alison Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 With all due respect to others' preferences : the original Mariinsky version danced by Vishneva&Shklyarov is the DEFINITIVE version ..... hands down !! It doesn't sound as though you are giving "all due respect" to anyone else's preferences, Ali. Personally, I find the Mariinsky version horribly dated, although I know that others love it. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 That is the Lavrovsky version. Although a big Vishneva fan, I feel the two earlier versions, the first with Ulanova and a 70'srecording with a young Bessmertnova and Mikhail Lavrovsky are far better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 With all due respect to others' preferences One of my law tutors always reminded us that when someone says "with all due respect" they really mean "with no respect whatsoever". The joy of this forum is that people can have differing opinions and discuss them in a civilised manner. I'd hope we can keep it that way. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Sadly, as far as I am aware, no DVDs are available for my 2 favourite productions - Ashton's (as danced by ENB) and Morricone/Gable's. Fortunately both live on in my memory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Oh dear Ali Pasha, you really dislike the RB don't you?! Fully agree with BBB view of 'with all due respect', I always hold my breath and wait for the total lack of respect which is to be forthcoming. We all have our favourites and personal dislikes, but to say the RB can't dance (that's at least 2 threads which I've read today with these derogatory comments from you) is ridiculous! 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl H Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I like the Diana Vishneva Lavrovsky DVD, it probably has the most ballet dancing of all the versions I've seen, it looks quite classical at times, I had booked to see the same cast on opening night but freak weather conditions where I lived meant I was unable to get to London, so was thrilled when this DVD came out shortly after. I like Ashton's version too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) I think if someone wants to be rude about one of the finest ballet companies in the world, he will find few friends on this site. With all due respect. Edited October 15, 2015 by Fiz 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodlandGladeFairy Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I own the Ferri/Eagling on DVD and the Acosta/Rojo and Bonelli/Cuthbertson on blu-ray. The Ferri/Eagling and Bonelli/Cuthbertson are my favourites Each is a nice capsule of the Royal Ballet in MacMillan's 'Romeo and Juliet', it's terrible I know but for me his ballet is the definitive version for me, when I see other companies dance to Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet score it's just very weird and I find it disjointed seeing different choreography which is weird because I'm fine with watching different version of Swan Lakes, Sleeping Beauties etc. but that's personal preference, another reason I think is the Royal Ballet's production is the one I grew up watching on VHS (the Ferri/Eagling performance) so it always has a place in my heart that no other production can match. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Shortcake Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Not only do I find the Lavrovsky R&J horribly dated, the pairing of Vishneva and Shklyarov just doesn't work for me. He is such a convincingly boyish Romeo he makes Vishneva look old enough to be his mother. And don't get me started on the wigs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I own the Ferri/Eagling on DVD and the Acosta/Rojo and Bonelli/Cuthbertson on blu-ray. The Ferri/Eagling and Bonelli/Cuthbertson are my favourites Each is a nice capsule of the Royal Ballet in MacMillan's 'Romeo and Juliet', it's terrible I know but for me his ballet is the definitive version for me, when I see other companies dance to Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet score it's just very weird and I find it disjointed seeing different choreography which is weird because I'm fine with watching different version of Swan Lakes, Sleeping Beauties etc. but that's personal preference, another reason I think is the Royal Ballet's production is the one I grew up watching on VHS (the Ferri/Eagling performance) so it always has a place in my heart that no other production can match. I also grew up on the Ferri/ Eagling version (oh...the death scene) and I agree with you. Although from clips I've seen on youtube I think that the Kirkland/Dowell partnership looks beautiful too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I own the Ferri/Eagling on DVD and the Acosta/Rojo and Bonelli/Cuthbertson on blu-ray. The Ferri/Eagling and Bonelli/Cuthbertson are my favourites Each is a nice capsule of the Royal Ballet in MacMillan's 'Romeo and Juliet', it's terrible I know but for me his ballet is the definitive version for me, when I see other companies dance to Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet score it's just very weird and I find it disjointed seeing different choreography which is weird because I'm fine with watching different version of Swan Lakes, Sleeping Beauties etc. but that's personal preference, another reason I think is the Royal Ballet's production is the one I grew up watching on VHS (the Ferri/Eagling performance) so it always has a place in my heart that no other production can match. It's not terrible at all...I for one agree with you! I've seen many R&Js, and whereas I like some of them, or find the take interesting (e.g. Nureyev's), give me MacMillan's any day. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 How many fans of KM's R&J have seen the Cranko version I wonder? Created very shortly before KM's work the similarities are remarkable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Just picked this up while preparing for tomorrow's (today's???) links - the BFI is releasing a dvd of Nureyev/Fonteyn dancing R&J including the original theatrical trailer: http://www.film-news.co.uk/show-review.asp?nItemID=1508&nType=2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 How many fans of KM's R&J have seen the Cranko version I wonder? Created very shortly before KM's work the similarities are remarkable. I've seen the Cranko production performed several times in the past by Scottish Ballet (including seeing Ms Rojo in the title role!). Funnily enough I first saw NB performing the Morricone/Gable production in Blackpool during its first season. I was sat next to a Scottish lady who turned to me at the end and said it reminded her very much of the Cranko production... