British born dancers and the global ballet market

[aileen]

Ribbons, do many British students who are not already at White Lodge audition for the Upper School?

[balletla]

I wouldn't know but I would guess that most students auditioning for ballet for 16+ training would audition for Upper School as well as all the others. I am only familiar with what has happened over the last few years due to friends children being involved (not my own) and I think it is only the odd one from SAs or another vocational school that gets offered a place but most come from white lodge and the rest from overseas.

[tomuchtallent]

I dont think there is any problem with the british dancers.Its the best students from all over the world who are auditioning for schools and companies.The Uk is tiny!!

Its exactly the same if you look at football teams!Your competing with the world.If the UK students are not good enough how could they get into the schools,are they only taking them because of mds funding?i dont think so.If the training was not good why do the best of the world want to train here!

 

Primrose,regards to what you said earlier about successful foriegn neighbours,

I live with a very big international community from all over.I am british,and my kids were born in the UK.It was a big shock to me when i saw how parents from other parts of the world are with thier children.I have never heard of this extream in the UK.Most of the parents i know push their kids so much.If thier child is good at something then that child must sacrifice everything else and put hours and hours of practice in.I havent seen this with ballet here but definatly with sport and music.Some of the kids are now home schooled and some put in 2 hours of training in before school starts and straight after school they continue!

I dont think this is fair at all but their kids are so fantastic in their field.Also most of them are the only child and the parent/s dont work so they dedicate thier time only to the child.

I think in the UK we support our children, but i have seen with my own eyes what parents expect from their children and push them to the extream.But as i said their kids are outstanding at what they do.

Is it right or wrong? i dont know,

Edited March 25, 2012 by tomuchtallent

[primrose]

For me its wrong. I think the child should be allowed to have a childhood and also have different experiences in life. Having worked in different primary schools I am aware of how much extra is expected from some of the foreign students academicaly. These children seem to just accept it as it is just normal to them. However I am British and brought up in the British way so I can not imagine pushing my child that hard. My dd has always been told that if there is ever a time she wants to change her mind about dancing then she must do what she feels is right for her.

[Nina G.]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15337826

 

Interesting...

[Anjuli_Bai]

If what that one particular respondent at the Guardian is saying is true - regarding private sponsors for foreign studenst and thus preferential treatment - that is truly sad. That would be a heartbreaker for other dance students.

 

It does make one wonder why the British graduates are good enough for other companies but somehow not good enough for the upper ranks of the RB.

[Nina G.]

It does make one wonder why the British graduates are good enough for other companies but somehow not good enough for the upper ranks of the RB.

 

That is indeed the question Mr Luke Jennings (and the British ballet going public!) is asking.

[aileen]

I am coming to the conclusion that the reason that British students struggle to get into the UK companies (and make it to the top) is a combination of the following factors:

 

1. The UK is an attractive place to train, work and live in.

2. Many young people from overseas have a powerful incentive to excel in something like ballet as it enables them to escape poverty and leave their home countries.

3. There is generous funding for training in the UK

4. The overseas students who come into the schools are exceptionally strong technically, mentally and in terms of self-confidence.

5. They are strong technically because they have trained intensively from a young age, something which is disapproved of (and difficult to do) in the UK.

6. They are strong mentally because they have been able to leave their families and countries behind at a young age.

7. They are self-confident because they have generally come into the schools after winning international competitions leading to scholarships. Do UK students take part in these competitions to the same extent?

[rowan]

While I agree with most of Aileen's list, I'm not so sure about either point 2 or some of point 4.

 

2: If you set aside much of the former Soviet bloc, the majority of foreign children (I suppose I mean American/Japanese) will be wealthy enough to afford huge numbers of ballet lessons and pay for home schooling if they're not at vocational school, although no doubt some will be on scholarships. They will also be paying out huge sums to enter the big competitions like YAGP, which are viewed as important for "being seen" .

4: The Guardian article did say the RBS British pupils were "formidably technically assured".

