British born dancers and the global ballet market

[tomuchtallent]

I know for most of us it is impossible.I also have 3 kids.1 pianist,1 footballer and 1 dancer.It is so difficult.Everyday they all have lessons!Im not saying its right or wrong, just unfortunatly to be the best we are not competing nationally anymore,we are competing with the whole world.

[Aurora]

At my daughters gymnastics the elite gymnasts train for 29 hours per week! That's from the age of about 12, at my daughters age (8) they train for about 15. We couldn't have (and wouldn't have wanted to try to) cope with that kind of schedule. The kids come out of school early, at 2pm, to go to gym! She was in the 'feeder' group for elite and I doubt that she would have got in anyway but we chose a much less demanding alternative route that requires on 4-6 hours per week, we can manage that!!

[glowlight]

Another thing to be aware of (going back to the original post) is that regardless of nationality or where you train, very few people who start training as ballet dancers actually become ballet dancers. In fact we may find that the more places there are for talented youngsters to train (eg more funded places at vocational schools, associate schemes and CAT schemes), the smaller the proportion who will be successful, because whilst lots is being invested in training these dancers, Arts cuts in this country and other countries mean that there are fewer jobs for them to go to.

[Anna C]

Interesting point about Matthew Syed's book, which I have also read. I agree with what he's saying, but because he's discussing sport as opposed to an art form, I think the situation is slightly different. You are not discounted from playing tennis on the basis that you don't have an aesthetically perfect physique, for instance. Whereas a lot of ballet schools, both in the UK and abroad, insist in a certain "look". There was a discussion on another thread about what requirements some of our vocational schools look for for MDS places, one of them being "very high arches".

 

Yet speak to a dance physio and they will tell you that strong yet straight feet are less injury prone than very beautiful high arches. So child in ballet could practice for 20,000 hours and improve what they've been born with, but if they don't have the "look" that is the fashion du jour, then that's that. On top of physique, musicality must play a huge part, as does the dancer's memory and ability to pick up and retain steps. So in ballet although practice can make permanent, there are other factors which come into play which simply aren't an obstacle in sport.

[aileen]

Gingerbread, Rojo and Polunin are both only children. I suspect that many children who get to the top in any field, particularly where there has had to be a lot of parental involvement, are only children. In the UK at least, most parents who have more than one child are understandably unwilling to subordinate the needs and wishes of their other children to the demands of intensive ballet training. Family life is very important and the well-being of the whole family has to be balanced against the aspirations of one child who has a very small chance of succeeding anyway. No-one should feel guilty if s/he makes a rational decision that his/her child's ambitions cannot be accommodated in the context of his/her particular family.

[Jan McNulty]

I just had a look at the BRB and NB websites. Excluding the retiring Robert Parker, 5 out of 12 principals are British, 3/4 senior soloists, 4/9 soloists and 6/8 first soloists are British at BRB. At NB, 21/37 are British (7/12 at senior level).

 

I think with some of the countries listed eg Spain, Brazil, Japan, either the working conditions are not as good or there is not as much opportunity professionally, which may explain why so many dancers from those countries seek opportunity abroad.

[aileen]

Tomuchtallent, I love to think of you sitting in Antalya, which I have been to, several years ago. What are the ballet schools like there? What, if any, syllabus do they follow? Do Turkish ballet students go abroad to train? What are the ballet companies like? Will the whole family be relocating to the UK when your pianist son goes to boarding school (sorry, now I'm just being nosey)?

[aileen]

Janet, those statistics are very encouraging. Do you have the statistics for the RB, ENB and Scottish Ballet? Is it possible to find out how many British graduates are still working as classical ballet dancers say 5 years after graduating? I may be unpopular for saying this, but perhaps the number of places for classical ballet training should be reduced if there simply aren't enough jobs for the students to go to when they graduate.

 

Returning to something which I mentioned before, when my daughter was taking a ballet exam and had to miss a party because it clashed with the last lesson before the exam I could see from the expression on the other mother's face when I told her that my daughter couldn't come to the party that she thought that I was being obsessive. It was a similar situation when I wouldn't let my daughter go to the school disco the night before an early morning music exam. My view in each case was that my daughter had been preparing for months for the exam and there was no point in not seeing the preparation through to the end for the sake of one party/ disco. Now my daughter was 11 and accepted my decision. How much harder is it for British teenagers to make the kind of sacrifices which are necessary to get to the top in the ballet world against a background of instant gratification and the social pressures to fit in and be cool.

