NotadanceMa

I don’t know how old she is but I asked my child who is a teenager and they said; when she is in class commit all her focus to thinking about the sickle when she is working. Over and over again. My child had a problem with their bottom for just so long, so that was their focus when they danced until it was no longer a problem. It is sometimes easier says my child if you have an area where you are stuck to giving it a particular spotlight, rather than trying to perfect everything all at the same time. If she could maybe also do some barre at home each day, or during the holidays, 15 mins. You be the teacher, no mirror and get her to practice, you give the corrections, so she starts to also feel what a non-sickled foot feels like. There isn’t a quick fix, but she will get it after a while. X

In my experience because teachers cover each other’s back; thus setting a child and their family against an institution. Safeguarding concerns again IME usually get raised only when there is an ‘extreme incident’ or then when the independent schools inspectorates receives enough complaints in a certain area that trigger a threshold for a formal investigation. There is again IME, not opinion, an absence of transparency, openness and clarity about the processes/assessments of vocational training. Even if the experience is a positive one, it is still closed to the outside. I am not used to the independent/private education sector, so what shocked me recently was when I found out that I cannot raise a Subject Access Request for my child’s information. I checked with the ICO because I thought this must be incorrect, it’s not. Again for me, anywhere, any organisation, especially those that have minors in their care should freely and happily communicate with parents, offering up information about a child in their care when asked, and should openly back this up in writing knowing with certainty what is going on with that child positive or negative. It is the culture that needs to change and that isn’t happening anytime soon.

NYB are a wonderful organisation. I have just registered my child for an audition. They did some really helpful workshops during lockdown, focusing on mental health and how to emotionally navigate certain situations in the ballet world.

@Peanut68and @Jane Thankyou It is interesting for me that I am focusing on on my child’s SEN. I know in my heart this is not the issue. It is a problem, but not where my concerns lie. The teacher in question is doing things that I do not want my child exposed to. I want to outline them here but can’t. They are doing these things to my child. My child told another teacher about an incident in class. The teacher in question was made to apologise. I knew though when my child told me what had happened that the teacher would get them back for this and they did. I asked my child what do the other children say, and they say, ‘oh the teacher really hates you’ shocking, but I suppose it’s not on them. Although there is whole class bullying, and yes coercion and shaming. but it is accepted as part of the culture by the students. I know another student has complained about being shamed in class, but nothing changed. I am aware that this teacher has been there a very long time and is close friends with AD, so where does that leave a complaint progression? If not a complaint, a concern. I am finding that on the breaks home I am constantly working with my child to help them find was to manage the classes with the teacher. I have even told them, it is them who has to change and just get through until next year. I know this is the wrong thing to do. I also can hear that my child believes the problem is them. It is worth saying there are no concerns in any other area of dance with other teachers at all. My child is thriving and loving everything. I have gone around the houses for now via the SENCO and will wait to see if this helps. The situation is disheartening.

That such a good point. I didn’t think about it in relation to the teacher. My child has said that on occasion when there has been some concerns expressed about the teacher by students which there has been then the SENCO or one of the Pastoral Care Team has sat in on a class. My child said it’s absolutely pointless though as the teacher is always completely different and the children then have no recourse. Mentoring for the teacher is a fantastic suggestion it invites transparency, but I fear this may well be exactly the opposite of what is wanted here.

I don’t think there is peer assessment, it has never been mentioned. By mentoring do you mean an older student meeting up with and working with a child offering guidance and support? Can you tell me what you think it might look like in practice? Excuse my ignorance. I’m interested because I would also like to possibly offer it as a suggestion.

