Ballet training in the UK

[Pas de Quatre]

We are back to the old saying, often attributed to Ulanova - to succeed you need 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration!  Of course you need the talent to begin with, but after that it really is a question of putting in the hours of good training. 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Maybe not to become only a ballet dancer due to the aesthetic - but to become a high level dancer.....

[drdance]

it really is a question of putting in the hours of good training.

With the emphasis on GOOD! The outcome of hours and hours of bad/ineffective/incorrect training will be a whole lot less favourable!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Which is exactly the point Syed makes in his book

 

Was it a coincidence that one little state primary school produced several table tennis champions as opposed to the school serving the adjacent catchment?

 

Or was it to do with the fact there was a teacher who was a table tennis coach who ran practices.

[BalletDad10]

Here's an interesting take on the 10,000 hours of practice theory. Could the example at the end of the article, about preparations for an American Football game, be comparable to putting on a ballet performance?

 

http://www.salon.com/chromeo/article/ditch_the_10000_hour_rule_why_malcolm_gladwells_famous_advice_falls_short/ 

[mimi66]

Interesting article, I enjoyed reading it, thank you for the link.

 

I think this is already done in ballet training for years...for that matter, other discipline (eg playing musical instruments).  Even where one practices everyday, focus is on different aspect in each class.  And the class cover so many things...  There are so many things to learn in ballet it is never short of variety!

 

But it is nice to see that what has been done for years are actually proven effective - it is not the case of just blindly repeating what has been done in the past.

Edited May 1, 2014 by mimi66

[drdance]

Interesting how different people have a different take on the article and ballet training - and again this is because everyone approaches ballet training in a different way. 

 

 

Interesting article, I enjoyed reading it, thank you for the link.

 

I think this is already done in ballet training for years...for that matter, other discipline (eg playing musical instruments).  Even where one practices everyday, focus is on different aspect in each class.  And the class cover so many things...  There are so many things to learn in ballet it is never short of variety!

 

But it is nice to see that what has been done for years are actually proven effective - it is not the case of just blindly repeating what has been done in the past.

 

I think that many many ballet classes are very repetitive; the same structure every day, the same type of exercises, the same muscle groups being used etc. I suppose a lot of it does depend on the teacher and how they then run the classes. 

[mimi66]

drdance,, I do agree with you that the ballet classes have the same structure and seems to be doing repetitive exercises - in a sense that there are only certain numbers of pas in ballet.  

 

But what I wanted to say was that there is an established way of learning which makes them not repetitive mentally. Probably that did not come across well in my previous comment.

 

In my experience ballet (or any musical instruments) is  taught (or guided) in such a way for a student to focus on sort of broken-down bits tasks for each practice session. For example when we were learning pirouette, we don't just start practicing single pirouette mindlessly for 100 times.  First we may practice releve passe without turning for 5 times each leg.  Then in the next class we may focus on , spotting, turning with both feet on the ground. And we don't just practice pirouette for full  90 or 60 min in a class.

 

If it is learning how to play musical instruments, we don't just start practicing Beethoven's "Appassionata" Sonata for 1000 hours by just playing it (and God forbid from just copying by ear, listening to a CD of professional pianist and not reading music yourself!) again and again from the beginning  - not that one could do it particularly if one comes to playing piano for the first time - and expect to be able to play it. In reality the task is broken down to quite a bits of process. Besides, if you are taking a proper piano lesson, this Sonata would not only be the one you have to work on in the given week.  It is normal to work on about 4 different types of music (including scales) in a given week for the next lesson.

 

As a result, I think we learn - albeit unconsciously -  how to vary each time we practice something, so that it is not an exact repetition of your first attempt . And I think acquiring this skill set results in the tendency that those children who seriously study ballet or classical music do also well in academic subjects.

 

For ballet, as I was taught in non-syllabus method so that might have made a slight difference, particularly for the use of different music.  And I never did a set barre.

Edited May 1, 2014 by mimi66

[drdance]

Ah right, Mimi66, I do understand what you mean now  . I agree with you in that ballet training is usually built up very well, but again it does depend on the teacher. You'd be amazed at how many expect a child to be able to do something like a jete just using a 'copy me' style of working!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Not just in dance too

 

I eventually took ds out if taekwondo as he was floundering just being expected to copy without moves being broken down or help being given when he was in the wrong position.

[mimi66]

I guess I have been very lucky with my ballet teachers, drdance.  

 

Picturesinthefirelight, well done for standing up for your ds.!

