John Mallinson Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 We will presumably never hear the Royal Ballet or Monica Mason's version of the circumstances of Cojocaru's leaving in full, and every story has two sides. Nor will we get further by duking it out here. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Williams Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 '...>Nor will we get further by duking it out here.<...' Normally, I'd agree with that point, but if we leave it at that Monica Mason's term as AD is left considerably tarnished by the impression given in Ismene Brown's interview in theTelegraph, and few of us here would want that. For one thing, if is hard to believe that MM actually used the words 'not RB style' - Ismene may have interpreted Alina's words as that, given that Alina's English is not perfect, or Alina may actually have used the words meaning that MM meant that her performance - as Aurora - didn't suit the RB's production of 'Sleeping Beauty' (though it's even harder to believe that) NOT that her dancing as a whole didn't suit the 'RB style', which is the impression we are left with.. And sadly, it may simply be that - as Mijosh above suggests - Johan Kobborg influenced the final version of Ismene's interview in th way that he wanted . As John Mallinson says above, we will probably never hear Monica Mason's version of the story, but please, please, do not leave Dame Monica's long and distinguished career with the Royal Ballet - both as dancer and as AD - with this final negative and unhappy memory. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 (edited) This is very offensive and quite squalid. The humiliation she had from Mason wasn’t enough: Cojocaru has also to know to be considered a liar by Mr Bangorballettboy. As for me, I knew about that, exactly in the same terms, on the 12th of March 2011, Saturday afternoon, in a very crowded James Street and I still trust to the sincerity of Alina’s tears. Please don't put words into my mouth. One person has stated something in a newspaper. That does not of itself make it a "fact". Edited October 13, 2013 by bangorballetboy Correcting typo 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 We will presumably never hear the Royal Ballet or Monica Mason's version of the circumstances of Cojocaru's leaving in full, and every story has two sides. Nor will we get further by duking it out here. I agree with John. This thread is getting rather out of hand and unduly personal. Let's just enjoy the fact that Alina is still dancing in the UK and turn our attention once again to her performances. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Yes the worst didn't happen Alina will still be dancing reasonably regularly in the UK!! I find it hard to imagine that Monica Mason spoke to Alina in that sort of way and would be very surprised if there had not been further discussions between Alina and the Management about her future in the months preceeding. But I do feel and only from what I have read that Alina may have been looking for a change anyway. She 's 32 so although still young in one sense not in a dancers sense.....so may just want to try different styles that at this point the Royal couldn't offer her. Also when you have had an injury it does tend to remind you that your life as a dancer may be shorter than you want it to be!! It was unfortunate however the way it seemed to have happened(leaving the Royal) With all the innuendo and so on. I love Alina as a dancer and hope she gets the opportunities she is seeking but I also feel the Royal can withstand her loss. There is just so much talent in the Company at the moment!! The truth is probably in the middle somewhere somewhat elevated from our reach! Sorry if this doesn't actually add much in real knowledge. On a lighter night and completely off topic.....I'll never forget Monica Mason as Myrthe Queen of Willis in Giselle definitely one of the best IMHO Linda 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 '...>Nor will we get further by duking it out here.<...' Normally, I'd agree with that point, but if we leave it at that Monica Mason's term as AD is left considerably tarnished by the impression given in Ismene Brown's interview in theTelegraph, and few of us here would want that. For one thing, if is hard to believe that MM actually used the words 'not RB style' - Ismene may have interpreted Alina's words as that, given that Alina's English is not perfect, or Alina may actually have used the words meaning that MM meant that her performance - as Aurora - didn't suit the RB's production of 'Sleeping Beauty' (though it's even harder to believe that) NOT that her dancing as a whole didn't suit the 'RB style', which is the impression we are left with.. And sadly, it may simply be that - as Mijosh above suggests - Johan Kobborg influenced the final version of Ismene's interview in th way that he wanted . As John Mallinson says above, we will probably never hear Monica Mason's version of the story, but please, please, do not leave Dame Monica's long and distinguished career with the Royal Ballet - both as dancer and as AD - with this final negative and unhappy memory. No matter what we as a forum think, surely it's for Kevin O'Hare to sort out on behalf of Monica Mason? None of us were in the room at the time and getting into arguments about it here is not going to help sort the issue out. We will each have our memories and our opinion of the Royal Ballet under various ADs and if Kevin O'Hare is seriously concerned that one comment made by a departing dancer is going to sully Dame Monica's reputation to that extent, he has the option of setting the record straight from the Management's point of view. That might sort things out once and for all, or it might not - but sure as eggs are eggs, a long and speculative argument on here will surely not. