Cara in NZ

The hardest thing about ballet is the number of things you need to make it to a career. EG my DD has beautiful lines, but doesn't have the feet and stresses too much to 'sparkle' much. I say to her that she might have 8 out of the 10 things needed, and as she doesn't want a career she should just keep making her beautiful lines, which people tell me they love to watch. But assessments and exams only give so much credit for lines! (I also tell her that outside ballet, nobody actually cares about bendy feet!)

Paula Hunt, who taught at our dance school until she left for the RAD in London, led the development of the new RAD syllabus. One of her colleagues was telling me that she wanted to get away from the notion of 'little RAD robots' and get more expression into the syllabus. DD's current teacher trained in both Cecchetti and RAD in Sth Africa (Cecchetti is rarely taught in NZ). She regularly uses Cecchetti exercises in open classes, including my adult class last night. What I really liked was the exercise called 'Centre Practice' where you literally stand in fifth just 'dancing with your arms'. RAD Centre Practice usually involves pirouettes, and even the exercise the RAD calls 'Port de Bras' always has the feet moving as well. I really like the space to just focus on movement of the arms!

Agreed – DD doesn't do jazz but likes tracksuit pants to wear to and from ballet class and they were all enormously wide on her until I found some through an Australian dance website (Energetiks). Even though your DD may still be 'a child', the child sizes seem to get wider as they get into the teens, reflecting the way people usually grow I suppose. DD isn't tall (5ft 3) but was wearing Adult XS from age 12 as her legs got longer but her torso stayed slender. Sometimes have to adjust leo straps or trouser length, and I'm still trying to work out why the manufacturers think all teens get wider but then sizing narrows down again for slender adults!

Another thing I thought of is that although you have identified ballet as a style you'd like to learn, it might be worth investigating other dance styles that aren't so strict about what you wear and being able to see 'lines'. It might be easier to accommodate your norms for modesty in a less formal dance environment where there aren't so many rules. Just an idea, as you explore your options! If your heart is really set on ballet, then adult classes are your best option in terms of relaxed dress codes.

I know some of the girls at DD's school see a physio to correct bunions. Seems to involve strengthening the toes/metatarsals somehow (as well as toe spacers etc). I'm not sure of the details, and am sure you'd need to specifically see a dance physio, but it's got to be worth trying before surgery?

OK I've thought about it some more. Here's my theory... 1. They start out in soft shoes, getting the hang of articulation. Before split soles were 'invented', they still had to work against the full sole. Some schools restrict or ban split-soles. 2. As they get a bit older (age 7-11), they need to understand 'high demi-pointe' in their soft shoes because that is the closest they can get to the required foot position en pointe, ie strengthening their ankles and feet and learning to 'pull up'. (Ideally they have 'pre-pointe' or pointe preparation work in Grade 4/5 to help with this process.) 3. They get to Intermediate Foundation and start basic pointework. But they don't get soft blocks that year because then they will want to try to go en pointe in them, which is a terrible idea as they don't have any support. And they have enough to deal with as the reality hits of how hard pointe is! 3. After doing IF pointework, they have an idea of how much harder it is to work through the foot to get it to look half as nice as in their soft flats... they have also developed some strength from pointework and as they have pointe shoes, they won't be tempted to try pointe in soft blocks. 4. In Intermediate they get soft blocks to make them work on articulating through the foot doing similar exercises to what they are used to doing in soft shoes. This prepares them for stronger feet and harder pointework in the advanced vocational levels (RAD). Does that make sense?

Yes, for Inter Foundation they have the option of ballet flats with ribbons, but for Intermediate the RAD specs say 'soft pointe shoes', ie demis. In our experience, the girls HATED demis, and would leave them in their dance bags to see if they could get away with wearing their lovely soft split-soles that hug their feet. And yes, the whole reason for demis is to make them work through the block and strengthen their feet. But our DDs said they were just as uncomfortable as pointe shoes but DIDN'T EVEN LOOK NICE 🤣. The RAD website has all the info, but you have to download the Specifications doc to see the uniform details: https://www.royalacademyofdance.org/achieve/exams/what-we-do/rules-regulations-and-specifications I've added a screenshot to save you downloading

Yup, my DH is 5ft 11 with size 8.5 feet. DD is 5ft 3 with size 3 feet that haven't grown since she was 12 (now 15)!

I feel better now about the 12-yr-old from out of town who beat DD and the rest of her age-group in the junior variations at a competition 2.5 years ago. She is the sole NZ representative – and is now what I call 'Balanchine tall'!

A former professional dancer who now coaches students in Sydney stays with us when he's running workshops in NZ. He says that for women, they just have to have a 'matching pair' in the corps, ie another tall/short dancer to balance them out on stage. And that the height of the male principals often affects what they are looking for in female height ranges. He's average height, and partnered Sylvie Guillem back in the 1990s but found her just too tall when en pointe, and the centre of gravity made lifts difficult so he said no when she asked him to partner her again! (What a decision to have to make!)

It's an interesting question. Here in NZ the shorter dancers seem to head for Asian (as in Oriental) companies. But another thing we've noticed is that foot size affects height en pointe. My DD is 5 ft 3 and the same height as many of her peers when standing 'flat'. But en pointe, her tiny feet mean she is suddenly shorter than them (and their legs look longer, unfairly!).

Teenage dancers from Australia and NZ go to the School of Alberta Ballet, which has accommodation – does this not count?

