Multiple Summer Intensives

[BalletGirlAndBoy]

I have a question (which I hope is not a silly one!) about summer intensives. My DD is 10 and has attended two summer intensives this year - one as a day student for 3 days and the other for 5 days residential. While doing these, she has met a lot of children her age or slightly older (11/ 12) who have spent their whole summers going from one residential to another. Some students have come from abroad and have done a tour of European intensives. Others are based in the UK and have gone to at least four, going from one to another and just popping home to wash leotards. Does anyone have any insight into whether this is 'normal' and standard practice for those wishing to dance at a high level? How do people afford it?! Don't they need a rest? This is not intended to be judgemental in any way, I'm just curious as a parent of a DD who is starting to get more serious about her ballet but certainly won't be going to vocational school for year 7. I'm concerned that there will be a big gap created between what my DD can do and what others her age are achieving given this high volume of training. 

 

Any thoughts welcome! 

[balletbean]

38 minutes ago, BalletGirlAndBoy said:

I have a question (which I hope is not a silly one!) about summer intensives. My DD is 10 and has attended two summer intensives this year - one as a day student for 3 days and the other for 5 days residential. While doing these, she has met a lot of children her age or slightly older (11/ 12) who have spent their whole summers going from one residential to another. Some students have come from abroad and have done a tour of European intensives. Others are based in the UK and have gone to at least four, going from one to another and just popping home to wash leotards. Does anyone have any insight into whether this is 'normal' and standard practice for those wishing to dance at a high level? How do people afford it?! Don't they need a rest? This is not intended to be judgemental in any way, I'm just curious as a parent of a DD who is starting to get more serious about her ballet but certainly won't be going to vocational school for year 7. I'm concerned that there will be a big gap created between what my DD can do and what others her age are achieving given this high volume of training. 

 

Any thoughts welcome! 

Hi, there is never a silly question, happy to offer a response from my experience.
 I don’t think there is hard and fast rule on summer intensives or even any research competed on the outcome of children that attend back to back courses every summer and their success professionally further down the line. My DD attended her first 5 day course the summer she turned 14 (July birthday). Second two courses were the following summer, when she had just turned 15, we applied to two well known schools never thinking she would be offered both. When the offers were received fortunately the dates didn’t clash. Two weeks first then one week off then another week, that summer led nicely into the autumn that she was auditioning for a full time place. In answer to your question about costs, goodness knows, we were fortunate that the local arts trust provided sponsorship for my DD to attend the summer courses.  Something I would recommend anyone to research in their respective areas especially when they are on the cusp of seeking full time vocational training. 

Whilst the summer intensives are obviously a great way to boost and enhance the child’s training I do believe that they are still no substitute for regular sustained training the rest of the academic yr.  

Good Luck and as I always say, by all means ask those not so silly questions, listen to others but at the end of the day be true to yourself, make those decisions (sometimes easy sometimes hard one) that are best for you, your DD and your family as a whole.  

[Neverdancedjustamum]

1 hour ago, BalletGirlAndBoy said:

I have a question (which I hope is not a silly one!) about summer intensives. My DD is 10 and has attended two summer intensives this year - one as a day student for 3 days and the other for 5 days residential. While doing these, she has met a lot of children her age or slightly older (11/ 12) who have spent their whole summers going from one residential to another. Some students have come from abroad and have done a tour of European intensives. Others are based in the UK and have gone to at least four, going from one to another and just popping home to wash leotards. Does anyone have any insight into whether this is 'normal' and standard practice for those wishing to dance at a high level? How do people afford it?! Don't they need a rest? This is not intended to be judgemental in any way, I'm just curious as a parent of a DD who is starting to get more serious about her ballet but certainly won't be going to vocational school for year 7. I'm concerned that there will be a big gap created between what my DD can do and what others her age are achieving given this high volume of training. 

 

Any thoughts welcome! 