 

I did notice in the photograph of the two dancers - an angle no doubt carefully chosen by the photographer - was a poster advertising Anna Pavlova, the great Russian ballerina...

[Nina G.]

The RBS trained students have a very solid technic BUT is that technic valued by the Company? As a Dance teacher I base my question on the fact that the RBS Graduates (the very few who were lucky enough to have been offered a contract) linger in the Corps for many years (and most stay there), only a few lucky ones will make it to First Artist after a couple of years, and it takes many another 7 or 8 years before they may finally become a Soloist. But if you look at the RB promotions over the past years it is very often the non-RBS trained dancer who gets promoted the fastest! Can one conclude the RBS technic is of no importance in order to make it through the ranks? The Japanese and Americans have a different technic seemingly far more advantageous - and valued - if one is to make it past the Corps, and faster.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but for the past decade or so we only have Lauren,Rupert and Ed - as former RBS (White Lodgers) trained dancers- who have made it past Soloist level. It took them ages.

[alison]

Correct me if I am wrong but for the past decade or so we only have Lauren,Rupert and Ed - as former RBS (White Lodgers) trained dancers- who have made it past Soloist level. It took them ages.

 

And Darcey and Jonny - or did you mean ones who've passed Soloist in the last decade (in which case that would barely include Ed)? What about Helen Crawford and Bennet Gartside? I don't have their biogs to hand, but I didn't get the impression that they'd come in from elsewhere. And of course I think Ricardo Cervera and Laura Morera came right the way up through White Lodge, although technically of course they're Spanish . Lauren's rise didn't take ages: she was dancing Juliet after, what, 2 or 3 years in the company? And Rupert's was certainly delayed by injuries - he was originally scheduled to be dancing Lensky in 2001. As for dancers who joined the company in the mid to late 90s, which includes Ed, I still maintain that by and large their careers were effectively set back by a year or two due to the Company being out of the ROH and being reliant on the usual warhorses, which didn't tend to give corps dancers much opportunity for upward movement.

[Anna C]

Wasn't Rupert assessed out of White Lodge?

[Nina G.]

or did you mean ones who've passed Soloist in the last decade (in which case that would barely include Ed)?

Yes

 

Lauren's rapid rise, if my memory serves me right, was rather pure "luck" in the sense that several other dancers who were down to dance that role were injured. Sure, she got the opportunity and grab it but if that hadn't happened I wonder how long it would have taken Lauren to get out. We can only guess.

[aileen]

Nina G, perhaps the RBS's training is not as good as it thinks it is. There's possibly a bit of arrogance which prevents them from looking at what the best schools abroad are doing and adapting where appropriate. I also wonder if the School could be out of touch with what companies are looking for in their dancers today. Perhaps what the companies regard as good technique is different from what the RBS considers to be good technique (I imagine that the benchmark moves ever higher).

[bangorballetboy]

Well, Luke Jennings' article has produced some lively responses. What I'm not clear about is who provides the funding for the overseas students. Is it the Prix de Lausanne organisation, the schools themselves or the British taxpayer?

 

I note that some of the comments on the Observer article (including the one to which I think you are principally referring) would fall foul of the acceptable use policy of this forum, however, that should not stop us from having in depth discussions on the issues surrounding the Royal Ballet School. There are some details on where funding comes from in the school's most recent annual report: http://www.royal-bal...t_2009-2010.pdf (see in particular the chairman's report). As far as I am aware, overseas students (who make up less than an quarter of the students) are funded either by themselves, through school bursaries (often sponsored by companies or individuals) or through support from institutions like the Nureyev Foundation.

[bangorballetboy]

If what that one particular respondent at the Guardian is saying is true - regarding private sponsors for foreign studenst and thus preferential treatment - that is truly sad. That would be a heartbreaker for other dance students.

 

It does make one wonder why the British graduates are good enough for other companies but somehow not good enough for the upper ranks of the RB.

 

The comment on the Observer article is unsubstantiated rumour posted by an anonymous person (which would probably breach this forum's acceptable use policy) and doesn't reflect (in my opinion) the reality on the ground. It would be worrying if it were the case but there is no evidence to suggest it is true!

