ROH Stream charges

[AnneMarriott]

Having booked two stream performances for ballets in June, to be charged to my card just before the performances were due to take place, I was bemused to find two charges of £0.72 on my card for "OTT ROH".  I emailed a query to the box office and received this reply:

 

"ROH Stream currently pre-authorizes the amount of $1 with every sign-up as a way to help prevent fraudulent activity. This amount will be credited back to your account as it is only meant to authenticate your credit card at registration.

 

Please note that this hold will always be in USD, so your bank may convert the $1 to your local currency.  The full cost of the stream is only debited to your account when the confirmation/receipt email containing the link to view is received confirming the stream has gone live at the designated time.

 

https://stream.roh.org.uk/help/subscribing/why-was-I-charged-1-after-signing-up-for-atrial

 

Thank you for your purchase and I hope you will enjoy watching the programme online."

 

A bit of a surprise since my card details are saved on the ROH website, but perhaps it's because I haven't renewed my Friends membership.

[Rob S]

Are card details still held on the ROH site? I thought that changed more than a year ago.

 

My bank always charges me a fee for paying in something other than £...I wonder how hey'd deal with this

[bridiem]

No, they don't store card details on the website any more. And AnneMarriott: it's not because you haven't renewed your membership, because the same charge appeared on my card and I have renewed. It seems very odd since this has literally never been done by any other organisation in my experience (and since I have of course booked many tickets at the ROH on the same card). Did they say that would happen when I did the booking? I don't know - maybe it's in the small print; but if they're going to charge your card for any extra amount it should be very clear that that's going to happen even if it is then going to be refunded. Partly because they should do that anyway, and partly because it's unnerving to see something charged to your card that you're not aware of having authorised; how could I be sure that THAT isn't fraudulent activity?!  

[Lizbie1]

It sounds similar to the initial £1 taken from the "pay at pump" machines at petrol stations. It disappears after a few days when the real charge is taken.

[Peony]

I think some of the online supermarkets do it too. A pound though, not a dollar, which seems very odd!

[Guest oncnp]

2 hours ago, bridiem said:

No, they don't store card details on the website any more. And AnneMarriott: it's not because you haven't renewed your membership, because the same charge appeared on my card and I have renewed. It seems very odd since this has literally never been done by any other organisation in my experience (and since I have of course booked many tickets at the ROH on the same card). Did they say that would happen when I did the booking? I don't know - maybe it's in the small print; but if they're going to charge your card for any extra amount it should be very clear that that's going to happen even if it is then going to be refunded. Partly because they should do that anyway, and partly because it's unnerving to see something charged to your card that you're not aware of having authorised; how could I be sure that THAT isn't fraudulent activity?!  

 

I couldn't see it mentioned anywhere in the booking process (including the tiny print  t&c) but it was under the "Get Help Connecting" as @AnneMarriott noted above.

 

It is in $ because Vimeo OTT, who is providing the service, is based in New York. I think I've always gotten that initial $1 charge but not sure why they are inflicting it on you all now. 

 

[bridiem]

But did the ROH do this in respect of previous streams? I don't remember it happening on the few other occasions when I've booked a livestream, and I have never encountered it elsewhere (I shop online a lot, but I don't have a car so don't use petrol stations). And there is no reason for me to have looked at the instructions about connecting etc either now or (since I've done it before) nearer the time. If they're going to do this, it should be stated clearly at the time of booking. It's not the amount that matters, it's the principle. (As with the direct debit scheme, where there are very strict rules about when and how you can charge someone's bank account.)

[AnneMarriott]

19 minutes ago, bridiem said:

But did the ROH do this in respect of previous streams? I don't remember it happening on the few other occasions when I've booked a livestream, and I have never encountered it elsewhere (I shop online a lot, but I don't have a car so don't use petrol stations). And there is no reason for me to have looked at the instructions about connecting etc either now or (since I've done it before) nearer the time. If they're going to do this, it should be stated clearly at the time of booking. It's not the amount that matters, it's the principle. (As with the direct debit scheme, where there are very strict rules about when and how you can charge someone's bank account.)

I have booked previous streams without this happening and certainly wasn't aware of this at the time of booking.  I did ask in my query to the box office where this charge was stated and I suppose the answer was included in the link they gave - but I must confess I only skimmed through it and didn't find the relevant notification.  In any case, a more upfront warning would be welcome.

 

The main reason for me querying these two small amounts is that a couple of years ago I found two small amounts on my debit card account, one for a few pence and one for a few pounds, followed by two very large sums for petrol - far too much for either amount to fit into the tank of my modest runabout.  On reporting the fraud I was told that the two small amounts were probably to test the validity of my (stolen) details before embarking on a spending spree.

