EU companies salaries

[balletbean]

31 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Yes you are right, Peanut 68  we’re about to embark on vocational costs for the first time - and I think we have been very lucky to be in this position. She only got really serious about ballet at about 13.   We missed out on DaDa  because we were slightly over the threshold so this year is going to be particularly expensive for us but there is no way we could have denied her this opportunity! I’m hoping it will bear fruit and she’ll thrive whatever happens - at least she will have given it a go! I agree with your Pops 🤗! 
 

 

Best wishes & good luck to your DD on the next exciting chapter of her dance training ☺️

[Kerfuffle]

2 minutes ago, balletbean said:

Best wishes & good luck to your DD on the next exciting chapter of her dance training ☺️

Thank you Ballet Bean! I am so looking forward to seeing where it takes her! 😀

[balletbean]

14 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Thank you Ballet Bean! I am so looking forward to seeing where it takes her! 😀

🤲🏻🩰🌏🤩 xx 

[meadowblythe]

1 hour ago, balletbean said:

Training is one cost but then our darlings embark on a professional career which takes them overseas our expenses don’t stop. No quick road trip or letting the train take the strain so we can watch them perform.   Serious £££ are spent so we can watch them perform & living their best life. I’m sure none of us would have it any other way just hope the Bank Manager feels the same ☺️

 

I have a spreadsheet (honestly) for our summer holiday this year.  We all assured DS it would be fun to move him from one obscure country to another.  Add in Non DS who wants to come for the experience of driving in that part of the world, and Musical DD who is joining us having spent the summer bringing art and music to children in refugee camps.  There one day out of the 10 when at least one of us is not travelling.  My fault but next time I'm funding a man and a van (transcontinental). 

[glowlight]

3 hours ago, balletbean said:

No quick road trip or letting the train take the strain so we can watch them perform.   Serious £££ are spent so we can watch them perform & living their best life.

Oh but what an opportunity it is.  I am so grateful that we were able to afford to go and cruise on the ships my dd worked on, not just once but several times. We visited so many places that we wouldn't have thought of going to otherwise (who knew that Puerto Rico is so awesome!)  

[balletbean]

19 minutes ago, glowlight said:

Oh but what an opportunity it is.  I am so grateful that we were able to afford to go and cruise on the ships my dd worked on, not just once but several times. We visited so many places that we wouldn't have thought of going to otherwise (who knew that Puerto Rico is so awesome!)  

How amazing, and yes absolutely. 🌎☺️✈️  

Ps. We now have a world map on the kitchen wall for all my (not so little) children to pinpoint where in the world they’ve been.  Competition is fierce of who can have the most coloured pins that mark their visits.  🌏😊

Edited June 20, 2023 by balletbean

[FlexyNexy]

21 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Are you talking about vocational training ? I don’t think we’ve spent anything near that but maybe we have been lucky ! 

I am talking Upper school without qualification for extra support was definetly more than 800 Euros for us. For un-named company she worked for a year as junior artist after graduation I HAD TO PAY THEM so she can have a little exposure €200 single room €150 monthly utilities €500 costumes rental and God forbit she had a good casting which came with guest choreographer who charged €800 only for couple of hours of one to one work, not mentioning flights which for some reason to Paris I was charged over €650. She got nothing €€ from them.
The cost simply does not add up if my DD would stay in Europe. 
I am European and can tell you the cost of food and rent is very high, unless you live in a small village.
 

[Peanut68]

Frankly it’s appalling…. Didn’t things like paying for internships get outlawed in other industries (like law?) Why isn’t this being highlighted as gross employment law misconduct? And wouid audiences really be happy paying to watch if they knew that dancers were actually not paid but indeed were actually paying through the nose for the opportunity to perform?

