Simply Adult Ballet: the progress of one adult dancer who took up ballet later in life

[Flit and float]

Love it! There's one teacher who used to teach classes I go to who did lots of dancey waltzy adage, turns, allegro and minimum of petit allegro (I hate glissade assemble/jete!) - loved her classes!

[mimi66]

Michelle, we are all just concerned that sooner or later your injury will stop you from dancing ballet for the rest of you life - worse, it may affect your everyday quality of life - if you keep going on like a stubborn teenager (who is meaning well but cluesss as to how to approach life yet - some teenagers are much wiser).

 

The truth is, we have all seen someone who thought and behaved like you... and we have all seen what became of them. They either gave up ballet after at the most 3 years because for them life is all about some superficial instant gratification, or that they got too injured to continue ballet.

 

I know you feel you are special (and of course you are , as a person), but the in terms of ballet, you are not alone - there have been hundreds of Michelles before you and no doubt there will be another hundreds to follow. Including those who consider themselves as a "dancer" before they came to ballet - well, it is a correct description in English sense, but also that would make most of the adult population "dancers". 

 

Sorry to be so blunt, but it is really important that you take care of your body, so that you can keep dancing.  This is why everyone is advising, not to put you down or hurt your feeling.  What began with tendinitis could eventually cause rapture of tendons if the problem is not addressed propperly and promptly. Then at your age you may never be able to adequately recover to dance ballet, even at a very basic level.

 

Because it has taken so long for you to find ballet - would be such a pity if you have to give it up for some preventable causes. 

Edited December 17, 2013 by mimi66

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

Michelle, I agree with what Mimi66 has said in her last post. And I have a few more points I'd like to add and hope they will be food for thought.

 

Some years back, maybe it was soon after I started ballet, I heard or read about how beneficial it was for more advanced dancers to take classes that were lower than their level. They also said that doing 'easier' classes can be a lot harder. I remember thinking this did not make sense. How can doing something 'easier' be more difficult?! However, I think it's only been the last few years I've understood this to be true. In fact, when I do lower-level classes it can be even more tiring than more advanced classes, simply because I try to do everything as technically perfect as I possibly can. Now, I would not 'look down' at a class, or decide not to attend a class, just because it was labelled 'Beginners' or 'Beginners Plus', etc. This is another example why ballet takes time, whether we like it or not. It takes time for everyone to learn to tune into their bodies, be they a young teenager hoping to get into a ballet company one day, to someone who has started as an adult. As Anjuli has said in her earlier post, "No one gets a pass or can truly operate outside those requirements."

 

I have also heard it said that in some classes teachers are reluctant to tell students if they feel the student is not yet ready for their class. Some classes need a certain number of students to attend in order to run, so the number of students become very important. You could argue that the school/teacher just wants to make money but it's a fact of life that schools/teachers need to cover the cost of hall hire, pianist, electricity, etc and this comes from the students' fees. I am not commenting whether this is a bad thing, or an acceptable thing, just wanted to share what I have learned.

 

I have also heard it said that some teachers do not know what to say to some students if they are in a class that's too advanced and there are too many things to correct. They may give that student some thoughts of what they should work on, but they don't know where to start because too much needs correcting and general class is not geared towards only tutoring individuals. Either the teacher needs numbers for class to run, or see new people coming along as extra income, so they wouldn't say to someone not to attend their class. Or alternatively, the teacher feels uncomfortable telling the student he/she is not yet ready for the class in case the student takes it the wrong way and sees it as an insult.

 

I am not claiming this is what has happened with some of the class(es) you attend/attended. I just wanted to share what I have learned so far doing ballet. I think it's great you've found something you truly love, and it's probably an obvious general sweeping statement but we on this forum are all the same - we all love ballet and we want to share our experiences to help others. So I hope this, and posts by Mimi66, Balleteacher and Anjuli have given you some food for thought. As Mimi66 has said, it would be a shame if you had to stop doing ballet for preventable reasons.

