Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[LinMM]

The “welcome back” would be the more natural interpretation for the applause after some time away but may show just how obsessive the feeling about weight loss success was at the time! 
Also I think fostering a more generally friendly and supportive atmosphere would lessen the feeling that people are watching just to judge you. 
Of course Ballet being a performing Art you have to get used to people looking at you but there’s “being watched”  within a happy positive atmosphere and “being watched” in a largely negative one. 

[taxi4ballet]

4 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

In the Panorama and radio broadcasts some of the students did say that they felt watched and judged by all the other students. Ellen E highlighted a moment when she returned to RBS after battling glandular fever and received a round of applause. Because she had lost more weight through the illness, at that time she took it to be approval for that, and it reinforced her resolve to lose more. Now she admits she may have misinterpreted, and it was just to welcome her back.

Yes, but it does beg the question - why did she feel that way about her weight and needing to be thin in the first place? 

[Emeralds]

On 18/09/2023 at 14:35, Ruby Foo said:

Perhaps you haven’t seen my previous posts Emeralds.

My dd obviously didn’t tick any of the right boxes!

She was assessed out after a year of verbal abuse that literally crushed her.

As I said before in another post that was shut down, she cried every day that year and more than in the whole of her 17yrs. At one point the teacher in question put a line of 6 girls in 1st cast, a line of 6 girls in 2nd cast and then sniggered to my daughter that ‘ ‘oh dear, looks like you’ll need to be in 3rd cast won’t you?’ Picked up her bag and left the room. There was no 3rd cast. It was a completely unnecessary comment to undermine her already non existent confidence. She was broken that night. Not because she wasn’t good enough to be in the performance but because of the underhand nastiness, the lack of helpful communication. What help was that comment? It did not help her gain more strength/ improve her technique/ gain more artistry. What it did do was humiliate and belittle her. The teacher bullied her in every class for a whole year ( from 3rd week in Upper School) because she was frustrated that my dd was not good enough. The teacher told me she did not have a good body for Classical Ballet. Having been accepted for Upper School, this was fairly concerning.

None of this was to do with weight or physical appearance and I stand by my previous post that the messages  she was receiving regarding that subject were extremely positive. 
 
I do, however completely take your point that a ‘rogue’ teacher, ( I have described one above) who is not part of the health team and not on board with the positive policies of the School

can simply cause the worst damage imaginable with their words.

 

Thank you for the clarification, Ruby- I couldn’t find your post where you’d  shared what happened with your daughter as it’s such a long thread (16 pages now) and I only found it quite late after initially following only the Performances/Discussions forum one,  and indeed as you say, one thread/post was shut down so I missed it altogether. Thank you for taking the time and all the effort to repost it once more.

 

I agree that these experiences you describe your daughter enduring are examples of completely unacceptable teaching practice. It is also worrying, Ruby, that your daughter seems to have been bullied for “not having the body for classical ballet”- something that is not her fault- rather than how well she was learning and mastering advanced ballet technique. Students should not be bullied or belittled at all, of course, whether by teachers or anyone else. They should instead be encouraged by their teachers to keep working on improving their skills- things that they can actually do something about. 

 

What disturbs me in the examples you and other parents report, and what the former students in the programme have recounted, is that the teachers should not even be making any remarks or comments about the students’ build or physique in the first place. That is simply not their job to do so. 

(Worse still, they make criticisms and attempt to bully the pupil as though that will somehow magically transform a student’s body, like some bizarre form of witchcraft.) 

 

It’s like a sports coach complaining that their athlete wasn’t born with longer legs, or a music teacher complaining that their students don’t have longer fingers. I’ve done both at a competitive (sport) and advanced (music) level and never have I heard that!  That’s absolutely not their job to mention it, let alone insinuate that their student should “do something about it”-in any other kind of school or sports club that would be professionally negligent and would see them sacked or their licence revoked. Unfortunately  ballet teachers don’t require a licence to teach, so they can get away with it- there is no professional regulation or authority to be accountable to. Perhaps there should be. Of those who do have teaching qualifications some in fact obtained their teaching certificate from the very same institution where they are carrying out their toxic habits- the Royal Ballet School!

 

To go back to the sport and music comparison, good music teachers and sports coaches actually spend a lot of time teaching their students techniques in how to overcome disadvantageous physical attributes: fingers not long enough? - this is what you can do instead, to be able to play the chord. Legs not long enough? - here’s what we can do to improve your stride so that you can still be as fast as or faster than a taller athlete. 

