company auditions, why so few places...?

[Derin's Mom]

Hello all. 

I want to start a topic where ballet parents may put their own feedback. 

My DD is graduating from one of the top ballet schools in Europe, she is a good and clever dancer. Her class is academicly talented. But yet within the past months almost none of them has been offered a place. 

What is going on in the dance world, are there so few places in companies, and for that reason are they looking into dancers with very precise details? These young people are at the very start of their careers and they feel so vulnarable by getting rejection over rejection.

Any suggestions from experiences?

[BarbaraH]

I hear the same at other schools. Apparently one of the comments that is most common is that "they are too young". 

I have the impression that it's normal nowadays to first do another 2 years of junior company/graduate training somewhere before starting a paid position.

 

[batmanballetshoes]

There are few jobs.

[Jan McNulty]

I only know about the ballet world as a watcher so I'm not speaking from personal experience but ...

 

If you take the UK as an example you have 5 main companies and a number of smaller companies.  The number of vacancies depends on the number of dancers leaving or if the company is increasing in size.  In the current economic situation companies are unlikely to be increasing in size so you are dependent on how many dancers may be leaving.  There may be say an average of 5 vacancies per bigger company so that is 25 vacancies.  If you include in the smaller companies there may be another 10 vacancies.  So that is 35 vacancies in the UK.  How many graduates are there from the vocational schools?  In the UK we have RBS, Elmhurst, CSB, NBS, RCS and more.  If, for example, 10 dancers graduate from each of the schools I have mentioned then already there are more potential candidates than vacancies.

 

There is always going to be a mismatch of the number of vacancies with the number of candidates world wide.  In the current financial situation world wide I would imagine that the disparity of candidates vs vacancies will be greater than usual.

[Pointetoes]

1 hour ago, Derin's Mom said:

Hello all. 

I want to start a topic where ballet parents may put their own feedback. 

My DD is graduating from one of the top ballet schools in Europe, she is a good and clever dancer. Her class is academicly talented. But yet within the past months almost none of them has been offered a place. 

What is going on in the dance world, are there so few places in companies, and for that reason are they looking into dancers with very precise details? These young people are at the very start of their careers and they feel so vulnarable by getting rejection over rejection.

Any suggestions from experiences?

It's not just happening to dancers, it's across the board in the world of performing arts. My daughter graduated from one of the top drama schools as an Actor Muso ( actor, musician, singer and dancer) she has had loads of auditions over the last few years but only a handful of jobs, this goes right across her year group from her drama school and others .

There are less jobs around and the writers strike plus covid is still taking its toll.

 

Friends of hers who graduated from upper school/ballet all went on and joined junior companies.

 

Sadly its a very tough world for all in the world of performing arts, they have to learn to be tough and resilient 

[Derin's Mom]

7 minutes ago, Pointetoes said:

It's not just happening to dancers, it's across the board in the world of performing arts. My daughter graduated from one of the top drama schools as an Actor Muso ( actor, musician, singer and dancer) she has had loads of auditions over the last few years but only a handful of jobs, this goes right across her year group from her drama school and others .

There are less jobs around and the writers strike plus covid is still taking its toll.

 

Friends of hers who graduated from upper school/ballet all went on and joined junior companies.

 

Sadly its a very tough world for all in the world of performing arts, they have to learn to be tough and resilient 

I understand. And I assumed as such. Sadly though not even junior companies offer places well enough. She'll stay resilient as you mentioned. Good luck to your DD as well.

[Derin's Mom]

1 hour ago, BarbaraH said:

I hear the same at other schools. Apparently one of the comments that is most common is that "they are too young". 

I have the impression that it's normal nowadays to first do another 2 years of junior company/graduate training somewhere before starting a paid position.

 

yes exactly, but the situation in Europe is; there are few junior co.s and no graduate schools after the age of 18. US is a bit more advantageous in this option.

[Dancing unicorn]

It’s not just ballet companies!

Dd had a cruise ship audition the other week - 3 groups of 80 in each group - 240 mostly girls! She was told afterwards that it was for just 1 place 😂

[Ballet Saga]

I think it’s worth noting that even a ‘top’ school doesn’t guarantee a job. I know a lot of people are swayed by the names of schools. Schools are a business in their own right at the end of the day. They need students and they know that there will be hardly any jobs for their graduates. That’s just the reality of it sadly. 