 

I hope this has been helpful.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Dancer Sugar Plum

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Girls

 

Its already very late for me (1.30am), so I will respond to your comments tomorrow night (Wednesday), I did see some of them Monday night 11pm when I got back from Lincoln, however I had to be in bed by midnight, as I needed to up at 5am for my trip to Northern Ballet where I did three classes Tuesday, I have 3 classes for Wednesday but only one ballet as the rest are body conditioning. Then its back with Northern for Thursday.

[Tulip]

It's good to see you keep yourself busy, did you say in an earlier post you are now retired Michelle? So it's clear you are filling your days with a hobby you adore, good luck to you. I hope by the time I retire I have the energy to Persue my hobbies, having said that I would like to do more travelling.

[taxi4ballet]

I hope by the time I retire I have the energy to Persue my hobbies, having said that I would like to do more travelling.

 

My mother-in-law has recently been trekking in the snowy Rocky Mountains of Colorado (complete with crampons).

 

She's 88!

[Tulip]

Wow she sounds incredible Taxi.

[mimi66]

Found a lovely video, I just needed to share with you all.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpUe4SCc1Bo

 

It is a bit old, but I love it because it shows how Vaganova Academy prepares their 1st year students for the demands of non- recreational ballet. These are already talented kids who have bodies made for ballet... Yet, much of the first year they just practice standing still, super slow tendu, and degages,stationary port de bras, slow walking etc for hours on end, day in, day out.  No "fancy turns and jumps" in sight... And this is NOT because these girls can't do them already (most of them nowaday would be taking ballet class about 4 years by then).  Until they can do the basics in near perfection, as they do in this film, they won't move on to the next stage of their training.

 

This is the sort of process one must go through if one wants to merely "traine"  everyday.  Otherwise the body just won't take it.

 

I am not saying that we should all do what Vaganova girls do (...I wish!).  I am merely saying that the training methods used for recreational dancers (that's you and I, Michelle) and for vocational purpose are very different, even from the very beginning. 

 

Michelle, somehow I cannnot see you wanting to go through really basic training like these Vagnova girls for a year or two (neither do I, because I am too lazy for that.). But without  at least going through that sort of training you body just do not benefit from taking ballet classes everyday, and you can forget the reharsals, too. You can't just "copy and paste" some aspects of training methods  you just like (as a total beginner to ballet to boot!) in ballet and expect that to work.

 

The ballet class open for adult beginners are for recreational dancers training only.  It is NOT designed for people who takes ballet classes everyday  (and to make it meaningful) - misguided enthusiasts end up practicing bad habits by doing excessive numbers of classes.

 

So, unlike Vaganova girls, we are taught some turns and jumps, even though our torso is still sinking heavily into our hips, neck deeply burried in shoulder, knees not pulled up propperly and still bent and foot rolling in or out (and the list goes on), because that keeps us interested and motivates us to continue ballet.  Of course, everytime we do those things our foot, knees and back (and everywhere else) take a bit of a knock, but it's OK becuase at this stage the students should be doing about two classes a week, giving enough recovery time for their bodies to try again in the next class.

 

 

Even then, obviously some of the things should not be attempted unless your body can stand it.  Those injuries are signs that your body clearly can't stand it. Time to rest, then step back and clean up your technique.  So your dance will improve much faster in the end.

Edited December 18, 2013 by mimi66

[LinMM]

Nice to see that some things don't change much then over the years wherever you are in the world.......that teenage sullenness.....the girls face was priceless as a look of blank unhelpful ness....... "dont talk to me" "what have I done...what about the others" when asked by the teacher what she had been doing and what she should have been doing!! (Though her Sissones looked perfect to me!)

 

In Russian classes both here and in London there is a lot of emphasis placed on the tendu and you seem to do an awful lot more of them in various combinations and differing speeds of execution. I must say though that after any Russian barre which seems to last longer also, I do always feel thoroughly warmed up!

