercise regime while your injury is acute. BUT I can't help thinking that the weight bearing pliés using the spinnaker barre added to all those hundreds of reps of other exercises must have contributed to or directly caused your injury. I am worried that if you don't ease back on the quantity and types of exercises you are doing, that acute tendinopathy will become chronic or even irrepairable. The body is a fragile thing with so many miniscule bones and ligaments that even "just" ballet takes its toll - without subjecting your body to the kinds of work you are talking about.

 

Knowing just how important Ballet is in your life makes me urge you in the strongest terms to be a bit more gentle with your body - otherwise I fear it is going to pay you back big time and stop you dancing for good. I would hate to see that happen.

[mimi66]

What is 6th position?

 

Here it is.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_of_the_feet_in_ballet  It is NOT a slang term.  Perhaps more relavant to post 1900- works and contemporary, but nevertheles one of the ballet postions (I didn't know that there were 7th as well!)

 

Once in a class, we were shown how to stand in the correct 6th position.  The shape of one's lower body looked totally different - even my bowed legs looked much straighter!  It is not easy, and I wouldn't say I can do it pefectly (or even rather well)!

 

But we all aim to get closer to the correct position, bit by bit.  I think that's what matters.

[LinMM]

I think S and P has really expressed what I wanted to say!!

 

If you enjoy ballet of course it's a lovely hobby to continue with and so you should! The classes will hopefully keep you on the road to perfection and the workshops can help to fulfil your joy to express yourself in dance. In the end that's all you need I think. And if you are careful you still should have a lot of dancing years ahead of you. So no need to give up!! Many older people even those who have never done ballet earlier in their life can enjoy ballet as a hobby albeit an all consuming one sometimes if they get the bug!

 

The other more "gym" like aspect of what you do, you obviously enjoy too but I personally do not see this as necessary or part of a ballet regime. But if you enjoy "workouts" for their own sake that's fine but just be careful. Exercising into fatigue and all that, is really only okay if you have some sort of properly qualified personal trainer who is keeping a very careful eye on you as a top athlete may well have. .....because as Ive said before there is a fine line between being super fit and unwell and in the injury zone.

The older you are the more you have to "listen" to the body however annoying this may be sometimes.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Spannerandponey

 

Thank you for those kind words. In my martial arts training things do get somewhat intense, so what I’m doing is actually rather tame, but I guess the rises have done their job as they don’t even bring a sweet on anymore. I think also the years I did with marital arts I never had an injury other than pulling a muscle in my arm with double reps with weights as it became too easy, even in sparing I never got hurt as several of my friend did sustain broken bones at one time or another. I guess to some extent you tend to build a self image of being indestructible.

 

Since I’ve been doing ballet I have sustained far more injuries, but not due to ballet itself. The closest thing and I think responsible for the developing Achilles issue was jumping on solid floors, both in my local class and early on at my dance fever class where the trainers I had were unsuitable in terms of shock absorption, that took a while to find suitable ones which I now have. I remember one evening being at a Salsa party where we were doing a party dance which involved jumping, I guess my ballet training did give me higher jumps, but not on a hard floor in ballroom type dance shoes, that stopped me dancing for a couple of week.

 

Mimi66

Thanks for finding that reference to 6th and 7th. I have checked Gail Grant’s “Technical Manual and Dictionary of Classical Ballet”, and that doesn’t go above 5th, generally that’s my bible.

 

 

Lin

What all this talk about a hobby, this feels more like a job. I would never spend this amount of money on a hobby. Just been looking at the logistics tonight of doing the Romeo and Juliet workshop in Edinburgh, followed by Scottish ballet in Glasgow the next day, with Northern Ballet on my way back to ENB the very next day.

 

I do think there is a place for gym type of workouts to keep up ones physical fitness for ballet, as they say “Use it or loose it”. I take your point about the personal trainer, I will see if I can squeeze one in, the one that take me for the Body Balance class twice a week, I have already spoke to her, but this could lead to even more controversy on this thread because this gal never gives up.

 

Janet

Sorry I forgot, thanks for the video, it’s very much like our body balance classes, but we don’t have the cardio bit.