@Peonyyou beat me to it. I think writing it out helped me process it a bit better. So I put together a very polite email addressing the issue from the SEN perspective. I didn’t address it directly with the teacher concerned. I have asked for a chat with the SENCO to look at putting together an individual support plan coming from the perspective that my child is struggling and needs additional support etc I think the problem is two-fold, so yes there is SEN which has never been a problem before in dancing, but it absolutely is now. I believe also and this is the area of difficulty that makes the SEN more of an issue is that the vocational teachers approach is also very questionable, not just with my child but in general. There are issues that are not being dealt with within the classroom and left unchecked. This is my take on it, I may be wrong. I also believe that this stumbling block is also part of an out dated culture that still exists within the art form, I don’t like it all. It is here I have to be careful, and yes it borders on unpleasant. I find it interesting that there has been absolutely outstanding academic support put in place. I mean just outstanding. My child is not behind in anyway they just learn differently, and this in my opinion sounds like it is being used as a stick to beat and humiliate them with. Whether this is a deliberate or intentional or based on a lack of understanding of SEN of that I am unsure. Hopefully it is the latter. I know there are vocational dance training organisations out there that form part of a the UK’s Equality and Diversity Program like Rambert, Central, the CAT schemes, ENB, so I know that SEN is not prohibitive in anyway and neither should it be. It is still tricky within the world of ballet though it is an uneven platform in our experience.

I always find it hard to write on here for fear of my child being identified, but I would like some advice and have nowhere else to ask. When do parents step in if they KNOW there is a problem with a ballet teacher. They know this because they listen to their child’s account of their ballet class and can hear that a teacher’s approach is out of touch in ways that traditional teaching approaches to ballet can sometimes be for certain children with different ways of learning, and sees these concerns reflected in their child’s assessment. Do parents leave the situation and see how things pan out or gently start to ask questions early on? There are reasons for me to be reticent we are on full funding and whilst this shouldn’t matter, I fear it makes students more vulnerable. I certainly feel a level of vulnerability I wouldn’t usually experience in the real world. And what makes it more difficult is my child wants me to stay out of things, they know there is a problem and believe they can handle it on their own. I absolutely know as an adult that they cannot. They are in a position of powerlessness. This problem is not going away of that I’m sure, it feels very much out of my control, but should it be? This much I know, if we were fee paying I would not hesitate, and I believe my child would feel differently also; that bothers me. I read on here a lot about how parents regret not speaking up sooner, I don’t want to be one of those parents. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

My child too @Neverdancedjustamumwould also be very happy in the corps because the one thing they have loved over the years is performing. They have been fortunate enough to dance with all the usual companies and their lovely local school productions. I can see that is where they come alive, I think that must be what happens in the audition process for them also because I cannot think of any other reason for their success. I have seen my child perform once, (I don’t like to watch) they were like a different person, it was like magic. We could not/cannot afford extra lessons, or anything much at all, I am always chasing down bursaries and grants, so that exclusive club of extras has always been very much out of our reach from the start. I don’t allow unrestricted social media like Instagram I think it is unhealthy for developing teens and recent research has said the same. My poor child has parental controls on their tech as well as the schools screening system. 😁 I don’t want to say too much in an effort to protect my child’s identity, ballet the further up you go is a very very small world. Happiness and enjoyment have been key for my child, lockdown was brutal for them, because Zoom meant the death of dancing for them. If that were to ever return again they would leave dancing behind this time. It sounds like your daughter knows exactly what she wants for now and where she wants to be is right for her. They are young and can change their minds overnight, that is their right. I have always said to my dance friend that dancing at this age is a really lovely hobby to pursue as long as it doesn’t take over your life, and without which you would not know who you are, that you would be left with nothing else in your life. You can still train, but that must be balanced with other things like friendships, education, downtime, family time and so on. More than just ballet. On here though for the most part we obviously post into a lovely echo chamber because outside this forum it can get wild. X