 

 

[Jan McNulty]

12 hours ago, AnneMarriott said:

Having booked two stream performances for ballets in June, to be charged to my card just before the performances were due to take place, I was bemused to find two charges of £0.72 on my card for "OTT ROH".  I emailed a query to the box office and received this reply:

 

 

Anne, I don't know if you found this charge by checking your account online (not a statement) or if it is a chargeable amount you have received on a bill that you have got to pay.

 

I have found that when I buy something online (anything) when I first put my details in a "pending" amount of possibly £1 or sometimes £0 appears and then the actual amount also actually appears as a pending amount.  The actual amount then usually transfers to become an actual transaction and the small value pending amount just disappears.

 

I think it is because the company you are purchasing from checks the validity of your card actually before the transaction completes because otherwise if you typed in an incorrect number they could end up with nothing and you could potentially end up with your purchase for free!  Some companies seem to wait to charge the actual amount until the item has been despatched.  I recently ordered something where the actual charge didn't appear for over a week!

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, bridiem said:

But did the ROH do this in respect of previous streams? I don't remember it happening on the few other occasions when I've booked a livestream, and I have never encountered it elsewhere (I shop online a lot, but I don't have a car so don't use petrol stations). And there is no reason for me to have looked at the instructions about connecting etc either now or (since I've done it before) nearer the time. If they're going to do this, it should be stated clearly at the time of booking. It's not the amount that matters, it's the principle. (As with the direct debit scheme, where there are very strict rules about when and how you can charge someone's bank account.)

 

Yes, it happened to me with one of last year’s live streams.  I asked the ROH about it and they said they’d get back to me with an explanation (they didn’t).

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, Jan McNulty said:

Anne, I don't know if you found this charge by checking your account online (not a statement) or if it is a chargeable amount you have received on a bill that you have got to pay.

 

I have found that when I buy something online (anything) when I first put my details in a "pending" amount of possibly £1 or sometimes £0 appears and then the actual amount also actually appears as a pending amount.  The actual amount then usually transfers to become an actual transaction and the small value pending amount just disappears.

 

I think it is because the company you are purchasing from checks the validity of your card actually before the transaction completes because otherwise if you typed in an incorrect number they could end up with nothing and you could potentially end up with your purchase for free!  Some companies seem to wait to charge the actual amount until the item has been despatched.  I recently ordered something where the actual charge didn't appear for over a week!

 

That's helpful, Jan - it sounds then as if it's a notional charge rather than a real one. But since it does appear on your online account, I still think that this practice should be stated when you book (or buy) so that it doesn't cause confusion (or alarm) to the customer. 

[AnneMarriott]

3 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

Anne, I don't know if you found this charge by checking your account online (not a statement) or if it is a chargeable amount you have received on a bill that you have got to pay.

 

I

 

 

They appeared on my credit card statement so effectively I had already paid.  In the reply from the Box Office it was stated that the amounts would be refunded but how or when this will happen is anyone's guess.  The cost of the streams I ordered will not be charged until a few days before the performances, in June, so perhaps the amounts will be deducted then.  

 

I wish I had known about this in advance - it was only an earlier experience of fraudulent activity on my card and the painful process of getting my money back that made me anxious enough to ask for an explanation.

[Jan McNulty]

4 hours ago, bridiem said:

 

That's helpful, Jan - it sounds then as if it's a notional charge rather than a real one. But since it does appear on your online account, I still think that this practice should be stated when you book (or buy) so that it doesn't cause confusion (or alarm) to the customer. 

 

It gave me a fright when I first noticed it when I started checking my account online some years ago and I did ring up to check!  Just looking at Anne's response it looks as though the ROH are actually going ahead with the charge.

 

Anne I do hope you get your refund.  Please let us know.

[AnneMarriott]

On 12/05/2021 at 19:38, AnneMarriott said:

Having booked two stream performances for ballets in June, to be charged to my card just before the performances were due to take place, I was bemused to find two charges of £0.72 on my card for "OTT ROH".  I emailed a query to the box office and received this reply:

 

"ROH Stream currently pre-authorizes the amount of $1 with every sign-up as a way to help prevent fraudulent activity. This amount will be credited back to your account as it is only meant to authenticate your credit card at registration.

 

Please note that this hold will always be in USD, so your bank may convert the $1 to your local currency.  The full cost of the stream is only debited to your account when the confirmation/receipt email containing the link to view is received confirming the stream has gone live at the designated time.

 

https://stream.roh.org.uk/help/subscribing/why-was-I-charged-1-after-signing-up-for-atrial

 

Thank you for your purchase and I hope you will enjoy watching the programme online."

