company auditions, why so few places...?

[Peanut68]

Good points Emeralds - esp. the comparison with music & dance students. Yes, generally all students quite likely learn in a group a few variations/solos but there is too often the ‘chosen one’ (or a very few) who then get extra individual coaching & chosen by a school for comps. Otherwise it’s individuals having to source & pay for the extra one to one coaching they need & deserve to compete. 
All worthy to suggest costumes can be cheaply sourced… true…. But I’m the most part seeing things on YouTube etc all looks pretty dazzle dazzle & £££ to me…& I can quite likely see dancers feeling less confident if they find they are not so professionally attired as the majority…. This similar comparison happens over photos/showreels with some clearly able to afford more of this than others. Sure, you perhaps only need those few hood shots but again, when it’s a quick look over, you need to look your best & that’s likely going to be achieved by high cost pro shots. And also applications often state photos/video must be less than 6 months old so this required regular updating. The more money you can sling at this the ‘easier’ that element is. And whilst these things do not necessarily make fir a better dancer, I’d hazard a guess it certainly aids confidence for sending out those applications. 
This is where I do think a pure open call is in some ways preferable but then only if there truly are jobs to be offered at the end of the process….

I suspect - just as in the rest of employment world - all jobs must be seen to be advertised & active recruitment put in place even when there is already an in house candidate could be promoted or a desired candidate that can be headhunted. This is pretty much employment law isn’t it? 
But I do think that the process should stop at written applications/photos/videos/

online interviews if no actual dance jobs will ever be offered. Sure, dancers may do anything to get a chance just to be seen & have that chance to show what they can do to maybe be remembered for a future job….but it has to be transparent to make a cost ratio benefit analysis before spending money/time to attend! All IMHO

For the record, have no personal experience of any overseas comps myself or as a parent but know of experiences of others. Very mixed reports as to the cost v benefit of these….and it requires an awful lot of input/support from either teachers or parents or both. Not every dancer is fortunate to have this backing them sadly. 

[Ruby Foo]

2 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Good points Emeralds - esp. the comparison with music & dance students. Yes, generally all students quite likely learn in a group a few variations/solos but there is too often the ‘chosen one’ (or a very few) who then get extra individual coaching & chosen by a school for comps. Otherwise it’s individuals having to source & pay for the extra one to one coaching they need & deserve to compete. 
All worthy to suggest costumes can be cheaply sourced… true…. But I’m the most part seeing things on YouTube etc all looks pretty dazzle dazzle & £££ to me…& I can quite likely see dancers feeling less confident if they find they are not so professionally attired as the majority…. This similar comparison happens over photos/showreels with some clearly able to afford more of this than others. Sure, you perhaps only need those few hood shots but again, when it’s a quick look over, you need to look your best & that’s likely going to be achieved by high cost pro shots. And also applications often state photos/video must be less than 6 months old so this required regular updating. The more money you can sling at this the ‘easier’ that element is. And whilst these things do not necessarily make fir a better dancer, I’d hazard a guess it certainly aids confidence for sending out those applications. 
This is where I do think a pure open call is in some ways preferable but then only if there truly are jobs to be offered at the end of the process….

I suspect - just as in the rest of employment world - all jobs must be seen to be advertised & active recruitment put in place even when there is already an in house candidate could be promoted or a desired candidate that can be headhunted. This is pretty much employment law isn’t it? 
But I do think that the process should stop at written applications/photos/videos/

online interviews if no actual dance jobs will ever be offered. Sure, dancers may do anything to get a chance just to be seen & have that chance to show what they can do to maybe be remembered for a future job….but it has to be transparent to make a cost ratio benefit analysis before spending money/time to attend! All IMHO

For the record, have no personal experience of any overseas comps myself or as a parent but know of experiences of others. Very mixed reports as to the cost v benefit of these….and it requires an awful lot of input/support from either teachers or parents or both. Not every dancer is fortunate to have this backing them sadly. 

Absolutely true, Peanut!

The variations ( 2 learnt) were taught as a group. The time was then divided between them all to see them individually. They ‘ran’ them one after the other in a big rush to get through them all after class and there was absolutely no corrections or individual help whatsoever. 

After my daughter left vocational, she worked properly on the variations with a couple of teachers and the difference was insane.

[Sadielou]

At the risk of being shouted down I thought I would share a few of my insights, thoughts on the current work / audition situation for our young dancers.