My child wasn’t ready for vocational at Y7 and fast forward a few years was very fortunate to be invited to join one of the main vocational schools from their associate program, they started this September. We had no intention of looking to vocational until US if my child still wanted this path. It has been a bumpy ride but overall they are enjoying the experience. Boarding brings its own very unique challenges. what has transpired very quickly for my child is whilst they are very talented with all the right potential for classical ballet (this is feedback from teachers along the way, not me showing off 😁) ballet turns out not to be their passion. They won’t die if they can’t become a ballet dancer and have realised that they are not ambitious in the same way as other children they are now training with. My child is a hard worker, but does not enjoy the rarefied air of ballet training so far, they find it old fashioned and culturally out dated in its teaching methods. The class gasped when my child was asked in a ballet lesson what they wanted to be in the future and my child said a social worker!!! The teacher then asked everyone to go away and come up with an alternative career choice as not one child could think of anything else but being a Principal. I remember my child’s JA teacher saying that after hard work, so much of this world is about luck and being in the right place at the right time. I think I brainwashed my child from the off when training moved out of the local church hall, that they needed always to have more than one Plan A, in fact multiple Plan A’s. And I made sure to tell them that they these plans can change over and over again and not knowing is also a plan 😁 I remember acutely the Y6/7 frenzy of excitement and hysteria in the lead up to vocational finals. My child was never going to go down that route but we were frantically swept along by it after an invitation and ended up with Y7 offer which was turned down. It was the most surreal of times for sure, and for what it’s worth it always seemed to me then to be something of a chimera where the end goal is always slightly out of reach. Maybe my child has intuitively absorbed this from me, I think I hope so. I am in no way knocking the wonderful children out there who are at the beginning of chasing down those elusive places, but the system is changing, has changed in the years we have been in it; with professional photos for intensives now the hot topic of chats over coffee, private lessons from Principals ever more normal, extraordinary amounts of training hours, private lesson hours amassed prior to auditions, in the holidays, extra training on top of vocational training and on and on it goes. Where will it all end and to what ends? So @Neverdancedjustamumwe have always been on the other side too, but as my child’s JA teacher also said ‘someone is always watching’ and for my child that proved to be the right person watching at the right time for just this moment now. Even though my child is now in that elusive vocational arena they are very much still on the other side. X

The DSM and ICD are the two main diagnostic manuals used worldwide and both are in current used. They are not used by cranks but qualified registered clinicians worldwide.

For me if your son is desperately unhappy and more importantly if dance isn’t where he wants his focus to be at the moment, then if it were me I would be planning to take him out. Ask him about schools, involve him in the process, ask him about dance, does he want to do this along side school etc would he like a break for a while? Boarding school is not for every child, it is a very particular environment, it would not have been for me at all; my child started vocational school this year but they are 2 yrs older and it has been a culture shock. There was no way they were ready at Y7 or Y8 despite auditioning with offers for both years. They were just too young. I still have reservations that it is the right place for them, however they are happy now and doing well, but I am aware that could all change. Before my child went we always said that if they were unhappy beyond homesickness and decided that this was not the place for them whatever the reasons then they could leave. They went in knowing that. Even though it may only be seven weeks into the term, seven weeks can feel like seven years to a child who is unhappy. It sounds like you are planning to take him out and I think FWIW that sounds like the right decision. Dance has many paths and other options all the way along until Upper School and even beyond this.

It is almost impossible to know what you would do if you have never been in a situation where your child has been exposed to your list above. I suspect all parents on here would write that list, I know I would have. Faith has nothing to do with the reality of a situation where a child is failed by the system. Just because your child’s experience bears no resemblance to accounts on here, does not mean that those accounts are less valid or significant or any less their lived experiences. I am not replying in response to any particular school just your absolute certainty of what you believe you would do. None of us really know for sure what we would do until we are faced with any given situation, only what we think we would do.

Compared to previous years you are right to be cynical. IMHO I believe it will be directly linked to the pandemic. I am in no way casting doubt on the wonderful boys that have been successful this year, but I wish this sort of intake for children that they had trained from Y7 had been reflected in previous US intakes.

@Medorathats what we found. Despite the misgivings on my part my child wanted to go to LS this yr. They would not have been ready for Y7 at all. We home educated for snr school as they are my only child and we are fortunate to have an HE study centre nearby. Ballet took up all our lives, with classes, driving, intensive and workshops. My child was old enough to know it was what they wanted to aim for longer term, but has a firm group of local friends made easier by HE and clear alternative career options. Despite being at LS now in the later years, ballet is not their be all and end all. They also have some firm friends who went off to vocational at Y7. My child did 10 hrs a week of what was good quality training, but I think if had not been offered places at vocational this year would have returned to school and maybe just done ballet for fun. They loved EYB, BRB and LCB performing and would have continued for them, and has made a couple of good friends through this route. I’m not going to lie, I didn’t want to do the driving anymore either, we both reached our end point at the same time. The reality is that if your daughter wants to train seriously then some friends outside ballet do often become secondary, however that said we never did much in the main holidays and my child would catch up with all their local friends then. My child kept a small group of good friends from primary school and his local ballet school and has never lost contact with them. They are making new friends, but once home is off with their local friends. Your daughters friends will also understand if they are good friends. What would we do without WhatsApp. It is a tough call, 10 hrs a week is plenty IME as long as the quality of it is good. Is your daughter on one of the associate programs, does she do maybe one intensive a year, have she tried out for LS auditions for the experience so she can get a good sense of how she is in relation to other children her age. Does she try out for things like EYB for performance experience. This was what my child’s JA teacher recommended at Y6 as we didn’t want LS at that time. Feedback from her ballet teacher in how she is doing and an honest appraisal of what she thinks.” My child did audition for lower schools all years before this year and has had offers every year which we turned down, but the experience of the audition process was absolutely worthwhile. It is a very specific incomparable experience especially finals in all the schools. Auditioning and performing have played a very important part of knowing how my child was doing. Apart from it being something they adored it gives a sense of what teachers expect from them. It might also be that with the teenage years to US your daughter drifts away naturally from the pursuit of ballet in this way. The pull of friends, relationships, socialising, increased homework, interest in other things absolutely test a child’s desire and motivation to continue down what is a very difficult path.

