A Levels in Ballet Upper Schools-Any insight?

[ThatDancingGirl]

Hello there. I am new to this forum but I was hoping to ask those of you with knowledge of ENBS or other upper schools how it works as my dd(currently in year 10 at a normal secondary) would like to apply to upper schools in ballet after finishing GCSEs but I would love her to be able to continue with a levels some how so she can have her plan B available to apply to uni should it not pan out with a ballet career. Looking on ENBS website it seems there aren't options for online learning to do such thing? And it seems upon graduating they'd still need to do 18 months of learning to get a degree is that right? But CSB and RBS for example skip A levels all together and once finished the 3 years gain a BA? But from what I gather RBS also offers options for students to do online a levels instead if they wanted? I'd love any insight into this from those of you ahead of me. Thanks so much 

[SpideyDad]

2 minutes ago, ThatDancingGirl said:

Hello there. I am new to this forum but I was hoping to ask those of you with knowledge of ENBS or other upper schools how it works as my dd(currently in year 10 at a normal secondary) would like to apply to upper schools in ballet after finishing GCSEs but I would love her to be able to continue with a levels some how so she can have her plan B available to apply to uni should it not pan out with a ballet career. Looking on ENBS website it seems there aren't options for online learning to do such thing? And it seems upon graduating they'd still need to do 18 months of learning to get a degree is that right? But CSB and RBS for example skip A levels all together and once finished the 3 years gain a BA? But from what I gather RBS also offers options for students to do online a levels instead if they wanted? I'd love any insight into this from those of you ahead of me. Thanks so much 

@ThatDancingGirl

It's probably worth a discussion with the school. In our experience ENBS don't specifically offer A Levels, but they don't discourage students from doing them in their own time and these can be arranged on line.

 

We did consider our DD doing one, but the schedule is very full and, after a couple of months we felt it would be too much.

 

Bear in mind that the Diploma does carry an Academic Level 5 or 6 at graduation, so your DC shouldn't lose any ground, unless they find themselves wishing to do something completely different.

Info at https://www.enbschool.org.uk/editorial.php?ref=academic

[Swanwings]

Hello @ThatDancingGirl, I cant comment on what the courses are like as my dd is still yr 11, but I do know that Elmhurst and Tring both offer Alevel options if thats any help. 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Swanwings

[Anna C]

Hello ThatDancingGirl and welcome to the forum. 😊 The first place that springs to my mind for 16+ dance training plus A’ Levels is Tring Park School, then, as Swanwings says, Elmhurst.  
 

If, like mine, your dd is academic, I think A Levels are vital, and A Levels during the school day are the only realistic way to do it, in my opinion.  After a long, arduous, stressful day training, I doubt any 16/17 year old would have the energy to then start online/evening academic classes.

 

The other advantage of an upper school that offers A Levels is that you don’t use any Student Finance degree funding from SFE (DaDa didn’t use to affect SFE loans, but I’m not sure now) and can choose (within reason) the subjects you’re interested in/ones that can facilitate a degree that’s not dance related. 

[Kerfuffle]

Hi ! It’s very early days for us (3rd week!) and Spidey can tell you much more about ENBS but I would like to add that my DD is really enjoying how her history of dance academic study is relating to seeing ENB performances (they are going tomorrow). My DD thought long and hard about A Levels and we came to the conclusion that it would be better to do the diploma which fully related to her dancing rather than struggle to fit in A levels around dancing. She is someone who has always studied hard and enjoyed school so it wasn’t an easy decision. To get into a top uni you tend to need 3 rather than 2 which most upper schools offer as so much time is spent dancing. Like Spidey says the days are very full at ENBS and my DD finds by the time she’s cooked tea and done laundry she’s ready for bed! I think if you wanted to be a doctor where you needed specific a levels then that is probably the situation where a levels matter the most as they have to be sciences. Otherwise I think with the degree finished her plan b would probably be arts related if not ballet, probably enabled by post grad study.