Sadly, I would say this is probably normal in certain specific demographic. Increasingly I think some DCs and parents these days feel the need to make sure summers are packed with as much training as possible, even though the general advice is, I assume especially for those in full time vocational schools, is that it is extremely important for DCs to get some rest over the summer. However, like you, I did notice that a lot of DCs these days go from one SI to another with some only getting maybe a maximum of a week rest (and I bet there will still be some stretching or conditioning involved within that time rather than complete rest). Sadly, I think a bit part of this is the desire and need to keep up but also the fact that places in vocational schools are like gold dust hence students feel the need to make sure they are getting as much training as possible so they don’t fall behind their peers. I also don’t know how people can afford them. It’s only this year that my DD did more than one SI, but only after about 3 years of not doing any. We only ever really considered multiple SIs this year because she received funding for one and her grandparents paid for the accommodation of the other. Otherwise I would have felt too guilty spending too much money on just one child.

 

Whilst the SIs are a fun experience and gives a good gauge of where your DC is at, I doubt they take anything long lasting from them. They’re good for networking and meeting new mates. A lot of DCs who attend these SIs already know each other and understandably those who go to the same school tend to stick together. 

[margarite]

I’ve always thought that a max of two week-long intensives was enough in the summer, with four weeks to rest, meet friends, spend time with family, do other hobbies, holidays etc. DD is 15 and just finished year 11 vocational school. She generally does two weeks of intensives, some residential, some not with a bit of self practise and stretching at home, and now she’s older, the odd open class at Danceworks etc. She always has around two weeks where she completely rests and does nothing at all, which I think is healthy. She would not be happy if she didn’t get her switch off time - come the last week of August she’s rested and raring to go! We viewed intensives as a useful way to view potential schools for 16+. And don’t worry about your daughter being left behind, I know DC who have gained 16+ places without doing 11+ vocational or multiple summer schools.

[Dancemum23]

Really helpful question, thank you! My dd is the same age and her dance teacher only made me aware of/suggested the summer intensives this year. Her teacher’s opinion was that they are good for younger children planning on vocational training at a young age but otherwise something to think about when she’s a bit older (11+). I’m looking into them for next year but she won’t be doing them all summer. 

[BalletGirlAndBoy]

Thank you all for your replies. It is very reassuring to hear that a couple of intensives (or one, or none at all) can be enough. I'm finding it very difficult to know what the right decisions are at the moment (and to decide what is financially viable) so it is great to hear opinions from others who have more experience than I do. 

 

@balletbean Thank you for your comment that there is never a silly question. I sometimes feel like I'm going mad with all the questions and uncertainty I have! 

 

My DD is lucky to have a good local school that offers lots of hours of quality training, so I'll try to relax a bit about all the other stuff I see around us and just let her get on with working hard and enjoying her dancing. 

[MissEmily]

The Elmhurst Year 7s were told an absolute maximum of three weeks of dancing over the summer holidays. They then have a Zoom conditioning programme for the last two weeks of the holidays for an hour every other weekday. My (ex-)pupil, her family and I have collectively opted for, on average, one private lesson per week with excellent teachers with two weeks completely off instead of an intensive this year, as we felt it was a more beneficial use of finances for her at this stage. She makes a note of the corrections she’s been given after each lesson and works on them in her own time between classes. 
 

Whilst doing back-to-back intensives is understandably the dream for many young dancers, it is not achievable for all, and I doubt those children really benefit from each teacher’s tips, corrections and lessons as there is no time for reflection and self-practice, and the insight gained from each class must immediately be eclipsed by the next. 
 

So, in short, @BalletGirlAndBoy don’t panic. Quality over quantity every time, and rest and reflection are of equal importance.

[glowlight]

As with anything in the crazy ballet world, you have to decide what is right for you and your family. What works for one child won't work for another, and you should never feel that you should stretch yourself beyond what you can afford for the sake of a summer intensive.

 

For working parents, summer intensives can provide an excellent form of child care!  Maybe that's another reason why it works well for some families, but I do think that having a complete rest is important, especially if they are training intensively during term time. I think many companies have summer shutdowns to allow the dancers to rest and recover.