 

As some have mentioned previously there are now far too many schools, just counted 12 in the UK, (and they are just the well know ones), and far too few jobs to accommodate the amount of Graduates filing out of them every year. The ratios involved are never going to add up. So why oh why are “Dancers” on the Gov UK jobs available list ???  Another petition needed I think.

 

Due to the lack of jobs, many vocational colleges have ramped up their training to include an extra Graduate year, and now another new trend has emerged the “Trainee course” and my personal hate “The Junior Company” These courses are only serving to prolong the fate of dancers that are unable to find viable jobs. Yes I hear you scream, but isn’t it better that students are keeping in shape, doing class and gaining valuable experience. No, in my humble opinion it is fleecing parents of money and prolonging the inevitable.

 

Many European Companies have a glut of older dancers, dancers that are entrenched until retirement (who can blame them) so there are very few new contracts up for grabs. Employing new dancers on full time contracts, runs the risk (after two years employment) of having that dancer fill that spot till the bitter end. So Companies having got wise to this have invented “The Junior Company” or “Trainees" to fill their empty Corps spots. Because on these Junior contracts, young dancers can easily be replaced yearly, with no worry of having them wait out their time till retirement. New blood every year for the company for way less money, win win. Having had a Son working for a European Junior Company. I know first hand, that these kids get paid less (some not at all) Yet do the same amount of work and in most cases more than the full time Corps Company members.

 

My other Son after graduation had a “Trainee” contract in a different European Co. He was paid 500 Euros a month, which didn’t even cover his rent. The contract stated that the trainees would be training alongside the full time company dancers and helped into work at the end of the contract. Of course this didn’t happen. On day one the Director gave an introductory speech, his first statement being that  ‘There will be no contracts at the end of this season” A very depressing reality on your first day. There was no “Training” per se and all trainees were thrown into all performances alongside the full company members, even, as in my Sons case doing featured roles. At the end of the contract, there was, as promised no contracts and no help with auditioning elsewhere. Not even a thank you for all your hard work. All that was offered was another trainee year. We nearly capitulated and signed a second contract, but in the end had to come to the sensible decision, that it was simply unaffordable, and delaying the inevitable. We found out later that the Government paid this Company 3000 Euros per month for each trainee of which there were 6. As the trainees themselves only received 500 per month.this meant that  15000 euros monthly went into the company coffers curtsy of these young dancers. What a rip off !

 

I thought that since my dancing days things would have improved, but actually think they have got much worse. At least in my day students were paid to perform with the major companies. I am fed up with hearing of young dancers being expected to work as extras for little or no payment, propping up the major companies who couldn't do the classics without them.

 

Year after year ENB use young dancers as extra’s. ENB have pared down their contracted dancers to such a degree that they simply cannot do any of their classics without an influx of extras. These dancers are treated like second class citizens, not given company dressing rooms, (literally put in a bathroom) unable to use the company Gym or Physio suite and on top of that ENB has the audacity to pay them £100  a week less than the corps company members who are doing the same and in some cases less work. But year after year ENB know dancers will apply as extra’s hoping to gain that illusive full contract. A contract that never materialises as more often than not the Director has already employed a dancer scouted from one or other of the big competitions, or, as I see this year already, a Canadian, Dutch trained dancer scouted at the Grands Audition. Why don't they take from their feeder school, or from the many extra's who already know their productions. These students / extras must be good enough as they are already performing for paying audiences under the ENB banner. RB & BRB are even worse as they don't even bother to pay their students. Once again poor parents, are unwittingly subsidising these productions, by providing a free workforce and on top of that paying outrageous ticket prices, to see their kids on stage. Please remember parents that the Directors of these companies are all being paid extremely well and that none of these big productions could be staged without this poorly paid /free work force. I think this is a scandal that badly needs addressing.

 

In the UK we have all been lead to believe that training at a well known and respected vocational school is the way to launch our children on the job ladder. However from all the replies, & comments on this thread this is obviously not the case. As Parents we are now expected, to finance private coaching, extra graduate /trainee years, professional photo’s, videos, competition fees / audition fees (Grands audition, YAGP Job fair, and several small companies charge a fee)  costumes, travel and accommodation. Along with subsidising the big companies by providing living & travel expenses for a child working for free or very little. An impossibility for many families. Ballet has sadly once again become a career only the well off can afford. If your child is not at a top feeder school and one of the very few on the fast track to the adjoined company. It seems that private tuition and the chance to perform on the competition circuit is the only way to bag a good contract. I can think of several boys and girls that are now in top jobs whom on paper do not conform to the stipulations on their current companies audition notices. I am not saying that these kids do not deserve their contracts just that if they hadn’t had the opportunity and finances to perform on the competition circuit, they may not have even have been invited to an in person audition. The cost of competitions has already been discussed on this thread. There was an article in Pointe magazine totting up the costs, See link https://pointemagazine.com/ballet-competitions-101/  This article was written in 2018, so imagine the costs now, eye watering !