I just so would love to see if there could be a model that would work actually as a commercially viable entity…with open transparency about costs & salaries & ticket prices…. It might need to be small, it might need to tour small venues (& I think that’s where you will find audiences…) Skill in programming (give audiences what they want) skill in marketing & sales very much would be key to break-even (dare I even imagine profit?) success…. But surely it can be done….. I’m thinking along lines of the touring days of Pavlova, the Ballet Russia, Diagalev…though I guess back then no employment or health & safety or safeguarding laws so who knows of dancers were paid fairly than too (suspect sone were sone weren’t…) 
Pure pipe dream? Maybe….

 

[Pas de Quatre]

These companies at the beginning of the 20th century were not financially stable. They relied on Patronage of rich individuals and were often living hand to mouth. Some seasons were a great success artistically and financially, but not all.

[Topaz]

My dd has just returned from doing a pre professional year in Europe and I am appalled by the way some companies are treating young dancers the whole industry needs total reform. My dd has come away with loving dance but hating the industry. I find the practice of paying young dancers for shows not giving any certainty of how many just not liveable yet expecting them there all day for long hours rehearsing just in case a company member gets injured. They also make empty promises about helping them audition for other companies and deliver nothing leaving them high and dry. Many are just using pre professional programs to make money then hiring dancers from outside which leads to the question is this training inferior if they prefer dancers outside so what is the point. And don’t even get me started about the body shaming !!

[FlexyNexy]

1 hour ago, Topaz said:

My dd has just returned from doing a pre professional year in Europe and I am appalled by the way some companies are treating young dancers the whole industry needs total reform. My dd has come away with loving dance but hating the industry. I find the practice of paying young dancers for shows not giving any certainty of how many just not liveable yet expecting them there all day for long hours rehearsing just in case a company member gets injured. They also make empty promises about helping them audition for other companies and deliver nothing leaving them high and dry. Many are just using pre professional programs to make money then hiring dancers from outside which leads to the question is this training inferior if they prefer dancers outside so what is the point. And don’t even get me started about the body shaming !!

I hear you. Those pre-professional programs just prolong the pain in my opinion. 
Europe same as the school my DD graduated is famed for body shaming...we heard many times how British are fat, my DD called bipolar as she did not understand the choreographer what expression he is requesting her to do. Oh and we had Company Director sitting in the car by the dorm where the girls in my DD group stayed as someone said they are going out for party that weekend. 
Director visiting girls during breaks to see what they are eating and naming and shaming them for their food. I could go on, but my post was abut wage.

Edited June 21, 2023 by FlexyNexy
spelling error

[Kerfuffle]

Flexy where in Europe was this, that is terrible! Why are British students considered fat? My DD had some disparaging comments made to her because she was British (not to do with her size), they were about RAD training. Ironically my DD is vaganova trained but it was an assumption because she’s English. 

[FlexyNexy]

5 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Flexy where in Europe was this, that is terrible! Why are British students considered fat? My DD had some disparaging comments made to her because she was British (not to do with her size), they were about RAD training. Ironically my DD is vaganova trained but it was an assumption because she’s English. 

Portugal...very openly speaking about Brits (often mentioning ENB studets). Not very nice or healthy environment. They also had a strange health check when the physio came to see the girls individualy and checked them completely undressed (top not even bra allowed) and was charged €20 for this. To date we do not know what it was!

[Kerfuffle]

Why ENBS students in particular ? Have they known many ? This sounds like a very dodgy school, which one was it? 

[Peanut68]

That is just terrible & shocking & frankly abuse! Isn’t Portugal part of the EU? Surely they have to operate by codes of conduct? Why oh why does this beautiful art continuously allow itself to be tainted by the activities of a few individuals? Afterall, a dance company or school wether purely commercial or operating as not for profit/charity surely has governors/share holders/unions/charity bodies etc overseeing them or who they at least can be held accountable by? Trouble is - just as in the vocational & possibly even in regular - dance schools, there’s still that fear of not speaking out for fear of being cast aside…. Or rather NOT cast…. 
Can’t tell you how many times we heard the phrase ‘I can make you’  from people in positions of power…. But I started to gradually dread hearing that this phrase had been said to my DC or to any of their peers…. As the subliminal subtext I think was far louder….we’re they really saying ‘I can break you’…???

