ENB's new image

[aileen]

I don't think that anyone can seriously argue that ENB is not a British company. Perhaps restor is unaware that both Alicia Markova and Anton Dolin changed their names for professional purposes. Both were born in and grew up in Britain. Markova was not Russian but presumably thought that a Russian-sounding name would be beneficial to her in the ballet world.

 

As for ENB (and other companies) employing more British dancers, this could be achieved in two ways. Firstly, by the companies taking exclusively from feeder schools, rather like POB does, which would in turn require those schools to have some *legal* criteria by which they could exclude foreign nationals. Secondly, by tightening up the work permit rules so that it would become almost impossible to apply for a permit for someone who was not an EU national on the basis that there were plenty of suitably trained EU nationals who could do the "job". I've always been rather puzzled about how POB's dancers are almost exclusively French. I think it's because the company takes exclusively from the school which in turn takes exclusively French nationals or at least children whose parents live in France, which is probably the result of the absence of boarding facilities at the school. Whilst I understand the argument about British taxation being used to support British jobs would we really want to go down the route of excluding all foreign nationals, however talented, for no reason other than their nationality? I personally wouldn't want our cherished ballet companies to have to become xenophobic and inward-looking organisations.

 

As for removing all taxpayer funding, and looking to the US as a model, it should be remembered that the US comes from a very different tradition when it comes to all forms of funding. The welfare state is a great deal smaller and philanthropy funds even what we in the UK would regard as essential services such as hospitals for those without insurance cover. The UK, thankfully in my opinion, is much closer to Europe.

[chrischris]

With regards to "money being tight", I just thought I'd point out that ENB receives around £6 million from the Arts Council every year. That's not an astronomical amount of money when you consider that the UK defence budget is £33 billion this year. And that £10 million was found from the public purse for an ex prime minister's funeral a couple of weeks ago. For just a few hours out of one day. And that the Olympic opening ceremony cost the taxpayer £27 million. Again, this was for just one day. Same goes for the Diamond Jubilee celebrations that cost around £1.3 billion and was funded by the taxpayer. And for the Royal Wedding of 2011 that cost £20 million.

 

Without getting into politics, and without criticising the expenditure on any of the above events, you cannot really argue that the £6 million that ENB receives as their yearly budget is unaffordable when you consider the amount of public money that is made available for these high profile and often controversial one off events.

 

That's true, and there is an argument about whether all those events should be funded with public money. The obvious other side of that though is that all those events attracted large crowds and a worldwide audience, whereas ENB is struggling to attract audiences.

[chrischris]

I don't think that anyone can seriously argue that ENB is not a British company. Perhaps restor is unaware that both Alicia Markova and Anton Dolin changed their names for professional purposes. Both were born in and grew up in Britain. Markova was not Russian but presumably thought that a Russian-sounding name would be beneficial to her in the ballet world.

 

As for ENB (and other companies) employing more British dancers, this could be achieved in two ways. Firstly, by the companies taking exclusively from feeder schools, rather like POB does, which would in turn require those schools to have some *legal* criteria by which they could exclude foreign nationals. Secondly, by tightening up the work permit rules so that it would become almost impossible to apply for a permit for someone who was not an EU national on the basis that there were plenty of suitably trained EU nationals who could do the "job". I've always been rather puzzled about how POB's dancers are almost exclusively French. I think it's because the company takes exclusively from the school which in turn takes exclusively French nationals or at least children whose parents live in France, which is probably the result of the absence of boarding facilities at the school. Whilst I understand the argument about British taxation being used to support British jobs would we really want to go down the route of excluding all foreign nationals, however talented, for no reason other than their nationality? I personally wouldn't want our cherished ballet companies to have to become xenophobic and inward-looking organisations.

 

As for removing all taxpayer funding, and looking to the US as a model, it should be remembered that the US comes from a very different tradition when it comes to all forms of funding. The welfare state is a great deal smaller and philanthropy funds even what we in the UK would regard as essential services such as hospitals for those without insurance cover. The UK, thankfully in my opinion, is much closer to Europe.