 

Surely if a dance teacher felt that the student was unlucky to be born with a disadvantageous physique, it is their job to teach the student how to compensate for those disadvantages. Otherwise, there’s no point in paying their salary, or indeed, the astronomical fees of institutions like RBS, Elmhurst, Hammond, YDA, etc. Certainly a lot of good teachers outside these schools and around the world spend a lot of time teaching their students how to overcome those disadvantages. Not naturally long limbed? - let's work on your elevation, batterie and turns, so that you have other features that audiences want to see and directors want to cast you for. Not having the “right body for classical ballet” never stopped Wayne Sleep, Ivan Vasiliev and Julio Bocca having successful careers- of course, they all had artistic directors and dance teachers who believed in them instead of belittling them. 

 

The dance world has been aware of the dangers of eating disorders and favouring extreme thinness in ballet since the 1990s. Why do the rogue teachers and directors in these vocational ballet schools insist on going back to the unenlightened pre-1990 era?? There are more dance companies in Britain and abroad today, and more companies that favour diversity and a range of body shapes; dance graduates are not restricted to applying for just 5 classical ballet companies or Rambert in the U.K. Cheaper air fares than in the 1980s make it possible for graduates to audition and find jobs abroad if they can’t get a position in the U.K.

 

The excuse that “we’re just doing this to help our students find jobs” doesn’t hold up. It’s incredibly foolish to believe that bullying or trying to persuade a teen to diet excessively will help them find a job- perhaps those teachers would have been better off focusing on doing more teaching of technique and skills rather than obsessing about what can’t be altered. 

 

On other threads it has been discussed about how few RBS White Lodge students are being offered places with the Upper School or how few British graduates are being offered positions in British companies. If so many rogue teachers at the vocational schools are carrying out such toxic teaching practices and the schools are assessing out students for not being thin enough, or having “the wrong shape”, it is hardly surprising that they are assessing out the wrong students, failing so many of the students who remain, hence so few make it into professional companies compared to foreign schools. (Is it perhaps time to defund RBS, Elmhurst, etc and the taxpayers’ funds used instead to enable promising students to train at more nurturing  and encouraging institutions abroad?)

 

It looks like we both partially misunderstood the intent of each other’s replies initially, Ruby,  but I hope we are both on the same page now. Really sad and sorry to hear what horrid treatment your daughter endured- I hope she is in a much kinder and happier environment now, and that she knows (although such ill treatment often takes a long time to forget and to shake off) that she has talent, and should be proud of all her achievements. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Emeralds

[Pas de Quatre]

I would say the cult of thinness goes all the way back to the 1960s.  Lynn Seymour considered too rounded, various accounts of Balanchine's regime at NYCB e.g. biography of Gelsey Kirkland.

[dancefanatic]

58 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

There are more dance companies in Britain and abroad today, and more companies that favour diversity and a range of body shapes; dance graduates are not restricted to applying for just 5 classical ballet companies or Rambert in the U.K. Cheaper air fares than in the 1980s make it possible for graduates to audition and find jobs abroad if they can’t get a position in the U.K.

 

I'm sorry but have to butt in here.  Sadly, more and more companies in Europe are insisting that applicants possess EU passports and US rules around visas seem to vary company by company, even when in the same State, making it increasingly difficult for our lovely new graduates who only possess a British passport to even apply for jobs.  And yet graduates from around the world are able to be granted jobs and/or apprenticeships with British dance companies.  I know this goes off-topic but is increasingly a bug-bear of mine.  I personally would like all dancers, no matter their nationality, ethnicity or gender, to have equal opportunities globally than have what appear to be unfair restrictions placed on our UK dancers, particularly at the beginning of their careers.  So I personally disagree with the point raised here.

 

[Ondine]

The Royal Ballet School is certainly trawling the world now for applicants, and it's possible that overseas applicants and their wider ranging passports may be part of that.  It is very sad that a UK passport brings restrictions, post Brexit, if that's the case. 

 

All those 'taster' and Associates schemes and the rest in the UK are fine but if the opportuntities to train and eventually dance are not there, there will be many disappointed young people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ruby Foo]

Thank you Emeralds for your post and for clarifying. Appreciated.

 You’re right that she was taken into US  not having ‘a suitable ballet body’ ( teacher’s words) ( joint issues) and bullied because of it.

She is not dancing now due to a serious injury sustained in 1st year ( due to her joint inefficiency) which may never heal and was insufficiently treated ( independently clarified by private consultants).

