British born dancers and the global ballet market

[BankruptMum]

Also the connection is perhaps more to do with day-to-day stuff than where the graduates go (as we've already touched on, there just aren't enough contracts to go round even if the students were all amazing!). For instance, the links between Elmhurst and BRB have gone from strength to strength over the last few years, with BRB dancers regularly coming into the school to teach or take masterclasses, and the students are "used" in BRB productions. I believe the same happens with RBS and RB (I have to admit I've been slightly "miffed" in the past that BRB use RB students, whereas it doesn't happen the other way round).

 

The Elmhurst upper school students also get to take class occasionally with BRB (maybe only the graduate year).

 

Elmhurst do benefit greatly by the teaching and opportunities which BRB offer the school but I'm not sure this changes the number of students they take directly from the school into the company. As Assemble Mum stated companies will take who they like regardless of where they have come from.

[tomuchtallent]

How many places are available for white lodge and the upper school?

[aileen]

Moneypenny, don't get downhearted. Just concentrate on the here and now and allow yourself to enjoy with your dd the journey so far (I sound like a judge from The X Factor!). You don't know how things will turn out but if your dd doesn't try she will always regret it.

[glowlight]

I echo Aileen's comments.

 

It is about the journey, and whether or not your dd ends up being a dancer in the long run, the experiences she is having now will help her in what ever future she is destined for. And they should be wonderful experiences to look back on when she is older.

[Anjuli_Bai]

An education, and that includes a dance education, is never lost. The skills learned, the discipline, dedication, musicality and how to move with grace and assurance - the appreciation for the arts and hard work of others, all will stay with the dance student whether that student remains in dance as a career or not. Education is never lost.

 

And there are many other careers in which dance would be an important component: teaching (dance or not) almost any art form, physiotherapist, designing (almost anything), writing (learning how to sequence thought isn't very different from sequencing movement), child care, homemaking - everything will be enhanced by what was learned in those years of ballet classes.

[Ian Macmillan]

Luke Jennings has a long piece on the Royal Ballet School in today's Observer, though I'm not sure how much more light it throws on this discussion:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2012/mar/25/will-they-make-royal-ballet

[Anna C]

Thanks for posting the article Ian. Mr Jennings has clearly been thinking and researching hard since he wrote an article a while back questioning the work ethic of British ballet students and dancers....very interesting.

[DancingPixie]

I think it touches on two points - one, whether the RB should be free to pick who they want irregardless of whether they are RB trained, and two, whether by restricting themselves to a larger proportion of RB trained dancers they could achieve a more cohesive style.

 

Ed for typo...

Edited March 25, 2012 by DancingPixie

[aileen]

The statistics quoted in the article are stark. It's interesting what he said about some of the other ballet companies. I repeat a point that I made earlier: the ballet schools in the UK (certainly post-16) are international schools that happen to be located in the UK, and the RB and ENB are international companies which also happen to be located in the UK. I don't know if you would say the same thing about BRB and NB. Although we have been considering the fate of British born students the position of British trained dancers is not much better. Most of the senior dancers in the UK companies trained abroad particularly at the RB and at ENB.

[Danceemum]

Elmhurst does not claim to be a feeder school to any company. Its full title is Elmhurst School for Dance in Association with Birmingham Royal Ballet. Juliew has already mentioned ways in which the association is visible on a day to day basis and this is a great benefit to the students, wherever they end up dancing.

[Anna C]

No, you're right Willow, although one would hope that Robert Parker will keep strengthening the links between the school and BRB. RBS however does call itself "The school for the Royal Ballet and Birmingham Royal Ballet". To have even one year with no WL students making it through US and into the company is worrying indeed.

[aileen]

With reference to my earlier post and the overseas companies which Luke Jennings mentions, I think that the Russian ones should not be compared with the RB as historically they didn't take many students from outside the Soviet Union, as far as I am aware, and it was not really possible for westerners to join Russian ballet companies. Without wishing to offend anyone, I think that the French (powers that be) have always taken a protectionist approach to all things French and I can't believe that it is just coincidence that POB take most of their dancers from their school. I'm sure that I read somewhere that foreign nationals cannot get funding to train at POB School. NYCB are probably the best company to compare with the RB. Is it really the case that most/many of their dancers are homegrown? I don't think that this is the case (at least at the senior levels) at ABT. Why is there this difference between the two companies, if this difference does in fact exist?