 

Aileen, I agree with a lot of what you say, and I don't want to sound rude, and I imagine my views are formed by the fact that I am really new to ballet, but you refer to the companies as 'our cherished ballet companies' and the truth is they are not cherished; the overwhelming majority of the population probably don't even know they exist, and don't care, and most likely wonder why their taxes are going to an art form that cannot attract large audiences. It's probably only a few thousand that cherish them, and If they are not even employing British dancers in significant numbers than it becomes even harder to justify a subsidy.

[Marieve]

Yes I know, I was joking!

Sorry taxi4ballet, didn't mean to be chippy! Was already on my high horse

[bangorballetboy]

The only form of dance I am familiar with danced solely by Brits is actually Morris dancing.  Again a statement of truth.

 

Would be a statement of truth if it were true but it's not.  Morris dancing is not just undertaken by Brits.

[aileen]

Chrischris, as what I assume is a ballet-lover you seem to be strangely hostile to the idea of ballet companies being taxpayer funded. The reality is that ballet companies, particularly those who have orchestras (ENB for example), are enormously expensive to run and simply could not survive without funding from somewhere. I just don't think that funding from private sources ie individuals, charitable trusts and corporate sponsors is sustainable year in year out. I very much hope that Britain is not going to become a third world country culturally which I think will be inevitable if taxpayer funding to theatres, galleries, museums as well as ballet companies is removed.

[Marieve]

Aileen, I agree with a lot of what you say, and I don't want to sound rude, and I imagine my views are formed by the fact that I am really new to ballet, but you refer to the companies as 'our cherished ballet companies' and the truth is they are not cherished; the overwhelming majority of the population probably don't even know they exist, and don't care, and most likely wonder why their taxes are going to an art form that cannot attract large audiences. It's probably only a few thousand that cherish them, and If they are not even employing British dancers in significant numbers than it becomes even harder to justify a subsidy.

With respect chrischris, your frequent posts, on more than one thread, questioning ENB's existence seem somewhat odd coming from someone who's supposedly a supporter of ballet. They come over as being posted by someone with an agenda rather than someone who's participating in a discussion in good faith.

 

Of course you have every right to post about your concerns but this constable banging of the "waste of taxpayers money" and "they're not even british" drums seem a little strange in this context.

 

Apologies if I'm wrong. I hope I am.

[alison]

Yes, just like America, that cultural wasteland.

 

Chrischris, perhaps you haven't been following the situation in the US over the last few years?  A number of regional companies have gone to the wall completely, had to merge, or have had their activities severely curtailed due to lack of funding and other financial constraints.

 

Anyway, this thread has gone very much off-subject from its original title.  If people want to have a serious discussion on funding-related issues, perhaps someone could start a new thread to do so?

[chrischris]

I don't mean to sound hostile, and i'm not, it's just i'm very new to ballet, and getting involved in the ballet world has sometimes felt like what I imagine joining some secret society would be like. Some people don't seem to live in the real world, and seem to think that there is unlimited cash about and these companies should be able to spend it as and when and on whom they wish, without any criticism and without any concessions to the changing economic and political climate, and the general publics quite rational assumption that subsidised dance companies should at least employ some British dancers.

 

Some of the conservations i've seen on this forum and the conversations i've heard in the intervals at ballet performances make me wonder whether I inhabit a different universe.

[chrischris]

With respect chrischris, your frequent posts, on more than one thread, questioning ENB's existence seem somewhat odd coming from someone who's supposedly a supporter of ballet. They come over as being posted by someone with an agenda rather than someone who's participating in a discussion in good faith.

 

Of course you have every right to post about your concerns but this constable banging of the "waste of taxpayers money" and "they're not even british" drums seem a little strange in this context.