[Nana Lily]

I refer back to the original post in this thread and I am sharing a fabulous insight into Ballet Training in the UK via this video on youtube and the Elmhurst website. It may have been posted in other threads, but I felt it important to post here. I have had two DD's at Elmhurst, both who have received wolrd class training in ballet as well as a fabulous education, pastoral care and opportunities to perform with Birmingham Royal Ballet. There are snippets of both my DD's on this video (neither dancing!), but I really feel the video captures the dancers experience in training,performance opportuinities and life at at the school. I hope you enjoy this short video and share the joy demonstrated. You will see a few famous faces as well as some of the youngest faces....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-eeG_9ucZ4

 

I have also enlcosed the response by David Bintley to the obituary to Galine Stock in the telegraph where he commends her considerable acheivements, and also quotes the number of dancers in the Royal Ballet Companies from the UK ballet schools

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10804314/Response-to-Gailene-Stocks-obituary.html

 

edited to add link.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Nana Lily

[drdance]

That's a great video - thanks for sharing!

[Anjuli_Bai]

It's wonderful to see so many dedicated young dancers.  Thank you!

[Nana Lily]

so pleased you both enjoyed it, I love how its edited and the music, I find it very moving and inspirational!

[Belljul]

Lovely to see this again Nanalily. Fond memories of a great time at Elmhurst.

[Fiz]

I loved that. Thank you. I think I might watch in again, in fact!

[Fiz]

So I did. I wish I had had more help from my family when I said I wanted to be a dancer and I wish I had found this site when my youngest was smaller. I would have encouraged her to audition for a vocational school instead of being kept with the same dance and drama teachers for years. She would have been happier working with like minded coevals than running between school and dance and drama with kids that thought she was crazy to want something so much and work so hard. She might not have got in but now we will never know.

[BalletDad10]

Yes, thanks for posting the film about Elmhurst and the letter from David Bintley. Lots of useful information and insights. It would have been nice to hear some interviews with the staff and students at Elmhurst.

 

Re Fiz's post. Of course going to a top vocational school gives young dancers many advantages, but it's not the only way to get into a ballet company. Reading some of the dancers profiles shows that like in any profession, there are many roads to the top. What do others think?

[Lucinda]

So I did. I wish I had had more help from my family when I said I wanted to be a dancer and I wish I had found this site when my youngest was smaller. I would have encouraged her to audition for a vocational school instead of being kept with the same dance and drama teachers for years. She would have been happier working with like minded coevals than running between school and dance and drama with kids that thought she was crazy to want something so much and work so hard. She might not have got in but now we will never know.

It's very hard but we make decisions based on the best knowledge that we have at the time and sometimes we don't know or are able to utilise the opportunities that are there. Then there is the element of luck, just being in the right place at the right time. Throw in the fact that dance is very subjective and it's no wonder that it's difficult for us parents, especially those of us who have no dance background.

Most children who dance (even on a vocational pathway) are not going to be professional dancers and even if they do, the average length career for a dancer is 7 years! Children who attend a well regarded vocational school are more likely to dance professionally but there are still many who don't, there are other roads to the goal of dancing professionally. In my opinion I feel the benefits of having a child (to the age of 16/17) living at home and dancing at a local dance school (assuming they can get enough high quality training) are outweighed by the advantages of vocational school.

What I'm trying to say is that the focus should be on bringing up a well rounded, healthy, educated child with good mental health first. The child as a dancer should be secondary to those factors. This is so much harder than it sounds in the teenage years but good quality dance training is never a waste and as a young dancer once said to me "somebody has to make it" (as a professional).

Edited May 8, 2014 by Lucinda

[orchidblue]

I have to agree Lucinda. My DD was offfered a full time place at vocational school for year 7 after attending an associate audition. It wasn't something we were ready for & we declined the offer but enjoyed 4 years at associates before leaving to concentrate on GCSEs. My DD will now be starting at the same vocational school in September on the Diploma course after being offered a DaDA funded place.

Only once in the years in between did DD say she wished she'd gone in year 7 but I know she would have struggled being away from home.

It now feels like we've come full circle & she's where she's meant to be. It also proves that if the talent is there it will still be there when you're ready to progress vocationally & staying at regular high school whilst attending high standard dance classes does no harm whatsoever.

[Loulabelle]

My DD was also offered a full time place (Yr 7) and mds funding (on the spot) at an associate audition, wonder if it was the same school orchidblue?

 

We also declined it as we had not considered vocational school for her at that stage. We haven't regretted it as DD attends a very good local school and various associate programmes. She has been given many opportunities through her dance school that she wouldn't have experienced had she gone to vocational school and I believe she is a more rounded dancer than she would have been had she specialised at 11 years old. 

