company auditions, why so few places...?

[Birdy]

3 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

They already do.

For example?

[Kate_N]

18 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

You have to catch the right person’s eye. It’s the same at school auditions , I feel there is a lot of luck involved. Who you  know is also very important.

Up to a point …. Opportunities can often be about being in the right place at the right time etc etc as you say @Kerfuffle

 

But if the person (in whatever kind of job in any area) doesn’t have the skill, the talent, and the work ethic, that lucky break might be their last. It’s alchemy, isn’t it? But it’s also about good training and hard work.

[Kerfuffle]

Absolutely,  so it’s always going to be a mixture of those things, as with all professions at an elite level.  Hard work at a great school can help you gain a good technique but less quantifiable  qualities such as performance also come into play. 

 

I think it’s really helpful  having the potential pitfalls and scams pointed out and good to have realistic expectations without losing hope.

[taxi4ballet]

20 hours ago, Birdy said:

For example?

POB

[Birdy]

Paris Opera Ballet may be the most insular of the major western European companies, but they do accept dancers from outside the EU and dancers who did not attend their school. I would say the most insular company in the US is probably New York City Ballet because they mainly accept students from SAB, but that is not closed to non-Americans. I’ve seen zero evidence to suggest that UK dancers are at some greater disadvantage than dancers from any other country.

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, Birdy said:

Paris Opera Ballet may be the most insular of the major western European companies, but they do accept dancers from outside the EU and dancers who did not attend their school. I would say the most insular company in the US is probably New York City Ballet because they mainly accept students from SAB, but that is not closed to non-Americans. I’ve seen zero evidence to suggest that UK dancers are at some greater disadvantage than dancers from any other country.

Not a company as such but I do know that some European schools are less and less enthusiastic to take on British students since Brexit. That was definitely mentioned to my daughter when she was in Europe. It’s not only the visa issues but also a rumbling grumble that UK chose to make things so tricky. It’s not just in the Ballet world but in employment in general. A friend’s daughter has had great difficulty in getting a visa to start work ( not dance) in Spain. They are giving out far less visa’s to the Brits than before.

[Aklf]

From observation, there are so many factors at play that may explain this lack of jobs for graduates.

 

The knock on effect of Covid, resulting budget cuts (and particularly savage arts funding cuts in the Uk)

 

The impact of Brexit especially on UK dancers makes it increasingly difficult for non EU passport holders to land contracts in Europe. To secure a contract in USA I understand the visa process is even more challenging and expensive and US contracts are typically shorter -maybe paid 9 months salary in the year? 

 

Sadly, there are seemingly nowhere near 5 contracts available to graduates at UK companies. Also, UK companies typically hire dancers from all over the world not exclusively UK or UK trained dancers. 

 

The war in Ukraine means there are even more hugely talented and experienced displaced dancers from the region seeking  jobs. 

 

The relatively new phenomenon of junior companies and traineeship programmes that offer further training to graduates who have not secured paid contracts signals that there is a need for these as the demand and supply of graduates to contracts is nowhere near in balance. (It is sometimes difficult to tell which are paid positions and which ones you pay for.)

 

From experience, even junior companies are receiving an avalanche of applications for limited audition spots. One mid scale European junior company acknowledged that they received 530 Video applications for only 36 audition places so this gave a small indication of how competitive the market currently is. Of 36 auditioned there, I believe there were only 2 contracts available. 

 

There has been a lot of change in company directors globally this year, and in recent years so perhaps they will settle in first and hire suitable dancers later to suit their vision?

 

I have also noticed a shift toward more and more contemporary works in rep so do wonder which companies will remain strongly classically focused in future?

 

I do feel for all the hard working and talented young dancers graduating from schools across the world who show such dedication and hope that things settle down soon and more opportunities arise. 

[Kerfuffle]

Contemporary works are an important part of company repertoire these days which I think this is a good thing for dancers, giving them a chance to have a bit more individuality than only pure classical. In this country the upper schools associated with our top ballet companies have an  international intake so it’s not very surprising that the companies do too. Top London art schools and conservatoires are also full of students from overseas (as are universities such as Imperial) .
Brexit makes it difficult for non EU  to attend European Ballet School, although I have met Americans who don’t mind the 3 months on 3 months off visa situation - part of the difficulty is how our education structure clashes with this. It looks like our relationship with the EU is improving and with a change of government fingers crossed some of these barriers will be removed or improved on. The shadow culture secretary trained at the Royal  College  of Music  and is looking into improving the deal with Europe for touring musicians which  should help dancers with work visas too. That’s my hope anyway! 