Hence why all the graduate schemes have popped up (another business). 
 

I fear for my DC like all of us do our kids. We want them to find work. But only a few will. You have to keep trying though if that’s what you want. I would say don’t be too picky when it comes to a job, a job is a job at the end of the day! 
 

Good luck to your DD. Good luck to all the graduates this year. I wish there was a job for them all. 

[Ballet Saga]

4 minutes ago, Dancing unicorn said:

It’s not just ballet companies!

Dd had a cruise ship audition the other week - 3 groups of 80 in each group - 240 mostly girls! She was told afterwards that it was for just 1 place 😂

Gosh! It’s madness. I know even in non arts industries it’s similar. So many jobs are insanely competitive for young people. But I do believe the attitude ‘it might be me’ isn’t a bad one to have! Keep going! 

[Dancing unicorn]

I don’t know how she keeps going, but she is! She is DETERMINED to get a job! And I love her for that 🥰

Her friend went off on her next contract and said to her let me know how you get on - my dd said ‘oh you’ll know when I’ve got a job, I’ll be posting everywhere!!!’ Bless her 🥰😂🥰
Ps her friend is much older and graduated a few years ago - as is said further up I still think covid hasn’t helped!  

Edited April 8 by Dancing unicorn

[Ballet Saga]

2 minutes ago, Dancing unicorn said:

I don’t know how she keeps going, but she is! She is DETERMINED to get a job! And I love her for that 🥰

I think hard work and determination count for a lot! 

[Peanut68]

1 hour ago, Jan McNulty said:

So that is 35 vacancies in the UK.  How many graduates are there from the vocational schools?  In the UK we have RBS, Elmhurst, CSB, NBS, RCS and more.  If, for example, 10 dancers graduate from each of the schools I have mentioned then already there are more potential candidates than vacancies.

Some of just those schools listed could fill these vacancies from its annual graduates…. I do feel there are far too many places in upper schools which promotes the dream it’s possible….an awful lot of money (from government/charity & family funds is being pumped into training to chase such a small likelihood of gaining a company place. The reality is clear to see but then the carpet gets further dangled with ‘junior companies’ , ‘training companies’ ‘graduate programmes’ all requiring yet more funding in most instances….Families struggle to find the standard years of training but its very hard to feel ‘so close’ knowing the dancers are skilled & trained enough already to not just pay the money for ‘just one more year’ when ‘this is the course that will get me seen by the right people’ etc etc. 

It’s so painful. Would the UK train perhaps 10,000 plumbers annually if only 100 were needed in the workplace? I imagine more likely we need an extra 10,000 plumbers!  

 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

It is tough and many company auditions want 3 years of professional experience. This is hard to gain when jobs are limited. Ballet dancers stay longer in companies too than years ago so this means less movement.

Dd is currently working in Paris and dancing but not ballet. She was told by her grad programme directors to take it as there are so few jobs at the moment and she can add to her CV.

[Peanut68]

5 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

She was told by her grad programme directors to take it as there are so few jobs at the moment and she can add to her CV.

I bet they were not only thinking about your dancer but also about their statistics to quote to future cohorts…. I’d love to drill down deeper into the % quoted as working in the industry/going straight into jobs etc as to just what the ‘jobs’ & ‘destinations’ really are…. So many are just short term ‘freelance’ or again actually more paid for training under guise of being a job.

Congrats to your dancer Mummy Twinkle… I hope her current role is a springboard to where she wants to be x

[Neverdancedjustamum]

I never knew much about dancing or ballet until DD realised her love for dancing (just as a hobby though so in a way I’m quite glad not to have to worry about this side of things), so in the past I naively thought that graduates of the “big schools” just walk into company jobs upon graduation. However, I recently noticed that final year students of even the big name schools seem to now attend big auditions and do overseas audition tours. Years ago, a few people told me that if you are a graduate of so and so school you’re guaranteed a job but I’m guessing that’s not the case these days. 

