company auditions, why so few places...?

[Allwrong]

DD discovered the ROH insights aged 14, and has been hooked on them ever since. They have also led to her branching out to non RB choreographers. By 16 she was really well informed about numerous classical choreographers, styles and traditions. A rich education for free, supplemented by second hand books for next to nothing. Live-stream cinema tickets and £9-11 ROH restricted view tickets have been birthday and Christmas-list staples for  some years (great for grandparents suggestions). Megabus and the great good fortune of cousins in London has meant that ROH live could work out cheaper than the rather pricey cinema, despite being in the provinces.

So it can be done cheaply, but depends on the child being interested. Honestly, it was cheaper and less of a toll on the family to leave her in her room watching ballet videos than ferrying her to ballet classes! Her enthusiasm for watching may well come from her having a rather meagre diet of classes. 

[FlexyNexy]

I see from this hot topic post that nothing has changed since our graduating years.

But even if they get a company job, would they be able to survive without parent financially injecting time to time? My daughter gave up her professional career in dance just because of the low income she was offered. On the income that EU companies offered I would have to continue and pay her rent (small room in shared accommodation). We have supported it for a year and then she had enough finding extra money to support her “day job”. I am glad she jumped out of the ballet wagon early enough.

We have two very close friends that are same age as her who continue to dance, but parents are continuing to pump money and cover expenses. Another girl I know she is now 22 and still dancing in post graduate programs hoping to secure job.

I would not want this for my child to be honest. I am not sure why I have not seen this before; I would not allow her to accept schools.

My daughter was one of the children who never went to see live performance on family private time, maybe couple of Nutcrackers during Christmas or as a toddler ENB My First…she told me that she has enough of it during day and on her time off she wants to do her other hobbies. She has even banned us from dance related gifts 😊 My hubby slept during  all of her performances and I had not enjoyed them as I was focusing on waking him up so he does not snore. He was in charge of bringing flowers to the stage door and that’s about it. Even the Nutcrackers I did not enjoy as she was commenting and correcting all dancers during the performance. When I asked how she enjoyed the performance, she would respond “it was ok, now where we go for lunch”….

[Ballet Saga]

21 minutes ago, Allwrong said:

DD discovered the ROH insights aged 14, and has been hooked on them ever since. They have also led to her branching out to non RB choreographers. By 16 she was really well informed about numerous classical choreographers, styles and traditions. A rich education for free, supplemented by second hand books for next to nothing. Live-stream cinema tickets and £9-11 ROH restricted view tickets have been birthday and Christmas-list staples for  some years (great for grandparents suggestions). Megabus and the great good fortune of cousins in London has meant that ROH live could work out cheaper than the rather pricey cinema, despite being in the provinces.

So it can be done cheaply, but depends on the child being interested. Honestly, it was cheaper and less of a toll on the family to leave her in her room watching ballet videos than ferrying her to ballet classes! Her enthusiasm for watching may well come from her having a rather meagre diet of classes. 

I love seeing my child watch a live performance. He is mesmerised (and still, which he has a hard time being!) and it makes it very clear how much he loves ballet. Which makes all the sacrifices worth it. I don’t know if my child wasn’t interested I would be willing to do all I do when it comes to his training. 
 

I think there is a link here to the amount of graduates and jobs available. 

[Ruby Foo]

Parents are a slice of society. 
Society in the UK does not lean towards watching Ballet. If it did, then people would be queuing to get into ROH in the same way they do to get into Tottenham football ground and no Graduates would be struggling to get a job. Maybe we should change society? Or Ballet?

Are we saying to parents that to start your child at Ballet Class you must also show an appreciation in this art?  To give him/her support to make a career in this art, you must also accompany him/her to performances? Because if you don't, their chances of getting employment will be less? Because this sounds very dangerous to me for lots of reasons.

1 hour ago, Ballet Saga said:

I love seeing my child watch a live performance. He is mesmerised (and still, which he has a hard time being!) and it makes it very clear how much he loves ballet. Which makes all the sacrifices worth it. I don’t know if my child wasn’t interested I would be willing to do all I do when it comes to his training. 
 