 

Apologies if I'm wrong. I hope I am.

 

No, no agenda, I think it's just because i'm new to all this, and I have no emotional attachment to the ENB (the RB is more local to me and it's easier for me to get to the ROH) I just look at the ENB and the idea of two compoanies near each other doing the exact same thing as completely bizarre.

[A frog]

There will always be someone to complain that public money is being ill-used, but some people's insistence (not just chrischris or restor, some comments in newspapers too) that what amounts to a few pennies a year per taxpayers is an outrageous waste and the first step to economic irrelevance always sounded very curious to me.

And if we're going to go with :"some people don't care so why pay for it?", I want to stop paying for public education, I didn't get to enjoy it here and it's unlikely my kids will; I'm sure it's a much bigger savings (to be clear I'm being sarcastic, I am definitely not advocating this).

[aileen]

Chrischris, all the companies employ *some* British (and British trained) dancers. At ENB (the particular focus of your attention) there are the following British born dancers: Begona, Jenna, Kerry, Tamarin, Nancy, Lauretta, Jennie, Nicola, Araminta, Daniel, James F, James S, Shevelle, Barry, Max, Teo, Grant, Joshua. Ten more are European (we couldn't exclude them anyway, lawfully, even if we wanted to). As ENB has around 64 dancers I leave it to you to judge for yourself whether or not those figures are satisfactory.

[MAB]

I don't mean to sound hostile, and i'm not, it's just i'm very new to ballet, and getting involved in the ballet world has sometimes felt like what I imagine joining some secret society would be like. Some people don't seem to live in the real world, and seem to think that there is unlimited cash about and these companies should be able to spend it as and when and on whom they wish, without any criticism and without any concessions to the changing economic and political climate, and the general publics quite rational assumption that subsidised dance companies should at least employ some British dancers.

 

Some of the conservations i've seen on this forum and the conversations i've heard in the intervals at ballet performances make me wonder whether I inhabit a different universe.

 

I imagine most ballet-goers (opera-goers, theatre-goers etc) find their favourite art forms a blissful escape from the real world.  I work in economics and even have to talk to politicians now and then.  I absolutely don't want to talk about 'the changing economic & political climate' when I'm out for the evening and I suspect most others don't either.

[taxi4ballet]

I don't mean to sound hostile, and i'm not, it's just i'm very new to ballet, and getting involved in the ballet world has sometimes felt like what I imagine joining some secret society would be like. Some people don't seem to live in the real world, and seem to think that there is unlimited cash about and these companies should be able to spend it as and when and on whom they wish, without any criticism and without any concessions to the changing economic and political climate, and the general publics quite rational assumption that subsidised dance companies should at least employ some British dancers.

 

Some of the conservations i've seen on this forum and the conversations i've heard in the intervals at ballet performances make me wonder whether I inhabit a different universe.

 

Speaking as a member of the general public for a moment, when watching the National Ballet Company from whatever country, I wouldn't consider it unusual to find that the majority of the dancers in the company would be of that nationality, rather than conspicuous by their absence. As chrischris says, it is a rational assumption...

[chrischris]

Chrischris, all the companies employ *some* British (and British trained) dancers. At ENB (the particular focus of your attention) there are the following British born dancers: Begona, Jenna, Kerry, Tamarin, Nancy, Lauretta, Jennie, Nicola, Araminta, Daniel, James F, James S, Shevelle, Barry, Max, Teo, Grant, Joshua. Ten more are European (we couldn't exclude them anyway, lawfully, even if we wanted to). As ENB has around 64 dancers I leave it to you to judge for yourself whether or not those figures are satisfactory.

 

It's not so much the nationality thing. I didn't even realise there was an ENB until a few months ago. I went to the RB because someone took me to the ballet and I just assumed that was the only ballet company in London (it's the only one i've ever heard of) and ballet is such a niche art form anyway that I guess I just assumed. When I found out there was another ballet company nearby and it did the exact same ballets (exact for someone like me, who I think like most new people goes to the famous ballets first) I found it really surpirisng, and I guess it is not something I really understand, how two companies in an art form not many people watch anymore can be doing the exact same thing, often at the same time, and this can be considered viable, especially in the current climate.