[Ballet Saga]

30 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

I bet they were not only thinking about your dancer but also about their statistics to quote to future cohorts…. I’d love to drill down deeper into the % quoted as working in the industry/going straight into jobs etc as to just what the ‘jobs’ & ‘destinations’ really are…. So many are just short term ‘freelance’ or again actually more paid for training under guise of being a job.

Congrats to your dancer Mummy Twinkle… I hope her current role is a springboard to where she wants to be x

Yes I would like to know this too! A lot of schools seem to have such successful graduates…But statistically that can’t be right! I’m sure the schools just give the impression of success for most. Which at the end of the day pulls in pupils which is what the schools need to run…

 

Also worth noting the schools that assess out or don’t take many of their own into the graduate year look so much better on paper! And it’s quite obvious why! 
 

Edited to add: this is why I tried not to listen to the ‘noise’ when it came to decision making for my DCs school. Looking for graduate destinations doesn’t tell you much about a school. 

Edited April 8 by Ballet Saga

[Derin's Mom]

All comments are fair and correct. In my DD's case actually she started her education back home, trained really hard from the age of 11 full time. Then she recieved offers from good schools in Europe. Then she took one and moved on. And as far as she told me, education is really good and she knew she developed well in these final years. So, what happens now to not herself but her classmates is very heart breaking. And honestly I do not think that the number of students in the school were only accepted for financial reasons. 

It is probably simply the fact that company vacancies are so less than the graduates all round each year.

Plus, classically trained students fear to continue in contemporary right away since they think the return to classical will be so difficult in years to come. So this holds them back from certain jobs as well.

[Roberta]

1 hour ago, Ballet Saga said:

I think it’s worth noting that even a ‘top’ school doesn’t guarantee a job. I know a lot of people are swayed by the names of schools. Schools are a business in their own right at the end of the day. They need students and they know that there will be hardly any jobs for their graduates. That’s just the reality of it sadly. 

Hence why all the graduate schemes have popped up (another business). 

 

 

This. Very much this. It is all a business. 

 

Also add to @Jan McNulty's number crunching above, the fact dancers tend to have longer careers nowadays and retire from the stage later than they used to. There were always exceptions of course, but better nutrition, medical care etc all add up to a dancer being able to carry on far longer. Even a year or two per dancer means fewer 'bottom end' vacancies. 

[Ballet Saga]

4 minutes ago, Derin's Mom said:

All comments are fair and correct. In my DD's case actually she started her education back home, trained really hard from the age of 11 full time. Then she recieved offers from good schools in Europe. Then she took one and moved on. And as far as she told me, education is really good and she knew she developed well in these final years. So, what happens now to not herself but her classmates is very heart breaking. And honestly I do not think that the number of students in the school were only accepted for financial reasons. 

It is probably simply the fact that company vacancies are so less than the graduates all round each year.

Plus, classically trained students fear to continue in contemporary right away since they think the return to classical will be so difficult in years to come. So this holds them back from certain jobs as well.

I think the schools want talented kids. There are a lot of decent kids out there and that’s part of the problem. The jobs can take the best of the best. Plus it’s being at the right place at the right time. So it’s not even about being good or not. I’m sure all the kids are good dancers after all the years of training. The schools are all good schools.  
It really is heartbreaking for the kids after they’ve worked so hard. 

[Pointetoes]

1 hour ago, Dancing unicorn said:

It’s not just ballet companies!

Dd had a cruise ship audition the other week - 3 groups of 80 in each group - 240 mostly girls! She was told afterwards that it was for just 1 place 😂

My Dd was probably there. She takes it all in her stride and puts out down to experience and an excuse to catch up with friends. As crazy as this sounds she is lucky because she knows she has a job in November for 8 weeks but thats a long way a way. Meanwhile she keeps rocking up at auditions, working in the local theatre bar and restaurant and a teacher for the youth theatre group  in the same theatre.

 

I should add she is lucky because she is getting auditions, there are plenty of performers who aren't even getting auditions 

[Allwrong]

Don’t know whether this is heartening or disheartening but, so we don’t feel so sold down the river, it’s good to remember few options are easy for youngsters starting out. A young friend on course for a top degree in law was thrilled finally to get her first interview for a training contract: 1000 candidates for 6 places, all of them with law degrees.