 

During her teens my DD regularly did a 2 week summer intensive at Northern Ballet at the start of the summer, and sometimes another shorter one at the end of the holidays to get back in the swing of things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Emma northmore]

As mentioned above, its different for everyone. However, I would advise just 2 quality courses and a good 3 weeks rest followed by a return to dance at the end of Aug either by way of 121, PBT, Conditioning or carefully planned classes - back to the barre, back to ballet( Ballet Boost), YBSS ballet bootcamp style etc .

With growing bodies and the impact of Ballet- there might be a short term gain on return to classes in Sept but there is no long term gain by dancing all summer. Only the higher probability of stress fractures, injuries, confusion from multiple technical input and exhaustion. They will fall in  to Sept strong but with no extra fuel in the tank. The experience can be fun and many love it but there is certainly no necessity and it doesn't really make any difference to school entry audition either.

They need the rest to really focus and improve from their regular training. Growing to full height and being healthy are all equally important to success.😀 As is maintaining sanity in this crazy ballet world!😉

[Kate_N]

I’m so pleased the expert teachers on this thread have mentioned injuries. That was my first thought on reading about 10 or 11 year olds doing a whole summer of intensive training. Physical and mental burnout is a risk with these kinds of schedules.

[Pas de Quatre]

It is not only at summer schools, during term-time some dancers do too much with classes all week and then even more on Saturdays and Sundays. At least one day should a rest to let the body recover.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

31 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

It is not only at summer schools, during term-time some dancers do too much with classes all week and then even more on Saturdays and Sundays. At least one day should a rest to let the body recover.

Sadly, this is becoming more and more the case with young dancers we know. Some as young as 10/11 yo. 7 days a week of dance with no rest day, then intensive courses and masterclasses every school break.  I believe a big part of it is feeling the need to be on top form for auditions, the fear of peers doing more than them and for those already in full time schools, the desire to stay in the programme. I can imagine it feels like it never ends.  I guess it depends on their dreams and ambitions. My DD would personally go nuts if she had no rest day. As it is, she strictly spends the week focused on being a teenager and student (in a non-voc school) then weekends are for dancing - technically probably too many ‘rest days’ (5) 😂  It works well for her but then she has no immediate ambitions in relation to dance (that she tells me about anyway).

[The red shoes]

This is a tricky one … but at our vocational school we were told no more than two weeks, rest MUST be included and then a conditioning programme set by the school. I happen to agree with this and don’t think it’s wise doing endless back to back intensives. The body needs rest to grow plus most growth spurts occur during these summer breaks so again puts unnecessary risk on the body .  Also you risk burn out from an already packed summer term going into multiple courses. 
Yes these courses are enriching, you learn, you make new friends etc but can’t replace daily class/ conditioning . 
it’s finding the balance. Please don’t feel under pressure to follow the crowd as each child’s body is individual. Some really great advice on here 

[WhatsThePointe]

It's so difficult but you have to try not to get sucked into trying to "keep up" with what others are doing. Rest is very important and also I think the holidays are a perfect time to explore other skills. My DD has just spent a couple of weeks working on a full scale musical. No ballet to be seen, but she's keeping up her fitness and flexibility doing something a bit different. Of course for some ballet dancers this wouldn't appeal at all, so it really is what suits each individual. But family time and rest should always feature. 

[Birdy]

In the US, summer breaks are really long. At my DD’s former school, final performances were at the end of May and classes didn’t start up again until early September. Dancers didn’t want to take three months off, so the parents ended up spending absurd amounts of money to send their kids to summer intensives. Even kids who did one 5-week program ended up supplementing with a lot of drop-in classes. The longest summer intensive my DD ever attended was 3 weeks, despite her teachers telling her it wouldn’t be enough. She was accepted into a 2-year Associate’s Degree program in Europe last year, so for the first summer ever she has a shorter break and has just been doing drop-in classes occasionally to stay in shape. I often think that it is fortunate that we didn’t have unlimited funds to spend on ballet or else I might have given in to the pressure to pack my daughter’s summer with intensives. As it is she has made it to 18 without injury or getting burned out.

