Ballet training in the UK

[sophika9899]

I feel very disloyal saying this but whichever way you look at it, if you put a class of, say, 13 year old vaganova or bolshoi girls next to royal or elmhurst girls of the same age the difference would be startling. The foreign girls would be streets ahead. Not as happy perhaps, not as well rounded, but definitely technically better. By 16 they are no longer looking for potential, they are looking for girls that are at a stage where they need " honing ", training and polishing. Of course they will progress incredibly in the three years at upper school but they need to be ahead of potentially trainable. Our girls may be artistically beautiful but technicality is sadly what they seem to be interested in nowadays.

Slightly off topic, I was looking on some images of young chinese ballet students and their extensions were so high they completely distorted the line they were trying to achieve. One girl was in the most bizarre and ugly arabesque I have seen as her back leg was practiically touching the back of her head and she wasn't leaning her head back at all. But a girl like that will be admired by the ADs who will see her and she will be snapped up.

[PrettyPointes]

I feel very disloyal saying this but whichever way you look at it, if you put a class of, say, 13 year old vaganova or bolshoi girls next to royal or elmhurst girls of the same age the difference would be startling. The foreign girls would be streets ahead. Not as happy perhaps, not as well rounded, but definitely technically better. By 16 they are no longer looking for potential, they are looking for girls that are at a stage where they need " honing ", training and polishing. Of course they will progress incredibly in the three years at upper school but they need to be ahead of potentially trainable. Our girls may be artistically beautiful but technicality is sadly what they seem to be interested in nowadays.

Slightly off topic, I was looking on some images of young chinese ballet students and their extensions were so high they completely distorted the line they were trying to achieve. One girl was in the most bizarre and ugly arabesque I have seen as her back leg was practiically touching the back of her head and she wasn't leaning her head back at all. But a girl like that will be admired by the ADs who will see her and she will be snapped up.

 

This articulates much better the point I was trying to get across  .

[JulieW]

Prettypointes - I think you'll find my figures are pretty accurate. Over the past 10 ish years that I've "known" the students there are on average 12 of each sex in year 11. On average (and I'm stressing the word "average" here because of course it varies slightly year on year) 5 to 8 get into upper school. Most years at upper school there are 14-16 students of each sex. So,I accept perhaps two thirds was maybe a tiny bit high, but certainly it's half or more of the US students were at WL.

 

In fact, haven't they had a good year this year (or last) in that there were about 10 of at least one sex who got into US?

 

Also it's interesting to see that a good number of those were associates.

[JulieW]

On the subject of getting into the company - I only want to add (and I think it's probably already been said) that there are very, very few contracts given into RB or BRB in any year, and sometimes none. Yes, I'd like to see more contracts going to students who came through WL too rather than just "finishing" at US, but there have been quite a few in the last few years (Anna-Rose, Frankie, Ruth, James, Yasmine, Reece, Solomon, Teo - the latter two after a year elsewhere to name just a few and most of these went all through WL).

[hfbrew]

Between half and two thirds would mean that there would be 15-20 LS students in the Upper School- this may have been the case 10 years ago, but in recent years less than a quarter of the original Yr 7 students and less than half of the Yr 11 students make it into the upper school. Three years ago only two Upper School students who'd spent any time at the Lower School got a contract with The Royal Ballet and 2 years ago none did.

[Nina G.]

On the subject of getting into the company - I only want to add (and I think it's probably already been said) that there are very, very few contracts given into RB or BRB in any year, and sometimes none. Yes, I'd like to see more contracts going to students who came through WL too rather than just "finishing" at US, but there have been quite a few in the last few years (Anna-Rose, Frankie, Ruth, James, Yasmine, Reece, Solomon, Teo - the latter two after a year elsewhere to name just a few and most of these went all through WL).

 

That's a total of eight who trained at White Lodge and Upper School (four females/ one each year and four males: Reece, Solomon and Theo joined recently, James joined five years ago, no male joined during the years in between) who got a RB contract ( past five years)

 

On the other hand, a few others joined BRB.

[hfbrew]

Spent ages editing above but got timed out do just left the quote I was trying to respond to.

 

To keep it brief, Julies figures are more accurate. And we should both know as parents and friendss of dcs in very recent years. And "between half and two thirds" would be 12-16 LS students at US anyway as there are rarely more than 24 each year at WL.

 

And as for 2 years ago well, there are now 2 of that years graduates in the Royal Ballet company. All of that year got good contracts in a year that there were fewer than usual jobs available.

 

Edited to say im referring to the post 326 i was trying to do!

Edited May 14, 2014 by hfbrew

[hfbrew]

That's a total of eight who trained at White Lodge and Upper School (four females/ one each year and four males: Reece, Solomon and Theo joined recently, James joined five years ago, no male joined during the years in between) who got a RB contract ( past five years)

 

On the other hand, a few others joined BRB.