[Dancing unicorn]

Haha! Dd has been to so many auditions! Her agent said to her she’s the perfect height! And yet she’s been too tall and too short! 😂 Even the right hair colour (blonds were dismissed after first round 🤣) and even not living close enough for rehearsals!! She’s been to open auditions and invited!  She knows she’s good enough as keeps getting to next round, and final round! But the right job has just not come up yet 😂 Bless her, I know there’s a job there somewhere, it’s just a waiting game! 🩷

[Emeralds]

4 hours ago, Derin's Mom said:

Hello all. 

I want to start a topic where ballet parents may put their own feedback. 

My DD is graduating from one of the top ballet schools in Europe, she is a good and clever dancer. Her class is academicly talented. But yet within the past months almost none of them has been offered a place. 

What is going on in the dance world, are there so few places in companies, and for that reason are they looking into dancers with very precise details? These young people are at the very start of their careers and they feel so vulnarable by getting rejection over rejection.

Any suggestions from experiences?

I don't have offspring looking for ballet/dance jobs but am very familiar with this scenario from friends who went through it. There are unfortunately a lot of dance schools, a lot of very good graduates and not enough jobs or dance companies in the UK and around the world, and that's always been the case.

 

I'd advise parents and graduates to expect a lot of rejections when starting out, and not to pay much heed to the "too tall, too short, wrong whatever" feedback- if the feedback doesn't pinpoint anything to do with the actual dancing or technique, it usually means that she (or he) was very good but so were 30 (or more) other dancers and they only had the funds to hire one, so a lot of very good candidates will have to be rejected for no good reason unfortunately.

 

One approach that some have said reduces the pressure at auditions was to go to them and use the auditions as an opportunity to perform for someone new (even if it was barre work only or even if just tendus) and not to care if you get the job or not.

 

Somehow, being under less pressure made them stand out from the other equally good candidates, who looked too anxious or too eager to please, and led to a job being offered! That might work for some.

 

Best of luck to all the DDs and DSs auditioning for jobs! 

[Derin's Mom]

31 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

I don't have offspring looking for ballet/dance jobs but am very familiar with this scenario from friends who went through it. There are unfortunately a lot of dance schools, a lot of very good graduates and not enough jobs or dance companies in the UK and around the world, and that's always been the case.

 

I'd advise parents and graduates to expect a lot of rejections when starting out, and not to pay much heed to the "too tall, too short, wrong whatever" feedback- if the feedback doesn't pinpoint anything to do with the actual dancing or technique, it usually means that she (or he) was very good but so were 30 (or more) other dancers and they only had the funds to hire one, so a lot of very good candidates will have to be rejected for no good reason unfortunately.

 

One approach that some have said reduces the pressure at auditions was to go to them and use the auditions as an opportunity to perform for someone new (even if it was barre work only or even if just tendus) and not to care if you get the job or not.

 

Somehow, being under less pressure made them stand out from the other equally good candidates, who looked too anxious or too eager to please, and led to a job being offered! That might work for some.

 

Best of luck to all the DDs and DSs auditioning for jobs! 

thank you 🙂 if only they receive invitations for auditions... 

but yes, trying for almost everything is the only way to go forward.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

2 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I bet they were not only thinking about your dancer but also about their statistics to quote to future cohorts…. I’d love to drill down deeper into the % quoted as working in the industry/going straight into jobs etc as to just what the ‘jobs’ & ‘destinations’ really are…. So many are just short term ‘freelance’ or again actually more paid for training under guise of being a job.

Congrats to your dancer Mummy Twinkle… I hope her current role is a springboard to where she wants to be x

Thank you. We keep looking for opportunities but for now at least she is able to earn a living at dancing. She can also pay for her own additional ballet classes in Paris so that is a bonus 🩰

[Mamaderuby]

Hi. Came across this. Not sure if it is of interest to anyone. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C5B7ZWHo1BJ/?igsh=bWtzeWU2czVjanh1

 

[glowlight]

I remember having a conversation with my dd on a long car journey when she was in her graduate year where she explained to me the statistical probability of her landing a contract with a ballet company, given the number of students graduating and the number of jobs available. She wanted to lower our expectations I think. From then on she decided to apply / audition for anything she could find (unless it involved top-drop). She continued to apply for ballet and contemporary contracts, and had a few auditions, and she went to loads of open auditions for cruise companies, Disney, agencies, musical theatre. She played the numbers game, got down to the last few several times and that softened the blow of all the times she was cut. Eventually she got on the books for Carnival, and about 5 months later she got the call offering her a contract. That was the day after she had decided she couldn't face any more auditions.