 

Although we as a family are very lucky to have both kids working, the pain and angst involved on the audition circuit has at times been over whelming. What is the answer, is there one ? What can we as parents do to change this toxic audition / work culture ? As parents we all want our kids to achieve their dreams, but sometimes to quote the old cliche you have to be cruel to be kind, and know when enough is enough. Sadly in most cases it turns out the rewards at the end of the Ballet Rainbow are way too few to counteract the, hard work, expense and inevitable disappointments. Would I do it all again ?  On reflection, honestly no. 

[glowlight]

7 minutes ago, Sadielou said:

you have to be cruel to be kind, and know when enough is enough.

 

I think this is very true. And sometimes our dc's know in their heart of hearts that enough is enough, but don't want to let us down. 

 

My dd was very clear that she wanted paid work after graduating, and wouldn't go to auditions which offered jobs for 'exposure' or 'experience'. Maybe this is one reason why she didn't end up with a ballet contract, but she did work as a professional dancer, being paid a reasonable wage, for over 5 years before deciding herself that she'd had enough.

 

I really wish all of these youngsters the best, but I would encourage parents to understand that you don't have to keep pumping money into it. If it isn't happening after graduation from a good ballet school, maybe it isn't meant to be. It's not the end of the world. Life goes on and sometimes they need us to give them permission to let go.

 

 

[batmanballetshoes]

16 minutes ago, Sadielou said:

At the risk of being shouted down I thought I would share a few of my insights, thoughts on the current work / audition situation for our young dancers.

 

As some have mentioned previously there are now far too many schools, just counted 12 in the UK, (and they are just the well know ones), and far too few jobs to accommodate the amount of Graduates filing out of them every year. The ratios involved are never going to add up. So why oh why are “Dancers” on the Gov UK jobs available list ???  Another petition needed I think.

 

Due to the lack of jobs, many vocational colleges have ramped up their training to include an extra Graduate year, and now another new trend has emerged the “Trainee course” and my personal hate “The Junior Company” These courses are only serving to prolong the fate of dancers that are unable to find viable jobs. Yes I hear you scream, but isn’t it better that students are keeping in shape, doing class and gaining valuable experience. No, in my humble opinion it is fleecing parents of money and prolonging the inevitable.

 

Many European Companies have a glut of older dancers, dancers that are entrenched until retirement (who can blame them) so there are very few new contracts up for grabs. Employing new dancers on full time contracts, runs the risk (after two years employment) of having that dancer fill that spot till the bitter end. So Companies having got wise to this have invented “The Junior Company” or “Trainees" to fill their empty Corps spots. Because on these Junior contracts, young dancers can easily be replaced yearly, with no worry of having them wait out their time till retirement. New blood every year for the company for way less money, win win. Having had a Son working for a European Junior Company. I know first hand, that these kids get paid less (some not at all) Yet do the same amount of work and in most cases more than the full time Corps Company members.

 

My other Son after graduation had a “Trainee” contract in a different European Co. He was paid 500 Euros a month, which didn’t even cover his rent. The contract stated that the trainees would be training alongside the full time company dancers and helped into work at the end of the contract. Of course this didn’t happen. On day one the Director gave an introductory speech, his first statement being that  ‘There will be no contracts at the end of this season” A very depressing reality on your first day. There was no “Training” per se and all trainees were thrown into all performances alongside the full company members, even, as in my Sons case doing featured roles. At the end of the contract, there was, as promised no contracts and no help with auditioning elsewhere. Not even a thank you for all your hard work. All that was offered was another trainee year. We nearly capitulated and signed a second contract, but in the end had to come to the sensible decision, that it was simply unaffordable, and delaying the inevitable. We found out later that the Government paid this Company 3000 Euros per month for each trainee of which there were 6. As the trainees themselves only received 500 per month.this meant that  15000 euros monthly went into the company coffers curtsy of these young dancers. What a rip off !