In all this, there was absolutely no communication from the school whatsoever until the one line negative assessment result.

I must also disagree with the idea that institutions abroad are more nurturing and encouraging. They are different, yes. After 3 months in a top European Ballet School my dd would say the body shaming  is just unbelievable. She was completely and utterly shocked. It was not directed at her but at others in her class. It seemed to be part of the curriculum and the students seemed to be pretty used to it, which is extremely sad. Having always had the best guidance on nutrition and never witnessing criticism on body shape in all 5 yrs she was at RBS, it came as a very unpleasant experience. She was, however,  treated as a mature individual by the AD, who made it his job to know all his students very well.  He asked her opinions and her gaols and helped her tremendously. A totally new experience for her after RBS, where the only couple of times she met the AD he called her the wrong name.

 

 

 

[Pups_mum]

I was thinking about this thread this week when we had a feedback call with my son's sports coach from the talent development pathway he is on. He has (as far as the sport is concerned) a significant physical deficiency that can't be changed - basically he is too short to make it to the very highest level, no matter what else he does. But that's always been treated fairly.  No false hopes, and no disparaging comments either. We discussed his strengths and weaknesses candidly. No platitudes and the coach is definitely not "soft" but she also pointed out what he's achieved, where he is improved and what other areas need work to further compensate for his lack of height.

There are kids on the pathway that are probably destined for the Olympics in due course. My son is not one of them and he knows it, but he has never felt that he is just there to make up the numbers, there's a genuine desire to make him the best player he can be even if it's not the national team. There isn't just one end game and nothing else matters. After getting his feedback he has decided to attend this year's trials (everyone had to try out again every year, nobody automatically progresses) but I know if he is not successful they'll offer advice on what he should be doing instead and he gets the option of coming back to a few sessions later in the year so they can review their decision if he wants. The experience has been radically different compared to my DD's experiences in the dance world.

I know we are lucky to be in a good system but also to have excellent individuals locally. Junior sport is not without its problems and there are bad experiences  in all fields. But my son's experience shows it can be done. Issues with physique can be handled candidly but sensitively. It is possible to develop young people without perfect physiques and to show them alternative paths without making them feel like they have been thrown on the scrap heap. These issues can be discussed honestly without being unkind. If (at least some) sport can do it, surely ballet should be able to as well?

[Ruby Foo]

2 minutes ago, Pups_mum said:

I was thinking about this thread this week when we had a feedback call with my son's sports coach from the talent development pathway he is on. He has (as far as the sport is concerned) a significant physical deficiency that can't be changed - basically he is too short to make it to the very highest level, no matter what else he does. But that's always been treated fairly.  No false hopes, and no disparaging comments either. We discussed his strengths and weaknesses candidly. No platitudes and the coach is definitely not "soft" but she also pointed out what he's achieved, where he is improved and what other areas need work to further compensate for his lack of height.

There are kids on the pathway that are probably destined for the Olympics in due course. My son is not one of them and he knows it, but he has never felt that he is just there to make up the numbers, there's a genuine desire to make him the best player he can be even if it's not the national team. There isn't just one end game and nothing else matters. After getting his feedback he has decided to attend this year's trials (everyone had to try out again every year, nobody automatically progresses) but I know if he is not successful they'll offer advice on what he should be doing instead and he gets the option of coming back to a few sessions later in the year so they can review their decision if he wants. The experience has been radically different compared to my DD's experiences in the dance world.

I know we are lucky to be in a good system but also to have excellent individuals locally. Junior sport is not without its problems and there are bad experiences  in all fields. But my son's experience shows it can be done. Issues with physique can be handled candidly but sensitively. It is possible to develop young people without perfect physiques and to show them alternative paths without making them feel like they have been thrown on the scrap heap. These issues can be discussed honestly without being unkind. If (at least some) sport can do it, surely ballet should be able to as well?

Well said! Thank you!

[Beezie]

3 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

I must also disagree with the idea that institutions abroad are more nurturing and encouraging. They are different, yes. After 3 months in a top European Ballet School my dd would say the body shaming  is just unbelievable.

Agree with this.  When you overlay some European culture norms with ballet and then try to translate to English, the end product is quite tough.  I would not call our European experience, even with little kids, nurturing.  It’s somewhere between ‘tough’ and ‘tough love.’  But I also recognize every region has a slightly different culture as does every school.

[Beezie]

3 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

There are kids on the pathway that are probably destined for the Olympics in due course. My son is not one of them and he knows it, but he has never felt that he is just there to make up the numbers, there's a genuine desire to make him the best player he can be even if it's not the national team.