[tomuchtallent]

Aileen,

Well the sun is shining here today

There are 3 ballet schools,so we dont have much choice.All of them have Russian teachers who teach vaganova style.They only do classes at the weekend because the children get so much homework so there is no time in the week.But you can take private classes.They are very strict and expect the children to work extreamly hard.

There are vocational government schools for ballet in most major cities.They are free, full time,from age 6 up to uni.They also have Russian teachers as the Turkish ones are not so good.These vocational schools are quite new.As my son attends the music department i always see the ballet students.One of the guest choreographer is in her 50s and trained at the RBS.Alot of them have started training abroad in France,Russia and Germany.The ballet company in Antalya is not so good at the momment,but with the new system i think it will be great in the future.

We wont be moving just yet but my other children want to study in the UK.My 9 year old dd wants to audition for the 4 big ones!!So it is very difficult for us to decide when the right time to leave!!If we want a chance for a mds we should move now!!!I think we have to be in the Uk for 2 years to qualify.I am English,we left a few years ago for the lovely sunshine.xxxxx

[rowan]

I'm just popping in and out on this interesting topic, as I'm at work at the moment! I suspect on other ballet forums around the world people will be having the same discussion - "Why aren't our dancers getting jobs? What are we doing wrong in our system of training? What are they doing better in Europe/America/Japan, etc?"

[ballemum]

I have to say i think it depends on the school.

My dd's school is very good the lady who runs it is in her 80's and is very strict ,old school,

which is good she will correct the children, one of my dd's did her IF exam before christmas and had something to correct

they filmed her so she could see what was wrong and helped correct it by touching her leg. They will always have my full support

as i know they are doing their best for her. She went on to get a distinction so it can't be that wrong

and god forbid they gave her a big hug when she did LOL

They have shows and learn not everyone gets parts they want.

Competitions so they have winners and losers.

It is tough out there and my dd knows being great in her school doesn't mean she is great outside her world

I also think sometimes the parents don't help.I know of a girl whos mum pushed her all the time in ballet

she didn't like doing it got a poor marks in her vocationals and now quit because she doesn't feel she is good enough.

Its a shame as she was a nice dancer may never have gone on to use it but has missed out on enjoying the fun side

because of dare i say it a pushy parent.

[JulieW]

Janet - I was also pleasantly surprised at the numbers! I thought it might be fewer than that.

 

It's also an interesting question that Aileen asks about how many graduates are still dancing 5 years on. One of the things that surprised me a year or two ago when we started looking into this more, was how short the contracts were. So, just using RBS as an example, they might all (or almost all) have "good-looking" contracts when they graduate, but I'd really like to know how many still had jobs a year or two later (I know that some were only 6 months). Just interested.....

[amum/Cathy]

 

I read a book called Bounce, by Matthew Syed, which talks about this (mainly in relation to sport, but dance is relevant to this). I recommend it highly!

He says "natural talent" is a bit of a myth.

Yes I've got this as well - bought it for my kindle but then wanted to lend it to everyone so went out and bought a paper copy as well

 

Interesting point about Matthew Syed's book, which I have also read. I agree with what he's saying, but because he's discussing sport as opposed to an art form, I think the situation is slightly different.

 

I seem to remember a discussion on the old forum about a radio programme by Deborah Bull where she discussed the difference between our UK kids and the overseas trained kids. Essentially she seemed to think it came down to this 10,000 hours of practice/training concept. As Malcom Gladwell said in Outliers, before Matthew Syed's book, 10,000 hours practice is the time needed to become good/expert etc in something. They complete the 10,000 hours of dance training at a younger age in Korea, Russia, China etc. But she recognised that it didn't do the child's emotional wellbeing much good all the same

[Anjuli_Bai]

Reading some of the posts above which discuss how many hours of practice are needed - I am reminded of a book about the great Prima Ballerina Galina Ulanova. In this book the author follows her around through her day - for several days. At this time she is already a Prima - world famous.