 

I thought that since my dancing days things would have improved, but actually think they have got much worse. At least in my day students were paid to perform with the major companies. I am fed up with hearing of young dancers being expected to work as extras for little or no payment, propping up the major companies who couldn't do the classics without them.

 

Year after year ENB use young dancers as extra’s. ENB have pared down their contracted dancers to such a degree that they simply cannot do any of their classics without an influx of extras. These dancers are treated like second class citizens, not given company dressing rooms, (literally put in a bathroom) unable to use the company Gym or Physio suite and on top of that ENB has the audacity to pay them £100  a week less than the corps company members who are doing the same and in some cases less work. But year after year ENB know dancers will apply as extra’s hoping to gain that illusive full contract. A contract that never materialises as more often than not the Director has already employed a dancer scouted from one or other of the big competitions, or, as I see this year already, a Canadian, Dutch trained dancer scouted at the Grands Audition. Why don't they take from their feeder school, or from the many extra's who already know their productions. These students / extras must be good enough as they are already performing for paying audiences under the ENB banner. RB & BRB are even worse as they don't even bother to pay their students. Once again poor parents, are unwittingly subsidising these productions, by providing a free workforce and on top of that paying outrageous ticket prices, to see their kids on stage. Please remember parents that the Directors of these companies are all being paid extremely well and that none of these big productions could be staged without this poorly paid /free work force. I think this is a scandal that badly needs addressing.

 

In the UK we have all been lead to believe that training at a well known and respected vocational school is the way to launch our children on the job ladder. However from all the replies, & comments on this thread this is obviously not the case. As Parents we are now expected, to finance private coaching, extra graduate /trainee years, professional photo’s, videos, competition fees / audition fees (Grands audition, YAGP Job fair, and several small companies charge a fee)  costumes, travel and accommodation. Along with subsidising the big companies by providing living & travel expenses for a child working for free or very little. An impossibility for many families. Ballet has sadly once again become a career only the well off can afford. If your child is not at a top feeder school and one of the very few on the fast track to the adjoined company. It seems that private tuition and the chance to perform on the competition circuit is the only way to bag a good contract. I can think of several boys and girls that are now in top jobs whom on paper do not conform to the stipulations on their current companies audition notices. I am not saying that these kids do not deserve their contracts just that if they hadn’t had the opportunity and finances to perform on the competition circuit, they may not have even have been invited to an in person audition. The cost of competitions has already been discussed on this thread. There was an article in Pointe magazine totting up the costs, See link https://pointemagazine.com/ballet-competitions-101/  This article was written in 2018, so imagine the costs now, eye watering !

 

Although we as a family are very lucky to have both kids working, the pain and angst involved on the audition circuit has at times been over whelming. What is the answer, is there one ? What can we as parents do to change this toxic audition / work culture ? As parents we all want our kids to achieve their dreams, but sometimes to quote the old cliche you have to be cruel to be kind, and know when enough is enough. Sadly in most cases it turns out the rewards at the end of the Ballet Rainbow are way too few to counteract the, hard work, expense and inevitable disappointments. Would I do it all again ?  On reflection, honestly no. 

Thank you for being so transparent and blunt.  This is my experience exactly. 

[batmanballetshoes]

& while we're on it paying to go to an audition when you don't even know the terms of the contract.... unheard of in any other profession - cant imagine paying to go to an interview and not knowing the salary! 

[Sadielou]

9 minutes ago, batmanballetshoes said:

& while we're on it paying to go to an audition when you don't even know the terms of the contract.... unheard of in any other profession - cant imagine paying to go to an interview and not knowing the salary! 

Good point forget that one !

[Roberta]

53 minutes ago, Sadielou said:

As some have mentioned previously there are now far too many schools, just counted 12 in the UK, (and they are just the well know ones

 

Not only vocational schools, look at how what basically began as examining bodies to improve dance training like the RAD have expanded, grand new premises, promotion, all part of the bigger and bigger ballet and dance business, exams expand into yet more exams, the RAD is now including contemporary work, teacher training programmes expand and those teachers all need work too. Former dancers train to teach. The dance jobs market grows! Apart from for the end product of all this. 

 

Then there are the access schemes, of course bigger and better local dance schools, the Associates etc. Weekend courses, what used to be summer schools of a week are now expanding into 'intensives' every school holiday week.  Competitions & festivals have always been around but are expanding and changing focus. A massive pyramid really, with a handful of young dancers each year surviving and thriving, the rest? 