Yes and Northern too.

Edited to say its Teo, and dont forget Matthew Ball! or Claire Calvert.

Edited May 14, 2014 by hfbrew

[sophika9899]

JulieW I'm not sure about the associates getting into upper school. This year I don't think any of them did.

[Nina G.]

Yes and Northern too.

Edited to say its Teo, and dont forget Matthew Ball! or Claire Calvert.

Claire Calvert joined the RB seven years ago. I was looking at figures over the past 5 years

[hfbrew]

JulieW I'm not sure about the associates getting into upper school. This year I don't think any of them did.

Well 2 years ago this particular class had 21 ex associates in it. Im sure some of them must have made it especially as Ive heard that its been a very good year for progression to US!

[JulieW]

And let's not forget that getting into the RB company is not a barometer of success. Graduates of our classical schools are getting contracts in excellent companies in the UK and all over the world.

 

I think lots of parents assume when their child gets into WL that they're on a path to the RB - that can never be when there are only a couple of contracts available each year (or sometimes none). Yes, we may all hope that's the final outcome when they go off to the school, but you soon come to realise how things work and that RB isn't the be all and end all.

[aileen]

Julie, do you think that the RBS should be much clearer with the parents about the likelihood of their children (a) graduating from the school and ( getting a contract with the RB? If the School said something like, in the last x years y children went through WL, the US and joined the RB the parents would go into the whole process with no illusions.

[Melody]

I think they're pretty clear already - they do publish the final destinations of their graduating class, and most people can do the maths about how many get into the Royal Ballet and how many don't. I'm not sure if they're so upfront with their number of WL graduates getting into the Upper School, though.

 

One thing that does surprise me is how easily graduates seem to get jobs in companies in other countries. It seems that just about everywhere worldwide is turning out more vocational school graduates than they have places in their companies, so I'm wondering how new graduates get visas to go to companies in other countries that are presumably turning out their own graduates by the ton every year. I know with scientists, you have to prove that there aren't any natives who could do the job a foreigner is applying for, which isn't an easy process. I assume the same is true of performing artists, especially ones who aren't major stars. Now that ballet schools seem to be turning out graduates who are more homogeneous these days, so that they fit more easily into companies in other countries, I'm wondering how companies can justify taking foreign corps members when there must be parades of native graduates wanting the positions.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Melody

[Anna C]

I think that's the kind of research parents should be doing for themselves - where the information is available, obviously. And I think parents should be looking at graduate employment rates for ALL schools they are considering.

 

Would it make that much difference anyway, I wonder, if RBS published the probability of progressing through the whole school to the company? Let's face it, if your child is offered a place at White Lodge, would anyone turn that place down on the basis that getting into Upper School and then into the Company is not all that likely? Probably not.

 

The world of ballet is so competitive with so many obstacles along the way, plus the possibility of injury or even burn-out, all anyone can do is to take the chances when they arise, and see what happens. Yes, the chance of seamless progression through WL, into Upper School and into the Company is very small - but that's nothing new, and it's certainly not limited to RBS. In fact if you make it to Upper School your chances of getting a contract in a classical ballet company are very good - don't they pride themselves on 100% graduate employment rates? That's quite something in this day and age.

 

Edited to add: Melody and I were typing at the same time. :-)

[afab]

Interesting point Melody! One of DD1's French friend just got offered a contract in the US which is truly fantastic for him as he deserves it but one wonders about how and why since I'm sure there are dozens of fantastic American dancers around...

[2dancersmum]

I think that it would be very difficult in any case for RBS to give probability figures as it varies every year according to the intake of students.  They cannot see into the future to know how a child entering WL aged 11 will grow and develop, both physically and in technique and nor can they anticipate injury or even the mind set and attitude of a child aged 11 to 16.  I know it takes a huge amount of dedication in the ballet world but realistically how many people as adults are doing what they dreamed of as a 10/11 year old?  Even the ballet children themselves as they grow up can prefer to move into other areas of dance - and it is not always circumstances they cannot control that determine this.

 

Re the graduates in other companies in other countries - I think you have to remember that not all countries have the visa and proving you are not taking a job from a native - especially from the UK where the whole of the EU is open to graduates.  I wonder also if dancers are employed on seasonal contracts and that gets round some of the visa issues - the fact it is not a permanent position?  Just wondering - I don't actually know.

[Stirrups36]

Can I just point out that we are talking here about the very pinnacle of achievement in the ballet world? These discussions are not confined to ballet, but happen in football, athletics, tennis etc etc etc.