 

However, would her chances of gaining a place for 6th form be greater if she had accepted that place? Only time and audition results in a couple of years time will tell us that. In the mean time I feel privileged to be watching her perform on a regular basis (and pay for it!!) and very happy to have her at home. I know that she has that 'what if' moment every so often, but reminds herself what she would have given up by going away, not what she is missing by staying home.

[orchidblue]

Loulabelle

 

Having read your post in the thread about associate schemes I don't think it would have been the same school that offered our DDs full time places as we appear to be in different parts of the country. It shows though that these schools are always on the lookout so even if you choose not to send your child to vocational school at 11yrs but attend associate schemes etc opportunities are still there.

There's always more than one way of getting to the end goal & everyone will do it slightly differently. You just have to make decisions as they are needed then work from there.

[CouldDoBetter]

I have to agree Lucinda. My DD was offfered a full time place at vocational school for year 7 after attending an associate audition. It wasn't something we were ready for & we declined the offer but enjoyed 4 years at associates before leaving to concentrate on GCSEs. My DD will now be starting at the same vocational school in September on the Diploma course after being offered a DaDA funded place.

Only once in the years in between did DD say she wished she'd gone in year 7 but I know she would have struggled being away from home.

It now feels like we've come full circle & she's where she's meant to be. It also proves that if the talent is there it will still be there when you're ready to progress vocationally & staying at regular high school whilst attending high standard dance classes does no harm whatsoever.

 

Loulabelle

 

There is a lot to consider when deciding if your DD (or DS) should go away to vocational school at 11. Whether they are ready, the dance training available locally, the academics and the cost to name but a few.

 

It must have taken a lot of soul-searching to decide not to take up the offer. But I am sure that your DD must be amazingly talented to have been offered a full time MDS place at an associate audition so I am sure she will still have a number of options at 16. 

[PrettyPointes]

I think one main problem with ballet training in the UK -in comparison to other countries- is that there are no, or very few, in-between schools; it's either a full time vocational school, that's also your academic school, or a recreational school where you take as many classes as possible but it's never enough.  Whereas in other countries there are many schools that students go to after a full day at an academic school and receive just as good, or almost as good, training as they would at a full time vocational school AND they do more hours per day than British vocational lower schools do! Also, as far as I recall (I may be wrong) RBS lower school students in yrs 7- 9 only do a maximum of 3 hours per day, and given that those students study, as well as ballet; Tap; Modern; Irish; Jazz etc, it seems quite obvious as to why hardly any of their lower school students make it into their upper school when they look at them alongside foreign students whom, even if they started pointe at 12 started fouettes at 14 AT MOST whereas here most non vocationally enrolled students won't start them at all until 14/15 and won't start them en pointe until 15/16, which would be just a few months before Upper School auditions! 

 

I'm all for letting kids be kids, but at the same time we have to consider their futures; if at 8 they say "I want to be a ballerina", and there are no physical limitations, offer to let them take more than one class per week, if at 10 they're still saying the same thing, let them take more and so on and so forth. If you look at something like the show Dance Moms- I know most of it's not ballet and frankly I was offended by maddie's "ballerina" dance- they are dancing 6 hours a day 5 days a week and gaining performance experience at the weekends. And that is the norm in America for children who want to be dancers when they grow up, admittedly 6 hours per day for a 12 year old is excessive but at least they'll be prepared when they go looking for contracts/ places at a school. 

[Kat09]

Hi PrettyPointes that is a really interesting post. How are you approaching the lead up to auditions,are you confident that you are able to find the training that you need in the UK? My daughter did as many Summer Schools as she could last year to supplement her usual classes and came to an agreement with her headmaster to enable her to take more ballet classes in preparation for her auditions.I agree in the US they are much more flexible with the training available and many children do home or online schooling to enable them to train intensively. It is indeed very competitive at all the auditions but the schools are still looking at potential not perfection and they will want to train a dancer in their own style.Many children from the UK are successful in gaining a place at the school of their choice and this year in particular many from Whitelodge were successful in gaining a place at RBS  Upper School which surely must be a testament to the training they have received so far.

[JulieW]

 Also, as far as I recall (I may be wrong) RBS lower school students in yrs 7- 9 only do a maximum of 3 hours per day, and given that those students study, as well as ballet; Tap; Modern; Irish; Jazz etc, it seems quite obvious as to why hardly any of their lower school students make it into their upper school when they look at them alongside foreign students .....

 

This isn't really giving a true picture - you're right about the number of hours per day, although most of those are ballet, but you're incorrect saying that "hardly any of their lower school students make it into their upper school" - it's usually between half and two thirds of the year 11s who get into upper school and the same applies at other vocational schools I believe.