[Jan McNulty]

In respect of post no #146, which suggests that a dancer's rapid rise was due to "luck": surely that could, (and has), happen(ed) with many people. In all walks of life there is an element of "being in the right place at the right time". The talent must also be there though.

[aileen]

Bangorballetboy, I didn't repeat any of the comments made in response to Luke Jennings' article. I think that it is reasonable to ask questions about the funding of students at the RBS, particularly in these difficult economic times. I don't understand why I am at fault here. I will read the RBS's annual report.

[Anjuli_Bai]

The comment on the Observer article is unsubstantiated rumour posted by an anonymous person (which would probably breach this forum's acceptable use policy) and doesn't reflect (in my opinion) the reality on the ground. It would be worrying if it were the case but there is no evidence to suggest it is true!

 

 

That is why in my post I said:

 

 

"If what that one particular respondent at the Guardian is saying is true "

[bangorballetboy]

I don't understand why I am at fault here.

 

I'm struggling to see where I suggested that you were.

 

All I have done is remind people (albeit in response to your post) that the comment on the Observer piece which has triggered much discussion is one which would probably not have been allowed on this forum.

[Nina G.]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/15350212

 

I am really surprised to read this

[alison]

Lauren's rapid rise, if my memory serves me right, was rather pure "luck" in the sense that several other dancers who were down to dance that role were injured. Sure, she got the opportunity and grab it but if that hadn't happened I wonder how long it would have taken Lauren to get out. We can only guess.

 

You must be thinking of someone else, assuming you're talking about her Juliet. We'd heard that it was happening I'd guess the best part of 6 months ahead of the scheduled performances, and indeed Monica Mason gave both Lauren and Ed a "try-out" in the roles during an insight day in the Linbury sometime before that, so the announcement wasn't unexpected.

[balletla]

@aileen and anjuli - just to let you know that my post was removed completely so don't feel too bad about your slight reprimand!

[Nina G.]

The debate has gone very quite all of a sudden.... Has Bangerballetboy' s deleting a post anything to do with this?

[Paul N]

Well, I'll add my view which is something like this:

 

Luke's article is good in terms of having the debate, and I congratulate him on that, but to be honest, to me, the article seems to mainly present theories and perceptions - I can't see that it presents much in the way of actual evidence that shows the RBS isn't doing a very good job for both the British and overseas students it trains. Certainly, some of the statistics look stark, but who is to say - and importantly, on what basis - that they are unusually poor? There aren't many of these elite schools around, and I imagine they all have unique circumstances, so making comparisons would be difficult I think. Bearing in mind that the RB only takes on a very few young dancers each year, and that both it and the RBS look for the best from around the world, it does not seem surprising that very few make it all the way from the first year at White Lodge into the RB. The 'rest of the world' factor also accounts for the paucity of British dancers in the top rank(s) - their are only a few top rank places and the rest of the world is a very big place.

 

The one statistic that does look low to me is that only around a quarter of the starters make it to graduation - why can't that be higher? But I don't really have a feel for how right or wrong that figure is.

 

We've talked about some of the comments in the Guardian - well, read 'fulhamfan''s posts of 26/27 March - I find him/her persuasive.

 

The issues for me from the article are, firstly, the claim about "the school's increasingly narrow physical ideal" (and that students may be assessed out for failing to meet this). If it is true that the ideal is becoming increasingly narrow, then I don't really understand why. Who is driving this, and for what reason? I don't think it's what the audience wants is it?

 

Secondly, and related to that, the point about the importance of company "identity or unanimity of style" (which seems to be one of the arguments for increasing the proportion of company dancers who have trained for most of their years at the RBS). Again, I'm not sure what the evidence is of a significant lack of company style in the RB. The one thing I remember from their La Bayadere a few years ago was not their 'star principals', but that their Shades were breathtaking. I guess that some would say that they don't dance Ashton as they should (and some I think say they can't do MacMillan either!), but I would put this down to insufficient practice and an increasingly wide repertoire rather than the company being fundamentally unable to dance Ashton through having a too high proportion of foreign trained dancers. I'd be interested to hear what those who know the RB a lot better than I do think. Company style is often raised as something important, but is it really so, in the case of a company like the RB which has such a wide rep.? Don't styles go with works (choreographers) rather than with companies?