[BattementBatty]

On 19/08/2023 at 07:59, Emma northmore said:

As mentioned above, its different for everyone. However, I would advise just 2 quality courses and a good 3 weeks rest followed by a return to dance at the end of Aug either by way of 121, PBT, Conditioning or carefully planned classes - back to the barre, back to ballet( Ballet Boost), YBSS ballet bootcamp style etc .

With growing bodies and the impact of Ballet- there might be a short term gain on return to classes in Sept but there is no long term gain by dancing all summer. Only the higher probability of stress fractures, injuries, confusion from multiple technical input and exhaustion. They will fall in  to Sept strong but with no extra fuel in the tank. The experience can be fun and many love it but there is certainly no necessity and it doesn't really make any difference to school entry audition either.

They need the rest to really focus and improve from their regular training. Growing to full height and being healthy are all equally important to success.😀 As is maintaining sanity in this crazy ballet world!😉

This is very reassuring,  my DD (non vocational and going into year 10), has followed with interested and slight apprehension as many of her peers have jetted off to many different international and uk intensives over the summer break some starting before normal school really finished and fitting in 4 or 5 different schools.  Financially, it is out of our reach and must be out of most people's reach!  My daughter has done one week at YBSS and is doing Ballet Boost next week.  She has also had some privates and done some pilates classes.  I hope this is enough to ensure she is in a good position to return to class in September.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

40 minutes ago, BattementBatty said:

This is very reassuring,  my DD (non vocational and going into year 10), has followed with interested and slight apprehension as many of her peers have jetted off to many different international and uk intensives over the summer break some starting before normal school really finished and fitting in 4 or 5 different schools.  Financially, it is out of our reach and must be out of most people's reach!  My daughter has done one week at YBSS and is doing Ballet Boost next week.  She has also had some privates and done some pilates classes.  I hope this is enough to ensure she is in a good position to return to class in September.

I know what you mean, it’s like a European tour (and beyond!) from what we have seen of others. I often think I’m probably in the wrong job as there is no way I can afford multiple SIs either. Thankfully, my (non-voc) DD isn’t keen on this either as to her, summer is for total and complete rest. This summer is completely out of ordinary for us and she only agreed to do 3 weeks due to generous funding. On hindsight, it would have  been better to space them out, ie if doing two weeks, maybe one towards the beginning and one towards the end of summer. My DD would kill me if she had to miss even a day of school (never mind they don’t usually do much in the last few days!) so American ones for example, are out of the question because a lot of them start as early as June.  My DD enjoyed the intensives she attended but out of them, perhaps unsurprisingly, she enjoyed the ‘least known’ one the most.  Less of the usual ones she sees around the ballet scene all the time, less close groups, and so she got to know a lot of young dancers of varying ages.  She did enjoy a popular one I initially thought she wouldn’t (one where I’ve heard full time students and competition winners tend to stick together), but this is because she met some lovely international and U.K. young dancers who welcomed her and because she loved the food on offer (priorities!).  I think when choosing SIs, have a look at the usual demographic of dancers who attend. I think this makes a difference in the experience of a dancer, especially if your DC is non-vocational.  A couple of SIs with high level, quality teaching, classes that aren’t huge with a good mix of young dancers, a varied timetable - this is always a good combination for us. Where we can help it, we also tend to steer clear of very big class/group sizes or those that seem to focus on dancers from certain groups/schools (social media, although never the complete or accurate picture, can often show a glimpse or gauge of this).  Whilst this is normal and probably the case for a lot of the big name SIs, from conversations with fellow dance parents, this can impact a young dancer’s experience and confidence through the course.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[dancecrazy1]

I think if social media wasn't a huge part of these tiny dancers lives, the intensives wouldn't be a thing! I'm sure its being seen to attend them that is the real pull, not necessarily the taking part! I am quite shocked at the amount some children have done this summer, how on earth do families facilitate this, flying all over the world for ballet class just seems a bit ridiculous to me, maybe i'm cynical, or maybe these ballet girls have no siblings and their parents don't have to work?