 

Thanks for the video. When I got my IPad last year I was initiated into the joys of YouTube by watching lots of these Vaganova school videos and followed the development of several now famous dancers (great seeing the likes of a very young Diana Vishneva looking wonderful already at about 13) and just watching other ballet out there for the first time. My iPad became such an an objet d'obsession that my partner had to resort to hiding it.......so I couldn't be on it 24/7 and die frozen in a chair watching ballet!!!!

[Fiz]

I did feel for Veronika though, Lin. It is horrible to be singled out in class for making - or not making - a mistake

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

I recently met a contemporary dance teacher whose job involves training teenage dancers and we had a chat about ballet and training. I told her I started late in ballet and she said she was behind in ballet when she started college (She was born and trained in the UK). So in order to try and catch up, she approached a ballet teacher and asked if she could do extra classes with her. She told her she didn't mind the level or age of students in the class, she just wanted to do more to improve her ballet and left the placing to her. The ballet teacher placed her into a class with young children, and it sounded like they were probably no older than the age of 7. The contemporary dance teacher said she felt very awkward at first, she felt like a giant amongst these children. However, the ballet teacher never treated her any differently, she was just another member of her class to her.

 

If I could go back in time I think I would have liked to have tried this method of starting ballet. I don't know how easy or hard it would have been to find a school that would allow adults to do class with young children, and I probably would have found the idea of it very intimidating. But in hindsight it's an excellent idea to start and work from the very beginning and not jump ahead with a load of extra too-advanced classes before I was ready.

[LinMM]

Yes Fiz I did feel for her too......especially as no doubt they knew they were being filmed. It was just that look when asked what she had been doing.....as if the teacher was talking another language!

 

Mind you when you don't get to the exact point of your question immediately and sort of start indirectly as in this clip.....the poor girl may have thought what does she mean what have we being doing Sissone ferme of course......is it a trick question starts to come to mind!

[Anjuli_Bai]

I have the complete tapes of both "Backstage at the Kirov" and "Children of Theatre Street."   In one part they are doing a centre exercise of very slow glissades.  My first teacher (Russian - pre-Vaganova) used to give us the same exercise daily.  It's an agonizing slowly done glissade to the front, side and back - breaking down every moment of the extension of the leg along the floor and the recovery in changing legs - the feet never leave the floor.  I was very much interested in seeing they are still doing that exercise.

 

One of the most difficult things to learn in ballet is how to stand still, how to walk and how to run - and this is what they learn first.  

 

However, if one is teaching adult beginner/intermediates, I wouldn't recommend this type of class, it was designed for beginners with a vocational goal.  

 

The teacher has to be careful to guide the adult beginner/intermediate in a calculated progression of understanding technique in the mind whilst giving it time to come to fruition in the body.  The challenge for the teacher is to do this while engaging the enthusiasm of the student,  It is possible to overwhelm the student with detail.  There are times that they have to be allowed to feel the exhilaration of the  wind going through their hair.   There are a number of pas which fulfill this purpose without harm to technique.

 

The further challenge of the teacher is to create and/or foster  that enthusiasm while channeling it in helpful ways - not allowing it to overwhelm the ability of the body..  

 

Most dancers know that more often becomes too much.  The first couple of pirouettes are a warm up, the next few are often the best, but much after that they begin to decay and it is before that decay that the student should stop.   Stop while the body remembers the "best."  

 

More isn't better.

[mimi66]

Yes Fiz I did feel for her too......especially as no doubt they knew they were being filmed. It was just that look when asked what she had been doing.....as if the teacher was talking another language!

 

Mind you when you don't get to the exact point of your question immediately and sort of start indirectly as in this clip.....the poor girl may have thought what does she mean what have we being doing Sissone ferme of course......is it a trick question starts to come to mind!

 

I also wonder if poor Veronika and her classmates were too much in awe with their teacher, Natalia Dudinskaya - ex Kirov prima ballerina, who partnered with Chabukiani and famously partnered rookie Nureyev freshly out of Vaganova Academy.

 

She must have looked like a living Goddess to them!

