Simply Adult Ballet: the progress of one adult dancer who took up ballet later in life

[Thecatsmother]

A comfortable shoe with a small heel will definitely take the strain off your Achilles' tendon which would seem to be the purpose of the strapping. If you are at home a lot I would suggest wearing the shoes with a heel in the house. No stilettos though????????

[Fiz]

It sounds as if you are really going through the mill, Michelle. I really hope 2014 picks up for you.

[Terpsichore]

Michelle_Richer

 

It appears that you are making progress which is the news for which I had been hoping.

 

I am glad that you were able to do your shopping and that you should be able to attend Le Corsaire on 11 Feb.   I hope you enjoy the show and that you will soon be able to resume your classes and other activities.

 

Kind regards

 

Terpsichore

[LinMM]

Well that's a good girl (and a relief) now Michelle!

 

Happy healing

From mum

[mimi66]

Michelle, glad to hear that you are now walking with both feet flat on the floor.  Is this with taping or without?

 

Please give your body time to heal - we all tend to ask too much from our body and tend to start moving as normal once the pain is gone or reduced with the help from taping or painkiller.

 

But the real purpose of taping or painkiller is to relieve pain so that the part that is damaged can rest propperly - when there is any form or pain, the muscles around it tense up and would not let the affected part relax .  This is the time when one's own healing can operate more efficiently.

 

I had to learn this in a hard way  (not going intodetails now)- we all tend to abuse our bodies at certain point in life, but bodies require due care and attention!

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

I have just read about your injury Michelle and I agree with Anjuli's earlier post that I doubt anyone on this forum wants to say "I told you so."

 

I also agree with Anjuli about the potential dangers of 'heel drops'. I am not a physio, but I have been advised in the past that these are dangerous because it's easy to roll in or roll out the feet (or foot) or be misaligned in your posture while doing these, which could lead to injury.

 

From your recent posts, I am glad it sounds like your injury is making progress towards healing. I understand how frustrating it is not to be able to do class.

 

I wish you a speedy recovery.

[Sheila Beelam]

Goodness Michelle I've just seen this thread and I'm so sorry I've been wrapped up in tax returns and ballet has fallen by the wayside!

 

I'm glad you're starting to see some healing taking place and sincerely hope it continues

 

Hannah has had a sore Achilles recently too, she now has heel lifts and rest prescribed - pretty hard when we had 4 days in NY over Xmas with lots of walking But she is icing and resting and it has improved, plus being on holiday from dancing has helped. My right Achilles has been tight first thing in the morning for a few weeks now, but once I've pottered around making tea it's fine - I put it down to aging, but am keeping a close eye!

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it happens to us all, if not Achilles, then knees, or hips etc so absolutely nobody would be thinking "I told you so"

I love this forum because nobody here would say that. Help, experience and support is what is offered.

Hugs and you better get for for traipsing around Moveit this year! X

Best wishes

Sheila x

[Sheila Beelam]

Sorry just read my post and when I mentioned heel lifts I didn't mean rises but wedges in her shoes to lift her heels

[Ellie]

Silicone 'heel lifts /wedges' in his day shoes helped my DS (vocational school) loads last year when he was having problems with his achilles...Not expensive and once you get up and running again Michelle, definitely worth a try. x

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Mimi66

 

I still have the taping on, although I don’t take pain killers, as I need to know when things start to improve.

This morning (Saturday), things are still moving on, I went from the bedroom along the landing quite bleary eyed and then realised I was walking without the elevation of heel with my shoes and heel gel pad. It wasn’t totally without pain but it was another step forward.

 

Hi Ellie/Sheila

I have jelly heel pads/cushions in my day shoes and that helps enormously otherwise the circumference of the heel is very sore.

 

Hi Dancer Sugar Plum

As a result of the warnings of heel drops I thought it worth doing a little research only to find that I have not been doing them correctly against “Alfredson’s protocol”.

I have the original extract given to me by my Physio, where it has both pictures and text. The text describes how the heel is lowered from demi-pointe until it parallel with the floor, the picture shows the heel lower, the toes of the foot (in trainers) on a ledge. The other foot from the knee is in the air at the back. The protocol does not explain how subsequent rises are done for that set of 15 reps.

