hfbrew Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Wonderful post Zacharovitti and a timely reminder to us in the UK how lucky we are when it comes to facilities to train dancers. Good luck to you and your dd. Who knows she may take a place at the Royal Ballet School one day. Not sure if there were any new Italians in this years intake but last year there were 5 Italian students out of the 90 students at Upper School. (Am talking over all 3 years.) I think its great that the best students train together regardless of nationality! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacharovitti Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Thank you very much for your kind replies and welcomes......I feel less alone now. Since my DD started to train seriously, I looked for Italian forums on web, to share my doubts with other parents, but I didn't find any.....till I met you! It's so nice the feeling of being part of a community that understands you and your child, supports you, helps you and is truly happy for your progress...! I appreciate very much the comments about my English.....my self-esteem is growing up quickly! 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Wonderful post Zacharovitti and a timely reminder to us in the UK how lucky we are when it comes to facilities to train dancers. Good luck to you and your dd. Who knows she may take a place at the Royal Ballet School one day. Not sure if there were any new Italians in this years intake but last year there were 5 Italian students out of the 90 students at Upper School. (Am talking over all 3 years.) I think its great that the best students train together regardless of nationality! There are 8 Italian students in the first year intake into RBS Upper School this year. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 There are 8 Italian students in the first year intake into RBS Upper School this year. Wow! Possibly some sort of record, congratulations to them all and I hope they are not suffering too much in our soggy climate! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecatsmother Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Thought this might be of interest 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifeafterballet Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Thank you !! That was very interesting ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Wow. It's not entirely clear but do they start some kids full time training at 8?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach3 Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) Relevant to this thread. http://balletnews.co.uk/elmhurst-school-for-dance-report-highlights-access-to-excellence/ Edited February 16, 2014 by Peach3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Loved the SAB documentary - thank you for posting it, Balleteacher. It was also interesting to see that in the really fast sections as well as in allegro pointe work - that heel did not come down to fully contact the floor. There has been quite a bit of discussion over the years as to whether Balanchine taught this or it somehow it was erroneously attributed to him. A friend of mine who is a retired NYCB Principal Dancer, when she returned to teach as a guest teacher at the school, asked Balanchine about this. She told me he emphatically stated the heel should contact the floor fully. And, yet, others claim otherwise. Why would it make a difference? I read - but cannot personnally vouch for it - that when Baryshnikov joined the company he found that not putting the heel down severely tested his Achilles tendon and he had to leave the company (by mutual agreement) sooner than the contract originally stated. For a dancer trained to put the heel down suddenly having to change this basic technique, it could be a serious issue. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I noticed that too. Was it simply that there was not time in the enchainements seen in the video? Or that the teachers were looking for deeper plié at the expense of the heels? It's an interesting topic of discussion amongst dance scientists at the moment. Most technique teachers would be horrified by the suggestion of ballet dancers NOT putting their heels down, but those more curious/inquisitive scientists are asking why this is, or where this 'rule' came from. Some say that a sprinter, hurdler or jumper (concerned therefore with maximum power to project themselves as far up or forwards as they can) never puts their heels down - the reason for this is that you apparently get a more efficient push-off into a jump from a position with the heel slightly lifted. There is also now some consensus within biomechanics research that if you fully stretch a muscle immediately before contracting it, that the power produced is reduced. This therefore suggests that forcing the heels down in plié would reduce the height in a subsequent jump. Personally I felt that the heels lifting as much as in the SAB footage looked untidy, and ballet is of course an aesthetic art form. Perhaps I prefer a tidy plié and a slightly lower jump in my ballet dancers! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I noticed that too. Was it simply that there was not time in the enchainements seen in the video? Or that the teachers were looking for deeper plié at the expense of the heels? It's an interesting topic of discussion amongst dance scientists at the moment. Most technique teachers would be horrified by the suggestion of ballet dancers NOT putting their heels down, but those more curious/inquisitive scientists are asking why this is, or where this 'rule' came from. Some say that a sprinter, hurdler or jumper (concerned therefore with maximum power to project themselves as far up or forwards as they can) never puts their heels down - the reason for this is that you apparently get a more efficient push-off into a jump from a position with the heel slightly lifted. There is also now some consensus within biomechanics research that if you fully stretch a muscle immediately before contracting it, that the power produced is reduced. This therefore suggests that forcing the heels down in plié would reduce the height in a subsequent jump. Personally I felt that the heels lifting as much as in the SAB footage looked untidy, and ballet is of course an aesthetic art form. Perhaps I prefer a tidy plié and a slightly lower jump in my ballet dancers! It seems to me that the goals for a sprinter, hurdler or jumper is quite different than for a ballet dancer. They have basically one or two goals: speed and/or power but almost always within the same movement (hurdling, for instance) and within same direction. The dancer, however, sometimes needs power for a high jump, at other times speed for petit allegro and very often changes of direction. And sometimes all of the above. Thus, while the hurdler (for instance) has two basic techniques to learn - running and jumping - all in the same direction, the ballet dancer has many goals to accomplish. This, I think, puts additional strain on the body and the incorporation of technique. I do know that when I or my students - or Baryshnikov dancing with NYCB - didn't put our heels down, Achilles tendonitis was often the result. Now, one might ask - how come the dancers at NYCB don't have this problem? Well, I'm not sure we know that they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecatsmother Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I just love watching the Balanchine style. The speed of footwork is amazing. Be interesting to hear what other Balanchine dancers said re the speed versus accuracy debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecatsmother Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 This is interesting to contrast with Paris Opera training. