EU companies salaries

[FlexyNexy]

Last year my DD has reluctantly hanged her pointe shoes for good since all employment offered was impossible to support her independent life and she would continuously have to rely on my financial support.

Since then, retrained and now fully independent, out of fun she has applied for some auditions just to see if anything has changed and sadly only been offered employment in EU companies for 800 Euros per month? Even Munich only offered 900? The highest salary she has seen was in Lisbon where she got 1200 Euros offer.

How are the dancers living from these salaries? I have paid more per month on her training when she was in full time dance school.

I guess, they do what they love, but isn’t this effort and strain on the body too much of a sacrifice for this “money”? Maybe we were really living in some sort of bubble remote from real world?
 

On a positive note, this time they offered something, and it was not dance for free in exchange for exposure as last year!

[Guest oncnp]

Not sure it's an apples-to-apples comparison (pretty sure it's not) but your post prompted me to look up what dancers at some UK companies may make

 

equity-annual-report-2021 (5).pdf

 

RB pg 43

ENB pg 44

Edited June 19, 2023 by oncnp

[Neverdancedjustamum]

26 minutes ago, oncnp said:

Not sure it's an apples-to-apples comparison (pretty sure it's not) but your post prompted me to look up what dancers at some UK companies may make

 

equity-annual-report-2021 (5).pdf

 

RB pg 43

ENB pg 44

Very interesting info! Thanks @oncnp Just curious as to why the Principals have no salary info for RB? It just says “NA”.  And for ENB there is no mention of Principals. Perhaps I’m just not looking in the right place and the info on principals is elsewhere in the report and not within the tables. 

[Guest oncnp]

8 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Very interesting info! Thanks @oncnp Just curious as to why the Principals have no salary info for RB? It just says “NA”.  And for ENB there is no mention of Principals. Perhaps I’m just not looking in the right place and the info on principals is elsewhere in the report and not within the tables. 

 

Just a guess here...they may not be covered by the Equity agreement and are under private contract. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by oncnp

[Jan McNulty]

10 minutes ago, oncnp said:

 

Just a guess here...they may not be covered by the Equity agreement and are under private contract. 

 

I believe I've read before that Principal salaries are by negotiation.

 

I would be interested in a comparison with Birmingham Royal, Northern and Scottish Ballets but I was going cross-eyed looking through the search results.

[Guest oncnp]

10 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I believe I've read before that Principal salaries are by negotiation.

 

I would be interested in a comparison with Birmingham Royal, Northern and Scottish Ballets but I was going cross-eyed looking through the search results.

 

I as well. I did a quick name search through the document, and there were no individual tables for those companies. 

 

And apparently the salaries listed are minimums, if I'm reading the page correctly. 

[dancefanatic]

All I can say is no wonder so many non-British dancers want to come to the UK to dance if the pay is that poor when starting out elsewhere

[bangorballetboy]

As I was having problems opening the annual report from @oncnp's post, I've attached the pdf.

equity-annual-report-2021 (1).pdf

[meadowblythe]

It's not just starting out!  

 

Speaking of Eastern Europe the salaries are low but so is the cost of living.  Manydancers in the companies are locals and either treat the ballet as a part time job working elsewhere (dance schools, related industries ie photography), or are second wage earners.

 

Hard news for the Brits is when they have to buy a flight  elsewhere!  Can eat up vast amounts of their monthly wage

[balletbean]

2 hours ago, bangorballetboy said:

As I was having problems opening the annual report from @oncnp's post, I've attached the pdf.

equity-annual-report-2021 (1).pdf 1.01 MB · 12 downloads

Thank you. Makes for some very interesting reading. Not a subject that’s talked about whilst the boys and girls are still at their respective vocational schools.  

[balletbean]

1 hour ago, meadowblythe said:

It's not just starting out!  

 

Speaking of Eastern Europe the salaries are low but so is the cost of living.  Manydancers in the companies are locals and either treat the ballet as a part time job working elsewhere (dance schools, related industries ie photography), or are second wage earners.

 

Hard news for the Brits is when they have to buy a flight  elsewhere!  Can eat up vast amounts of their monthly wage

During my DD’s recent audition/visa process we were very pleasantly surprised & grateful to be informed that once she was offered the contract they would reimburse her with all her expenses incurred to-date.  I realise now that this is not common occurrence but shows it is possible. 

[Beezie]

Yeah, I second the cost-of-living comment.  Some cities in Europe are surprisingly affordable.  If she is okay with 1-2 roommates, she may be able to make it work.  That said, she’ll still have to be quite frugal.

[Birdy]

A dancer at Dutch National Ballet just circulated a petition for higher pay for dancers. Amsterdam is not cheap, only two unrelated people are allowed to live in an apartment, and landlords are allowed to discriminate. Listings quite often state Not for Sharing, Couples or Families Only. Of course these same landlords tout their listings as being in close proximity to cultural institutions, but they wouldn’t deign to rent to the people actually producing the art.