 

I have 6 manuals that deal with Anatomy and flexibility training, 5 are ballet related and most were bought from the ROH shop, the other stems from my days of martial art training, called “Ultimate Flexibility”. It seems there are lots of different but quite similar methods of strength building, but non that did exactly the same as I was doing. I then turn to the Internet, the documented description of “Alfredson’s Protocol”, was similar as was the pictures with the heel down below the horizontal, nothing new there. However I did find a Youtube Clip, in that the essential difference is, the exercise is done solely as a drop, the lift if you can call it that, is done by placing the other leg directly on demi-pointe on the ledge and lifting the other foot up totally unloaded. However I have seen another example but not described at “Alfredson’s Protocol”, that does use lift and lowers as a continuous process, but it uses both legs, thus halving the amount of weight on each leg. Mine included the lower and lift done by the exercising foot only, far more demanding.

 

Even now with a method that was different to the one I should have been using. It was far more demanding but my body had become acclimatised to it, I don’t think it was that that hurt my ankle as such, but the fact that the more demanding lift that was required by such as cold muscle was the thing that injured it, that I should have known better, and only have myself to blame.

 

I think by Monday the ballet slippers go on to get used to my feet fully flat on the floor and walking unaided other than tape if it manages to stay on that long. Then we will see what my Physio has to say on Tuesday. Even though the slippers are on I will not be dancing etc.

 

As one of my teachers said "unfortunately this is part of a dancer's life"

Edited January 4, 2014 by Michelle_Richer

[mimi66]

Michelle, on the subject of your heel drop exercise, I would agree with Dancer Plum Sugar.  I feel that, for some wired reasons, the meaning of her post has not been exactly communicated to you the way her post had intended.

 

Even a simple releve requires quite a few complicated technique... It is common mistakes (even when dancing) that one's feet/foot roll in or out, which leads to injury.  Particularly when a body gets tired, the tendency is to "climb up" rather than rise, which is really damaging to one's foot.  In addition, one must do the exercise with a correct alignment (as Dancer Sugar Plum mentioned), and this involves holding up your knees correctly, not sinking into your hip, not sitting your weight on to your metatersal etc,etc., not at all easy thing to master. I don't think ordinary execise instructions cover those details...because it is impossible (and dangerous)to teach those aspect through books  or video.

 

From my experience as an adult student, it takes at least a couple of years and more likely 5 years plus (some, never) to even become partially aware of those techinique involved in releve as you are doing them. Obviously it takes more time for those who are learning ballet for the first time and the age one started ballet also plays a big factor.

 

I would like to say that may be it is a good idea for you to demonstrate your physio how you did the exercise, so that she can give you some feed back if necessary (of course, only if it doesn't hurt!) . Having said that, not all physio are ballet trained and sometimes do not understand the demand dancing makes on one's body (particularly if overuse is involved), so I would also ask one of you ballet teacher to watch how you do releve (both feet AND one foot - again only if it doesn't hurt) - and give technical correction. 

 

Even something seemingly so simple as releve can cause really bad injury if not practiced correctly. This is why one should not pactice ballet without a qualified teacher's supervision.

 

Sorry, got a bit off subject.  I hope your visit to physio (tomorrow?) goes well and for the speedy recovery of your foot.

Edited January 6, 2014 by mimi66

[LinMM]

Tiredness is quite an issue where acquiring injuries is concerned.

This is quite a timely post as it happens Mimi!!

 

I know how to do a correct releve such if I should do one incorrectly I know it instantly. In a normal class of an hour and a half I can be very aware of this especially when doing pirouettes.

 

I did a lovely workshop run by City Academy on Saturday. It was hugely enjoyable except that by the end of the day when we were going through final run throughs of what we had learned without and then again with the music I could feel I wasn't hitting the correct releve position (there were a lot) and started to get a twinge at back of right foot. Just to finish off I put on a an ankle support which really helped (it is a good make) but walking home afterwards knew I had if only lightly strained something which had been caused by my tiredness and a little bit out of practice after the holiday came into it too.