[John Mallinson]

Paul, Thanks for that. I've always struggled with the much bruited concept of company style (it almost seems to deserve capital letters).

 

As far as the Royal Ballet goes I have assumed (maybe wrongly) that it is based on the ability to dance Ashton as he would have wanted. In other words a certain sort of flexibility of the trunk, épaulement, soft arms and fast feet. I've always found it difficult to accept that such things can not be taught to dancers trained elsewhere, though years of dancing, say, Balanchine might make that more difficult.

 

Is there much more to this than I appreciate? or is the mystique surrounding company style rather exaggerated?

[aileen]

Quite a few of the more senior dancers at the RB and ENB are recruited from outside the company which blocks promotion of dancers (wherever they were born and trained) within the company.

 

To be fair to the companies, there must be a great deal of subjectivity involved when evaluating dancers, particularly young dancers. I am guessing that when they are starting out very few are strong all round. Some may be less than ideal physically; some may be weaker technically; some may not have much acting ability; some may be a bit "nervy". It then comes down to how an AD looks at you in the context of the upcoming repertoire. One may overlook the physical limitations if, for example, s/he thinks that you are very strong technically. Another may forgive a poorer technique if you are a good actor. Luck undoubtedly plays an important part in any dancer's success: luck that you are the kind of dancer that appeals to the AD; luck in the form of the repertoire being rehearsed; luck that the dancer who would have taken the role that you are offered (in which you manage to excel) is unavailable. And once you have impressed in a number of small roles you will be offered larger roles leading to promotions. My feeling is that technique and confidence are prized above physique and acting ability in young dancers and that British dancers possess less of the former than their foreign-born peers. If you look at the current principals in the RB, some of them have physical limitations and yet they have made it to the top. I think that lesser acting ability would generally be something that ADs would be a bit indulgent of, taking the view that this could be developed over a period of time.

 

 

[Anjuli_Bai]

My view for what its worth.....in reply to some of the thoughts raised in posts above...

 

 

 

I think company style is not quite as distinct as it used to be. Whoever thought that NYCB would dance Swan Lake? The Kirov/Mariinsky does a fine job of dancing Balanchine. As dancers move across borders, i.e. Russians free to come west, western dancers/students beginning to go to Russia, Cuban and Chinese/Japanese dancers going everywhere, etc., the distinctions will blur more and more.

 

Principals tend to move around more (they have that advantage) and so I think the one item which truly shows a company style is the corps de ballet. One can see the easy cohesiveness of dancers who have come through the feeder school together such as POB, Mariinsky, NYCB, RB, etc. This becomes starkly visible in a ballet such as La Bayadere's Kingdom of the Shades. Companies with hugely diverse corps like ABT, do manage it, but the dancers of the corps have to really concentrate on it - it's not as "built in."

 

Companies can and do take on the styles of the particular ballet they are performing such as in Bournonville - but it is not bone of their bone - it isn't intrinsic - it's closer to the "surface" than from a deeper level - such as it is to the Danish Royal Ballet. The school not only feeds the company it also serves its heritage.

 

There are some styles, however, which don't translate well from company to company - the Bolshoi comes to mind. I can't see another company dancing Spartacus quite like they do. I think it's not only their schooling - but that huge stage that they have grown up learning to dominate. Think of the tiny ballerinas of days gone by such as Plisetskaya, Ulanova, others - who had no problem filling that huge empty space. Whereas, the Danes have a small space - yet they knnow how to make it look large.

 

Nureyev once said (paraphrase here) that Americans and Russians dance similarly because they come from countries with a large land mass - and it is part of their thought pattern and becomes a movement pattern.