[Neverdancedjustamum]

4 minutes ago, dancecrazy1 said:

I think if social media wasn't a huge part of these tiny dancers lives, the intensives wouldn't be a thing! I'm sure its being seen to attend them that is the real pull, not necessarily the taking part! I am quite shocked at the amount some children have done this summer, how on earth do families facilitate this, flying all over the world for ballet class just seems a bit ridiculous to me, maybe i'm cynical, or maybe these ballet girls have no siblings and their parents don't have to work?

It boggles the mind but maybe I’m in the wrong job. This year was the first year my DD attended an overseas SI (after not attending any U.K. or otherwise for years) and although we were only away for 6 days, the expense when added up is astounding (for me, anyway - I’m not used to spending this much on one kid alone). When you factor in flights, hotel, food... It’s crazy. I know it’s a cliche but on the train ride back home there was a person begging for coins and I literally felt guilty spending money on things that, on the grand scheme of things, aren’t really necessary. Don’t get me wrong, DD and I had a great time being away somewhere we’ve never been to before but I can’t even begin to contemplate doing multiple overseas SIs in one summer.  I missed the rest of the family too much as well. Perhaps it’s not much of a dent on the finances of other families but that’s not the case for us.  And indeed like you I’ve seen quite a few of these young dancers jetting around this summer.

[BalletGirlAndBoy]

2 hours ago, dancecrazy1 said:

I think if social media wasn't a huge part of these tiny dancers lives, the intensives wouldn't be a thing! I'm sure its being seen to attend them that is the real pull, not necessarily the taking part! I am quite shocked at the amount some children have done this summer, how on earth do families facilitate this, flying all over the world for ballet class just seems a bit ridiculous to me, maybe i'm cynical, or maybe these ballet girls have no siblings and their parents don't have to work?

I agree - social media does seem to play a big part in this. I am not really a social media user and my 10 year old DD is not allowed anywhere near it but, while looking at intensives this summer and who is going where, I have become aware of how many young people her age (or slightly older) have open Instagram accounts, where every arrival at every intensive is posted. The majority of these accounts seem to be parent managed but the whole thing baffles me. The poses taken in front of this school or that school or this famous monument etc etc must take so much time. I, too, must be in the wrong job, as I just can't figure out how people have the time (let alone the money) to do all of this. I am also wondering if it is now a 'thing' that young dancers should have an Instagram account? Does it have an impact on how they are viewed by schools/ intensives etc? My DD is pretty much 'hidden' in the dance world (her dance school doesn't do a lot of social media posting either) and I'm wondering if this will be a disadvantage to her as she gets older? 

[SylviaSylvie]

5 minutes ago, BalletGirlAndBoy said:

I agree - social media does seem to play a big part in this. I am not really a social media user and my 10 year old DD is not allowed anywhere near it but, while looking at intensives this summer and who is going where, I have become aware of how many young people her age (or slightly older) have open Instagram accounts, where every arrival at every intensive is posted. The majority of these accounts seem to be parent managed but the whole thing baffles me. The poses taken in front of this school or that school or this famous monument etc etc must take so much time. I, too, must be in the wrong job, as I just can't figure out how people have the time (let alone the money) to do all of this. I am also wondering if it is now a 'thing' that young dancers should have an Instagram account? Does it have an impact on how they are viewed by schools/ intensives etc? My DD is pretty much 'hidden' in the dance world (her dance school doesn't do a lot of social media posting either) and I'm wondering if this will be a disadvantage to her as she gets older? 

I agree with you all about social media playing a part.  So many people are doing it.  Your post resonated as I too wonder if I’m putting my child at a disadvantage by remaining hidden. You often see these accounts commenting on the various pages of schools and other opportunities within the dance world. 