On 13/05/2021 at 13:29, Jan McNulty said:

 

 

 

Anne I do hope you get your refund.  Please let us know.

 

Well I'm still waiting!  The full cost of the stream was debited to my account and the email containing the link to view arrived less than half an hour before the stream was due to start.  No sign of a refund ...

[Jan McNulty]

Oh Anne this is so weird.  My cousin donated to a fund raiser that I am doing in aid of cancer research.  Apart from her donation (which she did by debit card) 4 charges of 72p were made.  She contacted her bank and was told that would indicate her card details had been hacked.  They cancelled her card and sent her a new one.  Sorry to worry you.  This only happened 2 weeks ago.

[Guest oncnp]

1 hour ago, AnneMarriott said:

Well I'm still waiting!  The full cost of the stream was debited to my account and the email containing the link to view arrived less than half an hour before the stream was due to start.  No sign of a refund ...

 

Did you dispute the initial  £0.72  (x 2) with your credit card provider? If not dispute the full charge now and have them sort it out with Vimeo OTT. 

[Bruce Wall]

On 12/05/2021 at 19:38, AnneMarriott said:

Having booked two stream performances for ballets in June, to be charged to my card just before the performances were due to take place, I was bemused to find two charges of £0.72 on my card for "OTT ROH".  I emailed a query to the box office and received this reply:

 

 

Catching up with the Forum this morning .... I hope you were able to resolve this issue.  I'm sure it may well be a Vimeo surcharge.  I did not actually receive it for the recent stream - but then I (well, my email address) has an established Vimeo account with an annual surcharge already in place.  Considerably above 72 pence I might add.  The title 'OTT ROH' did make me giggle, however.  It would be - indeed is - very much 'Over The Top'.  That kind of wit I would not normally have (I think) associated with the ROH billings.  

[AnneMarriott]

55 minutes ago, oncnp said:

 

Did you dispute the initial  £0.72  (x 2) with your credit card provider? If not dispute the full charge now and have them sort it out with Vimeo OTT. 

No, I didn't because when I queried the charges with ROH they explained that Vimeo debited $1 (or 72p) to payment cards "to prevent fraudulent activity" and that the amounts would be refunded when the full cost of the streams had been debited.  It's all mysterious and very frustrating!  

[capybara]

And I have never had any such strange deductions.

[AnneMarriott]

2 hours ago, capybara said:

And I have never had any such strange deductions.

 

Lucky you!  I've emailed ROH for an explanation.  Watch this space...

[AnneMarriott]

On 19/06/2021 at 19:41, AnneMarriott said:

 

Lucky you!  I've emailed ROH for an explanation.  Watch this space...

Update.  I received a reply from ROH Customer Services quoting verbatim the information on the website about $1 (£0.72) charges to authenticate credit card payments and refunds thereof.  Since my email query quoted some of the very same words and pointed out that I had received no such refunds I have now replied, rather tersely, that I thought it was obvious I knew all that but had not received any refunds.  I know it's only tiny amounts but still ...

[Richard LH]

What was the amount subsequently charged? Was it the full price, or that less the pre-charge of £.72

[AnneMarriott]

9 hours ago, Richard LH said:

What was the amount subsequently charged? Was it the full price, or that less the pre-charge of £.72

The full price, hence my attempts to get a refund.

[AnneMarriott]

Final update (I hope).

 

Having done a further careful search of my credit card statements in case I had missed any refunds, I was astonished to see that the two 72p debits had simply disappeared.  I contacted the card provider who explained that Vimeo had not actually taken any payment - the debits were simply an electronic entry - so no refunds were due.

 

I wish someone had explained this earlier - it would have saved a lot of time and effort, not to mention boring BalletcoForum readers with my woes.

[bangorballetboy]

22 minutes ago, AnneMarriott said:

 

I wish someone had explained this earlier - it would have saved a lot of time and effort, not to mention boring BalletcoForum readers with my woes.

 

I thought I had but it must have been one of those posts I typed out and then deleted (doh)!

 

Pleased this is sorted.

[AnneMarriott]

I wish the ROH had explained it when I first raised the query.  Their reference to refunds misled me into expecting an actual refund appearing on my credit card account - I had not thought to look back at the debits.  This is obviously one of the drawbacks of online/paperless banking.  It reminds me how surprised I always am when I transfer funds from a maturing savings account into a nominated current account and thence into a new savings account.  No matter how many hours elapse between the transactions, even though the transfer in always appears immediately on the current account statement, it always mysteriously appears to follow the transfer out in the order of transactions at the end of business.  Result?  a brief notional overdraft!