British born dancers and the global ballet market

[afab]

Spannerandpony

 

The POB assesses out. You get in between the age of 8 and 10 for 6 months and at the end of those 6 months, you either stay or go. Between 10 and 12, you get in for a full year and then same principle. You can be assessed out every year after that either because you fail your exam or because your body as changed too much to fit in the corps or because you don't work hard enough... I think warning is given before though...

[Anna C]

Thank you Afab. :-)

[glowlight]

Whilst statistics are interesting, I fear that if we focus too much on them we would never let our children start on this road towards being dancers. The odds are seriously against anyone starting on this road actually ending up as a ballet dancer, but actually quite a few do succeed and there's nothing to say it won't be your child who does. Many more go on to have careers in other forms of dance, or other areas of the theatre or arts. And even those who don't, out of choice or not, can use what they have learned through their dancer training in whatever they choose to do in the future.

[Anna C]

I absolutely agree, glowlight. I just fear that there is a worrying disconnect between our schools and our companies and that unless problems are highlighted and debated, things will get worse rather than better.

[glowlight]

I agree with you that it is a very useful and interesting debate. I was just getting a bit concerned that the debate might scare some dancing parents off letting their children pursue their dreams, and I would hate for us to do that.

[tomuchtallent]

You have already scared me!I did want to move back to the UK so my dd could study dance, but not sure now!

[Anna C]

Oh, don't say that tomuchtalent! As a fellow parent, I think it's better to be informed of all possible pros and cons. To be fair to Luke Jennings, he's not come out with any great bombshell. I already knew that the chances of making it through classical training and into a company were small. There are issues with Vocational Training that need to be addressed and all the article has done is made people debate the issue.

 

But as parents, surely it's better to know what issues might arise? Forewarned is forearmed, after all. :-)

[hfbrew]

Well my DS insists he had the best training and is rather indignant about the fuss over the fact that this year no one who had been through RBS from yr 7 got into the company. He says that they are all still getting jobs afterall and many look forward to going abroad to join other British dancers worldwide. And I have heard in the past of RBS graduates preferring to work in smaller companies as soloists rather than as corps in RBS!

 

As it happens no one from his year got assessed out in year 7 and they really do try to avoid this. And a high proportion did go through all 5 years and all of those went on to further training though not necessarily Upper School. Admittedly some of those have now given up but the majority have now either got jobs or are still in training thus fulfilling the promise shown when they were 11.

 

My DS point is also that a British dancer did get into the company having been funded by MDS, even if she didn't go to WL.

 

Don't be scared about dance in the UK, we are so lucky to have so many brilliant places to train - thank goodness because different places suit different students. And all places have highs and lows but isn't that what prepares you for life?

 

I would also like to say that being assessed out is not the end of the road, just a different path by way of training at a place more suitable to a particular students needs. Indeed one of my DS closest friends was in this situation and ended up being one of the first of that particular set to secure a contract.

 

And I don't know of anyone who regrets being given the chance to follow the dream, but I do know three people who bitterly resent their parents for not allowing them the same opportunities. All three showed promise as dancers but dutifully followed the academic, university path demanded by their well meaning parents. And all three have abandoned their more lucrative law profession in favour of dance!

[JulieW]

Ever since my son got his place at WL for year 7 we've tried not to think too far ahead. It was my husband's main concern when he first got the letter - the worry about whether there was a future/any money in it. He soon came to the conclusion (through some trouble in his own job) that it was better to follow your dream to do a job that you love, than to have regrets at not trying. We've always known that there was always a possibility that he might not end up being a ballet dancer (we all know that few who start out on this route actually "make it") but we were willing to take the risk and give it a go. I'm delighted to say (as most of you know) that he starts a two year contract in a classical company in August and we've always known that there was a high probability that he'd end up in Europe as there are so few very classical companies in this country and he's the first to admit that he's not one of the "elite" top students - but we all couldn't be happier that he's going to have a chance to earn a living doing what he's been working so hard for.

[JulieW]

I would also like to say that being assessed out is not the end of the road, just a different path by way of training at a place more suitable to a particular students needs. Indeed one of my DS closest friends was in this situation and ended up being one of the first of that particular set to secure a contract.

 

How funny we were typing at the same time - and thanks

[Anna C]

Well said Julie. And hfbrew - welcome back! :-))

[hfbrew]

Oh I've been lurking for some time!!!

 

And like Julie I've always knew that my DS may not actually become a ballet dancer still less make a living from it!