I had to make the decision to protect this slight injury by not attending another workshop booked for the next day!!

It's much better already today but as all local classes start again this week I didn't want to start off the term with another injury......having finished the last term with one!! Though the previous one wasn't caused by dancing.

This is why general fitness levels are so important for ballet too you have to have the stamina not to tire so easily when it's easier to injure yourself.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Mimi66

 

Best we make sure your post communicates to me with what you intended then.

 

You mention Releve’s, this term differs between schools as you should know, for some (French school I think) it’s a smooth continuous rise on to pointe or deme-pointe and toes do not move from the spot that it began, for the decent the heels are lowered slowly, in other words a rise. I was always taught that a rise and a releve were quite different; this came mainly from my local teacher who is Cecchetti trained, but teaches a generic form of ballet. There a releve is a quick spring from a demi-plie on to pointe or demi-pointe, during the spring , the toes are brought directly under the centre line of the balance (eg sucked up into 5th).

 

You also go on to mention “climb up rather than rise”, I would suggest that a climb up is in fact a slow rise that requires and good deal of sustained effort and strength, as opposed to a spring which has momentum. This is very evident when trying to do high leg extensions, one can usually kick a lot higher, than one can lift and hold it.

 

I really don’t understand what context this relates too “this involves holding up your knees correctly, not sinking into your hip, not sitting your weight on to your metatarsal”, are we talking releve’s or single heel drops from 6th, as it makes no sense.

 

Your final sentence to the same para seem to suggest something (possibly) releve’s cannot be taught from a book or video, I personally think a video can contribute tremendous value, certainly for consistency, but in any case you are fully are that I also have a large number of teachers too and corrections when appropriate, but its always good to get a “Nice one” remark after doing an enchainement in an Advanced/ Intermediate class only to find the same enchainement was used in a professional company class by the same teacher, for me that was a big WOW.

 

As for demonstrating to my physio, I did do that originally but it was only for a single rep. I have since found the procedure I was using on a professional sports site, but only when the sports persons ankles had gained sufficient strength. As for demonstrating, tomorrow, is eezee peezee with the left foot, but I’m not too sure about the right, drops only, at best it’s a may be, as I was originally doing it, no chance, not even with pain which there would be lots.

 

As for doing releve’s generally, these were closely scrutinised in our pointe strength building classes, so I really don’t think there is any mileage to be found there, also prior to all this most days I used to do 200 rep rises (Both feet) in batches of 50, also when waiting for class I would also do a similar number of reps for each leg with a resistance band, I snapped two bands that way.

 

As for “This is why one should not practice ballet without a qualified teacher's supervision.”, you know I will never buy into that one, primarily I will learn repertoire first, then go though it with my rep coach on a one-to-one basis for correction. Performing repertoire from the classics is where my real love of dance lies.

 

There is one solid fact in all this, even though my interpretation of Alfredson’s protocol was different, it was working very much in a positive way and improving my heel problems substantially. My belief it was the high demand option I chose in the presents of very cold muscles, with that combination I should have known better. I guess in that instance I was tired and just wanted to get to bed.

 

Hi Lin

How are you going to cope with three days of LAB Spring Intensive, remember last year I did 12 full days on the trot with ENB classes in the evening, two days off followed by another full week, you need some more Sheddies.

[LinMM]

Exactly!! A bit of a worry! but hopefully the difference will be I won't be doing it after three weeks of no dancing!! It may have been just too many hours after such a gap......I do have to remember I'm 66 sometimes!! But I do try to listen to my body and it definitely was saying dont dance on the Sunday!! I'll email you as am having trouble with Facebook at the moment since I removed my phone number this afternoon I can't post anything there!!

[Thecatsmother]

It might be interesting to ask a professional dancer if they could do what you said you were doing without getting cramp and what the perceived benefit might be?

 

I know it's hard when off dancing but I hope professional opinion will help you get back on your feet if you behave:)

 

I am still struggling to do 10 reps with a mini Theraband with my big toe correctly but my foot is very weak and learning to pointe as if it never had before.