[Dawnstar]

Among the RB salaries I find it interested that Principal Character Artists earn the same as First Soloists. I had assumed that the former would earn more than the latter. Although I suppose that those who also have coaching/staging jobs might get paid more.

 

I was also having a look at the opera companies' pay & the WNO chorus contracts look rather depressing: only a £2000 difference covers 6 grades of pay ranging from under 2 years of service to over 15 years. That doesn't seem much of a pay rise for putting in that many years with a company.

 

(Sorry, comment not that relevant to young dancers. I was thinking this was in the general discussion section rather than the Doing Dance one.)

Edited June 19, 2023 by Dawnstar
Added final paragraph.

[Peanut68]

Would recommend young dancers plan to get a second trade going alongside dancing…. Plumbing/electrics/bricklaying

Woeful isn’t it? 

[Millicent]

And think of how much parents will have paid for 7 years of vocational school, for example! 

[Peanut68]

Trying hard NOT to tally it up….😳

[Kerfuffle]

1 hour ago, Dawnstar said:

Among the RB salaries I find it interested that Principal Character Artists earn the same as First Soloists. I had assumed that the former would earn more than the latter. Although I suppose that those who also have coaching/staging jobs might get paid more.

 

I was also having a look at the opera companies' pay & the WNO chorus contracts look rather depressing: only a £2000 difference covers 6 grades of pay ranging from under 2 years of service to over 15 years. That doesn't seem much of a pay rise for putting in that many years with a company.

 

(Sorry, comment not that relevant to young dancers. I was thinking this was in the general discussion section rather than the Doing Dance one.)

I think the main difference is that the principal characters in opera are employed as free lancers so are likely to be paid considerably better than principal ballerinas. The chorus is more like a corps. 

[Beezie]

At the end of the day, I think ballet barely pays a living wage in most countries and even in the best companies.  In the US, the most corp members can hope for is a subsidized dorm room (similar to college), small monthly subsidy, pointe shoes….and hopefully several years of fabulous memories.  Even if you make principle, you are barely at a comfortable wage.  (It may seem high for Europe, but remember that US workers should probably be saving the delta for retirement.)

 

Always good to remind all aspiring dancers that they need ballet and ‘something else’ as a career choice.  It’s a sad truth.  
 

The chances are probably the same as becoming a pro sports player.  However, a pro sports player ends up with several years of a quite lucrative salary.  Life’s not fair.

[FlexyNexy]

8 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Trying hard NOT to tally it up….😳

Easy for a deposit on a house or flat.

[Guest oncnp]

sort of related (although I think it's over ongoing pension reform) the POB is back out on strike. 

 

Message to spectators of L'Histoire de Manon on Tuesday 20th June at the Palais Garnier - Opéra national de Paris (operadeparis.fr)

[Kerfuffle]

I keep being told that good  unis are impressed by ex dancers. If you have a diploma or degree from a top dance school is it well respected and easy to get more qualifications in a related area? (I’m thinking of arts / humanities - I know that science might require specific a levels). 
 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

7 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

I keep being told that good  unis are impressed by ex dancers. If you have a diploma or degree from a top dance school is it well respected and easy to get more qualifications in a related area? (I’m thinking of arts / humanities - I know that science might require specific a levels). 
 

I think it would depend on which unis. If I were to guess, ex dancers would also be subject to the same basic entry criteria as other applicants (unless the unis have a special entry criteria for their arts programmes). Where I imagine it would come into play would be during interviews or when admissions panels look at the overall profile of the applicant. It would also be dependent on the programme/course they are applying for. I can say from experience that for unis with hundreds of applicants vying for a place, there will be a good number of applicants who would have ‘special somethings’ in their application, whether this be playing sport at county or national level or being exemplary in music for example. Some unis would only interview shortlisted applicants. My DD and I’s favourite example of an ex-dancer who successfully transitioned to a top university is former RB dancer Beatriz Stix-Brunell who is now a student at Stanford University in the US (undertaking studies not related to arts or performance I think).

[Pas de Quatre]

Are we talking about dancers who haven't become professionals applying to Uni alongside others of the same age group. Or are we talking about older dancers looking for a second career? There are different entry requirements for "mature" students.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

7 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Are we talking about dancers who haven't become professionals applying to Uni alongside others of the same age group. Or are we talking about older dancers looking for a second career? There are different entry requirements for "mature" students.

Some universities automatically categorise applicants 21 or older as ‘mature applicants’ (which, for someone my age, makes me feel absolutely ancient). Also depending on which university, the application procedure would be the same as for other students and would still require meeting standard formal entry criteria. I do know some universities take into account work/industry experience in lieu of certain formal requirements, but some would require evidence of academic qualifications completed within x number of years. 

[Kerfuffle]

We love Beatrix Stix- Brunell’s journey too! She was a fab ballerina and is still young enough to thrive academically too - inspiring stuff! 

I guess anyone leaving graduation year from upper school in U.K. would be about 20 so almost a  mature student! 
It’s easy to feel  worried about our DC’s futures in the arts but I’d hope that with good GCSEs (fingers crossed) and a well respected school on her CV as well as a level 5 diploma my DD  will have some options open still. 