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 How many fans of KM's R&J have seen the Cranko version I wonder? Created very shortly before KM's work the similarities are remarkable. I have seen it a few times...most recently when Stuttgart Ballet brought it to London. It is very clear that it was the prototype for MacMillan's version. As with many things, someone took already-good material and then enhanced it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billboyd Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 There's a very good story about Cranko coming to the ROH to see KM's version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveclassics Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 How many fans of KM's R&J have seen the Cranko version I wonder? Created very shortly before KM's work the similarities are remarkable. I saw the Cranko production a few years ago when one of the German companies brought it to London. I wish I could remember whether it was the Stuttgart or Frankfurt company but sadly it did not have a huge impact on me. I remember coming out thinking it was OK but not nearly as emotionally engaging as the MacMillan version. And I saw a TV recording of the Lavrovsky production yonks ago and like Ms Shortcake (lovely name!) found it very dated. It's not just a familiarity thing as I am most familiar with Dowell's 1987 production of Swan Lake and it is NOT my favourite version. Linda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naomi M Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 When I read MacMillan's bio "Different Drummer", I found this episode. In fact MacMillan and Cranko were close friends. They both saw the new MacMillan version together, and MacMillan said "I have not seen your version yet". Cranko answered "you have just seen mine". Which means Cranko thought MacMillan's one resembled his. (This is what Billboyd is mentioning I assume) But their friendship was not harmed. There are some similarities in both RJs, but I think there is a big difference. I always think MacMillan's RJ has the shadow of death everywhere, massive killings in the beginning, the pas de deux with the lifeless body of Juliet, this one is much darker. I feel much life and festiveness in Cranko's, the carnival atmosphere where the crowd throws vegetables, the Romas, the Mondolin dance is performed by clowns, It doesn't mean which one is superior, both RJs are great and I love both of them. Although the Lavrovsky production is very dated, it was the inspiration for MacMillan and Cranko to create their own, and I love the simplicity and modesty of this one so it is nice to see this once in a while to know how the prototype was. We have to respect this one too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLOSS Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) It was inevitable that Lavrovsky' s version of R and J should have become the template for most versions of the ballet that we see today because it made such an impact on those who saw it with Ulanova dancing the role created for her. Sibley and others describe being allowed in to watch a rehearsal at the Opera House and seeing this old lady swathed in woollies whose presence on the stage was a bit of a puzzle until she removed the woollies and was immediately transformed into the fourteen year Juliet. Naomi M thank you for quoting from the passage in Different Drummer which should kill off the idea that MacMillan's version is somehow a variation on a "Cranko original" which is a charge made by many of MacMillan's detractors. Cranko's version is a very fine one but I think that it is more dependant on having a cast of dancers with big stage personalities than the MacMillan version. The sad thing is that the Ashton version is not in any company's repertory.His R and J is unique because it was made before the Lavrovsky version was seen in the West. When it was revived by ENB in the 1980's I was amazed at how fresh it looked because it directly reflects Ashton's response to the music and his knowledge of the play rather than being,in large part, a response to Lavrovsky's treatment of the score Edited October 16, 2015 by FLOSS 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I've seen Cranko's R&J twice and although I enjoyed the performances I did find it rather 'sparse' compared to the Macmillan production, so I agree with FLOSS that it is more dependant on having dancers with a very fine stage presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Naomi M thank you for quoting from the passage in Different Drummer which should kill off the idea that MacMillan's version is somehow a variation on a "Cranko original" which is a charge made by many of MacMillan's detractors. Cranko's version is a very fine one but I think that it is more dependant on having a cast of dancers with big stage personalities than the MacMillan version. The sad thing is that the Ashton version is not in any company's repertory.His R and J is unique because it was made before the Lavrovsky version was seen in the West. When it was revived by ENB in the 1980's I was amazed at how fresh it looked because it directly reflects Ashton's response to the music and his knowledge of the play rather than being,in large part, a response to Lavrovsky's treatment of the score Oh Floss, how I agree with you about Ashton's R&J. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLOSS Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) Sarasota Ballet would appear to be the natural home for Ashton's R and J as far as style is concerned. But the company probably couldn't afford it. Anyway there are other more important things waiting for Mr and Mrs Webb's attention. In an interview he gave to the local Sarasota press some time ago Webb said that he had a film of Foyer de Danse and it sounded as if he hoped to stage it one day.That would be worth travelling a long way to see. Ashton's R and J seems to be a victim of the time and place in which it was made. Pre Lavrovsky so it does not imitate his use of the score which is a reason to ignore it or damn it with faint praise. Then the circumstances in which it was made; at the request of Vera Volkova after Harold Lander was forced to step down and the company was recovering from the shock;casting young dancers rather than the company's established stars you can see how easy it became to write it off as a failure.Though it is some sort of failure for a ballet to be danced until the sets and costumes wear out. But that is what happened and the myth of its failure seems to have developed quite naturally without much help from anyone.As far as the ENB revival is concerned while the first cast was impeccable other casts were not as fastidious in their attempts to dance what Ashton had set rather than what they thought he should have set, if the first Juliet in that revival is to be believed. . Edited October 16, 2015 by FLOSS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angela Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) Here's the correct quote from "Different Drummer" - the dialogue was not between Cranko and MacMillan. "There is a much repeated story about Cranko's awareness of how much MacMillan owed to him. Cranko had been watching a performance of MacMillan's ballet when a fellow spectator said to him, 'I wish I'd seen yours.' 'You just have,' replied Cranko." (p. 284). Georgette Tsinguirides once told me that Cranko was indeed angry with MacMillan, but well, they were friends, Cranko had always helped MacMillan, with his stage fright as a dancer or later when he could not do Song of the Earth in London. Judith Mackrell wrote, comparing Cranko's Version to MacMillan, about "several moments where MacMillan's version stoops to a blatant steal". This was in 2008 when Stuttgart Ballet brought Cranko's version to the Coliseum. ed. for typos Edited October 16, 2015 by Angela 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naomi M Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Sorry i should have checked with reading Different Drummer again, thanks for the correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 But even Ashton's version "steals" from the Lavrovsky (Juliet's run to Friar Lawrence with her shawl), despite the fact that he never saw it! I guess that music just says so much "Juliet running with shawl" that nobody could avoid it 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie14 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Thank you so much to all members who participated in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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