I have always felt like this was a problem with ballet.  There is not enough ‘middle ground.’  It seems like everyone is aiming for ‘Professional,’ because the opportunities to be ‘Really Good’ and have an enjoyable adolescent experience are too limited.

 

I also feel like the deficits in dance are a little ridiculous, so are hard to explain to a parent.  Like:

Your kid’s foot doesn’t have a bony bump on top….or….Your kid’s knee doesn’t bend unnaturally backwards, which is a liability but sure looks pretty.

I completely understand parents hearing that and thinking “Surely that isn’t a make-it-or-break-it attribute.”  And kids thinking the same as well, because they dance beautifully.  So perhaps it is harder to hear these comments, as they often sound a bit nonsensical.

 

I would also add, from personal experience, there is such a wide range of teacher responses to facility. The most direct feedback (removing some polite qualifiers) was: “I’m looking for natural flexibility and turnout in the students I train.  I don’t want to work with them at developing flexibility, even if they could get there with hard work.”  Fine.  Very Vagonova.  But in what other sport would we allow a coach to say “I am only looking for children who are naturally tall, and then they can join the team.”  That type of sorting isn’t acceptable until what? Maybe late teen years at earliest.  But in the ballet world, those types of comments seem to be common starting at 9yr old.  In fact, they seem to be the cornerstone of the training programs at many famous ballet schools.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Beezie

[meadowblythe]

4 hours ago, Emeralds said:

There are more dance companies in Britain and abroad today, and more companies that favour diversity and a range of body shapes; dance graduates are not restricted to applying for just 5 classical ballet companies or Rambert in the U.K. Cheaper air fares than in the 1980s make it possible for graduates to audition and find jobs abroad if they can’t get a position in the U.K.

 

Doors have closed with the exit from EU; many companies can only take a limited number of overseas dancers, and getting a visa is not cheap or easy for the dancer or the company.  Documents need translating, our education system doesn't produce a high school certificate, full Accro needed etc etc ..

 

From the dancer's point of view "cheap" is a relative term - salaries may allow for a reasonable standard of living, but a ticket home can be more than a months rent and out of their reach.

 

Can I also suggest some dancers choose to work abroad rather than not being able to get a UK position?  The whole experience of living in a foreign country can be part of the attraction.

[taxi4ballet]

4 hours ago, dancefanatic said:

I'm sorry but have to butt in here.  Sadly, more and more companies in Europe are insisting that applicants possess EU passports and US rules around visas seem to vary company by company, even when in the same State, making it increasingly difficult for our lovely new graduates who only possess a British passport to even apply for jobs.  And yet graduates from around the world are able to be granted jobs and/or apprenticeships with British dance companies.  I know this goes off-topic but is increasingly a bug-bear of mine.  I personally would like all dancers, no matter their nationality, ethnicity or gender, to have equal opportunities globally than have what appear to be unfair restrictions placed on our UK dancers, particularly at the beginning of their careers.  So I personally disagree with the point raised here.

 

It has been a bugbear of mine for some time also. British dancers are prevented from getting jobs overseas, yet they can't get jobs at home either because dancers from other countries are not just welcomed here, but actively sought out.

 

And, as we can all see by the statistics, very few British dancers trained at British vocational schools actually make it all the way through their training anyway. They can't all be the wrong shape or not good enough.

 

There is something absolutely rotten at the core of vocational dance training in the UK.

[Beezie]

@taxi4ballet Not British, but after hearing all that is said here I completely agree with you.

 

Furthermore, there are a lot of references to foreign dancers being ‘hot housed.’  I don’t even think it is this.  I really think it is just the idea of a ‘shiny new’ student.  
 

There is an interesting study that shows that humans, when asked to chose between a known prize and a mystery prize, overwhelmingly chose the mystery prize.  Even when presented with enough information to assess that the mystery prize is likely of lesser value, they STILL choose the mystery prize.  It is the same driver that has people play the lottery over and over.  It has to be the same physiological profile that has Dance Schools continually choose the new and unknown students.

 

So maybe Dance Schools are just dupes for their own psychological weaknesses.  It also plays perfectly into the comments on here suggesting that many of these same schools/teachers don’t have the psychological where-with-all to provide a safe, competitive, and supportive environment for their students.  It really should cause some self-reflection by the schools, themselves.