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

Michelle,

 

As Spannerandpony has said, nobody is suggesting you give up, and that includes me for sure. Personally, I don't like describing ballet as a 'hobby' because it's so time-consuming and it's not something you can do occaisonally and see progress. I think we all understand how keen you are to get back into regular classes.

 

You mentioned that in martial arts training it is, 'accepted that strength building means excerising into fatigue'. The problem with this in ballet is that it's not enough to get the step or movement done. It has to be done with the right muscles. For example, one of the most difficult things to learn is to use the under thigh muscles. I think it's a fair generalisation to make that we would automatically use the outer thigh muscles to do the work for us. If dancers don't learn to use/activate the inner thigh muscles, the dancer would build up the outer thigh muscles, which is the last thing any ballet dancer would want. With sport, such as martial arts, it is less 'fussy' or particular about which muscles should be used. Therefore I would suggest 'strength building means excercising into fatigue' is less helpful for ballet.

 

I also have some comments to make about the fact you had spoken about your regime to a lady, who had done ballet until she was 20. You said the lady's response was, 'I know you can do them'. However, I stand by what I said, that ballet is very different working out in the gym or doing sport. I know that dancers in training are advised against going to the gym, or doing a lot of sport (probably except swimming) because it builds up the wrong muscles for ballet. I do not know, obviously, what level the lady had danced to when she stopped doing ballet, but I think most dancers who have had serious training would suggest the extra weights and the reps would be in danger of building up the wrong muscles you need for ballet.

 

You also mentioned about your teachers reaction, 'whilst surprised also have the advantage of knowing me well and my capability, did not criticise it adversely'. Purely speaking from experience, I would be concerned that your teachers did not feel they could 'criticise' you about it in case you saw it as a insult. Or they didn't know how to word their concerns because you were so keen to go ahead with it. Or perhaps they felt they could not 'criticise' it because you are an adult and they felt they would be unable to stop you from pursuing your regime, even though they may not have liked the sound of it very much.

 

I am only giving my opinion and suggestions here. As many have said on this thread, it's just out of a concern that you may do irreparable damage to your body.

 

I also have to mention that I support Anjuli's concern, that a youngster could read into this discussion that it's possible to fast-track ballet training. So far, it has not appeared on Balletcoforum, but there are other ballet forums I've looked at which have lots of posts (I assume from female teenagers) asking questions along the lines of, 'I started ballet at 14, could I make it pro? Is there a way I could make it to a company?' It would be assumed that the poster would like info on how it's possible to 'fast-track' training to get to the level she (or maybe he) wants to get to. Even though this thread has a title that shows it's about adult ballet, no-one can control what appears in search results on search engines like Google. So just in case any part of this thread would show up in search engines that there is a way to fast-track ballet training, I support what Anjuli has said in her earlier post, that if you are a dance student who is concerned about your progress and would like to increase your training regime after reading this thread, please talk to your teacher(s) and parents before you start adding to your training yourself.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Dancer Sugar Plum

[aileen]

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. If Michelle is over-exercising or exercising inappropriately she will find this out for herself when her current injury does not heal properly or she sustains further injuries which may just be niggling but not severe enough to prevent her dancing (but sufficiently serious to prevent her from really enjoying her dancing) or, alternatively, may be so bad that she has to stop dancing for prolonged periods of time or give up dancing altogether. Michelle seems to be someone who only takes advice when it accords with her own wishes and there is probably little point in anyone giving her further advice on the subject of her exercising. The old adage 'More haste; less speed' comes to mind.

[Terpsichore]

Michelle_Richer

 

I showed my nose in the "improvers" class at Northern Ballet Academy on Tuesday because I have to go to London today and stayed for the choreography class which turned out to be a continuation of the improvers class (where incidentally I made a complete fool of myself by landing flat on my face trying to do pose pirouettes which I had not really mastered).

 

Anyway while waiting for one class to end and another to begin I was talking to one of the other students who remarked that I must be quite dedicated coming "all the way from Huddersfield" (I actually come from Holmfirth which is further). I said that was nothing, I knew of one student who came all the way from Lincoln. This lady appeared to know you and was impressed  by your enthusiasm and energy. I mentioned that you and I communicate through an internet forum on ballet and that you had said that you had not been too well lately though I did not go into details. She was very sorry to hear that and sent her wishes as do I. I don't know her name but she was one of two students with a Scottish accent.