[MAB]

It's not so much the nationality thing. I didn't even realise there was an ENB until a few months ago. I went to the RB because someone took me to the ballet and I just assumed that was the only ballet company in London (it's the only one i've ever heard of) and ballet is such a niche art form anyway that I guess I just assumed. When I found out there was another ballet company nearby and it did the exact same ballets (exact for someone like me, who I think like most new people goes to the famous ballets first) I found it really surpirisng, and I guess it is not something I really understand, how two companies in an art form not many people watch anymore can be doing the exact same thing, often at the same time, and this can be considered viable, especially in the current climate.

 

In that case surely it would be more economically viable to ditch the RB - after all they cost the taxpayer a hell of a lot more.

[chrischris]

In that case surely it would be more economically viable to ditch the RB - after all they cost the taxpayer a hell of a lot more.

 

Yep, but I reckon the RB could probably survive long term without subsidy, if they were allowed to keep the royal title.

[aileen]

Chrischris, although ENB perform in London (and their London "home" happens to be close to the ROH) they also spend an equal amount of time touring around the country as that has always been a big part of their original remit.

 

Returning to the subject of the dancers' nationalities, you have just contradicted yourself. Earlier you complained that taxes were being used to fund jobs which were taken by people who were not British and now you've just said that you're not bothered about the dancers' nationalities.

[Jan McNulty]

And, of course, Ballet Black is based in London!

 

I was the opposite way round to Chrischris. Being a provincial my first exposure was to ENB and, over the years, I have seen them far more frequently than RB. I didn't think there was a huge amount of repertoire overlap other than Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty and Nutcracker (very different productions of course). And, we should remember that ENB tend to do very well with their classic productions on tour, as well as their RAH productions. In fact ENB alongside BRB and NB do tour this country so that ballet lovers can get their fix without the expense of a trip to London. (I was thinking of a day trip to London in July until I discovered that the "best" train fare was going to be £78!). ENB has 6 regular touring venues.

 

The production that turned me into a ballet fan was ENB performing Onegin (26 May 1984) and, of course, the RB subsequently followed ENB's lead on that one!

 

 

 

BTW ENB and BRB used to have quite a touring overlap until the Arts Council defined their target areas in the early 90s.

 

All the companies have their own identity and I say Vive la Difference!

Edited April 26, 2013 by Janet McNulty
To make sense of one sentence

[chrischris]

Chrischris, although ENB perform in London (and their London "home" happens to be close to the ROH) they also spend an equal amount of time touring around the country as that has always been a big part of their original remit.

 

Returning to the subject of the dancers' nationalities, you have just contradicted yourself. Earlier you complained that taxes were being used to fund jobs which were taken by people who were not British and now you've just said that you're not bothered about the dancers' nationalities.

 

It is a big issue, and I think it is something ballet companies have to look at if they want to remain economically viable, but it is one part of a big picture. And I didn't say I wasn't bothered about it, I said 'it's not so much the nationaility thing', and that was in the context of the future of the ENB. I actually think the lack of British dancers is more of an issue at the RB, because it is the national company and because of the shadow Darcey has cast over it.

[bangorballetboy]

In that case surely it would be more economically viable to ditch the RB - after all they cost the taxpayer a hell of a lot more.

 

I'd be interested to know how you are able to say that as the subsidy which goes to the RB is not made public.

 

I note that, according to the most recent accounts, ACE subsidy accounts for just under 50% of the income of the ENB and 25% of the income of the Royal Opera House.  Cost to the taxpayer is not just the outgoings from ACE but should also take into account the value and benefit for the economy generated by the recipient.