[taxi4ballet]

Several years ago I watched a documentary about Usain Bolt. Much of it showed young Jamaican runners during their training, and the difference between that and what ballet students go through was jaw-dropping. They were continually told they were the best of the best, that they were amazing and their self-esteem was through the roof. That's how to train world-beaters. You tell them how great they are, and they respond to that positive encouragement, and genuinely believe they can achieve anything if they train hard enough and put their minds to it. Failure is not an option in their minds, and they go out and win.

[Beezie]

@taxi4ballet Exactly that!  Every sport is taught to cheer on their players.  If you are coming in last in a race, your whole team and coach will be cheering you on….because they know it takes talent and courage just to get to the point where you are standing at the starting line!  And you may still lose the race, but you feel supported until the very last AND personal accomplishment when you do your best.

 

I listen to my other child’s coaches.  Their dialogue and words.  Their dialogue isn’t their own personal invention….or if it is, they are missing a calling as a great orator.  Rather, I think they have spent a lot of schooling, thought, and collaboration to find those special words and phrases that push, motivate, and build-up children of that particular age.  It is very conscious, and I think they act with this partitioned personality where they only bring their best traits to the field.  (Granted, I know that isn’t every coach.)

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said:

Several years ago I watched a documentary about Usain Bolt. Much of it showed young Jamaican runners during their training, and the difference between that and what ballet students go through was jaw-dropping. They were continually told they were the best of the best, that they were amazing and their self-esteem was through the roof. That's how to train world-beaters. You tell them how great they are, and they respond to that positive encouragement, and genuinely believe they can achieve anything if they train hard enough and put their minds to it. Failure is not an option in their minds, and they go out and win.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

This is exactly it! 
And the more a student struggles the more help and positivity and motivation and nurture they need - not the other way about! Where did this distorted teaching come from?

I asked my dd if, in the year she was beaten down and crushed by the teacher, she had received any positive feedback at all. Any one single positive comment? My dd was very certain that in a whole years tuition(?) the teacher had not said one single positive word to her despite my dd taking the corrections (mostly humiliating) and working on them late into every night trying so very hard to please her.

No wonder, she felt  couldn’t take it anymore 

[Emeralds]

7 hours ago, dancefanatic said:

I'm sorry but have to butt in here.  Sadly, more and more companies in Europe are insisting that applicants possess EU passports and US rules around visas seem to vary company by company, even when in the same State, making it increasingly difficult for our lovely new graduates who only possess a British passport to even apply for jobs.  And yet graduates from around the world are able to be granted jobs and/or apprenticeships with British dance companies.  I know this goes off-topic but is increasingly a bug-bear of mine.  I personally would like all dancers, no matter their nationality, ethnicity or gender, to have equal opportunities globally than have what appear to be unfair restrictions placed on our UK dancers, particularly at the beginning of their careers.  So I personally disagree with the point raised here.

 

That’s a tad misleading, dancefanatic. I take it you’re a British citizen and might not be aware of the full picture. Guess which developed country has the most difficult, expensive and time consuming paperwork and fees for foreign artists and other prospective employees entering the country? The United Kingdom. I have work associates, friends and extended family who have experienced this first hand. Dancegoers who watched ENB from 2005 to 2015 might remember the debacle over Polina Semionova’s visa not being processed in time (she was a seasoned international guest star already and would not have put in her application at the last minute) so she couldn’t enter the country and it led to disappointed ticket holders not being able to see her.

 

The delays still continue to this day and there are dancers, musicians, singers etc being prevented or discouraged from performing here still because of these delays. There was even a case of an ambassador’s wife (of a peaceful nation with an uncomplicated background) who had her visa delayed despite it being a diplomat role so they should already know all about the couple to  process it quickly. (You couldn’t make it up, but it happens here!) Britain is unfortunately now notorious in other countries for being slow, expensive and stressful when it comes to visa and permit processing among all developed nations. The cost of British visas and permits are also among the most expensive in the world - no problem for a well paid  top soloist but often unaffordable for young or junior employees, unless a firm pays for it, which is why in many industries (including the NHS and education) Britain struggles to recruit enough skilled staff (locals don’t apply or are not suitably qualified, skilled international workers priced out and discouraged from applying). 

 

Although it may feel like there are an awful lot of foreign students and dancers who have taken places in British companies and vocational schools, these are just the ones who are persistent enough to go through the visa application process and whose families can afford to pay for the paperwork, or who are offered a generous scholarship (eg winning one at YAGP, or Prix de Lausanne, from charities, or from the school itself) so that they can use their savings on paperwork and other living costs. 