 

Problem is that kids get the bug and talented ones want to dance professionally. Childhoods are sacrificed, family life revolves round the dancer, and yes the financial cost! It isn't a matter either I feel of the really great will survive, the rest tough luck,  I'm sure many young people, given the chance, would develop in a company into assets, but it's a lottery.  Too many talented, highly trained dancers from many countries and it's worth repeating... not enough jobs.  

 

And the government has decided to cut funding for creative / performance degrees at 18 plus,  which was a route into an arts related career for a number of people.

 

The excited posts daily here from proud parents whose children are just beginning the 'journey', the dream, how can you tell them the reality of the situation?   Of course some will succeed, it's one helluva gamble though.

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

14 minutes ago, Roberta said:

 

 

Then there are the access schemes, of course bigger and better local dance schools, the Associates etc. Weekend courses, what used to be summer schools of a week are now expanding into 'intensives' every school holiday week.  Competitions & festivals have always been around but are expanding and changing focus. A massive pyramid really, with a handful of young dancers each year surviving and thriving, the rest? 

 

Problem is that kids get the bug and talented ones want to dance professionally. Childhoods are sacrificed, family life revolves round the dancer, and yes the financial cost! It isn't a matter either I feel of the really great will survive, the rest tough luck,  I'm sure many young people, given the chance, would develop in a company into assets, but it's a lottery.  Too many talented, highly trained dancers from many countries and it's worth repeating... not enough jobs.  

 

 

I agree with this 100% and it really is the reality now. I know some would disagree but my DD is at that age range where for the last 4 or so years we have witnessed first hand how crazy it has become. She’s a relative latecomer to dance so perhaps this was already happening before then but we were gobsmacked at how much time and money people are willing to spend for “their child’s” dream. The money and time involved is, quite literally, mind boggling. My DD has peers who spend 5-6 weeks of summer breaks hopping from intensive to intensive, local and overseas. Talks of who is having privates with which famous ballerina/teacher/coach and for how many hours a week and where. We are talking easily £200-500 a week on training alone if you factor in privates, classes, associates, physios/PBT, competitions, travel. This doesn’t include intensives and masterclasses. Im not generalising but this happens with a good number of young dancers these days. Travelling to multiple overseas competitions. Who’s doing the most hours of training a week. Whose parents drive the longest to and from classes. Who’s doing which associates schemes. I’ve seen children who don’t seem to have rest days, who don’t get home until late in the evenings, who sideline schooling all to chase the ballet dream. I am actually pleased we witnessed this firsthand quite early on as it was a massive reality check for my DD. Thankfully, my DH (also from a non-dancing background) was very quick to put his foot down early on and insisted that we need to be realistic and he would like to see his daughter during the weekends and evenings after school, especially in these crucial formative years - they are only young once and we can never get this time back. This is also part of the reason why as a family, we never considered boarding at 11 for my DD. A very personal choice for us, and one most will probably disagree with, but we didn’t think any childhood dream was worth us missing part of our DD’s daily life for a set number of years. At the end of the day, is it really worth it? Good luck to those DCs and families who are willing to go through this difficult (and expensive) journey - perhaps in the end it will be very rewarding.

[Kate_N]

On 08/04/2024 at 03:31, Jan McNulty said:

There is always going to be a mismatch of the number of vacancies with the number of candidates world wide.  In the current financial situation world wide I would imagine that the disparity of candidates vs vacancies will be greater than usual.

 

Very true. And there are more schools producing more artists (of all media & genres). Many populations don't like paying taxes to subsidise the arts, and ballet companies are expensive to run. 

 

But it's always been like this. There never was a time when all graduates from ballet schools went straight into companies. Never. I could point you to historical documents going back almost 200 years of aspiring actors complaining about the profession being closed to them.

 

I don't know why people are surprised about this!

[Roberta]

3 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

There never was a time when all graduates from ballet schools went straight into companies.

 

No, but I do think the 'big business' of training and mega money spending aspect has altered the situation. This is not as it used to be. 

[Kate_N]

On 09/04/2024 at 08:14, Sadielou said:

Only 3 of 14 dancers are British.

But maybe they live in London?

 

Ballet has ALWAYS been international. The introduction of concert dance onto the British stage was by French, Italian & German dancers! The US site which was Ballet Talk for Dancers & is now Ballet Pursuit, has regular postings complaining that US companies are full of non-US dancers. 