Edited December 18, 2013 by mimi66

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Girls

 

I'm at a real disadvantage here until I can get a solution to copy and paste from word. I will probably have to get another PC on line but that will not be until after I get back from Northern tomorrow, that take priority.

 

There is an awful lot of comments which have been made about me which are totally inaccurate, miss-quoted and no attention to detail what so ever. Needless to say I'm somewhat miffed that I'm not able to respond to these right now as its not practical to just to document and edit the forums text box.

[2dancersmum]

Michelle, my DS found a solution that works for me. Have posted the reply in your post on PC problems

[Michelle_Richer]

Thank you 2dancersmum, I thought my other post had been deleted as I couldn't find it, the solution works fine. I must take my other laptop back into my studio, I guess I will have to reconfigure the screen again.

[mimi66]

I have the complete tapes of both "Backstage at the Kirov" and "Children of Theatre Street."   In one part they are doing a centre exercise of very slow glissades.  My first teacher (Russian - pre-Vaganova) used to give us the same exercise daily.  It's an agonizing slowly done glissade to the front, side and back - breaking down every moment of the extension of the leg along the floor and the recovery in changing legs - the feet never leave the floor.  I was very much interested in seeing they are still doing that exercise.

 

One of the most difficult things to learn in ballet is how to stand still, how to walk and how to run - and this is what they learn first.  

 

However, if one is teaching adult beginner/intermediates, I wouldn't recommend this type of class, it was designed for beginners with a vocational goal.  

 

The teacher has to be careful to guide the adult beginner/intermediate in a calculated progression of understanding technique in the mind whilst giving it time to come to fruition in the body.  The challenge for the teacher is to do this while engaging the enthusiasm of the student,  It is possible to overwhelm the student with detail.  There are times that they have to be allowed to feel the exhilaration of the  wind going through their hair.   There are a number of pas which fulfill this purpose without harm to technique.

 

The further challenge of the teacher is to create and/or foster  that enthusiasm while channeling it in helpful ways - not allowing it to overwhelm the ability of the body..  

 

Most dancers know that more often becomes too much.  The first couple of pirouettes are a warm up, the next few are often the best, but much after that they begin to decay and it is before that decay that the student should stop.   Stop while the body remembers the "best."  

 

More isn't better.

 

Anjuli, I thought you would have the original video...I would love to see the rest of the "Backstage at the Kirov", but can't seem to find it on Youtube.  Somthing to do with the copyright issue, may be?

 

I am glad that you have added that the type of training method on this video is not suitable for adult beginner/intermediate students  - I was wondering if that point came across in my post.

 

Apart from just wanting to share this lovely clip, I wanted to point out that training methods must be devised to be "fit for purpose"  for the demand one places on one's body.

[mimi66]

Oh, forgot to add...

 

I was thinking how lucky I am to be able to take ballet classes as an adult, as a hobby.  Oh, to live in a time to be able to enjoy dancing ballet non-professionally.

 

It was sometihng impossible not that long ago - certainly when I was younger it was totally unheard of!  As a kid you might do it up until 10 - 12 ish, and if you were not good enough for point shoes and had a stamina and skill to be able to take classes at least 4 times a week plus reharsals for peformance by then, you just couldn't do ballet. Ballet for pure pleasure for adults (not even young adults) simply did not  exist.

[Michelle_Richer]

Dear Dancer Suga Plum and Mimi66

 

You may be wonderful dancers but this time I think you are in need of correction.

 

1)Foot resting is totally inappropriate and would be counter productive, the basis of “Alfredson’s painful heel-drop protocol for Achilles Tendinopathy, is a therapy of strengthening. It also advises they “consider worsening pain as part of the normal recovery process; thus, they advise patients to continue with the full exercise program even as the pain worsened on the starting the program. Along those lines, if the patient experienced no pain during the program, he or she was advised to increase the load until the exercise provoked pain (BRUKNER AND KHAN, CLINICAL SPORTS MEDICINE).