[ThatDancingGirl]

Thank you for the replies. I guess I should also add I'm not from the UK so while my children have been born and educated here, the education system is very new to me. (as is the ballet world on top of that- non dancing family  ) DD is academic and into arts in general if she were to do a levels it would be art and english related subjects but I guess it's not feasible to do them alongside the upper school ballet training from what I'm gathering. So schools like Tring and Elmhurst seem to cover all the ground. But if she wanted to go the route of ENBS or others, and she had to resort to a plan b would that not require going back to take the a levels or do uk unis not require it if she had the degree? Again, apologies for being clueless here. It's such a competitive world in ballet and I just worry about not having the back up plan. 

[Kerfuffle]

Good question! I think that logically the diploma/degree is a higher level if qualification (level 5 or 6) than A Levels (level 3). I am only guessing here but usually if you already have a degree you would be looking at a post graduate qualification (MA for example). My daughter would have chosen art and English (and probably history) too. I think if you wanted to study history of theatre at MA level or something related there would probably be no need for A Levels - you would have proved yourself of being capable to write already. If you were educated here and have a good set of GCSEs that would back you up too. I have even heard of someone who went to Cambridge to study English literature after finishing at Royal Ballet upper school and her dancing record helped her get in ! If you decide to retrain in medical areas and computer science you also are able to get student loans for degrees. Hope that helps ! 
 

 

[SpideyDad]

14 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Good question! I think that logically the diploma/degree is a higher level if qualification (level 5 or 6) than A Levels (level 3). I am only guessing here but usually if you already have a degree you would be looking at a post graduate qualification (MA for example). My daughter would have chosen art and English (and probably history) too. I think if you wanted to study history of theatre at MA level or something related there would probably be no need for A Levels - you would have proved yourself of being capable to write already. If you were educated here and have a good set of GCSEs that would back you up too. I have even heard of someone who went to Cambridge to study English literature after finishing at Royal Ballet upper school and her dancing record helped her get in ! If you decide to retrain in medical areas and computer science you also are able to get student loans for degrees. Hope that helps ! 
 

 

It's probably worth a conversation with a careers advisor to see what can be done with the Academic credit you get from the schools (if it's outside of their experience, they should know someone who can help)..

 

My understanding is that Unis and Employers understand the discipline, drive, talent and sheer bloody-mindedness it takes to get to a dance graduate level: this translates to Academia or the workplace really well.

Edited September 19, 2023 by SpideyDad

[Allwrong]

Anna C's point about funding is vital for UK students. Some subjects, primarily medical, scientific, and architecture are eligible for a second undergraduate degree funding (but do check carefully!). But any others are not available for funding if you have obtained a degree, even if you have entirely self-funded. DD started vocational training at 18 having completed a normal academic sixth form. We chose a dance school abroad with low fees, very cheap accommodation available locally, and crucially no degree qualification, and self-funded to allow for a academic degree in an arts subject in this country in addition. But this is probably not the choice of most people.

 

UK Universities do not offer places without A Levels or equivalent, and student finance will not bend the rules however impressive the candidate. That said, the exemption list to the 'no funding if you already have a degree' rule is quite wide-ranging. https://www.gov.uk/student-finance/who-qualifies

[Jewel]

I sent a direct enquiry to a Cambridge college regarding entry to their degree courses as my child has 2 A levels which were taken alongside her dance diploma.

 

The reply was helpful.  They will not accept the dance diploma for entry to any of their courses.  The options would be to go back to college or do an online course to study for a further A level or to study an Open University Certificate of Higher Education prior to applying for an undergraduate course.  

[ThatDancingGirl]

@Jewelthat's interesting and very helpful. Interesting they would not accept the diploma even if it's higher level than the a level. May I ask how your child managed the a levels alongside the dance diploma? 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

20 minutes ago, Jewel said:

I sent a direct enquiry to a Cambridge college regarding entry to their degree courses as my child has 2 A levels which were taken alongside her dance diploma.