[hfbrew]

This isn't really giving a true picture - you're right about the number of hours per day, although most of those are ballet, but you're incorrect saying that "hardly any of their lower school students make it into their upper school" - it's usually between half and two thirds of the year 11s who get into upper school and the same applies at other vocational schools I believe.

Yes and those who still wish to dance usually get multiple offers to train elsewhere even if they dont get into or chose not to attend the Upper School of the establishment they are in at year 11.

Its true that some overseas students do a lot more hours and is probably the reason why Ive seen many overseas students come to the UK needing to work on placing, plie control and musicality due to too many hours working incorrectly.They may be able to perform multiple pirouettes or fouettes but these do not a dancer make!Quality is always better than quantity!

We should be very proud that so many want to come to the UK to train.

And people may be interested to know that over 50% of the original students in my ds year at WL are now professional dancers worldwide. As are many others the same age who trained at other UK institutions and/or joined RBS later.

Edited May 13, 2014 by hfbrew

[aileen]

You also need to look at who gets into the companies (in the UK and abroad) as well. Getting into the upper schools is great but who gets contracts at the end of the three years? A lot of the contracts go to students who did most of their training abroad.

[hfbrew]

You also need to look at who gets into the companies (in the UK and abroad) as well. Getting into the upper schools is great but who gets contracts at the end of the three years? A lot of the contracts go to students who did most of their training abroad.

This is true and vindicates their decision to come to the Uk to finish their training.

Ive just doubled checked my facts by looking at recent graduate successes at various schools. And yep, I was right a substantial proportion of contracts have gone to students who I know personally have trained in the UK from an early age.

 

Its extremely hard to get into a company and all successful graduates whatever their nationality should be applauded!

[PrettyPointes]

This isn't really giving a true picture - you're right about the number of hours per day, although most of those are ballet, but you're incorrect saying that "hardly any of their lower school students make it into their upper school" - it's usually between half and two thirds of the year 11s who get into upper school and the same applies at other vocational schools I believe.

 

Between half and two thirds would mean that there would be 15-20 LS students in the Upper School- this may have been the case 10 years ago, but in recent years less than a quarter of the original Yr 7 students and less than half of the Yr 11 students make it into the upper school. Three years ago only two Upper School students who'd spent any time at the Lower School got a contract with The Royal Ballet and 2 years ago none did.

[PrettyPointes]

Hi PrettyPointes that is a really interesting post. How are you approaching the lead up to auditions,are you confident that you are able to find the training that you need in the UK? My daughter did as many Summer Schools as she could last year to supplement her usual classes and came to an agreement with her headmaster to enable her to take more ballet classes in preparation for her auditions.I agree in the US they are much more flexible with the training available and many children do home or online schooling to enable them to train intensively. It is indeed very competitive at all the auditions but the schools are still looking at potential not perfection and they will want to train a dancer in their own style.Many children from the UK are successful in gaining a place at the school of their choice and this year in particular many from Whitelodge were successful in gaining a place at RBS  Upper School which surely must be a testament to the training they have received so far.

 

Hi Kat, 

 

I'm fairly late on the ballet scene so although I will be auditioning everywhere (and I mean everywhere, provided audition dates don't clash), on the off chance that I get in, I'm more likely to go down the teaching route as I think it would be very hard to receive training to be professional outside an US. I assist in teaching Baby, Pre-Primary and Primary ballet classes in exchange for my own classes, I've also recently started a home education GCSE course which means I can get a part-time job (that wasn't why I started the HE course, it's just a plus  ) to pay for private lesson in an attempt to catch up with my peers, and hopefully I'll be able to save enough over the next 2 and half months to pay for a few per week over the summer -I didn't apply to any summer schools this year as I didn't feel I was ready.

 

As to whether I have confidence in UK training: I have the utmost confidence in vocational schools (that's why so many international students apply to UK schools ) , outside of those however, unless you're going to five different schools and taking the same classes at each, I think it's very hard to get enough hours in; at the moment I'm only doing 6 hours/ week (it'll be 10 soon), which I don't feel is anywhere near enough and yet everyone else at my studio is absolutely astounded that I'm taking "that many" classes!

 

I hope your daughter does well in her auditions next year  .

[Nina G.]

Between half and two thirds would mean that there would be 15-20 LS students in the Upper School- this may have been the case 10 years ago, but in recent years less than a quarter of the original Yr 7 students and less than half of the Yr 11 students make it into the upper school. Three years ago only two Upper School students who'd spent any time at the Lower School got a contract with The Royal Ballet and 2 years ago none did.

.. four years ago only one (female) who went to WL & the Upper School got into Royal. Three years ago it was again only one (female) who trained at both. Last year again only one (female) who went to Lower and Upper School got Royal. Don't know about the current Graduate year.