 

I hope you enjoy Le Corsaire on Saturday, I must say I envy you that though I will be at another ballet event, namely the AGM and party of the London Ballet Circle where I hope to meet some other people who don't switch off when I want to talk about ballet.

[LinMM]

Thanks Mimi for the info on 6th position! I had sort of guessed in the end but for some reason have never heard it expressed as 6th position before!

But I agree even in parallel position everything has to be correctly aligned so ankles aren't rolling in etc so some use of the turnout muscles is involved in aligning ankles knees and hips but not full use.

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

One more point I feel I should add is about pointe work. Michelle, unless I am mistaken, I believe you have now been doing ballet for about a year, or just over a year? If I am correct, it concerns me that your teacher believes you are ready to do pointe work. This is not a criticism on any of the classes you attend. I bring this up because I was told that adults need to be doing 1.5 hours of class 3 times a week (or the equivalent) for at least 2.5 years AND have reached a certain technical proficiency before they should be put en pointe. Although adults don't need to worry about the bones in the feet being hard enough, etc, I was told they still need to reach a certain level before they could do pointe.

 

I hasten to add this is also not a criticism on your technique, Michelle. I am just very curious (or maybe very worried?) that there are teachers around in the UK who take such a casual approach to putting students on pointe. Would they treat children and teenagers the same? I worry that the answer might be 'yes'. I also worry it means they don't care about their students' safety or their feet...

Edited January 9, 2014 by Dancer Sugar Plum

[Anjuli_Bai]

One more point I feel I should add is about pointe work. Michelle, unless I am mistaken, I believe you have now been doing ballet for about a year, or just over a year? If I am correct, it concerns me that your teacher believes you are ready to do pointe work. This is not a criticism on any of the classes you attend. I bring this up because I was told that adults need to be doing 1.5 hours of class 3 times a week (or the equivalent) for at least 2.5 years AND have reached a certain technical proficiency before they should be put en pointe. Although adults don't need to worry about the bones in the feet being hard enough, etc, I was told they still need to reach a certain level before they could do pointe.

 

I hasten to add this is also not a criticism on your technique, Michelle. I am just very curious (or maybe very worried?) that there are teachers around in the UK who take such a casual approach to putting students on pointe. Would they treat children and teenagers the same? I worry that the answer might be 'yes'. I also worry it means they don't care about their students' safety or their feet...

 

 

I think there is yet another point to consider when teaching adults and considering whether to allow a student to go on pointe - and that is weight.  

 

Generally speaking, the majority of those people who are overweight tend to be adults.  No matter how strong the technique, all the weight will be going up on pointe.  The foot will be asked to support that weight.  As it is, we were not constructed to carry our weight on the tips of the toes.  When people are over weight more pounds are added for the same skeleton to support.

 

I had a lovely student who had a very strong technique but she was much overweight.  Technically she was ready for pointe and of course she wanted to do it.  But I could not in good conscience allow her to do that.  I had a very quiet conference with her and explained my reasoning.  Fortunately, we knew each other well and she completely understood.

 

It turned out that this proved to be the incentive she needed to lose weight and eventually she did go on pointe with success.

 

Why am I posting this here  in this thread?  Because the thread  is about adult ballet.  To me, this means adult ballet issues in general - not any one person in particular.  

 

Do I have to say the following?  Yes - I do.......please note:

 

 

THE ABOVE POST IS NOT AIMED AT ANYONE IN THIS FORUM OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE UNIVERSE.  IT SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN PERSONALLY - IT IS A CONCERN HOWEVER TO ANYONE WHO TEACHES BALLET AND ANYONE WHO IS CONSIDERING TAKING POINTE CLASS.