[Marieve]

I was the opposite way round to Chrischris. Being a provincial my first exposure was to ENB and, over the years, I have seen them far more frequently than RB. I didn't think there was a huge amount of repertoire overlap other than Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty and Nutcracker (very different productions of course). And, we should remember that ENB tend to do very well with their classic productions on tour, as well as their RAH productions. In fact ENB alongside BRB and NB do tour this country so that ballet lovers can get their fix without the expense of a trip to London. (I was thinking of a day trip to London in July until I discovered that the "best" train fare was going to be £78!). ENB has 6 regular touring venues.

It's a lot easier for me to see touring companies too Janet as I'm quite a distance from London. I've only got into ballet fairly recently and so far have seen (and loved) BRB and Ballet Theatre UK. Am seeing Ballet Black in a couple of weeks time and very much looking forward to seeing La Corsaire when ENB tour it later in the year

 

Apart from anything else, it's such good value when the best seats in the house are a maximum of £45! I do love travelling up to see the RB but its so expensive in comparison (understandably so), especially when travel costs are factored in.

 

Hmm maybe ENB should tour smaller productions in smaller venues, as well as the standard ones, to even more locations... I'm sure there are loads of people who'd come along that wouldn't necessarily travel long distances to see a ballet

[chrischris]

Anyway, i'm going to bow out of this conversation now. I'm sorry if I came across as hostile, or offended anyone. I think that the future is going to be very different for all arts companies, especially after the culture secretary's comments this week about arts organisation having to justify their funding from an economic rather than an artistic perspective, which is not something I necessarily disagree with. Personally, I find ENB a rather curious company, but I understand it is one that a lot of other people love. I have come to love ballet, and though I think you can still love something and still see the case that it might not necessarily deserve government subsidy, I hope it thrives in the future.

[Anna C]

Chrischris, if you can find it on Youtube, I'd really recommend watching the three part "Agony and Ecstasy" documentary filmed two or three years ago about ENB. Not only is it a fascinating insight into the life of a ballet company, it does introduce you to many of the dancers. My daughter loved spotting people she'd seen on the telly when we next saw ENB. Because ENB is a smaller company than RB, it is nice to feel that you "know" some of the dancers on stage. :-)

[A frog]

chrischris: I'm guessing you are referring to Swan Lake and Nutcracker when you mention that ENB and RB do the same repertoire. These are performed because they fill the halls, and if you view the more or less duplication as a problem, it would only be worse without the subsidy.
ENB is also primarily a touring company, their tour just happens to go through London, and the subsidy most likely benefits the audience outside of London above all.I also assume that in the general economics of it, the London season to an extent subsidises the tour.

I understand that you are new to ballet, and I hope this whole discussion is not putting you off, but one of the beauty of the art  form is that it is creating a new language based purely on movement and the human body, nationality is irrelevant, and as Marianela Nunez and Yuhui Choe are proving these days with Ashton, you don't have to have grown up in the culture of a choreographer to be the best exponent of it either.

You mention Darcy, I started going to the ballet after she had retired so have never seen her, but from what I hear and read, while she was of course gifted, part of her fame was publicity caused by her nationality, not purely talent (I believe there was a topic on her not too long ago); ballet companies are only trying to attract as big an audience as possible, ultimately, they need the best dancers, not dancers that will somehow develop a sense of patriotic pride in the public (most of whom, certainly every single person I've taken to the ballet, really couldn't care less). And if they could, they would jump on the opportunity to have British dancers at top level.
 

[GTL]

You mean you haven't noticed the superiority of National Theatre productions over the average West End dross?

 

 

No, I haven't, and to be honest I don't notice much difference in quality between London theatre productions and the theatre productions put on in my home town.

 

This is quite a statement to make. The National Theatre and British theatre training is one of our most highly-regarded achievements internationally and the UK – mainly London – has centuries of experience to draw on.