 

However as I have mentioned previously I have reduced my ballet workload to 3 hours a day with the full knowledge of my physio which we both agree is sustainable.

So I’m not thinking “thinking that 'it'll all be fine', and that 'it will get better “ , it will get better due to the advice I have taken and the strategy we are following.

 

 

2)Eye for detail in the context I used includes everything, the same way my proactive teachers would apply it. However one of you chose to try and discredit my query which is what it was, and the teacher in each case confirmed the movement my interpretation of the movement. So trying to justify a situation that has been agreed by a teacher seems somewhat mischievous and without foundation.

 

3)I love the comment about looking at ones own feet and not in the mirror, both my local teacher and my level 3 teacher at ENB would shoot me, if they see me looking at my feet. In fact both insist the posture is correct, both head and eyes have to be up too, I’m not even allowed to look to follow the dancer in front feet at the barre, that certainly teaches you to be self sufficient.

 

4)I really don’t understand this fixation about quality and quantity, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive, and of cause one should always try to do well whatever the class. It just sounds like knit picking or sour grapes at my capacity to do the number of classes I do. I dance mostly with people that have done ballet for a long time and the occasional one where its been a lot shorter. There are things in the higher level classes where I may not be a good as some of the others, but at the same time the reverse is sometimes true, but little by little I get better. I had an opportunity happen by accident where the class was divided up into 4 groups one in each corner doing pose turns across the room simple(s), I had intended to go first and had found my spotting point, the support in the mirror holding the barre on the opposite wall. The rest of the group moved up and decided collectively that were they would go, there were other dancer on that side of the room against the wall waiting to go and no clear spotting point. They were far more experienced that me, their technique generally would be far better than mine, however on that exercise most of their performance were disappointing, going last I had the opportunity to see it. As I went last, the previous dancers had gone, there was a divide crack between two doors, I used that for my spot and it was easy peasy. We are all better at some things than others, so knocking me for going to higher classes really doesn’t have any merit, but it does give me an experience of a far wider range of movement for me to be properly trained on, rather than to self train for repertoire. Not only that I enjoy the classes too, as I did last night with Northern Ballet Intermediate/advanced class, but in saying that I also attend quite a few at the lower end of the spectrum.

[LinMM]

I think it depends where you live. You have been able to do ballet in London as an Adult for years.....certainly at least 40 years!!

 

When I came down to London age 24 to take up ballet for the second time (im on my third time at mo) there was lots going on then and that is 42 years ago now for me!!

 

I think you are right there are still even more places to do ballet now of course and its starting more in other cities apart from London......for adults I mean.

[Michelle_Richer]

Mimi66 I think because the nature of this one it deserves to be treat separately:

 

 

your comment “if you keep going on like a stubborn teenager who is meaning well but cluesss as to how to approach life

 

If I were so clueless, how come I ran a design department for a world leading manufacturer that consistently returned double digit profit figures inspite of a failing UK manufacturing industry. I also establish a strong international reputation for myself in transfer of technology to overseas companies. My career with that company lasted for 33 years, in other words the test of time. Not bad for a clueless woman with a pair of dancing shoes.

 

 

 

The truth is, we have all seen someone who thought and behaved like you... and we have all seen what became of them. They either gave up ballet after at the most 3 years because for them life is all about some superficial instant gratification, or that they got too injured to continue ballet.

 

I'm interested as to where you get this superficial instant gratification from, for me I make no bones about it, its hard work, one thing I have never shied away from, or the difficulty of a particular task, at the end of the day that’s the discriminator of your success. However I always try to work smarter in preference to harder. I am also aware that my body has limitation too as well as a diminishing lifetime to accommodate all of my ambitions.

 

As for injuries, they happen, virtually at each and every school I attend. One can only assess the risks and act accordingly

 

 

 

I know you feel you are special (and of course you are , as a person), but the in terms , of ballet, you are not alone - there have been hundreds of Michelles before you and no doubt there will be another hundreds to follow. Including those who consider themselves as a "dancer" before they came to ballet - well, it is a correct description in English sense, but also that would make most of the adult population "dancers".