[Ruby Foo]

43 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Contemporary works are an important part of company repertoire these days which I think this is a good thing for dancers, giving them a chance to have a bit more individuality than only pure classical. In this country the upper schools associated with our top ballet companies have an  international intake so it’s not very surprising that the companies do too. Top London art schools and conservatoires are also full of students from overseas (as are universities such as Imperial) .
Brexit makes it difficult for non EU  to attend European Ballet School, although I have met Americans who don’t mind the 3 months on 3 months off visa situation - part of the difficulty is how our education structure clashes with this. It looks like our relationship with the EU is improving and with a change of government fingers crossed some of these barriers will be removed or improved on. The shadow culture secretary trained at the Royal  College  of Music  and is looking into improving the deal with Europe for touring musicians which  should help dancers with work visas too. That’s my hope anyway! 

Americans, Canadians, Australians all have varying ways within the law of obtaining a EU visa. Not particularly easy and a lot of form filling and cost, but possible. Many of my daughters friends from US and Australia had managed to do this. This option is not possible for UK residents/passport holders. Believe me, we fully researched with a lawyer. This is for a visa longer than 3 months allowed.

Edited April 14 by Ruby Foo

[Kerfuffle]

My American friend’s daughter had to go home for 3 months but perhaps she didn’t know about this or was too young at the time (14 I think). We felt it was a very bad deal for an upper school but they can study online much easier. 

[Lifeafterballet]

15 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Americans, Canadians, Australians all have varying ways within the law of obtaining a EU visa. Not particularly easy and a lot of form filling and cost, but possible. Many of my daughters friends from US and Australia had managed to do this. This option is not possible for UK residents/passport holders. Believe me, we fully researched with a lawyer. This is for a visa longer than 3 months allowed.

My son’s EU country was very welcoming and the process very straightforward. I don’t believe any of the other international dancers have had any problems obtaining a residency permit. All they needed was a contract and an address. His was for 5 years, pre Brexit, and those who joined after get a year. But they all renew successfully.

Maybe it just some particular countries. 

[Pointeperfect]

I think there’s more we can do as parents- frequently there’s posts about kids having multiple private lessons, attending multiple associates and flying out to intensives worldwide but how many are allocating some of this budget to buying tickets to watch ballet whether large or possibly more importantly small companies? The reality of the breadth of the repertoire not just the tutu ballets might be a reality check for some whilst ensuring some increased ticket sales bridge some of the deficit from the hole in funding and maybe even lead to more jobs!

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, Lifeafterballet said:

My son’s EU country was very welcoming and the process very straightforward. I don’t believe any of the other international dancers have had any problems obtaining a residency permit. All they needed was a contract and an address. His was for 5 years, pre Brexit, and those who joined after get a year. But they all renew successfully.

Maybe it just some particular countries. 

 
This was for a student visa and not a working/ residency permit.

In some European countries, a school college must be accredited by their government in order for non EU students to apply for a student visa.

For a school to be accredited by their government, they must prove they are taking a certain percentage of students from their own country. Some schools prefer not to do that.

[Lifeafterballet]

8 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

 
This was for a student visa and not a working/ residency permit.

In some European countries, a school college must be accredited by their government in order for non EU students to apply for a student visa.

For a school to be accredited by their government, they must prove they are taking a certain percentage of students from their own country. Some schools prefer not to do that.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about companies ☺️

[Derin's Mom]

On 11/04/2024 at 20:12, Sadielou said:

At the risk of being shouted down I thought I would share a few of my insights, thoughts on the current work / audition situation for our young dancers.

 

As some have mentioned previously there are now far too many schools, just counted 12 in the UK, (and they are just the well know ones), and far too few jobs to accommodate the amount of Graduates filing out of them every year. The ratios involved are never going to add up. So why oh why are “Dancers” on the Gov UK jobs available list ???  Another petition needed I think.

 

Due to the lack of jobs, many vocational colleges have ramped up their training to include an extra Graduate year, and now another new trend has emerged the “Trainee course” and my personal hate “The Junior Company” These courses are only serving to prolong the fate of dancers that are unable to find viable jobs. Yes I hear you scream, but isn’t it better that students are keeping in shape, doing class and gaining valuable experience. No, in my humble opinion it is fleecing parents of money and prolonging the inevitable.