And I feel they certainly do the latter to many more than they ‘make’.

There is too, let’s face it, parental collusion in some of this…. As long as your kid is not being challenged then better just stick head in sand… also there’s the body shaming from parent to student dancer offspring I have sadly witnessed….then there’s the ‘island of one’ - avoid the trouble maker kid/family and as long as ‘you’re alright Jack’ turn a blind eye & a deaf ear to witnessing the clear acts of abuse  be they of power/physical/sexual. The ‘Me too’ movement (and this is across all gender or non gender identifying groups) seems to have completely passed the ballet world by, as has gender equality (ok, I get it that more girls than boys train but surely in this day & age free class opportunities etc should be gender neutral?)

I could rant on….

Edited June 21, 2023 by Peanut68

[tutugirl]

Well I’d better post something positive!

My DS has worked in Czech for 6 years . He earns a comfortable salary and the cost of living is low .

His salary affords him a lovely flat , driving lessons , and enough left over from living costs to save some money every month .

It is a lovely company where everyone is treated fairly . Spoken language for class etc is English .Extra money may be earned by taking part in operas or musicals ( if so wished )

It appears he is very fortunate . It is very cheap to fly out to see him dance, which I do frequently .

I hope some people may feel encouraged by this . 

[FlexyNexy]

35 minutes ago, tutugirl said:

Well I’d better post something positive!

My DS has worked in Czech for 6 years . He earns a comfortable salary and the cost of living is low .

His salary affords him a lovely flat , driving lessons , and enough left over from living costs to save some money every month .

It is a lovely company where everyone is treated fairly . Spoken language for class etc is English .Extra money may be earned by taking part in operas or musicals ( if so wished )

It appears he is very fortunate . It is very cheap to fly out to see him dance, which I do frequently .

I hope some people may feel encouraged by this . 

We got offer from Czech which would be lovely to take since it is my home country, but we have not been very fortunate with salary offer being €900 

It would not be practical to commute if she is to stay with the family to safe cost on room. 

[Lifeafterballet]

2 hours ago, tutugirl said:

Well I’d better post something positive!

My DS has worked in Czech for 6 years . He earns a comfortable salary and the cost of living is low .

His salary affords him a lovely flat , driving lessons , and enough left over from living costs to save some money every month .

It is a lovely company where everyone is treated fairly . Spoken language for class etc is English .Extra money may be earned by taking part in operas or musicals ( if so wished )

It appears he is very fortunate . It is very cheap to fly out to see him dance, which I do frequently .

I hope some people may feel encouraged by this . 

I can second this 😌

My DS dances with a European National Ballet company. He is paid enough to live on and earns extra with every performance, different amounts for different roles. The cost of living is one of the highest in Europe but he is financially independent. 
They work them hard but offer lots of opportunities. 
He is lucky 🍀 

A lot of dancers from his graduate class and later years were not in such a fortunate position.

He is definitely the exception and not the rule ☹️

[Peanut68]

I appreciate the good news stories & congratulations to your DS's Tutu & Lifeafter!

 

I do see there are possibly at present more audition opportunities for male dancers as clearly they are in shorter supply than female...I do wonder if therefore they attract a premium & thus might be higher salaried? Less likely to be expected to self-fund also in pre-pro training possibly? All just questions not at all intended to be confrontational... Again - one hopes that a countries employment & discrimination laws do ensure things are equal....but....

[glowlight]

On 20/06/2023 at 19:31, balletbean said:

Ps. We now have a world map on the kitchen wall for all my (not so little) children to pinpoint where in the world they’ve been.  Competition is fierce of who can have the most coloured pins that mark their visits.