 

British graduates, dancers and other artists were protected from this for a long time because of Britain being in the EU, so they could rock up to any EU country to work as easily as stepping off a train into another British city and not think too much about the visa and work permit delays, fees and stress that non-EU nationals endure every time they applied to work in Britain.

 

Then Brexit came. Thanks to all Leave voters, British dancers and other artists, new graduates and everyone else who wished to or had to work in the EU, found out  first hand what many other nationals endured for years. 

 

It isn’t a conspiracy or unfair policy from other nations targeting only British citizens- the restrictions came about as a result of Britain’s own restrictive foreign labour policies. It wouldn’t be feasible in international law for nation A to restrict nation B while nation A enjoyed unrestricted movement in and out of nation B. The rules simply don’t work like that.

 

So although it may feel like you’re on the receiving end of restricted access while other citizens seem to still get into Britain “with ease”, it simply is not correct. You’re only seeing the ones who have the tenacity and patience to put in the paperwork and wait, and who saved up to pay the high fees.  

 

Many international dance companies still employ British citizens following Brexit (Norwegian National Ballet and various German companies spring to mind but there are others). Where they can,they support visa/work permit applications from British citizens  in the same way they do other applicants from outside their country. Obviously smaller companies or busy ensembles may have fewer staff or less time to assist. Apart from wishing, you’re more likely to bring about change by writing or starting a petition to the Home Secretary to lower costs (for too long the government has used visa and permit fees as a lucrative income source rather than to invest in more efficient service) and speed up processing delays for all, so that other nations can reciprocate.

 

In the meantime, parents and students should not be unduly frightened off applying abroad - research the companies online (don’t forget English speaking companies, small as well as large, in the Commonwealth nations which often still admire British training), and enquire about video auditions, online applications and support with visa paperwork. Quite often there are many applicants in the same boat, and if they have the resources, the companies will support  those talented enough to be hired. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Emeralds

[TYR]

8 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

Several years ago I watched a documentary about Usain Bolt. Much of it showed young Jamaican runners during their training, and the difference between that and what ballet students go through was jaw-dropping. They were continually told they were the best of the best, that they were amazing and their self-esteem was through the roof. That's how to train world-beaters. You tell them how great they are, and they respond to that positive encouragement, and genuinely believe they can achieve anything if they train hard enough and put their minds to it. Failure is not an option in their minds, and they go out and win.

 

A couple of years ago I switched teams at work from one that was managed in the UK to one that was managed from the US, and the difference was really stark. We tend to enjoy making fun of Americans being either earnest or smiley or gung ho or all three, but just a bit of positivity and some vague idea that what I do was appreciated and important to somebody was frankly a huge improvement.

[Colman]

5 hours ago, TYR said:

A couple of years ago I switched teams at work from one that was managed in the UK to one that was managed from the US, and the difference was really stark

There are a good number of economists who are willing to blame out of date rubbish management practices for a lot of the UK’s terrible productivity figures, 

[Anna C]

On 19/09/2023 at 14:18, LukeJennings said:

Can things change at the schools? Will they?

My thoughts on the wider implications of all this:

 

https://thirdcast.wordpress.com/2023/09/19/if-i-had-a-knife/

 

Thank you, @LukeJennings for another excellent and thought provoking article.  Two points stood out in particular - the need for a “top down” approach, with Company Directors working in tandem with School Principals, and secondly, one of the commenter’s remarks on YAGP and other competitions.

 

With regard to the former, I see this as a top down AND bottom up problem.  For instance, Upper and Lower Schools (RBS/White Lodge in particular) need to start communicating properly, and ensuring that the training and selection at lower school level is producing students good enough to have a decent chance of getting into Upper School/6th form.  There might be *some* excuse for this communication to be lacking where the Lower School AD and the Upper School AD are different people, but when these posts are held by one person, there is none.

 

Then, if a student makes it from year 11 into year 12 of the same school, how can there be ANY reason for a teacher to criticise a student’s physique within the first week?  I cannot find an excuse for this.  Even if the student has put on a few pounds from resting during the summer holidays, they will not take long to get back to their usual working body.  I’m still absolutely gobsmacked at that “If I had a knife” comment.

 

You’re right about the gamble of taking 11 year olds into training (especially the “arched feet” issue - bone structure cannot be altered, “banana feet” are often much more prone to injury, and feet themselves can not only be strengthened, but their look can change when a student starts pointe work.  In the Principal and First Soloist ranks at Royal, there are a wide range of not only feet - some “banana”, some not at all, but also body types, bust sizes, and so on.  And long may that diversity of physique last.