[mimi66]

Michelle,  I guess this is clearly the case of "it takes one to know one" .

 

Just like to add that even professionals go back to basics and correct their technique after injury - because even a slight wobble in technique would in accumulation (with the demands professionals face) causes injury and they know it.   One never achieves perfect technique all the time, even after 15+ years of training since childhood (and those people have bodies made for ballet).

 

Take care, x

Edited January 6, 2014 by mimi66

[Anna C]

Sorry to interject, but Is it ever safe and/or advisable to do 200 reps of ANY exercise? Surely that must be just asking for some kind of repetitive strain injury - especially 200 reps of a weight bearing exercise like a rise?

 

I am no expert by the way but have been given enough physio exercises over the years and the most reps I've ever been prescribed in one setting was 20 or so.

[Anjuli_Bai]

If 8 are good 88 is not better.

[Anna C]

Thank you Anjuli, that's what I suspected.

 

"More isn't always better, Linus. Sometimes it's just more."

 

Julia Ormond, "Sabrina".

[LinMM]

Ive never been given more than about a dozen for any one occasion......and sometimes only three then a rest ( ironically ipad came up with feast instead of rest!!) then another three and so on.

There's no point in doing 200 reps from where I am......there's no Iron Lady medal involved here but I suppose it's easy to think more reps will make you stronger but as with everything there is a fine balance tobe struck when going over the top becomes harmful. Athletes talk about this in their training.....between being super fit ....or unwell ...and suffering from all sorts of glandular or blood disturbances.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi mimi66

I understand your comment about “go back to basics and correct their technique after injury”, I'm not sure how I going to come out of this as its early days yet. But I know when I walked down the street this afternoon, I was constantly shifting my weight (swaying ) from side to side, apart from the limp, I also found I was constantly looking at the ground which is so alien to me, I hate it. My turn out is a lot less, there is no knee or ankle turn out and I'm not talking about excessive forced turn out which is totally inappropriate.

 

In any case I can never avoid doing basic’s even though now all my classes apart from ENB do support performances.

 

General

Number of rep when doing rises, I would do them in batches of 50 spaced out during the day to build up stamina and strength. The 200 was not a recommendation from anywhere just a figure that I knew was sustainable. Also from my martial arts training a few years back suggested strength building came from taking exercises (reps) into fatigue, not beyond to total exhaustion.

 

The resistance band exercise again was done in batches of 50 but alternating each leg. There was no reason to space them out. I used them to fill slack time either waiting for ENB to open, I would go into Hyde park and knock 200 reps off on each foot, or where ever I was.

 

From a professional protocol “Alfredsons Protocol” does in fact call for 180 reps per day per 7 days a week for 12 weeks. As the 90 is done with a strait leg and a bent leg too.

 

PS I've dropped the jelly heel pads today, but couldn’t go as far as ballet slippers, maybe tomorrow after the physio.

[Anna C]

Yes, I've read about Alfredson's Protocol and if your physio recommended working up to 180 reps then fair enough. But of course that doesn't mean that a high number of reps for any other exercise is safe or desirable. It's a bit like medicine doseage IMHO; different doses for different medications.

 

Does your physio know about the number of reps you are doing with your other exercises, Michelle? I'm just concerned in case the high reps you have been doing have actually contributed to your injury. :-(

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

You also go on to mention “climb up rather than rise”, I would suggest that a climb up is in fact a slow rise that requires and good deal of sustained effort and strength, as opposed to a spring which has momentum. This is very evident when trying to do high leg extensions, one can usually kick a lot higher, than one can lift and hold it.

 

I really don’t understand what context this relates too “this involves holding up your knees correctly, not sinking into your hip, not sitting your weight on to your metatarsal”, are we talking releve’s or single heel drops from 6th, as it makes no sense.