Haha - we used to have one of those too.  It only came down when I had the kitchen re-done.

[glowlight]

I think what I am about to write may be controversial,  but maybe we as parents of dancers need to instil in them a sense of self worth so that once they have completed their professional training they do not dance for nothing, they do not dance for 'exposure'. They realise that an unpaid 'job' is not a job it is exploitation.  This is tough, because for some it will mean they don't get the chance to perform, or they may have to re-align their expectations and take different types of work.  But every time a professional artist works for nothing, they are exacerbating the problem.  

 

That's not to say that they shouldn't perform on an amateur basis, or to support a charity or worthy cause.  But let's be honest about what it is.

[Lifeafterballet]

32 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

I appreciate the good news stories & congratulations to your DS's Tutu & Lifeafter!

 

I do see there are possibly at present more audition opportunities for male dancers as clearly they are in shorter supply than female...I do wonder if therefore they attract a premium & thus might be higher salaried? Less likely to be expected to self-fund also in pre-pro training possibly? All just questions not at all intended to be confrontational... Again - one hopes that a countries employment & discrimination laws do ensure things are equal....but....

Men and women are paid exactly the same in my sons company.

Not sure of what happens elsewhere.

In our experience there are more employment opportunities for male dancers. DS got offered all 3 EU contracts he auditioned for. And the vacancies were not advertised. He just liked the look of them and sent his CV and footage. 
Right place, right time plays a huge part I feel x

[Lifeafterballet]

12 minutes ago, glowlight said:

I think what I am about to write may be controversial,  but maybe we as parents of dancers need to instil in them a sense of self worth so that once they have completed their professional training they do not dance for nothing, they do not dance for 'exposure'. They realise that an unpaid 'job' is not a job it is exploitation.  This is tough, because for some it will mean they don't get the chance to perform, or they may have to re-align their expectations and take different types of work.  But every time a professional artist works for nothing, they are exacerbating the problem.  

 

That's not to say that they shouldn't perform on an amateur basis, or to support a charity or worthy cause.  But let's be honest about what it is.

I 100% agree with you about installing self worth in our children but sadly in our experience the vocational schools install the opposite.

I can’t count how many times I have looked at celebrated graduate destinations knowing that nearly all are unpaid 😢 hiding behind titles like Studio or Junior Company. 
I think it’s knowing when to call time on the paying out. 
My daughter stopping was the best decision she ever made. Even though she had a paid contract, it was never go to pay enough to be independent. 
And the physical and mental costs were worse than the financial. 

[balletbean]

15 hours ago, glowlight said:

I think what I am about to write may be controversial,  but maybe we as parents of dancers need to instil in them a sense of self worth so that once they have completed their professional training they do not dance for nothing, they do not dance for 'exposure'. They realise that an unpaid 'job' is not a job it is exploitation.  This is tough, because for some it will mean they don't get the chance to perform, or they may have to re-align their expectations and take different types of work.  But every time a professional artist works for nothing, they are exacerbating the problem.  

 

That's not to say that they shouldn't perform on an amateur basis, or to support a charity or worthy cause.  But let's be honest about what it is.

Never a truer word written.
 

My DD declined one contract after reading the very small print of T&C’s incl pay. It would have been so easy to say yes, when sitting at home at the end of one contract just wanting to dance.  She just had this inner feeling that it wasn’t the right contract for her,  still not an easy decision though. 
She was spot on. Within a matter of weeks all the stars aligned for her current contract.  Living her best life. 🌏😊
 

 

[DianeN]

It appears that - at least in Germany - the "minimum wage" for theatre people with full contracts is at present €2700 /month; set to rise. (Both of my DDs were until recently full-time ballet dancers in German companies.) Even those dancers who are not members of the unions get the same amount as union-members. 

 

However, there are quite a few ballet companies where dancers just out of school are hired as  "apprentices" or something similar, and then the pay is - I think - considerably less. (This practice is akin to exploitation, in my opinion, but I do understand that many dancers just want to dance!) 