I think there is a link here to the amount of graduates and jobs available. 

 
We are all aware of actors and musicians, tennis players etc who have lived and breathed in that culture since they were tiny. Soaked up every minute detail of their environment through their parents interest/ job or the culture they inhabited.

Then there are those few whose talent is so innate and intrinsic that it doesn't matter that they had no support or background knowledge. They've come to it by surprise. They have only a little knowledge in their craft. These people  will be superstars too and can produce as deeply textured performances as the rest and possibly more unique.

My message  - don't panic if your child  hasn't seen so many performances. Just do what you can.

Edited May 15 by Ruby Foo

[Ballet Saga]

11 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Parents are a slice of society. 
Society in the UK does not lean towards watching Ballet. If it did, then people would be queuing to get into ROH in the same way they do to get into Tottenham football ground and no Graduates would be struggling to get a job. Maybe we should change society? Or Ballet?

Are we saying to parents that to start your child at Ballet Class you must also show an appreciation in this art?  To give her support to make a career in this art, you must also accompany him/her to performances? Because if you don't, their chances of getting employment will be less? Because this sounds very dangerous to me for lots of reasons.

 
We are all aware of actors and musicians, tennis players etc who have lived and breathed in that culture since they were tiny. Soaked up every minute detail of their environment through their parents interest/ job or the culture they inhabited.

Then there are those few whose talent is so innate and intrinsic that it doesn't matter that they had no support or background knowledge. They've come to it by surprise. They have only a little knowledge in their craft. These people  will be superstars too and can produce as deeply textured performances as the rest and possibly more unique.

My message  - don't panic if your child  hasn't seen so many performances. Just do what you can.

I’m sure that’s a rarity. Whatever your talent you still need training and to experience the reality of it. Maybe it’s a bit of a myth what you’re saying? 
 

Who says there is a need to panic? (Can’t people handle someone’s opinion?) I said further up that a couple of live performances a year is surely a good thing. No one is saying go and see ALL the ballets. I also said go and see all dance. If your child isn’t interested in seeing live performances, is this really the route for them? 
 

Plus we moan about the lack of jobs but many seem to think that it’s someone else’s responsibility, rather than us the audience. It’s a responsibility of us all. How can I in good conscience moan about the lack of jobs if I don’t go and see live performances? 
 

And yes if your child takes a SERIOUS interest in ballet you should learn to appreciate the art and support them. Nowhere did I say not seeing live performances will stop you gaining employment, but I would go as far to say as it will hinder your training. Or at the very least you will lose out on something very beneficial.
 

 

Edited May 15 by Ballet Saga

[Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Colman said:

 

 

Do students in other arts succeed without understanding the context of what they're doing, without references to build their performances on beyond academic exercise? Without being able to have a sensible conversation about the corpus of work in their field? How can they even know what they're meant to be aspiring to be? (And that's before you get to adults who are apparently seriously studying a performance art and don't want to perform*, which is another thing I fail to understand.) 

 

(* As opposed to being terrified of performances, which I understand perfectly!)

 

Yes.  I am very familiar with many classical music students in undergraduate (and even graduate) programmes who don't listen to music (sometimes even when they are asked to write about it - they just rehash what other people have written) and refuse to take advantage of cheap or even free tickets to concerts or opera.   They are only interested in what they are doing themselves. 

 

And don't get me started on creative writing students who have barely read any literature (or even popular fiction) but think their own outpourings will be ground breaking.  Very easy to think you are "innovative" if you have never read anyone else.  

[taxi4ballet]

36 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Parents are a slice of society. 
Society in the UK does not lean towards watching Ballet. If it did, then people would be queuing to get into ROH in the same way they do to get into Tottenham football ground and no Graduates would be struggling to get a job. Maybe we should change society? Or Ballet?

Are we saying to parents that to start your child at Ballet Class you must also show an appreciation in this art?  To give him/her support to make a career in this art, you must also accompany him/her to performances? Because if you don't, their chances of getting employment will be less? Because this sounds very dangerous to me for lots of reasons.