 

So, when mention is made of the dancers at Bolshoi or in China, remember to consider the numbers of potential dancers available in those countries, which hugely outnumbers those with similar potential in the UK.

 

For example, if we considered the top 10% of young dancers in China, that is probably more than the number of young dancers in total in the UK! similarly with Russia. So you will see the equivalent of our very top dancers more often, as sheer numbers mean there will be more in Russia/China/Japan.

 

But of course, for future success, add in the fact that directors (and audiences) don't always want legs up past the ear.

 

So, I reckon UK schools do incredibly well (and increasingly well) in the worldwide market within which we exist. That is why dancers from across the world come here for training. And also why they are so hard to get into.

 

And that's similar if your son wants to play for Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City or whoever. Once they get to under 16 level, they have to compete against the best in the world for full time places. They then may not end up playing for that team, but they are usually snapped up by others and have super careers elsewhere, doing what they love (for a lot more money than ballet dancers though!).

[JulieW]

Re the number of ex-associates at RB Upper School - they are marked with an asterisk in the end of year performance programme.  I've got the almost all of the last 10 years or so at home, but can't get to them at the mo.  

[Kat09]

JulieW I think that in the past a higher percentage of Associates were successful in progressing to US - I think that possibly there has been a change of policy and it was stressed as my DD entered into the SA group that this should not be seen as a gateway to US. Indeed this year,despite being a group of very talented girls only 2 made it through to finals and none were successful. As always I believe that the right school for the dancer will select them and offer them the best route for success - we have a home grown example in Lauretta Summerscales.

[JulieW]

Sorry Kat09 - perhaps I wasn't clear.  I was talking about any of the RBS students having previously been associates - so often the ones at Upper School were at WL before and JAs or MAs before that.  I wasn't talking about the number of SAs who got into Upper School.  You're right that there's rarely any of them.

[BalletDad10]

I'm fairly late on the ballet scene so although I will be auditioning everywhere (and I mean everywhere, provided audition dates don't clash), on the off chance that I get in, I'm more likely to go down the teaching route as I think it would be very hard to receive training to be professional outside an US. I assist in teaching Baby, Pre-Primary and Primary ballet classes in exchange for my own classes, I've also recently started a home education GCSE course which means I can get a part-time job (that wasn't why I started the HE course, it's just a plus) to pay for private lesson in an attempt to catch up with my peers, and hopefully I'll be able to save enough over the next 2 and half months to pay for a few per week over the summer -I didn't apply to any summer schools this year as I didn't feel I was ready.

 

As to whether I have confidence in UK training: I have the utmost confidence in vocational schools (that's why so many international students apply to UK schools), outside of those however, unless you're going to five different schools and taking the same classes at each, I think it's very hard to get enough hours in; at the moment I'm only doing 6 hours/ week (it'll be 10 soon), which I don't feel is anywhere near enough and yet everyone else at my studio is absolutely astounded that I'm taking "that many" classes!

 

PrettyPointes. I'm so impressed with your tenacity and dedication to ballet training when the odds seemed to be stacked against you. This will stand you in good stead whatever you end up doing in life. I think my DD is a fighter too. Regarding summer school, there are so many to choose from that I'm sure you could find one to suit your needs. Have a look at the Summer School threads for more info or to ask questions. Look forward to reading more of your posts and good luck to you.

[BalletDad10]

Some excellent posts flying in on this thread at all hours of the day and night. I'm in Japan so we're 8 hours ahead of you. I was reading your posts last night before going to bed, and while I was having breakfast (after midnight your time), my phone was pinging away. Me with a cup of coffee and you with a glass of something stronger perhaps...

 

Something else to throw in the mix. Do you think the selection criteria for ballet companies are different from those at vocational schools or broadly similar? In other words, what are the chances of getting into a ballet company for dancers that are rejected by UK ballet schools? I'm thinking of late developers, for example, or dancers that don't have the body shape at 16 that the vocational schools are looking for. 

[2dancersmum]

Prettypointes - I would echo the advice to look at a summer school if at all possible.  Hours of weeks of lessons - just remember that quality counts more than quantity. I have no idea of your age or standard but it might be worth an email to amydoughty@welshballet.co.uk to see where you would fit for the Ballet Cymru summer school.  They are in the process of setting up a new web page at the moment so I cannot just point you to their webpage.  The classes are taught by dancers of the company at Riverfront in Newport Wales and are of a very high standard and a good price.  It includes pas de deux with male dancers of the company.  A search of the threads on the forum will give you feedback of peoples past experiences. 

[Moneypenny]

Slightly off topic I know, but from my dd's RBS JA group, many of them went to vocational school at year 7, a few stayed on for MA and subsequently SA and all the ones I can think of have now secured upper school places for September at places like RBS, Elmhurst, Central and Rambert. I guess my point is that there are many former RBS associates in all of the UKs well known ballet schools and many of them do go on to upper school somewhere.