[mimi66]

Anjuli, I applaud you for your post above.  It is stating the obvious but somehow currently we are inhibited from saying these things... resulting in knowing silence even from some teachers which meant well (ie no hurt feelings) but probably contributing to injuries in one form or another at some point in the future.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Terpsichore

 

Yes I know the lady you mentioned, she is really nice. One my first visit to Northern after class she took me on a conducted tour of Leeds, she was really into architecture, it really interesting. I love the girls at that class, we usually go for a coffee / bun and a chat afterwards at the café near the BBC. Have you been yet?. Very few classes are as sociable, some are plain and simply hard work.

At Christmas if they are unwilling to go out and socialise, I at least make the effort and take chocolates in, anyway it give me an excuse to eat one.

 

That second class for this term is a continuation as you say, it’s to cover allegro and turns which the first does not. Next term it will be Annemarie’s “creative choreography” for preparation for the adult’s performance on Saturday 5 July. Whilst I will always do that second class I will have to miss the performance as I will be doing the LAB Gala at the Bloomsbury theatre on the same day, but if possible I will try and do there dress rehearsal. After that I have a whole string of performances.

 

My next trip to Northern is likely to be the 25th Feb, I’ve checked out the logistics to it, it’s a little different to what I had planned but basically I’m staying in Edinburgh rather than Glasgow. Sunday its Romeo and Juliet WS in Edinburgh, Monday train to Glasgow to Scottish Ballet and back to my hotel in Edinburgh after class, then early morning train from Edinburgh to Leeds with change at York for Northern Ballet, After class just time for coffee with girls (Important), then train onto London for my two classes with English National Ballet in the evening. So hopefully I may see you that morning at Northern.

 

Hi Dancer Sugar Plum

I always view your remarks with interest and the way you try and discredit mine.

“I do not know, obviously, what level the lady had danced to when she stopped doing ballet” I do not know but the fact her mum was a professional dancer and her daughter basically grew up in theatres, I think should say something, Im not sure at what point her mum became a ballet teacher, but of course she is retired now but often asks after me, although we have never actually met. You mentioned weights developing the wrong muscles, I take your point on that, but in reality its only a small part of my workout. I positively don’t use ankle weights which I did for marital arts, although small (0.5kg) weights were used at one of the extend barre classes. Similarly I no longer do press-ups other than the few we get as part of our Body Balance class, again I could knock off 50 of those and not think about it, but for sure it will build muscle bulk.

 

In the case of the two teachers that read my plan, had they felt it was dangerous or inappropriate I am positive they would have told me. I always seek a close and honest relationship between all of my teachers, not only do I try and go the extra mile, I expect them to do too, that’s just the way I am.

 

I see we are back to technique again, I think we’ll just accept in your terms of being the time served expert that its rubbish, as I don’t necessarily follow what my class mates do or what the teacher instructs when it comes to ending plie’s or Pirouette preparation at the barre, on the rise or releve both hands come off the barre as I go up, often I end up with the arms in 5th when she later corrects to first, for me that’s force of habit. Most of my class mates are still holding the barre to get balanced, for me that’s not asthetically pleasing. I'm not saying I have particularly good balance as I get good days and bad day. I have managed a minute but usually it only tens of seconds, personally I really would like to take that up to 4 minutes, a challenge issued by my local teacher in jest at one time. Arms going into 5th with en dedans pirouette is definitely something I get corrected on when my teacher just looks at me and says “First Michelle”, and I think “Oh s***t”, done it again, its not I cant do it, but 5th looks some much nicer.

You could argue my technique for en dehors pirouettes from 4th is rubbish because again I don’t necessary follow my teacher example or most of the class, my leading arm during preparation is strait (a kin to an arabesque) rather than curved in first, for me it creates a better line, as yet I haven't been corrected on that one. Another thing I sometimes do unless the end of the pirouette is specified is to land in Arabesque where the back leg remains off the ground, just to show off balance. It wouldn't be the first time I've held a conversation with the teacher, done a pirouette, come down to flat foot with the pivoting leg but held the retire and carried on the conversation, but of cause the hands went casually to my hip, I agree appalling technique.

 

In travelling turns again my technique is pretty appalling, although I can spot and travel in a strait line, circle and through a crowd of dancers. If the teacher doesn't specify the ending unfortunately I have a habit of dropping into pirouettes, more properly an en dedans, then swapping the pivoting leg into a en dehors landing into a fully downed curtsy. As I said appalling technique as my teachers have never taught these at any of the classes I attend, but at least I have style and the drive to succeed.