 

I know things are even harder now, but I would encourage your DCs to keep going and to keep an open mind about what jobs they are prepared to take. But also...when they've had enough you'll need to support them to step away. 

[Sadielou]

Newly formed London City Ballet, who held a two day audition for over 200 dancers last January, have just announced their company roster. 

Only 3 of 14 dancers are British. Of those employed only 4 attended the audition. 75% of the dancers appear to be quite mature and still employed by other companies. There is only one graduate who appears to be from Canada on the company list. What hope is there for British graduates in this country. The old London City Ballet although run by a South African, with a Prima Ballerina also from South Africa, was mainly made up of young British graduates. It was great opportunity for those who did not make it into the two main companies to garner experience and tour the Classics. This new company is London City Ballet in name only and not the Company that many were hoping would give young graduates new opportunities.

[Lifeafterballet]

26 minutes ago, Sadielou said:

Newly formed London City Ballet, who held a two day audition for over 200 dancers last January, have just announced their company roster. 

Only 3 of 14 dancers are British. Of those employed only 4 attended the audition. 75% of the dancers appear to be quite mature and still employed by other companies. There is only one graduate who appears to be from Canada on the company list. What hope is there for British graduates in this country. The old London City Ballet although run by a South African, with a Prima Ballerina also from South Africa, was mainly made up of young British graduates. It was great opportunity for those who did not make it into the two main companies to garner experience and tour the Classics. This new company is London City Ballet in name only and not the Company that many were hoping would give young graduates new opportunities.

Very sad 😔 

But I’m not surprised at all.

[Peanut68]

3 hours ago, Sadielou said:

Newly formed London City Ballet, who held a two day audition for over 200 dancers last January, have just announced their company roster. 

Only 3 of 14 dancers are British. Of those employed only 4 attended the audition. 75% of the dancers appear to be quite mature and still employed by other companies. There is only one graduate who appears to be from Canada on the company list. What hope is there for British graduates in this country. The old London City Ballet although run by a South African, with a Prima Ballerina also from South Africa, was mainly made up of young British graduates. It was great opportunity for those who did not make it into the two main companies to garner experience and tour the Classics. This new company is London City Ballet in name only and not the Company that many were hoping would give young graduates new opportunities.

This is where our government really needs to step in & remove the job of  ballet dancer  from the list of employment roles that are unable to be filled & thus ok to easily hire overseas dancers. I am not against overseas talent but feel that should be used in the capacity of guest artists in principal roles - this giving opportunity to enjoy very many overseas dancers. But I do strongly believe that all UK based ballet companies should employ only UK dancers & professionals in at least the bulk of their positions.

It seems ludicrous that the government spends millions funding the training of UK dancers through MDS & DaDa awards as well as supporting ballet schools through other arts & education funding & charity status to then not try & protect in some way the company vacancies for these home trained dancers. 

Edited April 9 by Peanut68

[Raquelle]

2 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

This is where our government really needs to step in & remove the job of  ballet dancer  from the list of employment roles that are unable to be filled & thus ok to easily hire overseas dancers. I am not against overseas talent but feel that should be used in the capacity of guest artists in principal roles - this giving opportunity to enjoy very many overseas dancers. But I do strongly believe that all UK based ballet companies should employ only UK dancers & professionals in at least the bulk of their positions.

It seems ludicrous that the government spends millions funding the training of UK dancers through MDS & DaDa awards as well as supporting ballet schools through other arts & education funding & charity status to then not try & protect in some way the company vacancies for these home trained dancers. 

Very well said! 👏 

[Colman]

And you’re happy for the rest of the world to reciprocate?