 

You got it in one sweetheart, I am special, to me at least, and very determined too, that’s my mind-set.

As for most of the adult population being dancers, I find that hard to believe. I was also teaching dance (Salsa and other dances) several years before ballet.

 

Even the name you quoted for my condition “tendinitis” is wrong, and it has appeared in my postings enough times as “Achilles tendinopathy”, as it is not truly a inflammatory condition.

 

 

I wont try and draw any conclusion from your comments, other that they have been presented in a very not nice way.

[Michelle_Richer]

LIN a quickie for you, I have 4 more rep workshops from RAD, I will post them either tomorrow night when I get back from Leeds or Friday, when all classes are ended for me until the 4th Jan

[LinMM]

Thanks Michelle much appreciated.

 

I'm now back in classes again......since last Saturday .....and all seems fine so far.

The first two classes I didn't do the grand allegro sections but tonight I had a go at this too and did a pas de chat at the end of the combi instead of a grand jete and again all seems well. Though not getting home in the wind and rain afterwards as no car today!!

 

I'm still doing the exercises given me and working on the core muscles more and the teacher of the Friday scaravelli yoga class has just made some tapes so have bought one of them to keep things going in the hols a bit.

It's the last ballet on Saturday and then nothing until the workshop on Jan4th so will have to do some yoga at home to keep things ticking over.

[mimi66]

I think it depends where you live. You have been able to do ballet in London as an Adult for years.....certainly at least 40 years!!

 

When I came down to London age 24 to take up ballet for the second time (im on my third time at mo) there was lots going on then and that is 42 years ago now for me!!

 

I think you are right there are still even more places to do ballet now of course and its starting more in other cities apart from London......for adults I mean.

 

LinMM I forgot (again!) to add that this was outside the UK . Although now adult ballet is really big out there, since about 20 years ago, I think.

[mimi66]

Dear Dancer Suga Plum and Mimi66

 

You may be wonderful dancers but this time I think you are in need of correction. [...]

 

 

 

3)I love the comment about looking at ones own feet and not in the mirror,[emphasis added by Mimi66] both my local teacher and my level 3 teacher at ENB would shoot me, if they see me looking at my feet. In fact both insist the posture is correct, both head and eyes have to be up too, I’m not even allowed to look to follow the dancer in front feet at the barre, that certainly teaches you to be self sufficient. [.....]

 

 

 

Eh...feet? What feet?  Then I went back to Dancer SugarPlum 's comment no190. (which I quote here...)

 

 

"This list could apply to looking at yourself too, not just when you look in the mirror, but how you feel yourself; [emphasis added by Mimi66] it takes time to get to this level of competency. I have a teacher who tells me that from someone's plies you can tell how much/little training someone has had because it's such a technically difficult movement to get correct. And that's just the first exercise in a class!"

 

mimi66

[Thecatsmother]

I am a bit confused. My understanding is that Achilles tendinopathy is a term which has now replaced Achilles tendinitis but that the terms can be used interchangeably. I think this was changed because the 'itis' in tendinitis implied that there was inflammation present but this is now not considered to accurately capture the source of the problem hence the change in term to Achilles tendinopathy. I believe it is viewed as degeneration within the tendon.

All I will say having had a relative rupture her Achilles' tendon is to listen to your body. Sadly she did not and ended up having surgery. For this reason I always urge particular caution when there is pain in the Achilles' tendon but I am sure a good Physio will advise.

[mimi66]

Michelle, about resting your injured foot.  In the ballet world it goes without saying that you do specific exercise as prescribed by a health professional - I (and I am sure Dancer SugarPlum as well) thought you would already know that and needed no further qualification. 

 

  If your foot hurts doing temps lie, then you should probably take sometime off from ballet class to rest your foot (but do the exercise your physio has given) .  