 

Going en pointe, we have established my technique is rubbish, so let have a look at the other attributes. Well there is not just one teacher but two teachers that are willing to take me on en pointe. For me its no big deal as to if I can achieve it or not. I would never draw the conclusion that my teacher are rubbish or have questionable motives for doing so. In any case I think I have only had about three classes possibly four when we lost the time slot for youngsters pantomime rehearsal. There were only 3 adults in that class, one girls that just needed practice as she was already on full pointe, me and another girl that had never done it before. The time we had was spent strengthening the feet through various exercise, the other girl I guess was about 20 years younger than me. One of the exercises was to take the weight on one leg with the other at cou-de-pied and hold for 15 seconds, my friend struggled a bit with that, I flew past a minute then started to go into arabesque and attitude bringing the foot in front, admittedly I couldn’t balance as I still had my fingers lightly holding the barre. For me that was awesome, it felt that I was a lot higher than I really was. The profile on my right leg was good, nearly strait, but my left was much worse, further more I could feel an old knee injury that I had forgot about, whilst I could do the 15 seconds easily on that foot, I didn’t want to push it. Although I had gel ouch pouches on both feet, I was expecting them to get sore very quickly, but on the first class I found my little toe started to get sore so I fitted some gel tubey things to both little toes and that certainly fixed it.

As for number of classes of 3 x 1.5h a week over 2.5 years being the boundary, then I've just reset that for myself. At one time I could nearly double that in one day with 7.5 hours of ballet, but as the Achilles issue started to show I have shed some of the less important classes, needless to say I still do multiple classes most days. I guess my most extreme now is 4 classes which covers a 500 mile round trip where I leave home at 6.30am and arrive back at 1am the following morning ready to leave home again at 10am the same day. Also I do not count the fact that I have my own dance studio and I also hire the same hall as one of my teachers (now ex-teacher), although we are still friends. Neither do I count repertoire Workshops, Master classes or Summer Intensives.

 

Aileen

I think you’ve got it in one, I will always make my own mind up and make my own decision, that way, if its wrong then its my mistake, but never the less I will always push the envelope of what's possible.

Perhaps you can explain where the evidence comes from to show that “More Hast” and “Less Speed” are directly related, I would be most interested in that correlation.

[LinMM]

Well even though I use them myself I guess proverbs should always be taken with a pinch of salt as you can always find one that contradicts another one so you just pick the one that seems appropriate at the time!! There is probably an opposite to "more haste Less speed" but proverbs are not "science" based so just come from lots of common observations over time.......and we've all experienced that feeling when we're trying to do too many things at once so are rushing that somehow we seem to be progressing more slowly......stumbling over ourselves ....very irritating at the time!!

 

I sympathise with your classmates hanging onto the barre to find their balance though!! Remember it is best to get properly aligned first!

I did my first Russian class for about four weeks yesterday and I just could not find my balance....when last time I did the class it was very good and I could take the rises and balances without barre support but I certainly needed it yesterday whether it was aesthetically pleasing to others or not!!

[balletla]

Michelle seems to be someone who only takes advice when it accords with her own wishes and there is probably little point in anyone giving her further advice.

 

I wholly support this. I have read this thread with interest and it seems to mostly consist of people giving Michelle advice which she clearly doesn't want. I know it's difficult to resist giving advice if someone is training in a way that causes concern but perhaps it is time to stop and let Michelle get on with it. She is after all an adult and as she says herself, makes her own decisions. 

[Anjuli_Bai]

I wholly support this. I have read this thread with interest and it seems to mostly consist of people giving Michelle advice which she clearly doesn't want. I know it's difficult to resist giving advice if someone is training in a way that causes concern but perhaps it is time to stop and let Michelle get on with it. She is after all an adult and as she says herself, makes her own decisions. 

 

 

Hear! Hear!  I second that!   

[2dancersmum]

Whilst I agree with Anjuli and Ribbons posts above, I think it should be pointed out that this is a public forum and several posters have made it clear that the advice is directed at anyone reading this forum and was not intended to be taken as personal criticism.  At the end of the day every adult individual will weigh up their options and make their own decisions and an adult coming new to this forum and new to ballet should be able to read all the varying opinions in this thread.