 

So is it - at Royal, say - that Kevin O’Hare needs to change what he’s looking for?  Perhaps not.  Perhaps the problem is more “bottom up”, at RBS in particular.  Should White Lodge do away with years 7-9, and only offer training for Years 10 and 11?  
 

Should the AD of the school pay more close attention to Lower School selection, and to the training at that level, so we don’t have any more years where only 1 or 2 (or no) British trained girls get into Upper School?  
 

And finally, talking of competitions, should it be acceptable for students to be assessed out (or “asked nicely” to leave, before graduation) after 1 or 2 years of a 3 year course, only for a competition winner trained elsewhere to take their place?  Being assessed out before the beginning or end of grad year isn’t only an RBS problem, of course; it seems to be common practice at many schools, but the “won a competition, spent a year at Upper School and then have “trained at Royal Ballet School” on your bio” is not unheard of.  
We all have varying opinions on ballet competitions; maybe there’s a place for them, but does a teenager’s ability to get through a flashy variation necessarily mean anything in the long run?  Will they develop superb acting skills, or be a wonderful partner in pas de deux work?  Can ADs judge that from one or two variations, and assess someone else out, that they’ve trained for several years, on the basis that they are a great turner, or impressive ballon, or extremely bendy feet?  Why is that more desirable than a student with years of British training?  Isn’t it another gamble?

 

Apologies for the long, somewhat rambling post.  It’s great that Panorama and File on Four started this conversation, but if we’re to get a National inquiry similar to that of British Gymnastics, it would be great to keep the momentum going.  Body shaming is one (major) problem in ballet, but not only is there more to that issue that the programme didn’t have time to cover (photoshopping dancers’ bodies for adverts and in schools is a big one), but there are also other issues that need investigating if ballet training in the UK is ever going to change.

 

Perhaps the Panorama team are reading this thread - we can but hope.
 

 

 

[alison]

1 hour ago, Anna C said:

but the “won a competition, spent a year at Upper School and then have “trained at Royal Ballet School” on your bio” is not unheard of.  

 

Oh, Anna, I just had to snort when I read that (my bolding)!

 

If there was a giant "Like" option, I'd gladly give you one for this post.

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, alison said:

 

Oh, Anna, I just had to snort when I read that (my bolding)!

 

If there was a giant "Like" option, I'd gladly give you one for this post.

😂😂 Thank you!  I tried to play it safe with my wording. 

[Kerfuffle]

Brilliant post @Anna C. Maybe finally all the issues you’ve mentioned will be addressed. It’s about time! There really isn’t much escuse for the sorry state of things. 

[Emeralds]

3 hours ago, Anna C said:

the “won a competition, spent a year at Upper School and then have “trained at Royal Ballet School” on your bio” is not unheard of.

So true, Anna. I’m afraid it feels like more than a third of the RB (the proportion gets even higher when you look at soloist rank and above) has exactly that. A few even occasionally tried to hide in their bio that they had trained in their home country- not sure why; surely the quality of their local school is something to be proud of. 

 

It does feel like the RBS Upper School is starting to become a sort of holding bay or transit lounge for foreign trained prize winners or ambitious graduates from other nations  to gain a foothold or an advantage over other audition candidates hoping for a position in RB, BRB or ENB. I don’t blame the dancers at all for doing this- if they have the time and the money (and don’t want to get a job somewhere else to start earning) to do that, they’re only doing what the system enables them to do. Most are already polished solo performers and don’t need more school, other than perhaps more partnering practice if they (female) came from a school with very few/no advanced male students or if they (male) didn’t have many partnering classes in a bid to master their jumps, turns and other solo skills first.

 

But if the school wants to take on prize winners or advanced foreign students, they should be taking them on as extra students, not booting out their own students so that these newcomers can replace them. The question staring at us in the face needs to be voiced: “Is it just a scam to build up a pot of funds from school fees charged in junior years to parents of pupils, most of whom they have no intention of graduating, to fund an establishment where the final year graduands are predominantly finished products poached from other schools abroad and at home?” 

 

But then one has to ask what the point of having an expensively endowed and subsidised full boarding lower school and upper school is, when only about two or fewer WL alumni a year will make it into RB/BRB/ENB, and fewer than half who started at WL will finish with qualifications and training to get a job in other dance companies, especially if the school kicks them out (or as they euphemistically call it, “assesses them out”) before they’ve had a chance to finish the syllabus at 18 and prove themselves at auditions. That’s an appalling success rate - the music boarding schools, who also train children for a similarly competitive or even more competitive profession (orchestra musicians retire much later than ballet dancers and are allowed to hold two or three jobs at a time, so there isn’t as much turnover for job vacancies, and the job market for solo performers is very, very tight), don’t have such terrible rates.  