 

The reply was helpful.  They will not accept the dance diploma for entry to any of their courses.  The options would be to go back to college or do an online course to study for a further A level or to study an Open University Certificate of Higher Education prior to applying for an undergraduate course.  

I can confirm the same is the case for universities we have visited so far. 3 A Levels, and for certain programmes, they require specific A Level subjects for at least one of those 3 A levels. Some universities, however, may have contextualised entry requirements. These are the ones that may accept a diploma in lieu of a third A level.

[batmanballetshoes]

@Jewel @Neverdancedjustamum copy that! And mine has a BA in dance 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[ThatDancingGirl]

@Neverdancedjustamum @Jewelthat's what I was worried about. 

[alison]

My phone swallowed my original reply a few hours ago, but I was trying to say that I thought the Royal Ballet Upper School offered (a limited selection of) A-levels?  Or perhaps that has changed in recent years?

[ThatDancingGirl]

@alison from what I found on their curriculum policy (latest update 2021) there's a possibility of taking one A level. 

[Out-the-other-side]

It is worth noting that for many (if not all) unis,  A levels needed to have been awarded in the same year (ie you couldn’t top up with a third A level studied later) This precludes the more prestigious Russell group unis who need certain grades in 3 A levels. Those operating on a UCAS points system were for us the only option - and boy were we glad of that random one-off Cecchetti exam she sat in year 10…🤣

[margarite]

I’ve never added up the Ucas points from DD’s Intermediate exams (tap, modern and ballet) before, but according to the Ucas calculator she has just under a hundred … handy to have in the bag for the future!

 

Not strictly a ballet school, but  Hammond also does A-levels alongside the Trinity  Diploma 👍

Edited September 19, 2023 by margarite

[Pixiewoo]

When DD was looking at Uni courses, none of her vocational exam (dance/ drama/ music) UCAS points counted for anything! ( and she has several hundreds! )

Edited September 19, 2023 by Pixiewoo
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[Kerfuffle]

I think my DD might  like to become a theatre critic with an MA following her BA - I think you can use your dance degree in lots of interesting ways! There are so many creative jobs to consider. But right now she’s focusing on her ballet training. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Kerfuffle

[Justkeepsmiling]

There is also the option to do an Access to Higher Education course at a local college after the Level 6 Diploma. These can take one/two years to complete and a lot of them are related to health professional careers which is good because those degrees tend to be eligible for student finance as a  ‘second degree’. It’s worth bearing in mind that Level 6 diplomas that have been funded by DaDAs can be viewed as a ‘degree’ even though they aren’t an actual degree and even though you haven’t used student finance to pay for it. It’s worth checking with Student Finance where you live on this as it seems to vary throughout the U.K. .

[ThatDancingGirl]

thank you everyone. lots to think about and look into. obviously hope ballet works out for her (that's her dream) but given everything i've read on this forum chances seem very low to make it all the way through the hurdles and then finally into a company. 

[Janeparent]

8 hours ago, Swanwings said:

Hello @ThatDancingGirl, I cant comment on what the courses are like as my dd is still yr 11, but I do know that Elmhurst and Tring both offer Alevel options if thats any help. 

 

Elmhurst only offer two A’ levels (from a very limited choice of subjects) which, as has been pointed out, isn’t usually enough for university entry. The only place which offers three, with a good range of subject options, is Tring. 

[WhatsThePointe]

At Elmhurst you can only choose from Art, Geography, Eng Lit or Maths.

[Janeparent]

33 minutes ago, WhatsThePointe said:

At Elmhurst you can only choose from Art, Geography, Eng Lit or Maths.

I don’t think it’s a free choice from those either, unless things have changed: my understanding was that it used to be either English and art or maths and biology (which seems to have been changed now to geography). 