 
We are all aware of actors and musicians, tennis players etc who have lived and breathed in that culture since they were tiny. Soaked up every minute detail of their environment through their parents interest/ job or the culture they inhabited.

Then there are those few whose talent is so innate and intrinsic that it doesn't matter that they had no support or background knowledge. They've come to it by surprise. They have only a little knowledge in their craft. These people  will be superstars too and can produce as deeply textured performances as the rest and possibly more unique.

My message  - don't panic if your child  hasn't seen so many performances. Just do what you can.

 This post reminds me of what Billy Elliot's dad says in the film, when asked if he is a fan of the ballet.

 

"I wouldn't exactly say I was an expert".

[Ruby Foo]

25 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

 

Yes.  I am very familiar with many classical music students in undergraduate (and even graduate) programmes who don't listen to music (sometimes even when they are asked to write about it - they just rehash what other people have written) and refuse to take advantage of cheap or even free tickets to concerts or opera.   They are only interested in what they are doing themselves. 

 

And don't get me started on creative writing students who have barely read any literature (or even popular fiction) but think their own outpourings will be ground breaking.  Very easy to think you are "innovative" if you have never read anyone else.  

Well, considering this, there seems to no shortage of new groundbreaking talent around in all areas, literature, music, dance, film, all given the thumbs up by the general public. Maybe students have found new ways to work and be inspired.

[Allwrong]

It wasn't my intention to suggest that parents should foist a ballet education on their dancing children, nor on themselves. My apologies for the misunderstanding. Rather that youtube etc offer rich pickings for those that love to watch it, which I think is a wonderful thing. And that there are some cheaper routes, especially once the child is old enough to go to the theatre alone, which is where we personally are at. It's a joy that DD is so moved by watching ballet (ROH usually involves tears!!). And I sincerely hope that long after she has finished dancing that will still be the case. 

[Colman]

1 hour ago, Ruby Foo said:

Well, considering this, there seems to no shortage of new groundbreaking talent around in all areas, literature, music, dance, film, all given the thumbs up by the general public. Maybe students have found new ways to work and be inspired.

You'd probably need to check which group is producing the "groundbreaking" talent.

[Kate_N]

On 14/05/2024 at 11:09, Doing Dance 1 said:

I am often quite surprised by some views and comments I read on threads such as this. 
 

The dance sector in the UK hugely benefits from international talent and it is a huge compliment that we still (for now) attract such excellence. 
 

When I go to the ROH and watch the Royal Ballet my experience is never diminished by seeing a dancer who doesn’t have a UK passport. 
 

Similarly I am pleased to see that UK dancers hold positions at both prestigious European (again, for now) and international companies. 

 

Totally agree @Doing Dance 1 but some people get a bit upset at being called out for xenophobia ... 

 

I think we should be very proud that this country has such a vibrant dance culture - from the hundreds of thousands of children in school halls and studios all over the UK, to the stars of the Royal Ballet (I sometimes fantasise about what dance historians will say about Ms Nuñez in 200 years' time!) to the local dance cultures of the many ethnicities who choose to call the UK home to the many types of adult classes at studios and gyms across the country to the big clubs and festivals where thousands of people dance with joy & in company to loud music. We should look at this landscape with pleasure & pride - it's truly a community of people united in a love of dance.

[Lifeafterballet]

2 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

 This post reminds me of what Billy Elliot's dad says in the film, when asked if he is a fan of the ballet.

 

"I wouldn't exactly say I was an expert".

Love this 🤣 

I’m certainly not an expert or a huge fan for that matter. Ballet is ok. I have a bit of a love / hate relationship with it. 
I don’t think I will be going to watch ballet after my final child stops dancing. I have enjoyed watching both my children dance but the truth is I prefer a good musical. I’m off to see Les Miserables for the umpteenth time in August. That gives me something that ballet doesn’t. Guess it’s because I don’t know first hand the damage that musical theatre causes but I’m all to experienced with what ballet can do ☹️

[Pas de Quatre]

Sorry Lifeafterballet, I'm afraid the world of musical theatre is just as difficult for students as classical l ballet. Huge cattle call auditions where hundreds of dancers turn up. Very few graduates achieve a performing career. You can say the same too for graduates of the contemporary establishments, hardly any paying performing openings.