 

And I was right about the making a living part but to see the joy in him as he prepares for his first professional performance is just brilliant - 8 years of hard training coming to fruition at last. And he is soooo happy, you can't put a price on it.

 

Just wondering whether I can tentively step off the roller coaster now...

[Paul N]

As it happens no one from his year got assessed out in year 7 and they really do try to avoid this.

 

That was my thinking too - it's probably more the exception rather than the rule. In the Guardian article, Evie Ball says they started assessing out in her year in year 9.

 

My DS point is also that a British dancer did get into the company having been funded by MDS, even if she didn't go to WL.

 

Exactly. And very well done to her.

 

The statistics in Luke's article might look unpromising, but he is only focussing on the White Lodge to RB route. Once you bring other companies and other schools into the picture, it gets a lot rosier. When I watch BRB, I know that a lot of my favourite dancers came through RBS and/or Elmhurst, and a lot of them are British!

[Mark T]

Paul N mentions how few students make it through from White Lodge to Graduation and whilst it does seem frightening it is important to remember that many children (and not just dancers) change their minds about careers during their teens. Whilst life as a ballet dancer may seem desirable at 11 it might not appeal at 16. In my daughter's year there were students who decided to move into musical theatre training at 16 and others who decided to go to university at 18.One girl even danced professionally for a year before changing her mind and going to uni! These were students who chose to do this, not forced to by being assessed out.Of course there were some who were asked to leave but as Julie W and Hfbrew have said these students mostly continue training at other schools and go on to have successful careers.

[glowlight]

 

My DS point is also that a British dancer did get into the company having been funded by MDS, even if she didn't go to WL.

 

I

 

I thought she did go to White Lodge - just not from Year 7. Am I mistaken?

[dancedizzy]

She went to Elmhurst left went to Centrepoint and from there got RBS upper school and joins company on graduation

[JulieW]

And I don't think Evie was right (not that it really matters) - I think they had a girl assessed out of year 8.

[Jellybeans]

This year girls have been assessed out of both yr7 and yr8 at WL but not out of yr9.

[Anna C]

I know I shouldn't, but I still find the idea of Assessment out in Year 7 quite shocking.

 

I know there could be many reasons (permanent injury, behaviour etc.) but I do wonder what else could change that drastically within less than a year?

[Janabiyah-Jane]

During my daughters years at WL there were children assessed out every year, including year 7 and year 10! But most were in year 9 when I think there were about 4.

It's a tough life for these youngsters.

[Jellybeans]

Spanner, I do not believe that a child would be assessed out in the true sense of the word due to injury, although of course it could be such that they are unable to continue dancing. Being assessed out has a negative conertation that would surely not apply in such circumstances.

 

As for behaviour, are people actually assessed out because of this or is the decision based purely on artistic development?

[CeliB]

An interesting non RBS perspective- my DS was taught for a while by a Latvian dancer living in the UK who went to vocational school I think in Russia- she told me that of the 26 who started with her at age 11 ish only 3 graduated the school- she was one of them and is no longer dancing (i didn't ask her why). So perhaps we arent all that bad! I often think that the assumption that Russia produces the best ballet dancers in the world should be evaluated whilst taking into account how many applicants they have (size of population/desire to find a job which confers high status etc must affect this), the attrition rate (is it higher than UK?) and what actually happens to those who fall out (eg chance for dance related careers etc)? Interestingly the Russian teacher who teaches my DS in washington says he can't teach in the West in the same way they would in Russia as he would be thrown out for brutality (I remember also in the ENB documentary the Russian soloist recalling being shouted at until his ears hurt and considering this as completely normal). DS teacher says in the west kids just don't want/need to succeed as desperately so can't be driven as hard.

 

The issue of assessing out is really thorny- Kirov, where DS is, doesnt assess out but of course they are private and don't have to justify government grants like RBS does. The advantage is that dancers have the possibility of going through rough patches without being instantly turfed out, the disadvantage perhaps for the school is that their 'success' rate is lower (though I don't get the impression this is a problem for them). But I do notice how caring and supportive the school feels- almost like a company- there is real camaraderie and no sense of competition for places (they know who the 'stars' are but don't seem to resent eachother or feel anxious if it isn't them). I have heard tthat the atmosphere at RBS is very different (but have no personal experience so can't really expound on hearsay).

 

I do however find the idea that children can be assessed out 6 months after beginning school quite disturbing- I can see they may decide to leave if they don't like it but if genuinely assessed out after getting through an audition process of 2000 for 12 places? One has to wonder what is wrong with their audition process....

[Anna C]

DS teacher says in the west kids just don't want/need to succeed as desperately so can't be driven as hard.