 

It can get perilously close to a kind of xenophobia or crude nationalism which is unproductive. 

 

But thinking about the numbers of young talented people in training - maybe this is a good thing? It signifies that there is enough wealth (even modest incomes) to support such training, and the belief that it is worthwhile? In past times, a lot of talented young people would never have started dance, so we can see this as an index of generally increased affluence, and commitment to the arts? (trying to be Pollyanna here & seeing the positives!)

Edited April 11 by Kate_N

[Roberta]

1 minute ago, Kate_N said:

Ballet has ALWAYS been international.

 

This is absolutely the case.  The Royal Ballet was begun by an Irishwoman. 

[Ruby Foo]

35 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

Very true. And there are more schools producing more artists (of all media & genres). Many populations don't like paying taxes to subsidise the arts, and ballet companies are expensive to run. 

 

But it's always been like this. There never was a time when all graduates from ballet schools went straight into companies. Never. I could point you to historical documents going back almost 200 years of aspiring actors complaining about the profession being closed to them.

 

I don't know why people are surprised about this!

I think this year, in particular, seems harsher than any previous. I have noticed that in 3 top schools in Europe and UK, who are producing gorgeous dancers, there are far less gaining contracts than in previous years. There’s the global economic crisis of course that’s having a huge impact but now we have the impact of social media too which is making the situation far worse than it ever was in my day. We have everyone from parents, teachers, students, ‘Big Business ‘ feeding into or feeding off the frenzy of social media and creating an environment which is not helpful. It creates a worldwide false impression that with this teacher, this school, this summer school, this leotard, this photographer,

this amount of money -I will get a contract. This is the difference between then and now.

Edited April 11 by Ruby Foo

[Kate_N]

And also 

25 minutes ago, Roberta said:

 

No, but I do think the 'big business' of training and mega money spending aspect has altered the situation. This is not as it used to be. 

 

But the demand is driving it? That is, parents & children who want the training and are prepared to pay for it? No-one is press-ganged into ballet school! 

 

I read plenty of posts on these kinds of messageboards where parents/dancers-in-training are agonising over not being selected for Associate programmes or vocational schools. So who's driving the "big business" model?

[Neverdancedjustamum]

1 minute ago, Kate_N said:

And also 

 

But the demand is driving it? That is, parents & children who want the training and are prepared to pay for it? No-one is press-ganged into ballet school! 

 

I read plenty of posts on these kinds of messageboards where parents/dancers-in-training are agonising over not being selected for Associate programmes or vocational schools. So who's driving the "big business" model?

Good point! That’s why the number associates / vocational / pre-vocational programmes have just boomed in the last few years. Look at some of the most popular posts on this forum - it’s always when associates auditions or intensive application results come out. Why the cost of hourly privates continue to go up, with some teachers charging upwards of £100/hour. There are many who are willing to pay massive amounts for all these. 

[Roberta]

15 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

We have everyone from parents, teachers, students, ‘Big Business ‘ feeding into or feeding off the frenzy of social media and creating an environment which is not helpful. It creates a worldwide false impression that with this teacher, this school, this summer school, this leotard, this photographer,

this amount of money -I will get a contract. This is the difference between then and now.

 

Yes.  That exactly. 

 

Add also the fact there are now many beautiful and beautifully trained dancers from the 'Far East' seeking jobs which didn't used to be the case.  Again, more dancers for scarce jobs.

 

Dancers are dancing longer.  Injuries can be healed where in the past they were career ending. Many women would dance for a few years then marry and leave to have children and not return, so many reasons why there is less 'turnover' really. 

[Sadielou]

1 hour ago, Kate_N said:

But maybe they live in London?

 

Ballet has ALWAYS been international. The introduction of concert dance onto the British stage was by French, Italian & German dancers! The US site which was Ballet Talk for Dancers & is now Ballet Pursuit, has regular postings complaining that US companies are full of non-US dancers. 

 

It can get perilously close to a kind of xenophobia or crude nationalism which is unproductive. 

 

But thinking about the numbers of young talented people in training - maybe this is a good thing? It signifies that there is enough wealth (even modest incomes) to support such training, and the belief that it is worthwhile? In past times, a lot of talented young people would never have started dance, so we can see this as an index of generally increased affluence, and commitment to the arts? (trying to be Pollyanna here & seeing the positives!)