 

Many European Companies have a glut of older dancers, dancers that are entrenched until retirement (who can blame them) so there are very few new contracts up for grabs. Employing new dancers on full time contracts, runs the risk (after two years employment) of having that dancer fill that spot till the bitter end. So Companies having got wise to this have invented “The Junior Company” or “Trainees" to fill their empty Corps spots. Because on these Junior contracts, young dancers can easily be replaced yearly, with no worry of having them wait out their time till retirement. New blood every year for the company for way less money, win win. Having had a Son working for a European Junior Company. I know first hand, that these kids get paid less (some not at all) Yet do the same amount of work and in most cases more than the full time Corps Company members.

 

My other Son after graduation had a “Trainee” contract in a different European Co. He was paid 500 Euros a month, which didn’t even cover his rent. The contract stated that the trainees would be training alongside the full time company dancers and helped into work at the end of the contract. Of course this didn’t happen. On day one the Director gave an introductory speech, his first statement being that  ‘There will be no contracts at the end of this season” A very depressing reality on your first day. There was no “Training” per se and all trainees were thrown into all performances alongside the full company members, even, as in my Sons case doing featured roles. At the end of the contract, there was, as promised no contracts and no help with auditioning elsewhere. Not even a thank you for all your hard work. All that was offered was another trainee year. We nearly capitulated and signed a second contract, but in the end had to come to the sensible decision, that it was simply unaffordable, and delaying the inevitable. We found out later that the Government paid this Company 3000 Euros per month for each trainee of which there were 6. As the trainees themselves only received 500 per month.this meant that  15000 euros monthly went into the company coffers curtsy of these young dancers. What a rip off !

 

I thought that since my dancing days things would have improved, but actually think they have got much worse. At least in my day students were paid to perform with the major companies. I am fed up with hearing of young dancers being expected to work as extras for little or no payment, propping up the major companies who couldn't do the classics without them.

 

Year after year ENB use young dancers as extra’s. ENB have pared down their contracted dancers to such a degree that they simply cannot do any of their classics without an influx of extras. These dancers are treated like second class citizens, not given company dressing rooms, (literally put in a bathroom) unable to use the company Gym or Physio suite and on top of that ENB has the audacity to pay them £100  a week less than the corps company members who are doing the same and in some cases less work. But year after year ENB know dancers will apply as extra’s hoping to gain that illusive full contract. A contract that never materialises as more often than not the Director has already employed a dancer scouted from one or other of the big competitions, or, as I see this year already, a Canadian, Dutch trained dancer scouted at the Grands Audition. Why don't they take from their feeder school, or from the many extra's who already know their productions. These students / extras must be good enough as they are already performing for paying audiences under the ENB banner. RB & BRB are even worse as they don't even bother to pay their students. Once again poor parents, are unwittingly subsidising these productions, by providing a free workforce and on top of that paying outrageous ticket prices, to see their kids on stage. Please remember parents that the Directors of these companies are all being paid extremely well and that none of these big productions could be staged without this poorly paid /free work force. I think this is a scandal that badly needs addressing.

 

In the UK we have all been lead to believe that training at a well known and respected vocational school is the way to launch our children on the job ladder. However from all the replies, & comments on this thread this is obviously not the case. As Parents we are now expected, to finance private coaching, extra graduate /trainee years, professional photo’s, videos, competition fees / audition fees (Grands audition, YAGP Job fair, and several small companies charge a fee)  costumes, travel and accommodation. Along with subsidising the big companies by providing living & travel expenses for a child working for free or very little. An impossibility for many families. Ballet has sadly once again become a career only the well off can afford. If your child is not at a top feeder school and one of the very few on the fast track to the adjoined company. It seems that private tuition and the chance to perform on the competition circuit is the only way to bag a good contract. I can think of several boys and girls that are now in top jobs whom on paper do not conform to the stipulations on their current companies audition notices. I am not saying that these kids do not deserve their contracts just that if they hadn’t had the opportunity and finances to perform on the competition circuit, they may not have even have been invited to an in person audition. The cost of competitions has already been discussed on this thread. There was an article in Pointe magazine totting up the costs, See link https://pointemagazine.com/ballet-competitions-101/  This article was written in 2018, so imagine the costs now, eye watering !