I remember trying my child out at a very good school non-residential. Training offered 5 days a week. I remember looking through the door window on my child’s trial class and seeing the teacher slapping bottoms, pushing their finger into the small of children's backs to knock them off balance and pushing the children when they were doing things wrong. Pushing children into lower positions whilst doing floor barre exercises. I had never heard so much shouting in my life, children were crying at the barre, and parents were routinely chatting on benches outside the door. The point I am making is not one parent batted an eyelid, not one. And no my child didn’t go there. I have no doubt this was a completely normal accepted part of dancing training at this school. I know it’s not vocational, but as @glissadesaid above human nature is a funny thing, this was just this schools normal. Nobody intervened and IME this has not been at all unusual along the way. Of this much I am absolutely certain coming from a place of complete ignorance with an older child new vocational boarder, ballet training once outside the realms of RAD ISTD and into the more unregulated world of ‘elite ballet training’ is nothing like anything I have ever encountered. Mention words like safeguarding, child protection, emotional well-being and yes schools for the most part will have policies and a pastoral care team, and yes parents know what they are BUT my experience is nobody is really that bothered; because for me the culture that still exists inside traditional ballet training organisations is a perfect breeding ground for abuse on a continuum from mild to extreme. My child has often said over the years if they’re not being screamed at and incessantly corrected then the teacher doesn’t like them and if they are having a bad day then they know they will be ignored. And maybe ignored if they’re having a good day, but it’s not good enough. Where else does this happen. My child has many friends in vocational schools since Y7 and the system inside for ballet classes is generally there are 2-3 students in each year carefully selected as being the best and are given more focus than the rest of the class. If you look in the schools’ policies yes this is how they work, but anecdotally this is at the expense of other students and then there are many debates on here as to why the lower school students don’t feed naturally into certain upper schools, maybe this is why. Are we told this as parents when we tour a school at Y6 of course we aren’t we might not send our children knowing this. It fits though doesn’t it with the % of those training becoming professional dancers. , but it feels too brutal to consider at Y7, yet it is how the system is working. Where else does this kind of teaching happen outside elite training institutions and where else would it be tolerated? Sport, gymnastics work in a similar fashion, and again these have been areas with major abuse exposes. Someone mentioned it’s just like regular school, no it isn’t and don’t be fooled into thinking it is. How can it be? The reason I believe we hear so little about the difficulties is that parents and children alike have learnt to accept practices that would not ordinarily be tolerated. What we then hear about on here and in the news are the most extreme end of the difficulties. The amount of conversations I have had along this journey with my child over the past 4 years since leaving the safe and secure world of our local dance classes in the school hall is that parents would tolerate pretty much anything to get and keep their child in the main vocational schools. A friend of friend whose daughter was at vocational was assessed out Y10 with an eating disorder and no support, still sent her son to the same school 2 yrs later. I don’t think though from reading they are the member parents who write on here for the most part. All In the pursuit of a ballet dream. These are of course my opinions and experiences, general and broad based because I can’t give specifics, names of schools and details or I will break rules of posting. I already know the path will not be smooth, bullying has already started in my child’s experience and whilst bullying isn’t unusual, the nature of the bullying was and the way it has been dealt with is less than satisfactory. I have decided as my child is ok, this is not the bill I willing to die on, not yet anyway. I am wholly aware that every time I write an email, make a phonecall, ask a difficult question that I run the risk of making things difficult for my child. And it is one of the risks. The bullying is not enough to make me remove my child of course it isn’t, but i have now found myself wondering what would be, but it is a warning shot over the starboard bow for sure. Thing is we all know about the warning shots but my experience away from this forum is that parents still send their children anyway. Apologies if there are any bits that contravene rules of board, please remove or edit accordingly. I have tried to be as broad and as general as I can be because I don’t want my child and their school identified, or where their friends are or schools they have been involved with. It is worth noting that I recently helped a friend to contact a LADO which happened to be Westminster, they ended up speaking to the Safeguarding lead there, who said they had spent the whole summer sorting through complaints of abuse arising out of both non-residential and vocational ballet schools. She said they have been overwhelmed by the amount of complaints they have received.