 

Really interesting post CeliB, thank you. The part I've quoted struck a chord with me because (with all due respect to your DS' teacher) I couldn't disagree more. That point of view was initially what prompted Luke Jennings to write a piece about British work ethic in ballet, and the rather vociferous responses to that piece prompted him to change his mind and write his most recent piece.

 

Without getting into documentaries like "A beautiful tragedy", or cases like Sergei Polunin's (in his own words, sent away from home at five, and pushed into ballet), I would say that just because we don't send our children to vocational school at five, allow them en pointe at six, or stretch their joints until they cry, doesn't mean that British/Western children don't want or need to succeed.

 

I don't scream at my daughter until her ears ring though and no way on this earth would I let anyone else do so. I'm glad Western children can't be driven as hard! Those methods of teaching may produce star dancers, but what of the effect on their long term physiological and emotional health?

[CeliB]

oh yes- sorry I perhaps should have made more clear that I don't agree with an ethic of shouting at children or putting them into a position where they are too terrified of failure to flourish- which I think is one of the points made in the article. It's a really difficult balance though between 'pushing' to establish a strong work ethic given how hard children have to work and commit in order to make it in the dance world, and sending them over the edge into nervous collapse! And having to justify state funding by your success rate makes this even harder. I suppose I was pointing out that however hard the assessing procedure seems at RBS perhaps it is a lot less brutal than in other places- where 'success' is high but failure even more so....

Anyway DS seems to have developed an incredibly strong work ethic in only 6 months without any shouting or fear of assessing out so evidently it is possible.... and even if he doesn't make it at least he will have had a pleasant life whilst trying!

[Anna C]

Sorry CeliB, I didn't assume you agreed with the teacher's point of view on that. Just pointing out that I disagreed with that ethos. :-)

 

It's really positive that your DS is flourishing - a strong work ethic without a climate of fear sounds like a great environment.

[Nina G.]

That was my thinking too - it's probably more the exception rather than the rule. In the Guardian article, Evie Ball says they started assessing out in her year in year 9.

 

 

 

 

The statistics in Luke's article might look unpromising, but he is only focussing on the White Lodge to RB route. Once you bring other companies and other schools into the picture, it gets a lot rosier. When I watch BRB, I know that a lot of my favourite dancers came through RBS and/or Elmhurst, and a lot of them are British!

 

You have very valid points but Luke's article IS about the White Lodge training.

[Nina G.]

Rowan mentioned on the RBS Topic the Comments on Luke Jenning's article are still going strong.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2012/mar/25/will-they-make-royal-ballet#start-of-comments

[Pas de Quatre]

Thanks for posting this - the debate continues. Has anyone read Lynn Seymour's article in Dancing Times? She has some very strong opinions about what is lacking in ballet training/production today.

[balletla]

Also if you look at the 'Dancer of the Month' interview with Akane Takada from RB, I think it tells you all you need to know. She says that they wear pointe shoes at a very early age in Japan even when they are not dancing but it doesn't seem to have hurt her feet. She won her first competition at age 9 dancing on pointe.

 

She also says that Japanese people like to enter competitions and and are trained to do all the flashy technical things, rather than interpretation.

 

At 15 she got a scholarship to study at the Bolshoi Academy and then she won an apprentice prize at Prix de Lausanne for RB and was later given a contract.

 

Very good insight into the approach to training in Japan and why they seem so technically advanced compared to our homegrown girls. It is also something that stands out at RBS summer schools - how technically advanced the girls are from not only Japan but all the far Eastern countries.

[Ian Macmillan]

Lynn Seymour's article in the April 'Dancing Times' is certainly full of strong opinions - but about the Royal Ballet, in particular, starting from how she feels she was treated back circa 1965, pretty much up to this morning. And not much is right with it, she feels. The article is not on line, and is lengthy, so discussion in depth would be difficult without breach of copyright. But if there is to be a thread devoted to it, it ought to be elsewhere.

[KathyG]

 

As for behaviour, are people actually assessed out because of this or is the decision based purely on artistic development?

 

There was in my ds year a child who was asked to leave due to their behaviour this was mid year and not connected to assessing out

[Ian Macmillan]

Ismene Brown at Arts Desk has an Opinion piece today on the debate started by Luke Jennings - it seems to overlook the one here, unfortunately:

 

http://www.theartsdesk.com/dance/opinion-what-ballet-school?page=0,0

[aileen]

So, at best, there are 312 jobs in British ballet. Now we need to know how many students graduate each year in the UK and how many graduate jobs there are here.