 

I am not a ballet teacher, but I would suggest that the fact you describe a rise as 'climbing' shows that you need to do more with your body in order to do rises safely and correctly. If you are dependent on you feet doing all the work for rises (climbing to get there), you are putting a lot of extra pressure on your feet when it's not necessary to do so. As I mentioned in another post, I learnt from doing pointe work that a rise does not involve the feet doing all the work.

 

It's not just with rises and releves that the knees should be held correctly, not sinking into hips, etc. Heel drops in pararel/6th postion are dangerous if your knees are not aligned with your hips and feet correctly. it's the same if it's on one foot. Add to that, if your foot rolls in or out, and you're doing multiple repetitions, it's a recipe for injury (or making injury worse) I'm afraid. I don't mean to say you do this or not. It's just hard to watch alignment issues when you're doing heal drops by yourself. They are dangerous for everyone.

 

 

Your final sentence to the same para seem to suggest something (possibly) releve’s cannot be taught from a book or video, I personally think a video can contribute tremendous value, certainly for consistency, but in any case you are fully are that I also have a large number of teachers too and corrections when appropriate, but its always good to get a “Nice one” remark after doing an enchainement in an Advanced/ Intermediate class only to find the same enchainement was used in a professional company class by the same teacher, for me that was a big WOW.

 

As for demonstrating to my physio, I did do that originally but it was only for a single rep. I have since found the procedure I was using on a professional sports site, but only when the sports persons ankles had gained sufficient strength. As for demonstrating, tomorrow, is eezee peezee with the left foot, but I’m not too sure about the right, drops only, at best it’s a may be, as I was originally doing it, no chance, not even with pain which there would be lots.

 

As for doing releve’s generally, these were closely scrutinised in our pointe strength building classes, so I really don’t think there is any mileage to be found there, also prior to all this most days I used to do 200 rep rises (Both feet) in batches of 50, also when waiting for class I would also do a similar number of reps for each leg with a resistance band, I snapped two bands that way.

 

As for “This is why one should not practice ballet without a qualified teacher's supervision.”, you know I will never buy into that one, primarily I will learn repertoire first, then go though it with my rep coach on a one-to-one basis for correction. Performing repertoire from the classics is where my real love of dance lies.

 

There is one solid fact in all this, even though my interpretation of Alfredson’s protocol was different, it was working very much in a positive way and improving my heel problems substantially. My belief it was the high demand option I chose in the presents of very cold muscles, with that combination I should have known better. I guess in that instance I was tired and just wanted to get to bed.

 

When I was recovering from a knee injury, the first thing my ballet teacher asked me to do was a full plie in first. It was my first 'proper' class after recovering from injury. From 'just' a plie my teacher could tell me where I was compensating and where my placement had changed to 'protect' the injured knee. She said that plies always show where placement had gone off. She also said that injury makes a dancer change their placement to protect/compensate, which is why it's important to go back to basics as you recover from an injury.

I have not had a pleasure of watching a professional ballet class live, just on YouTube. The most recent class I watched was the Royal Ballet class filmed from 2012 or 2013. But the first thing I noticed (apart from the wonderful and effortless perfect lines) was the corrections. The dancers are told to keep their turnout, don't turn in and out, get back to fifth, etc. My point is the professionals still rely on a teacher to realign/correct them because the body is good at 'lying' to yourself. It also proves that it's not a good idea to work on ballet without a ballet teacher's supervision.

 

You said you felt a thrill watching the prefessional do the same enchainment as the one you were given in class. I would like to point out that the thrill of watching the professionals do the same enchainment is to see how it should be done properly. It's a chance to learn more about line and technique and see how you can improve your own work.

[LinMM]

I think one of the important things about both releves and simple rises is that the body goes first so to speak!! With the head initiating the movement.....more so in a simple rise as there is not so much impetus from the floor as in a releve.

 

When standing still say in first position there are the two forces at play as I see it. The downward force towards the floor from the lower back and legs and the upward force which in a sense also comes from the lower back into the upper back where you are pulled up but then also a slight downwards force from the shoulders as well but an upward movement of the neck and head!!

Sorry if sounds complicated but am actually doing it trying to feel these opposing forces!