 

As to your claim re salsa....I do know a bit about those social dancing circles (acutually, more than I want to know!), and all I can say here is that I know very well that noone can stop people from teaching others if they so wish. Sadly I know that for fact.

 

Anyway, jumps, particuarly those land on one foot needs certain degree of competence in technique before you attempt them. You have to land, not clash onto the floor - acutually older dancers need stronger technique than younger ones to do the jumps safely, as we tend to accumulate excess weights around the middle as we get older - think of our poor foot supporting those weights!  Needless to say if you can't put your heel down when landing, then you should not be attempting jumps. In this instance practice makes injury.

 

I guess it takes more courage to take the necessary rest, sometimes. 

Edited December 19, 2013 by mimi66

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

Michelle,

 

As I have mentioned in one of my last posts, I am on this forum to share my experience of learning ballet as an adult. I have also mentioned on another thread on this forum that I am not what the vocational ballet world would label as 'talented' (unfortunately for me). I never claimed to be a wonderful dancer, either on this forum (or in the real world). I have explained the ballet mistakes I made in the hope it would help other people. Like I said in an earlier post, in hindsight I would have gone about trying to improve my ballet differently than what I actually did.

 

I believe you mentioned you were following the advice of a physio to heal your foot, if I am not mistaken. If so, then I know you are trying to be sensible in following his/her advice. But just speaking from personal experience in ballet, there are some situations where it's better not to do ballet until the injury has healed. I am not saying this would or would not apply to you, just illustrating a point. Because it's so easy to be misaligned in ballet, not only in the hips, but also in the rolling in/out of the feet/foot, it's easy to stop injuries getting better. Also, I have seen some physios in the past, who were meaning well in their advice, but they had no idea about ballet, so they were not well-placed to give meaningful advice. While recovering from a knee injury, I told a physio that it was painful doing demi-plies in class, but the pain got better as class got on. The physio's reply was to ask me why I had to do demi-plies for ballet class! Why couldn't I just miss them out but still do the rest of class?! In sharing this story (and other things I've learned) I don't mean to misquote you, or say this is what has happened to you as well, etc.

 

About the 'eye for detail' context, I did not try to 'discredit' your query, but to point out that there was technically nothing wrong with port de bras going through 1st or 5th to recover.

 

I feel I should also point out that the 'looking in the mirror' comment was about how we correct ourselves in class. It is normal to use the mirror as a tool to check alignment, but it takes the body time to really understand how to do this. The more I learn in ballet, the more I understand about the detail, the more behind I feel I am. This is my own personal opinion. I have this opinion of myself because ballet relies on detail, and the body reaching/achieving that detail.

 

In your pose turns example, it sounds like you are good at spotting, which is a good thing. However, you mentioned that the other dancers' 'performances were disappointing'. Some dancers need to focus so much on keeping their technique, it can look like they are not really performing in class. Sometimes 'performance' in class needs to take a back seat while working on technique, because the technique is so difficult to achieve. As an example, for pose turns your audience (be they in a theatre, a teacher, your fellow dancers, etc) would be looking to see if the pose leg has stayed straight on the transfer of weight, if turn out has been maintained, has body posture been maintained, has a hip raised as you transfered weight for the pose turn, has the working foot not sickled, etc. It's this picture as a whole, with all these details that matter in ballet. And these details usually take time to achieve, which is why myself and some other forum users have expressed caution in doing advanced classes.

 

I have not shared my experiences, and my mistakes, in order to 'knit pick'. It's neither 'sour grapes' either. Like I said in an earlier post, I attended multiple classes every week, shortly after starting ballet as an adult. These included classes that were too advanced for me, but I did not understand this at the time. It did me no good to do these extra classes. Had I focussed on classes that were in my level - beginner at that time - maybe I wouldn't have had to spend so much time correcting bad habits, and maybe I would have been a better dancer than I am now? As I have said many times, I have shared my experience in the hope it helps other people. And if my mistakes don't apply to you, and you know your technique is secure, and you are definitely not picking up bad habits from the advanced classes you do, then I have to admit that I am envious of you (in a good way).