[aileen]

Prettypointes, you seem to have conflated several different points / issues.

 

One: are overseas students more advanced when they apply to upper schools?

 

Two: how likely are you to get into the RB having trained at the School?

 

Three: can you get enough hours of good quality training outside a vocational school to give you a realistic chance of getting into an upper school?

 

The answers to these questions are:

 

Yes, probably because only the very best overseas students apply (many are prize winners at international competitions) and training is more intense at an earlier age.

 

Very unlikely, but you may get a contract with another company in the UK or abroad

 

Yes, but it's very difficult juggling GCSEs and ballet training and it depends on what is available locally.

 

Returning to your situation, I wonder whether you have discussed your ambitions with your teacher.

[JulieW]

Slightly off topic I know, but from my dd's RBS JA group, many of them went to vocational school at year 7, a few stayed on for MA and subsequently SA and all the ones I can think of have now secured upper school places for September at places like RBS, Elmhurst, Central and Rambert. I guess my point is that there are many former RBS associates in all of the UKs well known ballet schools and many of them do go on to upper school somewhere.

 

 

Good point Moneypenny - we were talking RBS associates, WL and US, but you're right that a very high proportion of my son and daughter's JA classes went onto either full-time training at WL, Elmhurst, Tring or Hammond, or got into MAs, then SAs and then various upper schools/dance colleges.

 

Balletdad1064 - to answer your question about how likely someone is to get into a ballet company having been rejected by UK ballet schools (and let's assume other similar schools abroad) - my answer would be, very unlikely.  Yes it happens occasionally, but very, very rarely with girls and slightly more chance with boys who find ballet late - but that depends on the type of company.  

[PrettyPointes]

PrettyPointes. I'm so impressed with your tenacity and dedication to ballet training when the odds seemed to be stacked against you. This will stand you in good stead whatever you end up doing in life. I think my DD is a fighter too. Regarding summer school, there are so many to choose from that I'm sure you could find one to suit your needs. Have a look at the Summer School threads for more info or to ask questions. Look forward to reading more of your posts and good luck to you.

 

Thankyou, BalletDad1064, that's very kind  

I will have another look at summer schools, I think it may be too late for this year but I will definitely apply for next year's courses   

 

Prettypointes - I would echo the advice to look at a summer school if at all possible.  Hours of weeks of lessons - just remember that quality counts more than quantity. I have no idea of your age or standard but it might be worth an email to amydoughty@welshballet.co.uk to see where you would fit for the Ballet Cymru summer school.  They are in the process of setting up a new web page at the moment so I cannot just point you to their webpage.  The classes are taught by dancers of the company at Riverfront in Newport Wales and are of a very high standard and a good price.  It includes pas de deux with male dancers of the company.  A search of the threads on the forum will give you feedback of peoples past experiences. 

2dancersmum, thank you very much for the information  , pas de deux classes would be great! There are no male students over the age of 9 at my studio!

[Legseleven]

It won't be too late to apply for every summer school, PrettyPointes. If you decide to do so, let us know how you get on!

[Jaylou62]

PrettyPointes, there's also Bristol Russian Ballet Summer School. They do Repertoire and Pas de Deux and had students from vocational schools attend for the last two years. Elena Glurdjidze from ENB was a guest teacher last year. The entry is by photo and application forms are on their website. There's also short videos from the last two Summer Schools on the website too (and on You Tube).

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

Yes, the chance of seamless progression through WL, into Upper School and into the Company is very small - but that's nothing new, and it's certainly not limited to RBS. In fact if you make it to Upper School your chances of getting a contract in a classical ballet company are very good - don't they pride themselves on 100% graduate employment rates? That's quite something in this day and age.

 

Edited to add: Melody and I were typing at the same time. :-)

 

I read somewhere that the RBS don't count their Upper School students as graduated until they get a contract in a company. Therefore, if there were students who don't have a contract yet when the school year finishes, would the school not count them as graduates? Therefore it will always be '100% graduate employment rate' because they're only counted if/when they get a contract? I may have got my facts wrong (and would be happy to be corrected if so), but if not, it seems a bit dishonest to me. If it was a university we were talking about, the students would be counted as graduates whether they were already set up with a job or not at the end of their course...

Edited May 15, 2014 by Dancer Sugar Plum

[JulieW]

You also have to be careful looking at employment rates because sometimes the dancers are on a contract for just one run of a production, or an apprenticeship.

[mel]

PrettyPointes i second Jaylou's post about the Bristol Russian Ballet School.  PM me if you like for specifics - really made a difference to my DD.