Royal Ballet Preferred Principal Partnerships

[Linnzi5]

I've really have enjoyed reading this discussion. I thought I was alone in not finding Darcey Bussell to be a dancer who moved me as much as many others did. I honestly believed I had missed something. I could see that technically she could be very good and of course, she was very pretty and a real ambassador for ballet. However, I never felt she was a great emoter and I didn't have a connection with her dancing. I honestly prefer just about all the current female principals to her. I really think the standard is very high at the moment.  

[alison]

She *was* great in Balanchine.

[Fonty]

1 minute ago, alison said:

She *was* great in Balanchine.

 

She was probably a perfect Balanchine dancer.  I am sure she would have been his muse if he had still been around when she was dancing.

[Jan McNulty]

1 hour ago, Richard LH said:

I am sure you are correct as far as ticket buyers that are as familiar with the particular dancers, and  the particular ballets, as yourself, but it's the expectations of the infrequent, less knowledgeable buyers I had in mind, who  have no particular favourites but (all others things being equal) would tend to go for Principals rather than First Soloists... as  @alison intimates.

 

I'm a bit late to this game but when I was a newbie ballet watcher (from 1984) I never had a clue who I was going to see and didn't really care.  I would guess that most "casual" ballet watchers would be the same.  It is only with frequent viewing that I started to recognise and look out for different dancers.

[SheilaC]

20 minutes ago, alison said:

She *was* great in Balanchine.

So much so that NYCB wanted her to join them, although I'm not sure I agree with Fonty that she would have been one of Balanchine's muses, she had different qualities from most of them.

[Linnzi5]

1 minute ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I'm a bit late to this game but when I was a newbie ballet watcher (from 1984) I never had a clue who I was going to see and didn't really care.  I would guess that most "casual" ballet watchers would be the same.  It is only with frequent viewing that I started to recognise and look out for different dancers.

I would agree with this. I had no idea who I was seeing when first going to the ballet and it's only in the last 5 years that I have understood what it is I prefer in dancers. When I first started to go to live performances, I would have had no idea who the principals and first soloists were and I would book convenient dates rather than specific dancers. 

[Richard LH]

44 minutes ago, capybara said:

But, as explained earlier (sorry if I wasn’t clear), I wasn’t suggesting that Principals should stand aside for First Soloists.

Oh sorry @capybara I misunderstood...I have been waffling unnecessarily!

[RHowarth]

33 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

PS Do we know that Cope is coaching somewhere again? He left the RB to everyone’s dismay some years back. (I’m just checking because quite a few statements get made on BCF which are misleading.)

I think Cope is now living in Portugal. The source for that info is publicly available - a report from either Ballet Association or London Ballet Circle from a few years ago.

[Emeralds]

53 minutes ago, alison said:

Didn't Adam Cooper leave while Anthony Dowell was still AD?

Thanks, alison, for reminding me- yes, Dowell was still AD in 1997.  Thank you. 

 

38 minutes ago, capybara said:

 
Please spare us. Roberto is in amazingly good shape for a 49 year old but his contributions to his ‘Friends’ shows are now mainly as a supportive partner rather than as a dancer.

AND having him would mean even fewer opportunities for the RB’s male principals to be on stage.

 

PS Do we know that Cope is coaching somewhere again? He left the RB to everyone’s dismay some years back. (I’m just checking because quite a few statements get made on BCF which are misleading.)

Not for an entire season, capybara, but it would have been nice to see what item they were preparing for that one-off performance, even if Bolle just did the partnering in a pas de deux. 

 

I meant Cope as a coach after his retirement being well liked, not necessarily that one has stalked him online to check that he has coaching commitments today or this week, although I can see how you might have thought the “now” meant that. I don’t know if he is. I also don’t know that he isn’t. There are retired dancers and coaches who do coaching or rehearsing without publicising or listing it anywhere, as they are already greatly in demand. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Emeralds

[Jan McNulty]

30 minutes ago, RHowarth said:

I think Cope is now living in Portugal. The source for that info is publicly available - a report from either Ballet Association or London Ballet Circle from a few years ago.