[LinMM]

I think two proverbs which you might like Michelle are "Time waits for no man" and "make hay while the sun shines"

[mimi66]

[...]

Hi Dancer Sugar Plum

I always view your remarks with interest and the way you try and discredit mine.

 

[...]

In the case of the two teachers that read my plan, had they felt it was dangerous or inappropriate I am positive they would have told me. I always seek a close and honest relationship between all of my teachers, not only do I try and go the extra mile, I expect them to do too, that’s just the way I am.

 

I see we are back to technique again, I think we’ll just accept in your terms of being the time served expert that its rubbish, as I don’t necessarily follow what my class mates do or what the teacher instructs when it comes to ending plie’s or Pirouette preparation at the barre, on the rise or releve both hands come off the barre as I go up, often I end up with the arms in 5th when she later corrects to first, for me that’s force of habit. Most of my class mates are still holding the barre to get balanced, for me that’s not asthetically pleasing. I'm not saying I have particularly good balance as I get good days and bad day. I have managed a minute but usually it only tens of seconds, personally I really would like to take that up to 4 minutes, a challenge issued by my local teacher in jest at one time. Arms going into 5th with en dedans pirouette is definitely something I get corrected on when my teacher just looks at me and says “First Michelle”, and I think “Oh s***t”, done it again, its not I cant do it, but 5th looks some much nicer.

You could argue my technique for en dehors pirouettes from 4th is rubbish because again I don’t necessary follow my teacher example or most of the class, my leading arm during preparation is strait (a kin to an arabesque) rather than curved in first, for me it creates a better line, as yet I haven't been corrected on that one. Another thing I sometimes do unless the end of the pirouette is specified is to land in Arabesque where the back leg remains off the ground, just to show off balance. It wouldn't be the first time I've held a conversation with the teacher, done a pirouette, come down to flat foot with the pivoting leg but held the retire and carried on the conversation, but of cause the hands went casually to my hip, I agree appalling technique.

 

In travelling turns again my technique is pretty appalling, although I can spot and travel in a strait line, circle and through a crowd of dancers. If the teacher doesn't specify the ending unfortunately I have a habit of dropping into pirouettes, more properly an en dedans, then swapping the pivoting leg into a en dehors landing into a fully downed curtsy. As I said appalling technique as my teachers have never taught these at any of the classes I attend, but at least I have style and the drive to succeed.

 

[...]

 

Honestly I do not think Dancer Sugar Plum has ever tried to discredit Michelle in any of her posts.  If anything Michelle discredits herself  in her replies to everyone's advice she does not want to hear.

 

What I struggle to understand is that someone who has such a burning desire to improve and the drive for success does not seem to have any desire nor drive to go through some years of learning in the most appropreate and effective manners for her. 

 

Given the way all advices posted, particularly and including those from experienced ballet teachers were not listened to, I can only sympathise with her ballet teachers and physios if they felt they can advice nothing other than what is easy on her ears.

 

After all, an adult learner is ultimately responsible for their own decisons, however uninformed they are.

Edited January 9, 2014 by mimi66

[LinMM]

Or "Fortune favours the bold"

[LinMM]

Just trying to keep a bit of humour on the thread!

[Michelle_Richer]

What I struggle to understand is that someone who has such a burning desire to improve and the drive for success does not seem to have any desire nor drive to go through some years of learning in the most appropreate and effective manners for her.

Two points as you cant leave this alone:

 

Firstly I seem to remember a figure of doing ballet for 15 years, not sure if it was you or not, but how much longer do you realistically think I have left, its possibly less than five years no one really knows, no way am I going to get to the end of my days saying I wish I had done this and life had passed me by. I've far too much fire in my belly for that and I'm by no means passive. I've a lot to achieve in that time, given the opportunity its solo with a full orchestra.

 

Second point, is reason you struggle to understand, the logic behind the reason you think I should struggle to understand ballet and take much longer?

 

 

Believe me when I get good tangle advise I do take it, Balleteacher gave me a link to Ballet Physios, that's where I found mine before she was rubbished on this thread.