 

Once you then.....have the intention.....to do a simple rise in first say.....the head and upper body then initiate this movement upwards but because in the perfect scenario your core is strong and the body strongly pulled together this takes the weight off the feet as you rise up. If you are perfectly aligned in the spine it should then in fact be easy to balance....even on pointe......and of course all of this is more relevant still if you are continuing the rise up onto pointe.

Because a releve is started more from a small demi plié there is more impetus from the floor but the feeling in the body should still be an upward movement and on pointe especially you are always pulled upwards off the feet so to speak.

 

However the body has to be strong both the legs and the core to do this properly.....hence all the training before going onto pointe.....and why it is not advisable to do pointe work until you can do a strong rise and balance on demi pointe where everything in the legs and back etc is pretty taut......no bendy knees......no feet not into full demi position......no sagging in the middle!!!

 

All of this applies to jumping as well......it is the head and body which initiates the upward movement really......the plié is important for the return to Earth as such......a safe landing.....but even in the plié....when jumping....there is still an intention of the body upwards.

 

A person from America returning to ballet on another thread on this Forum posted a picture of her in demi pointe position. This looks very good from the feet at least she looks right at the top of the demi position......obviously can't see her body and whether she can balance in this position but it is a good piccie of the feet if anyone was not sure!!

 

It's extremely hard putting some ideas into writing as so much of ballet is experiencing things in the body just hope this is helpful.....or does anyone have other ideas?

And although I try to practice as described doesn't mean I always do it successfully!!

[Anjuli_Bai]

When I rise onto demi-pointe, I feel the lift both upward and forward - initiated as if there was a hook inserted in the center front of the sternum just where the ribs separate.  That gives me the feeling of lift in the body while the shoulders and head ride easily above it all.  It is as if that "hook" were pulling me up and forward over the forepart of my feet.  If one is well placed the body will balance all by itself - one part above the other with little effort.

 

As for multitudes of repetitions - never

 

Heel drops - never

 

But that's just me.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Spannerandponey

 

I made a check list this morning before going to see my physio to make sure I addressed all the instances I have of high repetition endurance exercises. These included:

a) 200 rep rises in batches of 50 spaced through the day.

200 Rep resistance band workout each foot in batches of 50 before alternating the foot

c) 50 rep demi-plie’s with a pelvic floor exerciser for resistance

d) 30 rep grand plie whist on demi-point carrying a 20kg load via a spinnaker bar.

 

Her response was, if that’s what I was used to she see no problem in what I was doing other that if I was doing rises then the resistance band work was a waste of time, but when I explained that this was usually to kill time waiting to get into class/studio, she thought it was a useful exercise to warm up the feet.

 

Dear Dancer Sugar Plum

It seems I must give you correction, you have miss-quoted me, I said “that a climb up is in fact a slow rise”, you have said that I “describe a rise as 'climbing”, That is like saying a house is red, therefore red must be a house, if you get my drift. You mention other aspects of alignment on rises and releve’s but no mention of breath, isn't that important? particularly the out breath and its effect contracting muscles?

 

You also make the point “Heel drops in parallel/6th position are dangerous if your knees are not aligned with your hips and feet correctly. it's the same if it's on one foot”, if they are not usually that suggest miss-alignment due to forced turn-out, but in 6th position that just doesn't make sense, what is the mechanism that give rise to rolling the feet?

For Rises from first position, if there is forced turn out, the decent will not land correctly at its origin and an attempt to re-correct it would seem futile.

 

For 5th Position there is virtually always some forced turn out at the knee as the hips only account for 130 degrees, with knees 20 degrees forced turn out and 30 degrees from the ankle.

I cant recall doing rises in 5th but I am sure we have, but releve’s yes very common and I can fully understand how foot/leg damage can take place with excessive forced turn-out.

 

I thought I had already made the point that I understand the significance after injury of getting back to correct alignment/technique, I know I will have issue, you can feel it. I'm sure many of my teachers will provide that correction without any prompting as they are fully aware why I'm absent.