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I agree that we're never going to get a definitive account of what Monica Mason said to Alina Cojacaru at any point during their time together at the RB. Regrettably, it seems to be open season on MM, and a number of journalists seem to be looking to 'dig the dirt' when they interview former RB dancers whose accounts of their experiences of working at the RB are taken at face value and not challenged even mildly. It seems clear to me that relations between Alina and the RB soured and few people will know at fist hand the reasons behind this. Personally, looking at Alina's numerous scheduled performances as a guest artist this year, I wonder whether it was a desire to dance more with other companies which was a cause of conflict. On top of that, she may have felt that she was being sidelined when the RB announced the appointment of Natalia Osipova. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 There is just so much talent in the Company at the moment!! Really? I know that I'm being provocative in raising this question but, Marianela apart, I am feeling a little underwhelmed by what the RB is offering at the moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 For another thread I think but I was taking an overall view of the Company maybe not from a "stars" point of view. There is a lot of young talent in the company imho anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Artistic director's are free to have their personal preferences as well. Maybe Mason just preferred Nunez, Rojo, Lamb et al as dancers, and while that must have been hard for Alina, it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mijosh Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 It would appear that there is a mole on this site and this thread (or parts of it) are now all over Kobborg's facebook posting. He finds it hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 For another thread I think but I was taking an overall view of the Company maybe not from a "stars" point of view. There is a lot of young talent in the company imho anyway. True, it is perhaps for another thread but, if there is a lot of young talent in the company, why these talents are not nurtured and encouraged to dance leading roles? OK, two ballerinas retired at the end of their career; one more - as became known already in 2011 - was leaving for another company; then Alina left. Which RB talented own dancers were groomed by that time to replace them? I am happy to have a chance to see Obraztsova, Salenko, Golding and especially Osipova in London but the nurturance of the company’s own principals should be - IMHO - a priority for the management. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobK Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Can I just add that in my view the article in the Telegraph does no-one any favours, including Alina, and, perhaps, it would have been better if it had not been written ! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angela Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Artistic director's are free to have their personal preferences as well. Maybe Mason just preferred Nunez, Rojo, Lamb et al as dancers, and while that must have been hard for Alina, it happens. Artistic directors should try to keep as many good dancers happy as the can, not prefer one over the other and risk to drive somebody away. How else should a company with seven or eight female principals work?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Artistic directors should try to keep as many good dancers happy as the can, not prefer one over the other and risk to drive somebody away. How else should a company with seven or eight female principals work?? Maybe she didn't think Cojocaru was worth keeping? Everyone has their opinions anf favourite dancers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angela Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Everyone has their opinions anf favourite dancers. WE, the audience, have our opinions and favourite dancers. An AD has a responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamicro Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 It would appear that there is a mole on this site and this thread (or parts of it) are now all over Kobborg's facebook posting. He finds it hilarious. When I met Cojocaru in Rome she addressed me “you said you weren’t coming”. I was surprised, went back to the hotel, checked e-mails, texts, Whatsup and found nothing. I wrote that only here: the day after she had to confess. You would be surprised to know that, as for almost every ballet forrum, you can access balletcoforum just opening the main page: it’s a public site, you need to have an account only to write, not to read. And Kobborg opened that page and read the thread that have his name in the title. But if you want to know who unveiled to Kobborg that at least one of the poster, you, was a facebook friend of him I have no problem to raise my hand. Not really sure he found hilarious to be called “Svengali”: maybe you can test it calling him that way the next time you meet. But I’d suggest you to not do that. Anyway, with the authorization and encouragement of the author (note for Bruce and myself too), I’m copying here what Kobborg wrote on his private facebook page: Johan Kobborg 2 hours ago Dear Ann Williams and Mijosh (of the balletcoforum) I am writing you here as I don't have an account with BCF, but is sure that as usual, my update here will hit the forum sooner or later. I just wanted to show you my gratitude as I have been smiling all day. I wanted to thank you for the belief in, and respect you bestow upon me. To know, that you think, that I could possibly be that powerful a dancer. Its quite an honour. Sadly though I must admit that I do not work as an editor for the Telegraph, their writers, or any subject they might interview, nor