 

IMO, the English style has largely disappeared from the UK ballet companies and those dancers who embrace more of that style are probably overlooked by ADs in favour of the showier, more athletic dancers.

[Anna C]

I wonder if the situation would be different - and the loss of the "English style" less marked if Gailene Stock had been a product of White Lodge?

[rowan]

The Russian companies are starting to open up to Westerners. An American girl, Keenan Kampa, has recently joined the Mariinsky, and there's another with Eifman Ballet in St Petersburg.

[primrose]

I just wonder why our British dancers dont seem to be as successfull as our Foriegn neighbours. What is going wrong in Britain, and its not just ballet either. We dont seem to do as well in say like Gymnastics, tennis, Ice scating etc. Has Britain gone so PC that it is affecting the training, is it money or is it that Britain doesnt have the potential talent which I do not believe for one minute. I am not pointing the finger at our schools (vocational or privately) but something is not right, because I do think that lots of children in this country want to work hard, will give the extra hours and do have the self dicipline and determination. Before I get shot down in flames for asking uncomfortable questions we have to remember that we are a paying public be that privately or by the Govenment so in my mind I have the right to ask.

[aileen]

Apart from POB, I would be very interested in finding out about ballet companies in, say, Germany, Italy and The Netherlands. Do they recruit most of their dancers from the schools in their countries or are a lot of their dancers "imported" as in the UK?

[Jan McNulty]

I've just had a look at the NYCB website. Of 22 principals listed, 3 did not go to SAB at all - one Spaniard (trained in Spain), one Spaniard (trained in San Francisco) and one French (trained in France).

 

Perusing the biographies, not all of the SAB-trained principals went there at the youngest age (they take students from 6) and some only did the last couple of years (equivalent of US?).

 

SAB is described as the official school of NYCB so perhaps it is not surprising that most of the dancers come from that school.

[Anjuli_Bai]

SAB was established as a feeder school to NYCB from the very beginning. It also trains to a certain style and was originally to serve a particular "vision" - and to a great extent still does.

 

ABT is quite diverse and always has been.

[assemble mum]

_{In the article from the guardian it asserts that several of the dancers are dancing in fear. This shows how the british cohort have had their confidence knocked out of them. When the overseas students arrive at RBS upper school they have confidence in spades. They are totally self assured and openly say that they are the best in their own country which is reflected in their dancing. Even if they make technical mistakes in class their confidence carries them through. Many of the british children will worry endlessly over the tiniest mistake. They do not believe they are one of the worlds best. They dont even believe that they are the best in an empty room}

Edited March 25, 2012 by assemble mum

[Nina G.]

Post 118: How very very true this is!

Edited March 25, 2012 by ninag

[rowan]

_{They dont even believe that they are the best in an empty room}

 

Gosh... That's a shocker.

[dancemad]

 

 

SAB is described as the official school of NYCB so perhaps it is not surprising that most of the dancers come from that school.

 

I think I am right in saying that NYCB do not ever hold company auditions. Company members are either selected from SAB or invited from other companies join NYCB.

[Nina G.]

 

 

Assemble mum, you are right in observing that the oversees student arrives knowing they are the best in their country and for that reason they got into the Upper School. The ones coming from the Lower School basically apologise for being there and for having made it into the Upper School.They just don't believe they are the best too (maybe they are never told they are?). You can see that in their performance at the end of the year, they are tentative too, but the oversees student will be flashy or at least have a confident "look at me, here I am" attitude. After reading Luke Jennings article it looks like the change has to come from White Lodge- to begin with. If a young ballet student is told time and time again they are no good, how will they ever grow confident enough to compete with the very confident oversees student and ultimately with the very confident American or Japanese professional dancer?

[Nina G.]

Luke Jenning's response to an online reader commenting on his Guardian article: "British children go into the RB system prepared to give their all. It's what happens to them then that we should be looking at."