[Ruby Foo]

37 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Sorry Lifeafterballet, I'm afraid the world of musical theatre is just as difficult for students as classical l ballet. Huge cattle call auditions where hundreds of dancers turn up. Very few graduates achieve a performing career. You can say the same too for graduates of the contemporary establishments, hardly any paying performing openings.

 
While I appreciate that it's by no means easy to bag a job in musical theatre- as you rightly say, cutthroat competition when it comes to auditions etc, there's quite a few schools in the UK who are doing a magnificent job of seeing their students succeed in MT. I can think of three straight off who have almost 100% success rate with their graduates. This is in complete contrast to the three 'considered' top Ballet Schools in UK who are really struggling to find their graduates jobs. 

[Kate_N]

The difference between MT - and straight theatre for that matter - and ballet jobs is that music theatre & acting jobs are for a specific show, and a fixed term of the run of that show. A contract in a ballet company will generally be for at least a year, and "cast as directed." So there is much more turnover of MT/acting jobs than for ballet company jobs.

Edited May 15 by Kate_N

[Geoff]

I don’t know much about studying to be a plumber and less about ballet schools, but let’s take two comparators I am more familiar with, the acting profession and television. It has always been the case that the UK graduates far more trained young actors than there is available work, hence the glut of “resting” actors in other professions (including plumbing) while they wait for an acting job.

 

And as for “media studies” (the university course that young people who want to work in tv seem to choose) the balance is if anything even more extreme.
 

However the training institutions make money so long as people want to sign on for the course of study, so where is the motivation to limit the number of places offered? 
 

Edited May 15 by Geoff

[Ballet Saga]

29 minutes ago, Geoff said:

I don’t know much about studying to be a plumber and less about ballet schools, but let’s take two comparators I am more familiar with, the acting profession and television. It has always been the case that the UK graduates far more trained young actors than there is available work, hence the glut of “resting” actors in other professions (including plumbing) while they wait for an acting job.

 

And as for “media studies” (the university course that young people who want to work in tv seem to choose) the balance is if anything even more extreme.
 

However the training institutions make money so long as people want to sign on for the course of study, so where is the motivation to limit the number of places offered? 
 

I suppose the difference with ballet is how you have to stay in some form of training while waiting for a job (to keep up fitness and technique). So another motivator to go to a graduate scheme rather than get a regular job and keep auditioning. Yes the schemes won’t turn away paying customers! But they will know that most of the graduates won’t get a job, or not a job that is sustainable without outside help. 

[Out-the-other-side]

I feel this may be a feature of jobs across all of the creative industries in the UK. My eldest non DD was recently interviewed for a script editors job - she was told there had been over 400 applicants for one position! Quite the contrast to the dire shortage of people in the building trades making the headlines this morning! 

[Peanut68]

Back to plumbing being a better option then…!

[Peanut68]

11 hours ago, Kate_N said:

The difference between MT - and straight theatre for that matter - and ballet jobs is that music theatre & acting jobs are for a specific show, and a fixed term of the run of that show. A contract in a ballet company will generally be for at least a year, and "cast as directed." So there is much more turnover of MT/acting jobs than for ballet company jobs.

I think now the vast majority of dance jobs beyond the larger arts council funded companies are also offered more on a contractual ‘per show’ or per season basis. Many dancers even with ‘secure’ sounding jobs will still be employed as ‘freelancers’ thus having less security/benefits than their PAYE listed peers (eg. probably no sick pay/paid annual leave/parental leave etc etc etc). I’d love to be proved wrong on this….