 

 

[Pas de Quatre]

The use of apprentices, stagiaires in France, has been normal for decades. When I first auditioned for professional jobs, my teacher warned me that as a first employment I might only be offered an apprentice position, but to accept if I liked the company. In fact I got a full contract in a smaller company and moved to a full contract in a larger company the following year, where there were indeed two apprentices. They were paid less, but gained full contracts the following year. Of course some places are abusing the system now and exploiting the dancers, but not all.

[Jan McNulty]

Hello @DianeN and welcome out of the lurking shadows!

[Peanut68]

On 22/06/2023 at 11:42, balletbean said:

My DD declined one contract after reading the very small print of T&C’s incl pay.

At least there was a contract to read! Am appalled at how we almost let DC ‘join’ a ‘company’ overseas on a one way ticket we’d have had to pay for…. But when it became clear that there was indeed no contract, no clear info on t&c’s or work conditions or salary or expenses, just very ambiguous WhatsApp messages, DC realised that it wasn’t a job but exploitation & thankfully saw sense & declined…

 

[FlexyNexy]

14 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

At least there was a contract to read! Am appalled at how we almost let DC ‘join’ a ‘company’ overseas on a one way ticket we’d have had to pay for…. But when it became clear that there was indeed no contract, no clear info on t&c’s or work conditions or salary or expenses, just very ambiguous WhatsApp messages, DC realised that it wasn’t a job but exploitation & thankfully saw sense & declined…

 

In our case, terrible mixed fonts, bright red underlined paragraphs, and clauses and unclear instructions. Even join date had to be questioned via sms! 
Sad to see how some companies treat juniors and apprentices. My DD is not a prodigy to fly straight to soloist, but proud to keep her values and decline miserable offers. Sadly, we are not in a position to continue financially support her dream and expected her to be more independent with this dance. Love for ballet will not put food on her plate.

[FlexyNexy]

On 27/06/2023 at 10:55, DianeN said:

It appears that - at least in Germany - the "minimum wage" for theatre people with full contracts is at present €2700 /month; set to rise. (Both of my DDs were until recently full-time ballet dancers in German companies.) Even those dancers who are not members of the unions get the same amount as union-members. 

 

However, there are quite a few ballet companies where dancers just out of school are hired as  "apprentices" or something similar, and then the pay is - I think - considerably less. (This practice is akin to exploitation, in my opinion, but I do understand that many dancers just want to dance!) 

 

 

Munich offered my DD €900, I can only think they saw her as junior (although 2 years from graduation and 1 year as Artist under her belt).

[balletbean]

15 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

At least there was a contract to read! Am appalled at how we almost let DC ‘join’ a ‘company’ overseas on a one way ticket we’d have had to pay for…. But when it became clear that there was indeed no contract, no clear info on t&c’s or work conditions or salary or expenses, just very ambiguous WhatsApp messages, DC realised that it wasn’t a job but exploitation & thankfully saw sense & declined…

 

Oh my goodness that’s awful. I’m so sorry that your son had to go through that experience. Hope all worked out for him in the end 🌏🙆🏻‍♂️

[balletbean]

30 minutes ago, FlexyNexy said:

In our case, terrible mixed fonts, bright red underlined paragraphs, and clauses and unclear instructions. Even join date had to be questioned via sms! 
Sad to see how some companies treat juniors and apprentices. My DD is not a prodigy to fly straight to soloist, but proud to keep her values and decline miserable offers. Sadly, we are not in a position to continue financially support her dream and expected her to be more independent with this dance. Love for ballet will not put food on her plate.

So sad to hear of so many stories like yours. The ballet world could end up losing out on many talented artists as it will be left to those that are fortunate enough to have a family that can financially support them rather than the company paying a living wage 😞   

Edited June 28, 2023 by balletbean