He is so right.

[Anjuli_Bai]

Do you think that the faculty at the school is subconsciously teaching and/or responding differently to the foreign student?

 

All to often we hear about xenophobia - but there is a reverse bias too.

 

I was once told by a parent looking for a ballet teacher that I couldn't possibly know anything because I was American born and didn't have a Russian accent. However, when I told her that originally my family had come from Russia - she signed her daughters up. duh

[aileen]

Assemble mum, what you say about the British students is really depressing. You would think that, having been selected for White Lodge (after an incredibly tough selection process), the British students would be full of confidence but it appears that the reverse is true. Why are the overseas students so confident? Were they not subjected to the same assessing out process at their previous schools? Are they technically better, or are they just better overall because to be able to come into the Upper School they will have won an international competition leading to some kind of scholarship? I certainly agree that self-confidence is crucial in any performance based profession. I have read interviews with Polunin and Muntagirov and I was struck by the fact that they both said that they didn't really get nervous before a performance despite the fact that that were taking on lead roles at an incredibly young age. Perhaps self-confidence is really prioritised at these overseas ballet schools. It sounds as if the British students have a real inferiority complex when they compare themselves to the overseas students, and I would guess that this leads to a less than harmonious environment at the RBS.

[balletla]

Isn't some of it about our British culture? We are a very self-deprecating lot and generally not enamoured with what we perceive to be showing off. Aren't we told from being young that "it's not the winning, it's the taking part that counts"?

 

Also I love the comment from the poster on the Observer article who says "frankly I'm tired of six o'clock leg extensions. Giselle's Act II solo is becoming interminable, as the bars of music are swallowed up by her "arabesque time" etc." This seems to be a common refrain amongst many of the ballet going community. Where are their opportunities to feed this back? If this were a commercial company, they would put a lot of work into finding out what their customers want. Sounds like the ADs are to blame for being taken with the 'showiness' and acrobatics.

[balletla]

I also meant to say that some of the reason for the lack of confidence of the British students is that the overseas students are often more technically advanced than them. This goes back to earlier discussions about the system of training in the UK. It is considered safe compared to some of the other countries around the world but then when comparing students of the same age, often the overseas students look far more advanced because they have had a tougher training regime from a young age (probably with more casualties along the way than in this country).

 

Also, it seems that RBS are not as willing to work with their students as other schools and are very quick to assess out. Every year there is usually at least one student assessed out from year 7 which seems incredible given the tremendous life upheaval for that child & family and then someone is deciding you're not going to make it after only 5 months training given that assessments are in February following Septemeber entry. Doesn't say much about the audition process.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Ribbons

[Anjuli_Bai]

Those of us who are tired of overdone extensions, balancing competitions, and the jumps from the moon - (which I have endlessly railed about fr years ) are, I think, in the minority. This battle began as far back as Fokine, and it is being lost. The AD's are responding to the market - look at the advertising, the posters, the pictures.

 

 

 

 

From Post 126 - Quote: Isn't some of it about our British culture? We are a very self-deprecating lot and generally not enamoured with what we perceive to be showing off. Aren't we told from being young that "it's not the winning, it's the taking part that counts"?

 

 

This is wider than UK culture.....I think Western civilization is often told it is culturally guilty of.........fill in the blank.

[glowlight]

I have no experience of RBS, but I have noticed some teachers feel it necessary to knock the confidence out of students, to break them down. Certainly you don't want students who are so cocky you can't teach them, but if you knock so much that they really don't realise how good they are, perhaps this is why the RBS girls are lacking in confidence.

[aileen]

Well, Luke Jennings' article has produced some lively responses. What I'm not clear about is who provides the funding for the overseas students. Is it the Prix de Lausanne organisation, the schools themselves or the British taxpayer?

[aileen]

Is there a difference in confidence between the British students who get into the RB Upper School from White Lodge and the British students who come in from outside? If the second group is more confident that is a terrible indictment of White Lodge.

 

[balletla]

There aren't generally any British students that come in from outside - only the odd one each year, not enough to provide a comparison.