(And has anyone transferred from dancer to plumber? I imagine tap dancers particularly suited….😂 Sorry folks..😉)

[akh]

3 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I think now the vast majority of dance jobs beyond the larger arts council funded companies are also offered more on a contractual ‘per show’ or per season basis. Many dancers even with ‘secure’ sounding jobs will still be employed as ‘freelancers’ thus having less security/benefits than their PAYE listed peers (eg. probably no sick pay/paid annual leave/parental leave etc etc etc). I’d love to be proved wrong on this….

(And has anyone transferred from dancer to plumber? I imagine tap dancers particularly suited….😂 Sorry folks..😉)

Yes one of Ramberts' dancers became a plumber when he retired from dancing some years ago.

[Harwel]

Loving this topic to read!  There is not one right way to be anything - some love to do, some love to watch, some love to do both.  
 

My eldest trained at Tring, loved to watch a live performance, couldn’t tolerate any recorded version.  My youngest training in MT is exactly the same, loves a live performance but won’t touch the reality show competition or recorded versions. They are their own people, they know what they like and what they don’t. 
 

As for dancer into plumber my eldest stopped ballet and is now a project manager for a construction management company (not quite plumber).  My husband and I went to watch Grease the musical on Saturday at our local theatre and one of my sons friends was in the cast - we both looked at each other and said how glad we are that our son moved away from theatre and is in the job he is.  
 

As for my youngest only time will tell - 1 more year of training and then it’s ’show time’!  However, he’s already training  part time to be a hearing aid audiologist like his dad as a back up/fill in job.  
 

A comparison of the training between ballet and MT - MT much less brutal than ballet.  Still stupid numbers of students to jobs but the training is kinder in our experience. 

[taxi4ballet]

18 hours ago, Geoff said:

I don’t know much about studying to be a plumber and less about ballet schools, but let’s take two comparators I am more familiar with, the acting profession and television. It has always been the case that the UK graduates far more trained young actors than there is available work, hence the glut of “resting” actors in other professions (including plumbing) while they wait for an acting job.

 

And as for “media studies” (the university course that young people who want to work in tv seem to choose) the balance is if anything even more extreme.
 

However the training institutions make money so long as people want to sign on for the course of study, so where is the motivation to limit the number of places offered? 
 

A list to which I would also add 'Sports Science'.

[taxi4ballet]

23 hours ago, Allwrong said:

It wasn't my intention to suggest that parents should foist a ballet education on their dancing children, nor on themselves. My apologies for the misunderstanding. Rather that youtube etc offer rich pickings for those that love to watch it, which I think is a wonderful thing. And that there are some cheaper routes, especially once the child is old enough to go to the theatre alone, which is where we personally are at. It's a joy that DD is so moved by watching ballet (ROH usually involves tears!!). And I sincerely hope that long after she has finished dancing that will still be the case. 

In our case it is now DD who buys the tickets to the ROH, and takes me along with her! 

[Peanut68]

2 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

A list to which I would also add 'Sports Science'.

Do you mean loads train or study ‘sports science’ without there being enough actual jobs then on graduation? Must say, does seem to be an ever popular route I hear from GCSE & beyond….. 

[Peanut68]

2 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

In our case it is now DD who buys the tickets to the ROH, and takes me along with her! 

I can but dream of the day….!

[Kate_N]

12 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I think now the vast majority of dance jobs beyond the larger arts council funded companies are also offered more on a contractual ‘per show’ or per season basis.

 

Most of the thread has been - implicitly or explicitly - about the 'big name' companies across the world to which 16 year olds at élite schools aspire. ENB, RB, ABT, NYCB, Paris Opera most German Stadttheater ballet companies & so on & etc - offer at least annual contracts.

[Peanut68]

That could well be true Kate_N for those companies but I do believe many other  ‘big name’ ‘Mainstream’ companies around the world also offer relatively short term contracts - that dancers have to re-apply or be offered a contract renewal.  Would hope there is ‘continuation of service’ & the usual benefits & protections that come with that. 
Many USA companies I understand only operate on a 10 month season & contracts are for 10 months - dancers not being paid for those other 2 months of the year. You often see pro dancers from US based companies attending top Summer Intensive courses that are held during the 2 months they are ‘resting’ and they have to self fund these (unless offered scholarships/sponsorship).