 

I haven't seen the RB many times in live performance (I did review it some yrs ago for this site) but I have seen them many times on video. My impression has always been that the company is known for its integrity, neatness, attention to detail and a bit of understated fire. All good assets - which I enjoy. I don't expect them to be the Bolshoi or vice versa.

 

I think it is also important to remember that there are dancers in the corps who enjoy dancing at that level. The work is extremely difficult (much easier to dance a solo than to match 24 others). It should never be considered as a failure if one doesn't move on to other sections of the company - such as soloist.

 

I judge a company more by its corps de ballet than its principals. In a stable environment the corps represents more closely the artistic direction and teaching and the vision of the company's heritage, intent and style.

[bangorballetboy]

...If you look at the current principals in the RB, some of them have physical limitations and yet they have made it to the top. I think that lesser acting ability would generally be something that ADs would be a bit indulgent of, taking the view that this could be developed over a period of time.

 

I would say that in the current crop of RB principals there are a couple whose development of their own acting ability over time evidences this point quite nicely.

[bangorballetboy]

I think it is also important to remember that there are dancers in the corps who enjoy dancing at that level. The work is extremely difficult (much easier to dance a solo than to match 24 others). It should never be considered as a failure if one doesn't move on to other sections of the company - such as soloist.

 

I judge a company more by its corps de ballet than its principals. In a stable environment the corps represents more closely the artistic direction and teaching and the vision of the company's heritage, intent and style.

 

Hear hear.

[Anna C]

I think one of the article's most pertinent points is the confidence the children lack because of the atmosphere of fear surrounding their places. Who can work at their best with the threat of an axe hanging over their heads?

 

I don't just talk about RBS here as of course it isn't the only school which assesses out, BUT, if I am correct, it's the only school which assesses out in Year 7 (is that correct?).

 

Mind you, even my daughter's Associate Class assesses children out, and approaching that Assessment class there is a heightened stress level which, in young teenagers, can pretty much blow any performance skills out of the window as they're all anxiously awaiting their results.

 

Even in the schools where children aren't routinely assessed out until Year 9, I get the feeling that the Assessment process is not transparent in the least, and often an "unsatisfactory" result comes without any warning. Who would put up with that in their profession? One day you're working happily, thinking everything is fine; the next "Sorry, you're sacked".

 

At the moment, my (non-Vocational) daughter is growing at a rate of knots. Her hypermobile joints are struggling with a lack of supporting strength from her surrounding muscles, and she's having temporary trouble getting over onto the platform of her left pointe shoe. Her local teacher and the dance physio are carefully guiding her through this tricky period (which they both say is completely temporary and normal service will be resumed).

 

Yet I can't help feeling relieved - for the first time - that she's NOT at Vocational School at the moment, as I have a nasty feeling that some schools may have deemed her "unsatisfactory" during this time of fast growth.

 

Do schools in other countries Assess Out? Is the process done with more transparency than it is here? Do you get warning, and a probationary period while teachers help you resolve issues? Is the Assessment process in this country contributing to the poor likelihood of making it all the way through WL, into US, and into the company?

[glowlight]

Personally the thing I love most about ballet is a good Corps and I often find solos quite dull. Perhaps schools focus heavily on training for corps because

1) (Almost) everyone has to go through the Corps

2) It is so tough. I remember my dd telling me when we came to watch her in Swan Lake when she was at school that the toughest part was when they had to stand on stage in the same position for about 10 minutes.

 

I also think we are forgetting how very few positions there are globally for soloist level dancers. There are some at this rank who originate from the UK, but perhaps considering how small the population in the UK is we shouldn't be surprised that there are so few.

[aileen]

I would like to know how many students are on average assessed out of the RBS each year. For example, of the 24 or so students who enter White Lodge in year 7 how many are asked to leave during that first year? What proportion is assessed out in each subsequent year, on average? I assume that the greatest "churn" occurs at the end of year 11. I read elsewhere on this site that 14 out of the current year 11 students (who number 25) were offered places at the Upper School, which is an unusually high number. I don't know how many of them are British and neither do I know how many of them started in year 7. Does anyone else?