do I share my editorial gifts, with my family and friends. I do like to spread my wings and interests, over a large spectrum of different genres, but my command of the english language is unfortunately not strong enough. In fact, I am sure that this status is full of spelling and grammar mistakes, and trust me, under normal circumstances I would have had Alina proof read this, as she is quite often good with basic english words, but she is at the gym. I am very happy dancing, and now and then, creating and staging. Thats all there is on on my agenda, all I have time for, and all I ever (to use your word) WANTED. I cant help noticing, that you Ann, have a few spelling mistakes too, but I am sure your english is good enough, to understand what I have written here. If not, perhaps Ismene will translate. thanks again (ps - Since you wrote it on a public forum, I trust its ok to post the below on my FB) Johan Kobborg funny thing is that Mijosh who in a previous BCF message, felt it was Svengali kobborg behind the interview... if you dont know what Svengali means, see link. Funny thing is, that Mijosh is still on my FB friends list... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svengali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 WE, the audience, have our opinions and favourite dancers. An AD has a responsibility. Yes, they have a responsibility to cast the best dancers for the roles. If, and it is a big if as this is all speculation, Mason didn't think Cojocaru was the best dancer for the role of Aurora, then that is her opinion and as AD she has the right to cast dancers she feels are more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 (edited) I'd just like to say that Alina's is one of the most beautifully danced and portrayed Auroras I have seen (ENB's Elena Glurdjidze's is another) - and, over the years, I have been to what feels like hundreds of performances of Sleeping Beauty by all the 'home' companies and many from abroad. Edited October 13, 2013 by capybara 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I'd just like to say that Alina's is one of the most beautifully danced and portrayed Auroras I have seen (ENB's Elena Glurdjidze's is another) - and, over the years, I have been to what feels like hundreds of performances of Sleeping Beauty by all the 'home' companies and many from abroad. Oh, i'm not making a comment on Cojocaru's Aurora. I've never seen her dance, but i'm sure she's amazing. I was just trying to make the point that artistic directors do have the right to cast whoever they want in each role (that is their job after all) and while we as fans might not like their decisions, they have earned the right to make them. I think there is a danger in looking for deeper meaning or ulterior motive in decisions that may have been based on nothing more than preference for one dancers interpretation over anothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mijosh Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 So,my assumption was right,even to who the mole might be. But I,unlike you,did not name names I can't help wondering why Kobborg would trouble to look at this site unless he had been steered,advised even, to do so. Should he trouble to read here further - with or without your encouragement - he may care to know that while I deeply respect and greatly admire him as brilliant dancer and man of the theatre,my opinion of him as a person is far less charitable. A feeling, I would add, which is shared by any number of his former colleagues in the Royal Ballet. As a footnote,I recall a conversation of about 20 minutes I had with Kobborg out on the terrace of the ROH not too long after MM's first season as Director of the company. I expressed,inter alia, my admiration for her as a person and for what she had achieved in her new role. His response was chilly and guardedly hostile to say the least,even that far back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Gracious me; all this talk of moles puts me in mind of "Homeland". :-D So,my assumption was right,even to who the mole might be. Should he trouble to read here further - with or without your encouragement - he may care to know that while I deeply respect and greatly admire him as brilliant dancer and man of the theatre,my opinion of him as a person is far less charitable. A feeling, I would add, which is shared by any number of his former colleagues in the Royal Ballet. Mijosh, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but I do not think you can or should comment on the feelings and opinions of other people, i.e. Royal Ballet dancers and staff. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I know for a fact that many dancers and other company members dip in and out of this site. As has been repeatedly said - no-one apart from the direct participants will know the whole story. It is a fact of life that 2 people can have a conversation and each will come away with a different interpretation. I saw this happen many times in my working life and, indeed, outside of work. We are where we are and I think we should move forward and look towards enjoying Ms Cojocaru's performances with ENB and elsewhere. I had already booked my ticket for Thursday in MK before it was even known that she was joining ENB and I am very much looking forward to seeing her dance. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Yup - Nutcracker for us Jan - can't wait! :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 It would appear that there is a mole on this site and this thread (or parts of it) are now all over Kobborg's facebook posting. He finds it hilarious. There is no mole on the site at all - it's a public place. Daft to think otherwise. In posting anything one should assume that anybody named will get to know what was said at some point. I think the article was fine and on the record when so much else is not. I'm sure Alina knew what she was saying and I'm also sure Ismene Brown recorded it faithfully. Of course, as John says, its one side of a story and there would be another. But I cast no slur on what was said in public as opposed to what others might intimate off the record in private and which gets relayed on and confused a time or three. The great thing is that Alina is happy and dancing in something new and also dancing around the UK for the first time - which is terrific. One thing that surprises me is that nobody has mentioned Guillem also having a go at RB management/Monica Mason - and a very hard attack as well: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/features/sylvie-guillem-the-most-exciting-dancer-in-the-world-is-back-at-sadlers-wells--and-shes-got-scores-to-settle-8609490.html 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamicro Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I know for a fact that many dancers and other company members dip in and out of this site. Infact I was "encouraged" to read the last comments, something I'd have preferred to avoid. Isn't time for moderators to stop insults? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 As a footnote,I recall a conversation of about 20 minutes I had with Kobborg out on the terrace of the ROH not too long after MM's first season as Director of the company. I expressed,inter alia, my admiration for her as a person and for what she had achieved in her new role. His response was chilly and guardedly hostile to say the least,even that far back. I say this as a private individual: This is not on. You had a private conversation with somebody and they would not expect to see it quoted publicly to all. This is not acceptable behavior. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamicro Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 There is no mole on the site at all - it's a public place. Daft to think otherwise. In posting anything one should assume that anybody named will get to know what was said at some point. I think the article was fine and on the record when so much else is not. I'm sure Alina knew what she was saying and I'm also sure Ismene Brown recorded it faithfully. Of course, as John says, its one side of a story and there would be another. But I cast no slur on what was said in public as opposed to what others might intimate off the record in private and which gets relayed on and confused a time or three. The great thing is that Alina is happy and dancing in something new and also dancing around the UK for the first time - which is terrific. One thing that surprises me is that nobody has mentioned Guillem also having a go at RB management/Monica Mason - and a very hard attack as well: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/features/sylvie-guillem-the-most-exciting-dancer-in-the-world-is-back-at-sadlers-wells--and-shes-got-scores-to-settle-8609490.html Thank you Bruce, you posted while I was trying to restore my connection. I wrote elsewhere that maybe it was Guillem to edit Ismene Brown interview. Or maybe Kobborg works also for the Independent. Not sure Guillem would have been happy to see somebody else "fingers" on her words. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Infact I was "encouraged" to read the last comments, something I'd have preferred to avoid. Isn't time for moderators to stop insults? I'm sorry but I don't understand your comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Thanks for the article Bruce. This is almost more revealing from Guillem than the recent tv prog on her. I'm pleased to see she still has a friendship with Dowell at least! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I say this as a private individual: This is not on. You had a private conversation with somebody and they would not expect to see it quoted publicly to all. This is not acceptable behavior. As a Moderator, I agree with Bruce wholeheartedly. I also disapprove of the "Svengali Kobborg" comment. If this thread descends into unconstructive bickering it may have to be locked. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I thought that some of Guillem's comments about MM were really unpleasant and, in making them, she came across as arrogant and unpleasant. When I read them I decided that I wasn't going to take any interest in her or go and see her perform. I'm getting really fed up with people having a go at someone who realistically has no right of reply. I also wish that people would be a bit more nuanced in explaining the reasons for their decisions. They are adults and portraying MM as the villain and themselves an innocent victim is, IMHO, a bit childish. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 (edited) I'm getting really fed up with people having a go at someone who realistically has no right of reply. I know how you feel concerning this, Aileen - especially when matters become so personal (as some have seemed here at least to me of late) and when the commentary moves far away (even in reviews) from the heart of dance and its related production which is, I believe, the heart of this admirable undertaking. Can I be the only person on this forum board who has felt exactly the same as you have so clearly expressed Aileen - let us say distinctly uneasy - about at least one of the items on this particular board [i was shocked to see it return after having been removed for review .... and would love to know the reasoning behind that judgement (e.g., for its reappearance) by the appropriate balletcoforum arbitrators] and certainly several other notations on the board specifically concerning Matthew Golding? There is part of me that very much hopes not .... otherwise I am I fear REALLY out on a limb. Edited October 13, 2013 by Meunier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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