 

But hey-ho its like water off a duck back with me.

 

 

 

Lin I love your humour

Edited January 10, 2014 by Michelle_Richer

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

Hi Dancer Sugar Plum

I always view your remarks with interest and the way you try and discredit mine.

“I do not know, obviously, what level the lady had danced to when she stopped doing ballet” I do not know but the fact her mum was a professional dancer and her daughter basically grew up in theatres, I think should say something, Im not sure at what point her mum became a ballet teacher, but of course she is retired now but often asks after me, although we have never actually met. You mentioned weights developing the wrong muscles, I take your point on that, but in reality its only a small part of my workout. I positively don’t use ankle weights which I did for marital arts, although small (0.5kg) weights were used at one of the extend barre classes. Similarly I no longer do press-ups other than the few we get as part of our Body Balance class, again I could knock off 50 of those and not think about it, but for sure it will build muscle bulk.

 

In the case of the two teachers that read my plan, had they felt it was dangerous or inappropriate I am positive they would have told me. I always seek a close and honest relationship between all of my teachers, not only do I try and go the extra mile, I expect them to do too, that’s just the way I am.

 

I see we are back to technique again, I think we’ll just accept in your terms of being the time served expert that its rubbish, as I don’t necessarily follow what my class mates do or what the teacher instructs when it comes to ending plie’s or Pirouette preparation at the barre, on the rise or releve both hands come off the barre as I go up, often I end up with the arms in 5th when she later corrects to first, for me that’s force of habit. Most of my class mates are still holding the barre to get balanced, for me that’s not asthetically pleasing. I'm not saying I have particularly good balance as I get good days and bad day. I have managed a minute but usually it only tens of seconds, personally I really would like to take that up to 4 minutes, a challenge issued by my local teacher in jest at one time. Arms going into 5th with en dedans pirouette is definitely something I get corrected on when my teacher just looks at me and says “First Michelle”, and I think “Oh s***t”, done it again, its not I cant do it, but 5th looks some much nicer.

You could argue my technique for en dehors pirouettes from 4th is rubbish because again I don’t necessary follow my teacher example or most of the class, my leading arm during preparation is strait (a kin to an arabesque) rather than curved in first, for me it creates a better line, as yet I haven't been corrected on that one. Another thing I sometimes do unless the end of the pirouette is specified is to land in Arabesque where the back leg remains off the ground, just to show off balance. It wouldn't be the first time I've held a conversation with the teacher, done a pirouette, come down to flat foot with the pivoting leg but held the retire and carried on the conversation, but of cause the hands went casually to my hip, I agree appalling technique.

 

In travelling turns again my technique is pretty appalling, although I can spot and travel in a strait line, circle and through a crowd of dancers. If the teacher doesn't specify the ending unfortunately I have a habit of dropping into pirouettes, more properly an en dedans, then swapping the pivoting leg into a en dehors landing into a fully downed curtsy. As I said appalling technique as my teachers have never taught these at any of the classes I attend, but at least I have style and the drive to succeed.

 

Going en pointe, we have established my technique is rubbish, so let have a look at the other attributes. Well there is not just one teacher but two teachers that are willing to take me on en pointe. For me its no big deal as to if I can achieve it or not. I would never draw the conclusion that my teacher are rubbish or have questionable motives for doing so. In any case I think I have only had about three classes possibly four when we lost the time slot for youngsters pantomime rehearsal. There were only 3 adults in that class, one girls that just needed practice as she was already on full pointe, me and another girl that had never done it before. The time we had was spent strengthening the feet through various exercise, the other girl I guess was about 20 years younger than me. One of the exercises was to take the weight on one leg with the other at cou-de-pied and hold for 15 seconds, my friend struggled a bit with that, I flew past a minute then started to go into arabesque and attitude bringing the foot in front, admittedly I couldn’t balance as I still had my fingers lightly holding the barre. For me that was awesome, it felt that I was a lot higher than I really was. The profile on my right leg was good, nearly strait, but my left was much worse, further more I could feel an old knee injury that I had forgot about, whilst I could do the 15 seconds easily on that foot, I didn’t want to push it. Although I had gel ouch pouches on both feet, I was expecting them to get sore very quickly, but on the first class I found my little toe started to get sore so I fitted some gel tubey things to both little toes and that certainly fixed it.