 

https://balletassociation.co.uk/pages/reports-2020-jonathan-cope

[JennyTaylor]

1 hour ago, Linnzi5 said:

I've really have enjoyed reading this discussion. I thought I was alone in not finding Darcey Bussell to be a dancer who moved me as much as many others did. I honestly believed I had missed something. I could see that technically she could be very good and of course, she was very pretty and a real ambassador for ballet. However, I never felt she was a great emoter and I didn't have a connection with her dancing. I honestly prefer just about all the current female principals to her. I really think the standard is very high at the moment.  

No, you are not alone. I tried Darcey Bussell on several occasions and couldn't find any connection at all. Yes, a nice, graceful dancer but nothing particularly special. Left me cold. I don't think she benefitted from having a partner with whom she had a real connection throughout her career.  However, she did retrieve herself in a performance of Manon with Roberto Bolle. I had previously seen a rehearsal where he nearly dropped her in a lift and it was all a bit difficult. Not a good omen.  However, I do remember leaning over the Balcony in the Act 3 pdd and almost shouting "yes, yes" because finally I forgot she was Darcey Bussell and she became Manon. It was a long time to wait, but I was glad I had persevered.    

[capybara]

39 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

I meant Cope as a coach after his retirement being well liked, not necessarily that one has stalked him online to check that he has coaching commitments today or this week, although I can see how you might have thought the “now” meant that. I don’t know if he is. I also don’t know that he isn’t. There are retired dancers and coaches who do coaching or rehearsing without publicising or listing it anywhere, as they are already greatly in demand. 

I think you have made my point for me about our needing to take due care to be as sure as we can be of our ‘facts’ on here.

[JennyTaylor]

3 hours ago, Fonty said:

 

Cope was also regularly paired with Guillem.  In fact, thinking about it, I don't think I saw her dance with anyone else.   He was clearly a wonderful partner, to be the preferred choice for both ballerinas.  Unless, of course, it was an issue of height?

It was the Cope/ Guillem partnership which first started me on booking more tickets for the RB.  Absolutely stunning in whatever they did. I didn't find either dancer connected with any other partner on anything like the same scale and I saw them both with a variety of different partners.  Certainly, Cope with Bussell was never on the same emotional plane and I think he himself said so; they knew each other so well, the connection was a different one.  I once commented on this to another RB dancer and she looked at me as if I was thick - " of course - if you dance with Sylvie Guillem, then you will always raise your game to try to match her".  Obviously!!  

[Tango Dancer]

10 minutes ago, JennyTaylor said:

No, you are not alone. I tried Darcey Bussell on several occasions and couldn't find any connection at all. Yes, a nice, graceful dancer but nothing particularly special. Left me cold. I don't think she benefitted from having a partner with whom she had a real connection throughout her career.  However, she did retrieve herself in a performance of Manon with Roberto Bolle. I had previously seen a rehearsal where he nearly dropped her in a lift and it was all a bit difficult. Not a good omen.  However, I do remember leaning over the Balcony in the Act 3 pdd and almost shouting "yes, yes" because finally I forgot she was Darcey Bussell and she became Manon. It was a long time to wait, but I was glad I had persevered.    

 

I'd agree, Darcey did nothing for me.  Yes she was a good dancer and had a lot of talent and beautiful lines but there was something not there in her connection to her partner and she always came across as a bit lacking in emotion in her dancing.  It was technically great, but somehow not reaching me emotionally and I always felt she kept something back rather than giving herself into the dance.  I think she's a wonderful ambassador for ballet and really like her commentary on the cinema performances, but her dancing has never really reached me.   

[Tango Dancer]

3 minutes ago, JennyTaylor said:

It was the Cope/ Guillem partnership which first started me on booking more tickets for the RB.  Absolutely stunning in whatever they did. I didn't find either dancer connected with any other partner on anything like the same scale and I saw them both with a variety of different partners.  