Thankyou I don’t think full-time vocational training is going to work for my child. Just have that feeling might be wrong don’t think so though. 😁 It’s really good to hear a different path taken.

@cotes du rhone !how often did he train a week until he went to vocational school?

Following with interest for similar reasons and for LS. We are in the south East and have and can travel, we would have chosen CAT Ballet in ?Manchester over vocational but it was just too far to travel. It looks amazing. ENB opening up their associate program to a lower age is fantastic as well. My child gave up their associate program place, but they would have left it anyone as it wasn’t as good as anticipated. The one place we are keeping an eye on is London Russian Ballet School, there are some rumblings they may open their doors to pre and vocational training again. Just rumblings though atm.

It will be I suspect to do with Covid RB are being uber careful.

@Geoffthis I now know is how things are for sure and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves IMVHO. Fortunately I work in independent advocacy with statutory bodies and keeping notes and copies and paper trails is what at least is very familiar to me. Just took a moment to reframe my thinking with vocational training schools. Thanks though for your transparency.

I had a good read of the schools policies around bullying, they are extensive, yet all rather vague. I emailed for clarification again to pastoral care and the reply was rather vague. what is missing for me as a parent, is not the sanctions for the other child, but a clear pathway of support for the other child. my child isn’t Y7, they are older but new to boarding and full-time vocational training. I can already hear from them that the student culture is quite a toxic one on many levels. My child is unused to competing in an arena where a great many children are in a system jostling to be the best and to be favourites. I have lots of misgivings about the culture at vocational schools, it must definitely works for a great many children, but for me it is a perfect breeding ground for bullying in all areas. Nonetheless my child is there, that’s where they wanted to be. my close friend whose child is longer in vocational than mine said that these schools run on a business model and are in the business of ‘CYAs’ which when I asked her what that meant, she said doing anything it takes to cover your ass from litigation and the possibility of being sued. It is something I think I will have to adjust to as much as my child. They are ok, one of the houseparents has been absolutely fantastic, but not in an official part of a support way. I am just relieved that my child is atm ok it was a nasty carry on and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Thankyou all for your replies.

Thankyou and hello @Jan McNultyand Thankyou @Janethat is a really good idea. Isn’t it awful I’m already worried about any fall out for my child if I push this a bit further.

Apparently confidentiality is the reason. I don’t care, but I do because some of what happened was IMO serious and I would have liked to know how this would be prevented from happening again. my child ok now, but was very down and overwhelmed a couple of weeks ago. For the school it is case closed and I have been told they have taken it ‘very seriously indeed’ but this does not match reality. Feels very wrong footing, the subtext is leave this alone now. Worries me going forward for my child TBH. And Thankyou @cotes du rhone !x

Hello all my child is a new boarder at one of the main vocational schools doing ballet. They have just experience systematic bullying by one of the existing students. Started small, leading to some IMHO some seriously not ok incidents. It has been dealt with. I don’t know how it has been dealt with as I am not allowed to know, but I have been informed it has. There was no mention of any supportive care for my child following what has happened. I did ask and was told a chat with the house parents could be arranged. Am I expecting too much from the school, is this fairly usual? I have read their policies, they say one thing which does not seem to align with reality. I cannot outline the incidents as they would make the school and my child recognisable on here, or the school year. im trying to be very cautious.