 

I like the way you assume the professional are perfect, life not like that, they are very good but they are human. I see differences in timing, both from company class and in performances, but never on a recorded DVD. A term Mimi66 is fond of “spatial awareness”, I see crooked lines in performances. Yes its all very difficult and the professionals do an excellent job, but to perfection, not quite at least not every time.

 

For me I'm not a professional and do not have the body or lifespan left to do so, so driving for that level of perfection is totally impractical. That doesn’t mean I don’t like to give a good account of myself, we all do.

 

As for “it's not a good idea to work on ballet without a ballet teacher's supervision”, to keep this into context, I probably get more supervision than most, but because I haven't had lots of years of training to fall back on, I have to pick this up by preparation, something that has given me a successful discriminator during my working career. So I will always utilise that strategy and make no apology for it.

 

General:

Even though there is no support on this forum for “Alredson’s Heel-drop Protocol”, I'm convinced if its done the way I now understand it, its perfectly safe. However there are a number of exercise related to Achille’s Tendonopathy and its easy to confuse them as they are closely related.

After discussion with my physio this morning, we both agree that the procedure I originally used had been beneficial. However it was more demanding on my foot. The revised position is for heel drops only, the rise is achieved by the other foot. It is also though this is better done in trainers rather than bar feet or ballet slippers.

 

The problem I experience over New Year was put down to my exercising very cold muscles with the more demanding procedure.

 

The outcome of the visit today is that the Achilles' has heeled nicely, however there is some soreness on the bursar at the lower back of the heel, I am to subject that to Ice for 10 minutes, every two hours, or to Biofreeze when I'm out.

 

I have a further check next Tuesday and will be returning to classes at LAB the following Thursday and resume ENB the week after. My physio is quite comfortable with that.

 

At the moment all tape is off and I'm walking around in flat footed in my ballet slipper, but I still have a little bit of a limp.

[mimi66]

[...]

 

You also make the point “Heel drops in parallel/6th position are dangerous if your knees are not aligned with your hips and feet correctly. it's the same if it's on one foot”, if they are not usually that suggest miss-alignment due to forced turn-out, but in 6th position that just doesn't make sense, what is the mechanism that give rise to rolling the feet?

For Rises from first position, if there is forced turn out, the decent will not land correctly at its origin and an attempt to re-correct it would seem futile.

 

For 5th Position there is virtually always some forced turn out at the knee as the hips only account for 130 degrees, with knees 20 degrees forced turn out and 30 degrees from the ankle.

I cant recall doing rises in 5th but I am sure we have, but releve’s yes very common and I can fully understand how foot/leg damage can take place with excessive forced turn-out.

 

[...]

 

 

Misalignements occure in 6th position,too.  In fact, without going through proper training for a long period of time, most people would have misalined 6th position. Also, it is necessary to use your turn out when standing in correct 6th positon.  "Turn out" is not only about opening your feet and knees.

 

I know it sounds bizzarre for some, but that's ballet, I am afraid.

Edited January 7, 2014 by mimi66

[Anna C]

Hello Michelle,

 

I'm very glad you are seeing some improvement. :-) I think the ice is also a good idea and Biofreeze is meant to be effective so I hope it helps your pain.

 

I am not a physio but I cannot agree that continuing such hugely high reps of any exercise which uses your injured foot could be safe or desirable when there is clearly an injury still there. Better IMHO to let the injury heal and the inflammation/bursitis to calm before you potentially aggravate it again.

 

I cannot imagine either my own physio or my daughter's hugely experienced dance physio being happy with that; they both prescribe exercises but gently and with low reps to start off with, especially where pain and inflammation are involved. Often, depending on the injury, they prescribe treatment and rest only.

 

Just my two pennies worth though. I hope you continue to heal. :-)

[2dancersmum]

Glad to hear of your improvement Michelle and that you will be back to classes soon.

[LinMM]

What is 6th position?

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

Michelle,

 

I stand by what I said, and I believe I have not mis-quoted you. My point was a concern that if you treated a rise (quick or slow) as a 'climb up' I was concerned that your whole body was not doing enough to help your feet. Rises should feel like you are taking your body away from your feet as far away as possible.