 

I think some people have one perfect partner who is just right for them, and sometimes none of the others match up or come close. To take a non-ballet example, my Grandad loved Fred Astaire (and reckoned he taught Astaire all he knew).  So I watched Fred Astaire in a lot of films with a lot of dancers, some of them better than Ginger Rogers.  None of them suited him as well as she did because there was something about the way they danced together that made the whole greater than the sum of the parts.   It doesn't have to be someone they're in a relationship with but there needs to be connection and chemistry and that's where the magic is.  

[Linnzi5]

Talking about not knowing who the principals were when I booked a ballet. At Christmas 2015, I booked to see Nutcracker with my wider family. I booked a date that suited us. Recently, I wondered who it was we saw as the Sugar Plum and her prince. I just had no idea and didn't get a cast list (they still gave them out back then, in the 'dark ages'! ) I remembered that Leanne Cope was Clara and Paul Kay Hans-Peter, but for the life of me, I had no idea who Sugar plum was. So, having read on a thread here about the archives on ROH site, I decided to dig. I found out who I saw! Federico Bonelli and Natalia Osipova! They were brilliant! That much I did remember.  

 

When Bonelli retired, I was upset that I had never really seen him live in a principal role. Only . . . I had seen him! 🤣

Edited April 24, 2023 by Linnzi5

[Jan McNulty]

12 minutes ago, Linnzi5 said:

Talking about not knowing who the principals were when I booked a ballet. At Christmas 2015, I booked to see Nutcracker with my wider family. I booked a date that suited us. Recently, I wondered who it was we saw as the Sugar Plum and her prince. I just had no idea and didn't get a cast list (they still gave them out back then, in the 'dark ages'! ) I remembered that Leanne Cope was Clara and Paul Kay Hans-Peter, but for the life of me, I had no idea who Sugar plum was. So, having read on a thread here about the archives on ROH site, I decided to dig. I found out who I saw! Federico Bonelli and Natalia Osipova! They were brilliant! That much I did remember.  

 

When Bonelli retired, I was upset that I had never really seen him live in a principal role. Only . . . I had seen him! 🤣

 

I was converted to ballet watching by a performance I saw (because there was nothing else on we wanted to see) of Onegin by London Festival Ballet at the Coliseum.  It was only years later that I looked at the cast sheet in the programme and realised why I had been bowled over - we had seen Marcia Haydee and Richard Cragun guesting with the company!

[Jane S]

1 hour ago, Tango Dancer said:

 

 I always felt she kept something back rather than giving herself into the  dance

 

Exactly - and then In that last Song of the Earth she finally did it and we saw what she might have been - and maybe she did, too.

[MildConcern]

A rather interesting interview with Kevin O'Hare where he discusses, among other things, giving principals the freedom to guest elsewhere. (I think this interview is from last year in Brno and is interspersed with lovely clips from La Bayadere, but it has only just be uploaded!)

 

 

[Guest oncnp]

7 minutes ago, MildConcern said:

A rather interesting interview with Kevin O'Hare where he discusses, among other things, giving principals the freedom to guest elsewhere. (I think this interview is from last year in Brno and is interspersed with lovely clips from La Bayadere, but it has only just be uploaded!)

 

In the past, RB dancers have been quoted as saying his liberal guesting policy is one advantage of being in the company. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by oncnp

[Benjamin]

1 hour ago, oncnp said:

 

In the past, RB dancers have been quoted as saying his liberal guesting policy is one advantage of being in the company. 

Like that’s good, but isn’t it slightly marketing?

Edited April 25, 2023 by Benjamin
No it’s not just marketing I need to re read

[JennyTaylor]

I've also heard the dancers say they really like being able to guest elsewhere. It gives them different opportunities and also the chance to shine and show what they can do. 

 

[Guest oncnp]

6 minutes ago, Benjamin said:

Like that’s good, but isn’t it just marketing?

 

Dancers have left companies over guesting issues so no, I don't think it's just "marketing"

[Jan McNulty]

6 minutes ago, Benjamin said:

Like that’s good, but isn’t it just marketing?