 

If any state school had such bad graduation rates, they would be investigated and under special measures, eg the principal would be replaced, as well as some other staff. And for private schools, there would be similar investigations and intervention by the Department of Education. How are RBS and similar vocational schools allowed to continue operating and collecting fees and taxpayer subsidy when they are clearly failing a majority of their pupils? Most of all, they can no longer claim to be “one of the best ballet schools in the world” when they only trained a handful (or fewer) of the graduating year right from junior school. Even poorly funded and overcrowded comprehensive schools teaching many pupils with difficulties and learning challenges have a better success rate than that. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Emeralds

[Pas de Quatre]

It seems that RBS is taking itself so far from its historical purpose, perhaps it should be assessed out! 

[Ondine]

While clearly something isn't working as we would hope,  I think we need to look at the actual numbers of prizewinners given places each year before pointing fingers and laying too much blame on them.

 

Also, it may be worth investigating how those are funded. 

 

And there are very highly regarded company members who were finalists and winners in competitions. I think we'd be sad if they were elsewhere!

 

It's also worth looking at the final destinations of those who graduate from RBS Upper School. A number have gone to 'junior' companies. Not finished soloists at all.  At least this year everyone did move into a contract.

 

(A couple of the Aud Jebson  apprentices appear to have vanished after their year last year... not taken into the RB, and not moved elsewhere, as far as I can tell, but that's a separate issue.)

 

It's none of it simple and none of it easy to resolve.

 

All those problems though are not to do with bullying & body shaming really.

 

 

 

 

[Millicent]

Is it not the same thing though? If the AD has a particular look in mind so anyone who doesn't measure up gets "assessed out" then isn't the whole ethos to blame for the problems lower down the school? If the company/Upper School/Y10 progression only happens if you have a certain look then isn't this potentially one of the major underlying reasons for body shaming? 

 

It is generally accepted that in a company/business in the commercial world the working culture and ethos comes from the top. Even if its unspoken it can be made very clear in other ways. 

[LinMM]

Not RBS but I’ve heard a positive thing about ENBS and that is that the new Director Aaron Watkin wants to have close connections to the school which apparently Tamara Rojo did not really have. 
So if that turns out to be true a step in the right direction. 

[Ondine]

I'm not sure that the Royal Ballet has a 'look' though.

 

A quick mental runthrough of its dancers, male and female, from top rank to trainees, makes me think it doesn't, really.

 

Yes all dancers need to have certain attributes, but this isn't a company that demands all look the same?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Ondine

[Colman]

1 hour ago, Millicent said:

It is generally accepted that in a company/business in the commercial world the working culture and ethos comes from the top

My remark about productivity and outdated U.K. management practices wasn’t off topic.

[Kerfuffle]

52 minutes ago, Ondine said:

I'm not sure that the Royal Ballet has a 'look' though.

 

A quick mental runthrough of its dancers, male and female, from top rank to trainees, makes me think it doesn't, really.

 

Yes all dancers need to have certain attributes, but this isn't a company that demands all look the same?

 

 

 

 

I don’t think their upper school has a look either. The only similarities seem to be in year 7 and JAs - that is when you see the same build/proportions. By year 10 they look much more varied - maybe because this is the age where the international students become a majority and are often YAGP winners. 

[Ondine]

1 minute ago, Kerfuffle said:

are often YAGP winners. 

 

I'd be interested to know how many are taken each year who are YAGP  finalists / winners.

 

Also, of course, YAGP is a good test of tenacity as well as talent, and it isn't all based on one solo at the end?

 

I doubt that talented home grown students are actually cynically booted out on some pretext or another in order to have an influx of competition winners.

 

But what is obvious is that admission to White Lodge isn't all it could be, if the majority of the intake is 'assessed out' after not too long. I can't think it's simply a money making scheme.

 

Though of course there is no predicting with total accuracy how children will grow and develop, or how much progress they will make.  It's none of it simple or easy, especially for those who don't make it through. 

 

Not only are many dreams being shattered, educations are disrupted and friendships broken up. Beginning again at another school must be so difficult.

 

Yet continuing on, increasingly struggling,  would have challenges too.