[Peanut68]

7 hours ago, FlexyNexy said:

Easy for a deposit on a house or flat.

Probs enough for an actual flat in some countries 😂😬

[Kerfuffle]

Are you talking about vocational training ? I don’t think we’ve spent anything near that but maybe we have been lucky ! 

[Peanut68]

Well….even if benefitting from scholarships & MDS funding (which we very fortunately have) I’d say add up all the prior to vocational training/extra holiday courses/masterclasses/exam fees/additional dance kit/pointe shoes & then the travel & hotel costs to get to & from schools/courses….not to mention costs like show tickets, kennel costs for dog tk enable family to get to said shows….. I sometimes do rather envy the ‘family across the road’ who had kids who did no extra activities beyond Sunday swim lessons with mine when aged 5-8!! 
Well…. Guess I made my bed….!! Also think loss of potential earnings for the hours spent driving said places…..

Herein madness lies so I’ll stop now!! 

[Peanut68]

6 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Are you talking about vocational training ? I don’t think we’ve spent anything near that but maybe we have been lucky ! 

Also, am I right judging from posts that your DC is yet to embark on Upper School? It defo gets more expensive the older they get IMHO…. 
I forgot to add in the costs that the feeling of sense of guilt that they are away from home gif so long also means you just cough up when maybe you’d not normally? Like saying yes to clothes/money to see friends/money for food/coffees out…. & the fact that they are not likely earning money of their own working in for example cafes at weekends from age 14 or so if at vocational school….

Now thinking a studio flat on outskirts of London could’ve been achieved!!! Ha ha ha!!! 
Would I change things???? Certain things, yes. Do I resent it? Certain people/places yes. Do I regret it all? No. 
You only get one life to live & as my dear Pops used to say ‘You’re a long time dead’ !! 
Just wish we could drag the arts out of this crazy outdated world of philanthropy & government funding & elitist ‘rich family’ self funding norm & actually get to a world where a dancer is as well remunerated as a plumber as seen as an essential part of society!! 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

35 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Well….even if benefitting from scholarships & MDS funding (which we very fortunately have) I’d say add up all the prior to vocational training/extra holiday courses/masterclasses/exam fees/additional dance kit/pointe shoes & then the travel & hotel costs to get to & from schools/courses….not to mention costs like show tickets, kennel costs for dog tk enable family to get to said shows….. I sometimes do rather envy the ‘family across the road’ who had kids who did no extra activities beyond Sunday swim lessons with mine when aged 5-8!! 
Well…. Guess I made my bed….!! Also think loss of potential earnings for the hours spent driving said places…..

Herein madness lies so I’ll stop now!! 

Ahaha! Love the mention of the ‘family across the road’ - I think we all have one of these! 😂 It’s the weekends that kill me and I can’t believe I’m even complaining about this since my DD doesn’t do much at all, no classes within the week so nowhere near the time and finance commitment of others. Whenever I start complaining about the expense and travel of our term time Saturdays, the mums of my DD’s school mates do remind me that it’s not too bad at all. One of DD’s friends swim for county (5am starts during the week for training!) and one plays cricket for county (between two siblings the mum and dad are out every day of the week after school for their training).  I guess with ballet and dance in general, for me, it’s mostly the expense. Non-dancing friends can’t believe I’m going with DD overseas for a week for what they call “summer school”.  To them, that’s madness. 

[balletbean]

29 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Also, am I right judging from posts that your DC is yet to embark on Upper School? It defo gets more expensive the older they get IMHO…. 
I forgot to add in the costs that the feeling of sense of guilt that they are away from home gif so long also means you just cough up when maybe you’d not normally? Like saying yes to clothes/money to see friends/money for food/coffees out…. & the fact that they are not likely earning money of their own working in for example cafes at weekends from age 14 or so if at vocational school….

Now thinking a studio flat on outskirts of London could’ve been achieved!!! Ha ha ha!!! 
Would I change things???? Certain things, yes. Do I resent it? Certain people/places yes. Do I regret it all? No. 
You only get one life to live & as my dear Pops used to say ‘You’re a long time dead’ !! 
Just wish we could drag the arts out of this crazy outdated world of philanthropy & government funding & elitist ‘rich family’ self funding norm & actually get to a world where a dancer is as well remunerated as a plumber as seen as an essential part of society!! 

Training is one cost but then our darlings embark on a professional career which takes them overseas our expenses don’t stop. No quick road trip or letting the train take the strain so we can watch them perform.   Serious £££ are spent so we can watch them perform & living their best life. I’m sure none of us would have it any other way just hope the Bank Manager feels the same ☺️

[Kerfuffle]

Yes you are right, Peanut 68  we’re about to embark on vocational costs for the first time - and I think we have been very lucky to be in this position. She only got really serious about ballet at about 13.   We missed out on DaDa  because we were slightly over the threshold so this year is going to be particularly expensive for us but there is no way we could have denied her this opportunity! I’m hoping it will bear fruit and she’ll thrive whatever happens - at least she will have given it a go! I agree with your Pops 🤗!