 

No - it is giving dancers a chance to explore their artistry and other audiences an opportunity to see different dancers.

[Silver Capricorn]

1 hour ago, MildConcern said:

A rather interesting interview with Kevin O'Hare where he discusses, among other things, giving principals the freedom to guest elsewhere. (I think this interview is from last year in Brno and is interspersed with lovely clips from La Bayadere, but it has only just be uploaded!)

 

 

And here is a link to an interview with Vadim Muntagirov, also from last year's Bajadera in Brno:

Now on Saturday Vadim Muntagirov and Fumi Kaneko will be guests in Brno at the Ballet Galla (pdd Le Corsaire) and next weekend 2x at the Balanchine triple bill (Tschaikovsky's Pas de deux).

[Benjamin]

11 minutes ago, oncnp said:

 

Dancers have left companies over guesting issues so no, I don't think it's just "marketing"

It’s not just marketing but I always wonder if that is one of the aspects. I assume the artistic side is more the driving force.

[Benjamin]

13 minutes ago, JennyTaylor said:

I've also heard the dancers say they really like being able to guest elsewhere. It gives them different opportunities and also the chance to shine and show what they can do. 

 

It’s makes a lot of sense and I wish these opportunities were available to more dancers.

[Odyssey]

I have nothing concrete to back this up, but I get the impression  that Kevin O’Hare has a relatively relaxed attitude to guesting. This is probably because there really is an exceptional range of talent in the Company and he needs to keep them happy and interested. It has to be win win as it also promotes the RB abroad. But credit to him that the Company appears to be a very contented one.  Those annual interviews with dancers must be very interesting given thongs have to be planned so far in advance, 

[Richard LH]

2 hours ago, oncnp said:

 

In the past, RB dancers have been quoted as saying his liberal guesting policy is one advantage of being in the company. 

And beneficial for the wider ballet-loving  public in the UK and abroad. Plus guesting of RB Principals elsewhere does partly help with the  problem of having "surplus" dancers at certain times. Indeed there seems to be quite a lot of this at present. It can create space for other RB dancers to perform in house.

Of course the reverse also happens when guests from elsewhere dance at the ROH, but this seems pretty rare.  I am personally wary of booking for such guestings  as for me it didn't work well when Bolle and Tissi danced with Nunez in Manon and R&J respectively.

[Jan McNulty]

5 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

And beneficial for the wider ballet-loving  public in the UK and abroad. Plus guesting of RB Principals elsewhere does partly help with the  problem of having "surplus" dancers at certain times. Indeed there seems to be quite a lot of this at present. It can create space for other RB dancers to perform in house.

Of course the reverse also happens when guests from elsewhere dance at the ROH, but this seems pretty rare.  I am personally wary of booking for such guestings  as for me it didn't work well when Bolle and Tissi danced with Nunez in Manon and R&J respectively.

 

While potentially reducing opportunities for the dancers in the companies (in the UK) taking RB dancers as guests...

[Richard LH]

6 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

While potentially reducing opportunities for the dancers in the companies (in the UK) taking RB dancers as guests...

Fair point Jan.

[capybara]

1 hour ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

No - it is giving dancers a chance to explore their artistry and other audiences an opportunity to see different dancers.

 

6 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

While potentially reducing opportunities for the dancers in the companies (in the UK) taking RB dancers as guests...

 

Not quite sure how these two 'facts' can be reconciled unless guesting within the UK is declared 'off limits' .

 

[Jan McNulty]

14 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

 

Not quite sure how these two 'facts' can be reconciled unless guesting within the UK is declared 'off limits' .

 

 

I was commenting on 2 aspects:

 

1.  It gives the guesting dancer an opportunity to further explore their artistry.

 

2.  It does reduce the opportunity for company dancers in the company importing the guest.

 

I have very mixed feelings about guest dancers with the companies I follow because I like to see the dancers I have grown to know and love but sometimes it may be a matter of expediency eg when Mathias Dingman was drafted in to do a couple of ENB Nutcrackers due to injuries with ENB and the number of performances they still had to execute.