[Fiz]

Lin, I wish I'd known that about adult classes in London donkeys years ago! I would have gone like a shot. Ah well!

[Anna C]

I always remember a quote from one of my daughter's teachers when asked by someone about "performance skills".

 

She said: "We don't teach "performance" until the technique is completely solid. Once the technique and line is ingrained in the muscles and brain, that frees the dancer to be able to perform naturally."

 

In other words, the most important thing for ballet students - when training - is to perfect the line and the technique, and THEN the dancer will find her own "performance style".

 

I think of it a bit like driving. Only when you have the basics ingrained as muscle memory can you then think about the route, talking whilst driving, or doing a great lap in a race. The basics - clutch, accelerator, brake, indicating - are ingrained and we do them unconsciously. Only then could we start getting decent times at the Nurburgring. You certainly couldn't get a decent lap time if you were thinking "down with the clutch, up with the accelerator, change gear" - your body does that for you.

 

Same in ballet - until you have the basics perfected and are making the most beautiful lines possible. I'd rather see simple steps danced beautifully than a complex variation danced ungracefully or with lines spoilt by flexed feet.

 

The other thing that goes with this is that watching other dancers while waiting your turn *can* be very constructive and help your own technique - if you are watching them for the right reasons. But sometimes it is better to concentrate purely on your own technique first before comparing it to others.

 

Finally, sometimes an injury can be of benefit if a dancer can take part in some of the class. If for example you have to sit out during Allegro, or you have to keep the leg below 45 degrees, it can give you the time and headspace to concentrate on other parts of your dancing - how pointed your feet are, perhaps, or how sustained your turnout is.

[2dancersmum]

Balleteacher - I think you are correct in your understanding. Patient.co.uk describes tendinopathy as :

 

Achilles tendinopathy is a condition that causes pain, swelling, stiffness and weakness of the Achilles tendon. It is thought to be caused by repeated tiny injuries (known as microtrauma) to the Achilles tendon. After each injury, the tendon does not heal completely, as should normally happen. This means that over time, damage to the Achilles tendon builds up and Achilles tendinopathy can develop.

 

And goes on to explain :Achilles tendinopathy used to be known as Achilles tendonitis. In general, 'itis' usually refers to inflammation, so tendonitis would mean inflammation of a tendon. However, Achilles tendinopathy is now thought to be a better term to use because it is thought that there is little or no inflammation that causes the problem.

 

So it would appear that posters are referring to the same condition, even if using different names to do so.

[LinMM]

I like the driving analogy S and P I think that describes very well what happens to more advanced students.....the body is sort of doing some things automatically.......but only because of the degree of training beforehand. The real joy of driving(which never comes to some people unfortunately) usually only really kicks in after you've taken and passed your test and begun to get confident in most situations on the road.......and you don't envy Learner drivers still trying to get to grips with clutch control as you know what that was like!!! Most drivers will eventually experience that "at one with the vehicle" feeling from time to time......unless you only drive on sufferance.

This is similar to ballet in that it takes a while before you get that "at one with the body" experience......and even then it's not there all the time.

There is a very interesting interview on Youtube with David Hallberg who states that one of the things he likes about ballet is that there is always something you can be doing better its never perfect(or rarely) if one thing goes well another may not and so on so you are always having to work at perfecting the technique. But the other side is the immersion in a role you may be playing where you have to "forget" the technique more.

 

In the easiest class I do I can begin to think more about how I'm presenting the little dances because I'm not worried by technical demands so much in that class and it is a nice feeling. One can at least nearly do justice to the music!!

In more advanced classes(for me that's an intermediate/advance class) I'm usually having to concentrate too much on the different technical aspects so its more likely to be "moments" of presentation than a whole dance section in those classes.

As I know everyone is usually trying their hardest to achieve what has been asked of them it would never occur to me to think in a class situation that someone' else's performance or execution of a step was "disappointing" I must say though.