The point was that of the 14 RBS students gaining postings abroad. Most of those going to EU companies held EU passports and those gaining contracts in the USA were already American passport holders. No visas needed. More and more EU companies are stipulating only EU passport holders, the same in the states. Perhaps it is these companies that are xenophobic ?

[Roberta]

5 minutes ago, Sadielou said:

No visas needed

 

 UK passport holders no longer have the automatic right to work, live and travel in EU countries. (EU passport holders don't have the same rights here any longer either.) 

 

Companies take the easy option. 

 

US does employ UK dancers, Sarasota Ballet does, though it's probably far more difficult and expensive to travel for auditions and relocate from the UK to the US. 

[Birdy]

6 hours ago, Sadielou said:

The point was that of the 14 RBS students gaining postings abroad. Most of those going to EU companies held EU passports and those gaining contracts in the USA were already American passport holders. No visas needed. More and more EU companies are stipulating only EU passport holders, the same in the states. Perhaps it is these companies that are xenophobic ?

I don’t believe that any of last year’s RBS graduates who got contracts in the USA held US passports. 2 were from Australia, 1 was from Japan, 1 was from Spain, 1 was from the UK, and 1 was from Korea. I can’t think of a single big ballet company in the United States that doesn’t have international dancers. My (American) DD was fortunate to be offered a junior company contract with a European company that she believes is a better fit for her than any company in the US.

[Lifeafterballet]

8 hours ago, Roberta said:

 

 UK passport holders no longer have the automatic right to work, live and travel in EU countries. (EU passport holders don't have the same rights here any longer either.) 

 

Companies take the easy option. 

 

US does employ UK dancers, Sarasota Ballet does, though it's probably far more difficult and expensive to travel for auditions and relocate from the UK to the US. 

And the visa they apply for only lasts from August to May, and then you have to leave the country. Also, for the Studio Company, they don’t pay for the week’s break over Christmas or the 3 month summer break between seasons. ££££

Whereas, my sons EU company pay all year round and the residency permit was very easy to obtain ☺️

Edited April 12 by Lifeafterballet

[Birdy]

Full year contracts are another reason my DD wanted to be in Europe instead of the U.S.  

[batmanballetshoes]

3 hours ago, Birdy said:

I don’t believe that any of last year’s RBS graduates who got contracts in the USA held US passports. 2 were from Australia, 1 was from Japan, 1 was from Spain, 1 was from the UK, and 1 was from Korea. I can’t think of a single big ballet company in the United States that doesn’t have international dancers. My (American) DD was fortunate to be offered a junior company contract with a European company that she believes is a better fit for her than any company in the US.

Technically if you get a place on a US studio company that is not a "job" it is not paid and is further training and classed as education so the international passport holder is granted a student F1 visa which allows them to remain in the country for the length of the course. Different to the right to work.  Although yes there are plenty of internationals in US companies rare to be a graduate.  

[Lifeafterballet]

17 minutes ago, batmanballetshoes said:

Technically if you get a place on a US studio company that is not a "job" it is not paid and is further training and classed as education so the international passport holder is granted a student F1 visa which allows them to remain in the country for the length of the course. Different to the right to work.  Although yes there are plenty of internationals in US companies rare to be a graduate.  

Sarasota Ballet pay their Studio Company dancers $1,000 per month. 2019-2020. 

Just about survivable on if you are in a shared apartment and budget well.

But of course there’s the cost of the flight, deposit and health insurance to consider. The company paid for the visa petition too. I recall that it wasn’t a student one as the Studio Company and main company international dancers were all on the same petition. 
 

[Roberta]

Perhaps here is the place to mention GradPRO, a newish initiative to help showcase UK trained dancers & help them find work. 

 

https://www.gradpro.co.uk/  

 

https://www.tlbc.org.uk/articles/gradpro-2024

 

https://www.tlbc.org.uk/resources/julie-bowers-in-conversation

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[batmanballetshoes]

27 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

Sarasota Ballet pay their Studio Company dancers $1,000 per month. 2019-2020. 

Just about survivable on if you are in a shared apartment and budget well.

But of course there’s the cost of the flight, deposit and health insurance to consider. The company paid for the visa petition too. I recall that it wasn’t a student one as the Studio Company and main company international dancers were all on the same petition. 
 

Nice! That’s actually very generous! Let’s all head to Sarasota!!!  Yes all different just from our personal experience with various studio companies it’s a student vocational  visa and limited pay and no performance certainly no job guarantee.  Thanks for the heads up! 