[Lifeafterballet]

1 hour ago, Janeparent said:

Elmhurst only offer two A’ levels (from a very limited choice of subjects) which, as has been pointed out, isn’t usually enough for university entry. The only place which offers three, with a good range of subject options, is Tring. 

It does all depend on the Degree that the student with only 2 A levels is applying for. 
My daughter, and others in her year group, were very successful with University offers after A levels. 
It’s hard work to manage 2 A Levels, a Trinity Diploma and full time vocational ballet training. I can’t really see how you could do 3 😅 Something would have to give. 

[Janeparent]

46 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

It does all depend on the Degree that the student with only 2 A levels is applying for. 
My daughter, and others in her year group, were very successful with University offers after A levels. 
It’s hard work to manage 2 A Levels, a Trinity Diploma and full time vocational ballet training. I can’t really see how you could do 3 😅 Something would have to give. 

I agree that more than all that would be extremely difficult. My personal opinion is that it would be better to take the Trinity Diploma out of the equation, and instead offer three A’ levels alongside the full time ballet training.

[Peanut68]

Factor in also that often the hike up to A level can be a shock in certain subjects & lead to a wish to change or drop subjects in any school…. This is especially limiting if subject choices already restricted as at dance schools that offer A levels. Also if it’s first time away from home plus maybe even living independently in flat style accommodation, factor in the new calls on their time such as shopping/cooking/laundry plus the socialising factors that become more present as they get older (partners/clubbing etc etc) 

It is easy at start out to think all is possible…. And some indeed may achieve A levels alongside Diploma/dance studies. But many do drop some/all and that can lead to disappointments (for them/you/teachers) & have negative knock on effects. Better to have realistic goals & also really question long term motivation. If ultimately a university degree in an academic subject is desired I think better to either park the full time dance til after A levels or park the A levels & Uni entry until after dance career…. Lots of dancers join premier uni courses (with it without usual A levels but with added life skills/experience helping to get them on courses & sponsors often too!) 
Studying for 3 A levels in mainstream school can lead to huge pressures & issues….so we do need to think about the physical & mental health & welfare of our youngsters….& allow them to have sone fun too at this defining stage of life! All just my personal opinion…

 

[ThatDancingGirl]

All very good points and helpful to know. @Lifeafterballet that's great to hear it was possible for your DC and others in the year group with the 2 A levels. 

[Kerfuffle]

Better to have realistic goals & also really question long term motivation. If ultimately a university degree in an academic subject is desired I think better to either park the full time dance til after A levels or park the A levels & Uni entry until after dance career…. Lots of dancers join premier uni courses (with it without usual A levels but with added life skills/experience helping to get them on courses & sponsors often too!) 
Studying for 3 A levels in mainstream school can lead to huge pressures & issues…

 

My opinion too. A levels are demanding enough just on their own, a huge step up from GCSEs. If for whatever reason my DD’s career doesn’t materialise she will still be very young at the end of her course, barely older than her contemporaries finishing A Levels - she can catch up. If she is successful she can do as Peanut says above. Vocational training is very intense, involving long days of study, a lot of mental energy is involved in concentrating on refining those skills in ballet let alone the classroom.

[Jewel]

18 hours ago, ThatDancingGirl said:

@Jewelthat's interesting and very helpful. Interesting they would not accept the diploma even if it's higher level than the a level. May I ask how your child managed the a levels alongside the dance diploma? 

 

She went to one of the schools that offered A levels. Academic classes were mostly scheduled in the mornings.  

[Jewel]

*I agree that more than all that would be extremely difficult. My personal opinion is that it would be better to take the Trinity Diploma out of the equation, and instead offer three A’ levels alongside the full time ballet training.*

 

It's the Trinity diploma that gives access to the funding though.

[Kerfuffle]

I guess it’s all swings and roundabouts! My thinking is you have your whole life to study academics but there is only a brief window where you can train to be a dancer, it’s like being an athlete. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Kerfuffle