 

I agree with Mimi66, there is turn-out in 6th position. Turnout doesn't have to be thigh, knees and feet rotated out to the side. If your inner thighs are not engaged to keep your legs and feet properly aligned I would suggest there is a danger that you are possibly rolling in. This is just a suggestion. A podiatrist once told me that most of the population roll in or out the feet; there are very few people who are naturally perfectly central through their feet in their placement. Because of the way female hips are constructed, he said females are more likely to roll in. It doesn't have to be a lot to be called 'rolling in'. This is why it's important for an excercise in pararell to be 'turned out' too.

 

You suggest that you 'get more supervision than most'. Obviously, it's great you feel that way, but it's fact of (ballet) life that it takes time (ie years) for the body to acquire the correct technique and alignment. I apologise if you do not like my opinion, but I'm only speaking from my own experience, and noticing that even talented children and teenagers do not get 'fast-tracked' through the years they need to be in serious training.

 

I am also concerned with the high number of your reps you 'need' to do. I am also concerned that your physio believes it is 'okay' to do grand plies carrying a 20kg load. It's a fact (I believe) that full plies add 700 times your weight onto your knees. And that's without carrying anything, except your own body weight! It makes me question whether your physio understands the demands of ballet on someone's body? I say this because I have seen physios in the past, who gave less than helpful advice because they hadn't a clue about the demands of ballet. Fortunately, I did find a physio who had studied ballet, and I cannot describe how useful it was not to have to explain what the difference between a demi-plie and a releve was. If your physio has indeed had ballet training, I would be very unsure of taking her advice. I think I would also want to change physios. I hasten to add that I am only speaking from experience and giving my own opinion, which I hope is of some help.

[LinMM]

Am a bit worried about the 30 reps of grand plié "whilst in demi point carrying the weight etc......"

 

Do you mean you start this plié already in demi pointe? So it's not a true ballet one so to speak? If this is a sort of gym type exercise then there won't be an emphasis on turnout as in ballet. Would this be normally done with feet parallel or very slight turnout.

 

In a ballet grand plié the whole point is to only release the heels at the last minute so you are in a deep demi plié (and how I wish mine could be deeper) for as long as possible just releasing the heels to finish off and then replacing the heels as quickly as possible when rising up again. The danger of the grand plie as I see it is that If the core is not strong you tend to sink the body into the plié and this can cause a great deal of stress on the knees if you are not careful.

 

Your exercise holding the bar sounds different in that you start the plié on demi pointe from the beginning?? This will have a different effect on the foot and leg muscles presumably and won't help your ballet grand plié to develop.

Thirty grand plies.....in whichever way performed....sounds excessive even for a young person but in anyone much over the age of 45-50 positively lethal to the knees!!

Don't you think you could still be very fit without these high number of reps......it's the doing them every day which keeps the muscles toned so even a quarter of the reps that you do on a daily basis (and this is not counting all the classes you do) should keep you pretty fit I would imagine!!

I think you should make 2014 a bit easier for yourself!! I'm taking the liberty here of being a bit bossy as I know you and you won't take offence (hopefully) It's great that you take your fitness so seriously but I always remember my dad playing a game of cricket for his Works team when he was in his early 50's and diving for a ball as if he was a 20 year old( in that moment he probably thought he was still) and ended up with a broken collar bone! (Much to my mums annoyance)

Just be careful Michelle.....have just booked the Giselle workshop by the way so hope to see you there!

[LinMM]

Sorry just to add that I also feel a bit concerned about your physio. From the way the post is worded I get the feeling she is leaving things up to you "if that's what you're used to doing" This makes me think that she doesn't really know very much about ballet(perhaps she did a couple of years as a child?) so she is unable to advise you properly.

As you do such a lot of dancing could you not find a real Dance Physio......especially specialising in Dance.

If not locally what about London as you do come down quite a bit and its not as if you would have to see him/her that often once the injury has cleared but good for a check up every now and then.

 

I believe the Rambert are setting up treatment rooms in their new building it could be worth finding out if they will have a Dance Physio there regularly.

Just a thought anyway.