Though I don’t think my child would consent to having an account set up, going by previous conversations, which is a relief in a way.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

24 minutes ago, BalletGirlAndBoy said:

I agree - social media does seem to play a big part in this. I am not really a social media user and my 10 year old DD is not allowed anywhere near it but, while looking at intensives this summer and who is going where, I have become aware of how many young people her age (or slightly older) have open Instagram accounts, where every arrival at every intensive is posted. The majority of these accounts seem to be parent managed but the whole thing baffles me. The poses taken in front of this school or that school or this famous monument etc etc must take so much time. I, too, must be in the wrong job, as I just can't figure out how people have the time (let alone the money) to do all of this. I am also wondering if it is now a 'thing' that young dancers should have an Instagram account? Does it have an impact on how they are viewed by schools/ intensives etc? My DD is pretty much 'hidden' in the dance world (her dance school doesn't do a lot of social media posting either) and I'm wondering if this will be a disadvantage to her as she gets older? 

Her dance school not being active on social media, for me personally, is a good thing. Over the years we have learned to steer clear of schools that are almost too active on social media, often featuring the same students over and over again. Either these schools have very few students, or they only feature a small number which to me is a red flag and is often indicative of possible issues behind the scenes. Social media is a tricky one, in the last few years I’ve seen her young dancers ramp up their posting as they are about to audition, often tagging schools. Instagram, for example, I believe cites 13 as the minimum age to create an account. A lot of young dancers, some as young as 7/8 years old, circumvent this by declaring to be ‘parent monitored’. This might be well and good for private accounts, but quite a few are public. As to whether it makes a difference in terms of getting offers for places, I’m not sure either. Some schools and teachers seem to think ADs have the time to scroll through social media to look at posts. On the other hand, I have seen very active social media users who repeatedly tag schools suddenly get offers to summer intensives. I guess we will never know, and it’s very much a personal choice. I must say that oddly enough, a good number of those who seem very brave in documenting everything they do, do seem to reap the rewards eventually. Coincidence? 

[SylviaSylvie]

On the subject of the intensives.  My daughter attended just one week at RBS this year, which was a lovely and valuable experience.  In addition to that she’s had a private lesson every fortnight.  At home she’s also doing conditioning exercises daily (or thereabouts ) and running through her grade a couple of times a week.

 

We could possibly have stretched to another intensive in the UK, but we didn’t think it would be particularly beneficial, nor did her teacher.  We couldn’t have afforded anything involving travel abroad (a summer intensive we looked at in the US, for example).

 

In terms of affording, there’s also a comparatively large number nowadays asking for people to make donations to fund their children’s training - places like GoFundMe.  I don’t know how successful they are in these money requests, but perhaps that’s another way some manage it.  Though it’s not something I would ever do, personally. 
 

I think a rest and recharge is needed as it’s the summer hols after all.  It will be busy enough from September ! 

 

 

[SylviaSylvie]

 

3 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Over the years we have learned to steer clear of schools that are almost too active on social media, often featuring the same students over and over again. Either these schools have very few students, or they only feature a small number which to me is a red flag and is often indicative of possible issues behind the scenes

Yes, we steered clear of such schools, and I think that often is the case about issues behind the scenes where only a tiny minority of the same pupils are featured, usually with local festival wins I think I recall. It was a ‘red flag’ for us when researching schools.
 

 

[Beezie]

Ugh, social media!  Worth its own thread.  I don’t know how any child can look at these ballet insta accounts and not feel awful about themselves.  And at the same time, there are also some really good technique and stretching videos.  ….but the ‘comparison-ing’ is my reason to keep my child off.  (You also notice how you rarely see the posters with perfect ballet feet or hyperextended legs actually in videos dancing?  It does make you wonder.  🤔. Perhaps photographing gorgeously and dancing gorgeously are different talents.  ….but try explaining that to a child viewer and they won’t get it.)

[Birdy]

My DD is 18 and posts nothing to her Instagram. When she got accepted to her European upper school the current students all tried to find her online to figure out who she was before she got there. The only internet presence they could find were articles about her dancing Clara in a company production when she was 11. Not actively posting on social media didn’t hurt her at auditions. She never attended a competition school. Neither her current school nor her previous school ever posted students’ names when their photos appeared on the school’s social media. I don’t know what kind of clout the students with super active social media accounts are chasing, but I don’t know that it’s particularly helpful to them in the long run.