Hi Peter, I'm in New Zealand and only replying because nobody else has! I don't know about Canada but generally speaking I would say that neo-classical is a 'branch' of classical ballet that dancers only tend to start as they get into their teens. The foundation training for all ballet dancers is classical ballet technique for the first 5 years at least, and then other things are added in. Neo-classical takes classical technique and 'breaks the rules' (safely), ie adding in more contemporary/edgy moves. It can be done on pointe or in flat shoes, but requires you to have solid classical training first. I don't think a training school for kids/teenagers would focus solely on neo-classical. There are companies with schools such as Rambert in London or New York City Ballet that have a lot of neo-classical repertoire but it is all based on classical technique, so to train only in neo-classical would seem a very odd idea. The emphasis these days is on versatility so even very classical dancers tend to train in contemporary and other genres as well as cross-training. But neo-classical is just a variant of ballet, not really a 'school' of its own. Hopefully someone will correct me if I've got this wrong.

I'm remembering Michaela de Prince's lovely mum in 'First Position', dyeing all the 'flesh-coloured' straps and elastic to match Michaela's skin tone. I imagine dancers are equally creative. although I salute Freed's initiative!

Just putting in another vote for listening to your child really carefully, asking 'open' questions (What/How rather than ones they can say yes or no to). Our DD is 14 and we don't even have vocational schools here before age 14. But even living at home the whole time, she has recently started having counselling related to the death from cancer of a family friend who was like an aunty to her. That was 3 years ago — but if they feel they can't talk about something because it's too hard, it gets bottled up and 'leaks out' in other ways that often are more damaging than the original event. Listening without criticism or judgement is just about the most valuable thing we can offer, whether it's long-distance or face to face. And gently prompting them to suggest what options are open to them is a good way to make them feel empowered to deal with difficulties. I wish you well — it's not easy!

I do think that late starters in ballet (ie 13+) have more problems with basic principles like turnout as of course that is being trained gradually through the younger years. Also bodies are less 'pliable' as we get older and things set in place. The adult open class I do has a mix of people including one woman who has only done ballroom. She has no idea about turnout but the teacher reminds her gently and gives us a mix of Grade 3-5 RAD, as Nicola mentioned. She is planning to get us learning the Discovering Repertoire level 1 but I'm not sure how ambitious that is! After a 15-year break from ballet (age 40-55), my hip flexors are a big constraint as I've maintained flexibility with Pilates but not the strength where ballet needs it. My teacher can hold my leg up past 90 degrees but on my own it's barely at 45 degrees. (Sorry if this digresses from the OP) @invisiblecircus Do you have enough info now to be reassured?

@Viv The dance you posted was my DD's first variation. It's the 'other' Peasant Pas, that we knew as 'the Kirov Peasant Pas'. The Repertoire one is just known as 'Peasant Pas', and our teacher talked about us learning it in adult class... but after watching a gazillion 11-year-olds dance it at competitions (as it's a good one to start with), I'm not sure I want to! We're lobbying for the Spanish Coppelia dance instead (Not that I ever want to do a ballet exam again at age 55 but she seems to think we should be working towards something!)

I wouldn't worry too much. It's much more 'big picture' stuff until age 8 or 9, ie learning about your body and moving to music. Our school had a girl who had only done jazz, started ballet at 13 in RAD Grade 5 – and (by sheer determination and hard work) passed Adv 2 by age 18. Sure they lay foundations in those early years, but as they get older they also get smarter and more coordinated, so pick things up more easily.

I've said this before, but over 10 years we have concluded that dance bags are just not very tough and rarely last more than a year (some even less). We finally opted for a dark Nike sports bag that has a ventilated compartment for shoes and a separate pouch for drink bottles. There are usually three top considerations (especially as they get older): 1. You don't want smelly shoes near snacks. 2. You REALLY don't want water bottles leaking onto pointe shoes or black character skirts whose dye may run into anything pink nearby 3. You need more space as they acquire things like foam rollers, sewing kits, first aid/pointe rescue items, ice-spray for sore bits etc etc. So go bigger rather than smaller but make sure the poor DC isn't staggering under its weight. I think that's all!

Completely agree with Fiz and baby steps. My DD is nearly 15 and winding down, intending to stop dancing at the end of this year. The most upsetting things I have read on this forum have been from parents saying they'd found out that their DDs kept going with ballet long after they really wanted to because they felt obliged to after the investment their parents had made in their training. They have to want to dance for themselves, not for us, and if she really wants to do ballet, she will return to it. At her age, it's not a big deal if she takes a break to reassess. Much better now than when she's older! (Only caveat is if you think another dance school might suit her better. Ballet does get a bit more 'serious' around age nine in terms of expectations and focus, but a good teacher should still make it enjoyable!)

I loved that film!

I also wonder if those hours include 'supporting' classes such as Pilates, Progressing Ballet Technique (the strengthening programme using the big gym balls) and other body conditioning/strength type classes or one-on-one sessions with perhaps a physio to strengthen specific areas after injury. She doesn't specify what the hours comprise, I don't think? So the total could include non-dancing too maybe. I know that the dancers in NZ's national company all have gym memberships that come with the job, which also suggests that the professionals do complementary training outside their 'working hours'. It's hard to know what to count!

Completely agree — but coaching professionals is quite different to coaching young dancers in training. I can see potential for conflicting advice. At DD's dance school, private lessons may only be taken with the school's teaching staff. I'm sure other schools would have similar conditions, although I don't know about Australia. However, plenty of girls from NZ have flown to Brisbane to attend holiday workshops with her (short intensives/workshops are ok, but one-on-one regular coaching wouldn't be)

I actually had trouble with how thin ballet shoes are, after returning to adult ballet this year at age 55. I put some thin insoles into my canvas flats, but they moved around. So I stitched them into place and that worked. If you're sewing them in, you could also cut out the middle and sew them separately around the toes and the heel so you keep the split-sole arch?

DD Driver, yes I did wonder if there might be repercussions for speaking so frankly! I also note that by calling what she does 'coaching', she is avoiding the fact that (as far as I can tell), she doesn't actually have teaching qualifications?