As for number of classes of 3 x 1.5h a week over 2.5 years being the boundary, then I've just reset that for myself. At one time I could nearly double that in one day with 7.5 hours of ballet, but as the Achilles issue started to show I have shed some of the less important classes, needless to say I still do multiple classes most days. I guess my most extreme now is 4 classes which covers a 500 mile round trip where I leave home at 6.30am and arrive back at 1am the following morning ready to leave home again at 10am the same day. Also I do not count the fact that I have my own dance studio and I also hire the same hall as one of my teachers (now ex-teacher), although we are still friends. Neither do I count repertoire Workshops, Master classes or Summer Intensives.

 

Michelle,

 

Nowhere on this thread have I tried to discredit you. So I wonder where are you getting this idea from? I have only shared my experience and what I have learned about ballet so far as an adult.

 

The rest of your post seems to suggest I said your technique was rubbish. I have never said, or hinted, that your technique is rubbish. No-one else on this forum has said so either. So why are you saying this?

 

Although part of me agrees with the comments from Ribbons, Anjuli and Mimi66, I wanted to continue suggesting advice because, dare I suggest it here, that we both have a similar starting-ballet story? When I started ballet in my early 20s I very soon looked to see if I could add more classes. I ended up fitting in 8 classes a week while working full-time. Most of classes I did were not suitable for my level, they were around an Intermediate level. Although I enjoyed the classes (when I was doing them at the time) I had to learn the hard way and developed a lot of bad habits. It took a lot of work to undo the ‘damage’. Looking back, it was a waste of time fitting in so many classes, which were of no use to me. If I had not done so many classes that were beyond my level at the time, I think I would be an even more proficient dancer than I am now.

 

I think you may not like the comparison I have made between myself and yourself. I hasten to add that I have never made any assumptions about your technique. I have just made a comment that our ballet-starting story appears to be quite similar, that is all, and hope you may find it useful. If I had had someone explain to me, when I started ballet, why I was going about it the wrong way, and how I should go about it instead, I like to think I wouldn’t have put down their opinions.

 

I have to admit I feel uncomfortable with the tone of your expression, ‘I don’t necessarily follow what.. the teacher instructs '. As an adult, you are free to do what you wish. But I feel I should comment that it’s considered very disrespectful not to do what the teacher has set for class. Whenever I have attended class, which happened to have students at vocational school in the UK (when they’re doing some extra classes during the summer break) or had professionals drop-in, I have never see those dancers not do what the teacher sets, even though they are considered among the best dancers in the UK(if not the world maybe). The only exception is when someone is recovering from injury, and they would let the teacher know before class has started that they need to ‘do their own thing’ in specific parts of class. Needless to say I haven’t seen amateur dancers ‘do their own thing’ in class either.

 

It feels to me you are uncomfortable reading what I am saying, and what others are saying. I get this feeling because your posts feel like you are trying to put down my opinions and what I have learnt. As it has been mentioned lots of times, everyone who has contributed to this thread is only concerned about your injuries. I stand by what I have said about physios, training and pointe work because I did not make them up. I speak purely from what I have learnt and hope it’s of some help. But I will repeat again that it worries me greatly that there are teachers around who seem to be casual about putting their students en pointe.

 

If you believe none of the concerns voiced by forum members is of any use to you, or you feel none of it is relevant to you, I feel that’s a real shame.

 

There are lots of adults going back to, or starting ballet, which is excellent. I like to think a lot of them are reading this forum for advice. So I hope what I have said is of some help to them instead.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Dancer Sugar Plum

[Thecatsmother]

What are the things which adult dancers struggle to learn or are the steps that make your heart sink because you feel you have never quite mastered the essence of the step? Perhaps this might be encourage others adults to share and participate.

[LinMM]

Tut tut Michelle not doing what the teacher said is getting a bit naughty now

 

Sounds like you would be a choreographic class teacher's dream but better save those extra twirls and alternative arms when in a normal class!! Discipline yourself now!!