[Kate_N]

15 hours ago, Sadielou said:

More and more EU companies are stipulating only EU passport holders, the same in the states. Perhaps it is these companies that are xenophobic ?

 

Or we are seeing the consequences of the 2016 referendum ... 

 

But I don't quite understand your argument  @Sadielou  I have read many posts on this messageboard wondering why the ENB and the RBS - as the UK's national companies - employ so many "not British" dancers (a polite way of saying foreigners? not "us"?) 

 

So are you saying it's OK for UK companies to give preference to UK dancers, but that other nations are xenophobic for wanting to do the same? Isn't this a bit of a double standard?

[Sadielou]

2 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

Or we are seeing the consequences of the 2016 referendum ... 

 

But I don't quite understand your argument  @Sadielou  I have read many posts on this messageboard wondering why the ENB and the RBS - as the UK's national companies - employ so many "not British" dancers (a polite way of saying foreigners? not "us"?) 

 

So are you saying it's OK for UK companies to give preference to UK dancers, but that other nations are xenophobic for wanting to do the same? Isn't this a bit of a double standard?

I didn’t say anything about Xenephobia didn’t even enter my mind. It was you that brought it into the conversation. The thread was about the difficulty of Uk passport holding dancers finding jobs here and abroad and the fact that it was now more difficult as many EU companies are stipulating only EU auditionees. It was then pointed out that 14 RBS students had recently secured contracts overseas. All I said was that 11 of them had probably found it a little easier (not taking away from their talent or that they didn’t deserve these postings) as they were either EU or USA passport holders. This is when for some reason Xenophobia was brought into the mix. After which , I mused that if many (not all) companies abroad were no longer accepting non EU dancers - does that make them Xenephobic. As it seems that if the same (only UK passport holders) were to happen in the UK or is even discussed It would be and is slammed as such. Isn’t this double standards ? I have nothing left to say on the subject and am signing out.

[Roberta]

36 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

Or we are seeing the consequences of the 2016 referendum .

 

Well yes. We lost our own 'freedom of movement' post Brexit.  It hasn't really hit home with many people yet. 

 

UK companies have always employed dancers from other countries.  Dame Ninette de Valois was Irish. Monica Mason is South African. 

 

British dancers have always danced in companies abroad.  They still do, though if a company has more paperwork & has to spend money to employ a UK passport holder and an equally as talented dancer with an EU passport and residency rights and ability to tour with the company without the problems can be hired, I suspect they will go for the easy option. 

Edited April 12 by Roberta

[Birdy]

Many junior/studio company positions are paid, just not as much as a full company member. Even some run through academies still give a stipend for housing and a small living expense allowance. Joffrey Studio Company in Chicago is quite generous despite being run through the school. Germany junior companies are also generally quite good. My DD’s is a little less generous so I’ll still have to supplement her a bit, but far less than if she was at university. She knows that I had a certain amount saved up for post-grad and that if she chose to pursue ballet there would not be funds left for university. I told her it is her life and her risk to take and this is what she chose. Fortunately she is at a place that has a high rate of moving their second company dancers into the main company. I don’t know if I’d feel the same if it was a place where most dancers don’t receive a place at the end. I know some junior companies leave dancers right back where they started—desperately searching for a job but two years older. 
I completely understand the stress and frustration of dancers and their parents during the job search. So much feels like it ultimately comes down to luck. 

 

[alison]

On 11/04/2024 at 18:32, batmanballetshoes said:

& while we're on it paying to go to an audition when you don't even know the terms of the contract.... unheard of in any other profession - cant imagine paying to go to an interview and not knowing the salary! 

 

I think that's not infrequently the case, from what I see elsewhere. "Salary commensurate with age and experience" is something I not infrequently see.

[Kerfuffle]

Judi Dench is so right, this situation is similar for actors and musicians. You have to catch the right person’s eye. It’s the same at school auditions , I feel there is a lot of luck involved. Who you  know is also very important. There are more people spending more money on ballet, I think competitions have increased the pressure (private lessons, associates, intensives etc being part of this cost). I think there is a limit to how far you can train though even if it seems like these extras are going to make you get further, I have a suspicion that a lot of this is just a distraction. All bodies have their own limitations. 

[taxi4ballet]

On 09/04/2024 at 17:14, Colman said:

And you’re happy for the rest of the world to reciprocate?

They already do.