 

This particular day was a national holiday in the USSR and everything is closed. However, Ulanova gets dressed, goes out in the cold snowy weather, goes to the Bolshoi school, uses her private key to go in. The building is empty, silent and cold. She turns on a light in a studio and starts to give herself a ballet class. When the author, who has gone with her, asks why she is doing this her answer is:

 

"I need the practice."

 

The need to practice never stops - and all her life she answers the need.

[Jan McNulty]

Re the BRB dancers, they have all risen through the ranks and have spent their careers so far with the company, except for Natasha Oughtred, who transferred over from RB.

 

It's a similar story at NB. One or two danced for other companies but have then devoted their careers to NB.

 

It should also be noted that at BRB a number of the other dancers, non-British, came through Upper School and have devoted their careers to BRB for which, I applaud them.

 

On a slightly facetious note, what is it about the water in Hull? Mark Silver, Michael and Kevin O'Hare, Robert Parker, Neil Westmoreland and Ashley Dixon are all from Hull. Come the Autumn, three of those named will occupy three of the most influential posts in British ballet...

[amum/Cathy]

 

On a slightly facetious note, what is it about the water in Hull? Mark Silver, Michael and Kevin O'Hare, Robert Parker, Neil Westmoreland and Ashley Dixon are all from Hull. Come the Autumn, three of those named will occupy three of the most influential posts in British ballet...

 

On an even more facetious point I remember thinking this when watching Hull schoolboy Liam Mower, one of the first 3 Billys in Billy Elliot! I never saw any other Billy better his performance

[aileen]

Amum/Cathy, it's interesting to hear Deborah Bull's opinion. How did she manage to put in the 10,000 hours of practice?

[amum/Cathy]

Amum/Cathy, it's interesting to hear Deborah Bull's opinion. How did she manage to put in the 10,000 hours of practice?

 

Don't know - but I keep meaning to buy her new book I think essentially she said the UK dancers get there in the end - but these overseas dancers will always be ahead of them as they started younger or trained more hours at the younger ages so get to their 10,000 hours sooner

[rowan]

The 10,000 hours get a lot of mention at DD's dance school too.

 

Re overseas dancers: I seem to remember an interview with the RB principal dancer Laura Morera who joined the Lower School from Spain, in which she said that she had been going to ballet class after school from 6:30 till 10 every night and all weekend -all before the age of 11... Although she added that she thought if she had continued at this level of intensity, no doubt she would have broken something!

[Nina G.]

Marianella Nunez started taking classes at the age of 3, aged 8 she was admitted to a full time ballet school and by the time she was14 she was in the Corps de Ballet. Thus, she already had 3 years of professional experience before she came to London for a finishing year at the RBS. From there on it was rapid ascend in the RB and within a few years she was a Principal.

[Lisa O`Brien]

Referring to what ninag has just said, and the general feeling here that the best foreign dancers train so much younger and so much more intensively; should it maybe be that White Lodge,Elmhurst etc takes and trains children from the age of 6 then? Maybe full time training at 11, compared to some countries, is leaving British dancers falling behind?

[primrose]

My dd now has experience of the Russian way of training out in Moscow, The younger children are not shouted at or hit. Times have moved on from the Perm ballet schools video of a beautiful tradegy. The training appears to have a lot of structure, the students are taught perseverence (pardon the spelling), determination, self belief and to never give up. The teachers do touch the students all the time, how can they know what muscles to use if they are not physically shown. The children have daily gymnastic lessons and are taught to stretch safely. Its very usual to find students stretching outside the classroom for up to an hour before the class actually starts. Its very interesting to see that there doesnt seem to be many injuries considering the intensity of the training. My daughters hip was a little sore last week, the teacher noticed it straight away and insisted she stop the lesson and rest. My dd didnt have to say anything to the teacher, its clear that the teacher understood how my dds body worked. There are lots of Japanese students at the Bolshoi ballet school and my dd says that they are breath takingly good, however they work so hard. The teachers at the Bolshoi are strict and they expect the students to work hard, however I find that they are never cruel, they are not opposed to giving a child a hug and they certainly give the children lots of praise when they have achieved their goal.

[tomuchtallent]

how many hour a day do they do ballet for at WL?If its only 1 class a day then maybe thats the problem.I think 11 is a good age for WL to take children as most of them already started ballet at a young age before and you can see that in the childs body shape

[aileen]

Ninag, I don't think that anyone is advocating children becoming professional dancers in the UK but I take your point.