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Interesting debate of the use of demi-pointe instead of heels fully down. I have noticed that this years Prix de Lausanne's 2nd prize winner used the releves from demi-pointe when doing the last arabesque bits of the first Shade's variation from La Bayadere _ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUQJBD6iRzQ Then , in Bolshoi version, the same arabesque releves are done with her heel fully down each time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBGYLVhW2lQ The first dancer (15 years old) is trained in Japan... Edited February 18, 2014 by mimi66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double trouble Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I asked my DDs who are doing Vaganova training they said the heel would have to be down in their classes. Must admit I thought young girl was lovely to watch and she is only 15 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think it looks much crisper and more finished when the heel goes down. My previous dance teacher would have killed me if I had ever done it the other way! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) My teacher would kill me too, if I was caught without putting my heels down... (hasten to add that I would not be dancing that variation anyway - not anywhere good enough). I just remembered that, there are a lot of ex-ABT dancers on the judge panel at this year's Prix de Lausanne - indeed the head judge was the head of ABT school. Edited February 19, 2014 by mimi66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regattah Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think you may mean SAB, Mimi, which would make sense with the heel down/up debate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Neither am I good enough, Mimi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think you may mean SAB, Mimi, which would make sense with the heel down/up debate! Yes, you are right, Regattah... I got a bit confused here... So the SAB connection to this year's Prix is Kay Mazzo - co-chairman of Faculty. When I refferred to ex-ABT dancers I was thinking of Alex Ferri and Julio Bocca, so I don't think there is any SAB connections here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Fiz, (somehow "liking|" doesn't feel right here). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
along for the ride mum Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2012/mar/25/will-they-make-royal-ballet I found this facinating and relevant to this thread but I've just noticed the date an it isn't new so I may just be duplicating! Edited February 21, 2014 by along for the ride mum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billyelliott Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Yes indeed this was posted earlier in this thread ! But it is good reading ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
along for the ride mum Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Oops, I mUst have missed it earlier, sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalletDad10 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Some fascinating posts here. We live in Japan and according to DD's teacher, a Brit who has lived here for over 20 years, the level of ballet is very high technically but less so artistically. There are ballet competitions (concours) held all over the country throughout the year, and students from Japan often feature in the Prix de Lausanne. This year Japanese dancers finished 1st(M), 2nd(F) and 6th(M). From a personal point of view, I think that DD is getting a balance of both East and West, the high technical demands and work ethic of the former, and the expression and imagination of the latter. She also does summer schools in the UK which we both love. FYI she went on pointe at 11y 9m. I delayed it as long as possible. I took her to the doctor for X-rays so we could check if her bones had ossified sufficiently. All her peers were on pointe before her so I wasn't popular. Here's an article relevant to our discussion which might deserve a thread of its own. Did anyone catch them in Ealing? "Ballet's Gillian Lynne and Beryl Grey: Dancers should be pushed to the limit" http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2014/feb/12/ballet-grand-dames-gillian-lynne-bery-grey-push-dancers-limit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 BalletDad1064, I couldn't get your link to work, but found the article using Google. Some of the comments at the bottom of the article are very interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalletDad10 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Oh. I'll try that link again: http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2014/feb/12/ballet-grand-dames-gillian-lynne-bery-grey-push-dancers-limit#start-of-comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecatsmother Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Interesting article. I think it is hard to compare two eras which have both similar and different challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Half of that article makes me really angry although I agree with the last part - but my feelings are summed up in a couple of comments made by someone else on the Guardian page itself: "alright for them, but the ones who were physically ruined by it had to leave and suffered in anonymity, we won't hear from them - the famous ones of the past are a self-selecting group for whom that regime worked fine, and we only hear from them" and "Some of those "underweight" dancers ended up with osteoporosis decades earlier than they should have. Today's dancers benefit from the same improved knowledge of the human body that athletes now have available to them." 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeliB Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 This seems to happen in all disciplines though- it reminds me very much of the huffing that went on in the medical profession when it was suggested that junior Drs shouldn't be expected to work 100 hours weeks. A kind of 'I had to do it so don't be so wet' attitude. The fact that the evidence shows that as a result many Drs dropped out, had nervous breakdowns or accidentally killed their patients is quietly forgotten. I guess it's a kind of jealousy on the part of those who survived the old (more terrible) system- they feel somehow unrewarded or undervalued if they sense that it's now 'easier'..... 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mallinson Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 A posting has been removed for contravening our usage policy by quoting a newspaper article in full. For copyright reasons this is not allowed. (See the last paragraph of our Community guidelines.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalletDad10 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Sorry about that folks. I really agree with the points you both made re the previous article. But I wonder whether we/I sometimes wrap our children in cotton wool, not just in a ballet context. Here's a link to another article with relevance to many of the themes on this excellent thread: "Why do dancers get injured so often?" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/dance/10580011/Why-do-dancers-get-injured-so-often.html Looking forward to your insights as always. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I think there are a couple of things in play when it comes to injuries. From what I've read dancers didn't use to perform as frequently s they do now. Natalia Makarova mentions this in her autobiography Time off was truly time off - not just an opportunity to dance somewhere else. The technical demands were not as consuming. Turnout was not as severe. Extensions were not as high, jumps not as complex, lifts not as daring, etc. I'm not sure how valid it is to compare dance to sport. Many sports have some sort of protective gear either worn or part of the set up. It usually doesn't matter how one looks while scoring a point. The venue is often very specialized. However, that doesn't mean we should not be ready to learn whatever there may be that might aid the dancer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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