 

Ballet does not have that tradition here. It got a foothold thanks mainly to the efforts of those who trained abroad, brought their skills here and raised our standards. The best of our own can get to the top but having world-class colleagues alongside helps them get there (as with footballers).

 

Artistic snobbery is not something I want to endorse but it would be a very sad, uninspiring and ultimately brain-dead world if everything was reduced to the lowest common denominator, which is more likely to happen if subsidy is withdrawn and market forces are the only consideration.

[Jan McNulty]

Well said GTL. We certainly wouldn't get any ballet mixed bills!

[alison]

You mention Darcy, I started going to the ballet after she had retired so have never seen her, but from what I hear and read, while she was of course gifted, part of her fame was publicity caused by her nationality, not purely talent

 

I think that's a little unfair: her youth and the "fairytale rise to stardom", i.e. being "plucked from the corps de ballet" (okay, she was actually a soloist, I think, at the time) to star in MacMillan's last full-length ballet (as it turned out), not to mention the sheer physicality of her dancing, so rare at the time, to my mind had more to do with it than being British.  (But then, some people do seem to have had rather a bee in their bonnets about British principals over the last couple of decades.)  At a time when most principal dancers in most companies in the country were pretty much keeping a low profile out of work, Darcey was putting her head above the parapet and being seen at events, and taking part in things other dancers would probably have shied away from, and that helped to give her a higher profile.

[Erica]

I'd be interested to know how you are able to say that as the subsidy which goes to the RB is not made public.

 

I note that, according to the most recent accounts, ACE subsidy accounts for just under 50% of the income of the ENB and 25% of the income of the Royal Opera House.  Cost to the taxpayer is not just the outgoings from ACE but should also take into account the value and benefit for the economy generated by the recipient.

I wonder how much money Royal Opera House really gets from ACE, this was published last January: Funding awards to support capital projects in the arts and culture sector

• Date: 22 January 2013
• Region: National

Royal Opera House

Award: £10 million

A programme of improvements over four years to maintain, repair and modernise stage and rehearsal facilities, as well as its digital capacity. This will enable the organisation to increase its artistic, financial and environmental sustainability.

 

This means that, on top of what they receive from ACE portfolio they are getting another £10 million and I bet there is a lot more money coming through different channels which is not considered when talking about ACE funding

 

The Royal Ballet is a resident company so no renting of theatres in involved, no travelling expenses out of London (except for a yearly international tour when they can manage it) etc. etc. so there is no possible comparison about costs and taxpayers money

[bangorballetboy]

so there is no possible comparison about costs and taxpayers money

Which is exactly what I said. All the figures for the ROH (which includes funding towards the RB) are in the public domain but the amount of "public funding" which actually goes towards the RB is not known.

[aileen]

Going back before Darcey's time, was Margot Fonteyn well known to the general public before she started dancing with Nureyev? Why did she become so famous? Was it because of her partnership with Nureyev who cut a romantic and glamorous figure (defection from the Soviet Union etc)? Did she appear at public events, give lots of interviews etc? I'm moving off-topic, I know, but I'm just curious.

[Pas de Quatre]

During the World War II, what was to become the Royal Ballet toured extensively, both to the regions and to entertain the troops.  They danced in appalling conditions, but kept going even during air raids.  There are many fascinating books about this part of ballet history.  Fonteyn was a household name because so many people had actually seen her dance!

 

She was in her 40s and near to retirement when Nureyev came on the scene.  The partnership gave her a new lease of life - professionally (& possibly personally).  The press in UK have always loved high profile partnerships - other examples are Vivian Leigh & Laurence Olivier, Elizabeth Taylor & Richard Burton, and today The Beckhams.

[A frog]

@Alison, yes, my comment was a little ill-phrased and I was probably projecting today's discussions. I'm sure that she fully deserved to be a principal, and even to considered one of the top ballerinas of the company, but her profile was so much more. But anyway, this discussion has already been had on these boards.