 

Amum/Cathy, I wonder whether British born dancers ever actually catch up. Presumably, when they are reaching their 10,000 hours the foreign born dancers are notching up 12,000 hours or whatever. I imagine that when the students enter the companies those who have put in the most practice are generally the strongest technically and they are the ones who start getting the solos and then the promotions whilst the others languish in the Corps and become disheartened. And if you are not strong technically it is harder to feel confident and your acting suffers which in turn leads to ADs discounting you and choosing other dancers for roles. It's a vicious circle.

 

 

[tomuchtallent]

Primrose,i love my daughters Russian teachers.Exactly what you said is exactly the same experience we have had.My daughter respects them so much.

[aileen]

Thequays, full-time ballet school at the age of 6 is a radical idea (even if it was non-residential). Can you really tell if a child has the potential to become a professional dancer at such a young age? And, even if you can, would it be ethical to put a child into such an environment when s/he is so young? Having said that, I know that children from as young as 8 do hours of gymnastics every week, but they are still at mainstream schools. I don't know what the answer is. It would be fascinating to find out from Lauren Cuthbertson, who is the only current female British principal at the RB, why she thought that she made it when so many of her peers did not.

[primrose]

Its not just the amount of hours given to training, its about the quality of the teaching. I do think that too many hours training can damage the body. My dd at age 16 will do one ballet class, one pointe class, repetoire, character maybe gymnastics, maybe drama (classical) per day. ( I am sure that my dd will tell me that I have that wrong, but its something like that) The lessons are hard but she is certainly not dancing 24/7 and the younger children certainly arent. I will say though that her whole attitude to ballet training has changed. She takes the criticism for what it is, dusts herself down and works harder. She is now much harder on herself and very, very motivated. She is definately much more passionate and will push herself much harder than she did before. In all fairness she has always worked hard but I do believe that the Russians have instilled in her this new work ethic.

[Nina G.]

http://balletalert.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/35312-physical-and-mental-abuse/

 

Interestingly Post 1 and 2 on this Forum talks about similar problems with companies in Sweden and Germany. They too are filled with foreigners except their own nationals. It's a global issue it seems.

[rowan]

I think it is generally believed that ballet training before the age of, say, eight or nine, doesn't really count. Before that age what children are learning are "music and movement" skills. My own child started ballet after this age, and nobody has suggested this should hold her back. The big Russian schools start ballet training at age ten, so it's similar to the age 11 that the vocational schools take children in the UK.

[BankruptMum]

Good to know your daughter is doing well Primrose!

 

I do agree its quality of teaching rather than quantity.

 

You hear of so many children taking two or three classes of the same grade each week but to be honest I do wonder if that repitition is actually doing any good - I believe its much better to be doing a variety of classes/styles.

[tomuchtallent]

Rowan i think you right about the age,but saying that when my dd started at the age of 5 they worked very hard on turnout,flexability,and feet.Im sure the younger you start the easier it would be to achieve these.My daughter has just turned 9 and if she started now it would be so difficult for her to catch up to where she is now.

[glowlight]

We should also remember that the global market for dancers works both ways. There are many UK trained dancers in foreign companies and this is often the best/only way a young dancer can get started.

[BankruptMum]

Rowan i think you right about the age,but saying that when my dd started at the age of 5 they worked very hard on turnout,flexability,and feet.Im sure the younger you start the easier it would be to achieve these.My daughter has just turned 9 and if she started now it would be so difficult for her to catch up to where she is now.

 

Although it seems better to start 'proper' training younger in terms of gaining correct turnout and flexibility etc., how many 5 year olds can understand and remember how to control feet and legs - for some having the co-ordination to skip is a huge achievement, remembering a sequence of steps and learning musicality is just as important and it should be 'fun' as well

 

You are also dependant on having good teachers and at such a young age a lot of parents take their children to local village halls etc., to the nearest class, the standard of teaching will vary hugely.

 

I believe far too much emphasis is put on doing exams in the UK, children are pushed on to the next grade and are taking major grades which were originally designed for much older students so there could be an element of maturity in their work - not just a process of 'learning the grade'. But when teachers offer nothing but syllabus classes there is nothing more for these children to do than keep moving on up the grades. Surely a litle more variety and free classes would make things more enjoyable for those who are there purely as a hobby too.