 

Although we as a family are very lucky to have both kids working, the pain and angst involved on the audition circuit has at times been over whelming. What is the answer, is there one ? What can we as parents do to change this toxic audition / work culture ? As parents we all want our kids to achieve their dreams, but sometimes to quote the old cliche you have to be cruel to be kind, and know when enough is enough. Sadly in most cases it turns out the rewards at the end of the Ballet Rainbow are way too few to counteract the, hard work, expense and inevitable disappointments. Would I do it all again ?  On reflection, honestly no. 

Thank you… so well put.

As a mother of a young woman who is at the very start of her career, I am reading each comment carefully; and saddened to hear the realities of this art form on a proffesional level.

and on another scale in the midst of a war-fed world, the art is less and less important to many country budgets. So it means even less jobs in the future ahead.

Yet, I also carry a hope for my DD (and other young children) that there will be a spot somewhere where she will be welcomed and be happy to perform her artwork. This maybe a small environment or a not well known place but yet honors the art form and allows the dancers to do what they are trained to in soo many years.

ı understand from all written that we will be supporting our DC financially in years to come… I hope this doesnt make them feel useless and draw them away from their proffession.

[Derin's Mom]

14 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

Not a company as such but I do know that some European schools are less and less enthusiastic to take on British students since Brexit. That was definitely mentioned to my daughter when she was in Europe. It’s not only the visa issues but also a rumbling grumble that UK chose to make things so tricky. It’s not just in the Ballet world but in employment in general. A friend’s daughter has had great difficulty in getting a visa to start work ( not dance) in Spain. They are giving out far less visa’s to the Brits than before.

We as a non european citizen for all our lives, are so accustomed to fight for every step; visas, residency permits, job searches…

and with a very unstable economy, it is very difficult for our artist children to remain in their home country and find a job. This is a very sad truth for them as well, to know that the only job they can get in order to do what they love is outside… This is why it becomes crucial.

[Kate_N]

23 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

I think it’s really helpful  having the potential pitfalls and scams pointed out and good to have realistic expectations without losing hope.

 

Absolutely! Top post of the thread!

[glowlight]

@Pointeperfect makes a really good point. We can all help by creating demand. By going to the theatre to watch ballet and dance in all its forms and at all levels. By watching musicals and plays. By going to live music events.

 

Without an audience there can be no jobs. So we should be putting our money where our mouth is and supporting live arts as much as we can afford to.

[Birdy]

11 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

Americans, Canadians, Australians all have varying ways within the law of obtaining a EU visa. Not particularly easy and a lot of form filling and cost, but possible. Many of my daughters friends from US and Australia had managed to do this. This option is not possible for UK residents/passport holders. Believe me, we fully researched with a lawyer. This is for a visa longer than 3 months allowed.

As an American, I would love to know more about what you are talking about. My DD is in Europe on a student residency permit, which is available to anyone in the world. My non-dancing daughter would love to spend more than 90 days in the EU but we have never found any special way to do so. 

[Ruby Foo]

13 hours ago, Birdy said:

As an American, I would love to know more about what you are talking about. My DD is in Europe on a student residency permit, which is available to anyone in the world. My non-dancing daughter would love to spend more than 90 days in the EU but we have never found any special way to do so. 

I will PM you

[Mamaderuby]

On 14/04/2024 at 00:49, Ruby Foo said:

Not a company as such but I do know that some European schools are less and less enthusiastic to take on British students since Brexit. That was definitely mentioned to my daughter when she was in Europe. It’s not only the visa issues but also a rumbling grumble that UK chose to make things so tricky. It’s not just in the Ballet world but in employment in general. A friend’s daughter has had great difficulty in getting a visa to start work ( not dance) in Spain. They are giving out far less visa’s to the Brits than before.

My children have many Spanish friends who would love to work in the UK, non-dancers, educated young people. Post-Brexit, they have the same difficulty as British citizens who want to work/live in Spain.

[Ruby Foo]

2 minutes ago, Mamaderuby said:

My children have many Spanish friends who would love to work in the UK, non-dancers, educated young people. Post-Brexit, they have the same difficulty as British citizens who want to work/live in Spain.

 
I’m sure this is true. I’m merely pointing out our own experience in a certain European country. I can see how difficult it all is for young people who are trying to push on with their lives and make the best of themselves and their training, whether you live in UK or Europe. Our experience was the feeling from some that it was hassle that they could do without.