Im pretty sure New Adventures also offers contracts based on individual shows too. So again, no guaranteed job continuation. 
I’m very happy to be corrected 

 

[Jan McNulty]

There's an awful lot of speculation about how companies operate appearing on this thread.

 

Could people please avoid sweeping generalisations and speculation.  If there is evidence to support some of these speculations please provide it.

[taxi4ballet]

5 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Do you mean loads train or study ‘sports science’ without there being enough actual jobs then on graduation? Must say, does seem to be an ever popular route I hear from GCSE & beyond….. 

It seems that way, yes.  Not entirely sure how many jobs there can possibly be in that field (excuse the pun).

[Lifeafterballet]

7 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

It seems that way, yes.  Not entirely sure how many jobs there can possibly be in that field (excuse the pun).

 

My daughter is just about to graduate from University with a BSc in Sport Rehabilitation. Bit more specific than Sports Science. You would be surprised how many jobs there are in this field with sports team, pitch side, private clinics and gyms, the military and the NHS including cardiac and stroke rehabilitation.
More than in the ballet world 🤣Anything really that requires muscular skeletal injury assessment, management and rehabilitation. It’s physiotherapy without detailed respiratory and neuro, although that is covered too. She also has qualifications and experience in Sports Massage, taping and Acupuncture 
RB are advising at the moment for a Strength and Conditioning coach. My daughter’s qualification and ballet knowledge is suitable for this position. They want at least 2 years post graduation experience that she doesn’t possess yet. These sport BSc qualifications can lead to an MSc in more specific and specialised areas.
Her placements included working with a leading U.K. Ballet Company and Ballet School. Arranged by herself with the intention of progressing into that field. But after 8 years of the ballet world she has decided to branch out and get more varied experiences. She may return in the future as she is passionate about injury prevention and management within dance. But for now she is just excited to try new experiences.

There is life after ballet ☺️ and a happy and well paid one 😅

[Emeralds]

On 15/05/2024 at 13:26, Ballet Saga said:

Everyone could do more. Schools, parents.

School trips or group trips (rather like playdates or birthday trips with a small group of friends in lieu of a party) may be more cost effective than one parent taking one child to see a live performance. The parents of the invited children are generally pleased to for their child's ticket in lieu of buying a birthday gift. Many theatres will offer discounts to under 16s (some may stipulate a maximum of 2 or 4 child tickets per every adult ticket but that still works out cheaper than every child being accompanied by a parent).

 

Outings with grandparents/godparents may also be another opportunity for ballet student offspring to attend live performances. 

 

When your ballet student offspring turns 16, I recommend signing them up for schemes like Sadler's Wells' Dance Pass  which really helps- eg SWDP is very good because both the teen AND a parent/friend/adult can get a DP ticket for £10 each - while stocks last though. It's only discounted for one performance per production, ie you cannot use it to see BRB in 3 shows of Sleeping Beauty, for example. But you can see 3 different dance companies in 1 month at £10 each for the teen and parent going together). 

[Ballet Saga]

2 hours ago, Emeralds said:

School trips or group trips (rather like playdates or birthday trips with a small group of friends in lieu of a party) may be more cost effective than one parent taking one child to see a live performance. The parents of the invited children are generally pleased to for their child's ticket in lieu of buying a birthday gift. Many theatres will offer discounts to under 16s (some may stipulate a maximum of 2 or 4 child tickets per every adult ticket but that still works out cheaper than every child being accompanied by a parent).

 

Outings with grandparents/godparents may also be another opportunity for ballet student offspring to attend live performances. 

 

When your ballet student offspring turns 16, I recommend signing them up for schemes like Sadler's Wells' Dance Pass  which really helps- eg SWDP is very good because both the teen AND a parent/friend/adult can get a DP ticket for £10 each - while stocks last though. It's only discounted for one performance per production, ie you cannot use it to see BRB in 3 shows of Sleeping Beauty, for example. But you can see 3 different dance companies in 1 month at £10 each for the teen and parent going together). 

That’s a good idea