A Levels in Ballet Upper Schools-Any insight?

[margarite]

Yes I agree @Kerfuffle speaking as someone who didn’t start a degree until my mid 20s (graduated at nearly 27) it did me no harm and have subsequently had a good career in my chosen area, catching up with my peers despite them having a six-year head start. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by margarite

[Allwrong]

I think it's entirely true that academics can wait while dance can't, but you still need to factor in future university funding, of course.

It also depends on what you want from the university experience: growing up intellectually along with your peers is a very rich experience which you do miss out on somewhat as a mature student. The formal learning and qualifications are the same, but the late nights putting the world to rights and the intellectual locking of horns / spreading your wings in animated conversation are harder to muscle in on. Horrible mixed metaphors: apologies! I sometimes wonder to what extent these experiences are still a key part of 'uni' life, however...

[Peanut68]

Having recently been on the University Open Day tour circuit for non dance offspring (& looking at STEM focussed places/courses) I’ve been gobsmacked at just how fantastic the opportunities & facilities a university life can offer….as one who never went to uni nor really had any family do the typical uni routes this was such an eye opener! Even these unis had amazing arts provision (so can only imagine how great opportunities for dance/drama etc are in more arts focused unis too!)

Wish I’d looked at unis before primary schools to actually see what is out there longterm to provide a broader range of scenarios to offspring for short term leading to longterm academic decisions! And truly if a dancing offspring is of Oxbridge level I’d think the choice is either go all out for that now or completely park & go all out dance now to then refocus several years later for mature student entry. Trying to do both now I suspect could lead to burn out or a ‘what might of been had I just done x or y instead of tried to do both?’ scenario. 

[Peanut68]

7 minutes ago, Allwrong said:

but the late nights putting the world to rights and the intellectual locking of horns / spreading your wings

Not to mention the parties/clubbing sessions & no doubt sexual experimentations & house share options which could all be somewhat less available/appropriate as a mature student!! 

[AlwaysBallet]

22 hours ago, ThatDancingGirl said:

Hello there. I am new to this forum but I was hoping to ask those of you with knowledge of ENBS or other upper schools how it works as my dd(currently in year 10 at a normal secondary) would like to apply to upper schools in ballet after finishing GCSEs but I would love her to be able to continue with a levels some how so she can have her plan B available to apply to uni should it not pan out with a ballet career. Looking on ENBS website it seems there aren't options for online learning to do such thing? And it seems upon graduating they'd still need to do 18 months of learning to get a degree is that right? But CSB and RBS for example skip A levels all together and once finished the 3 years gain a BA? But from what I gather RBS also offers options for students to do online a levels instead if they wanted? I'd love any insight into this from those of you ahead of me. Thanks so much 

RBS do offer online A-Levels - they are given fabulous support by the staff throughout the process. The kids are extremely busy with vocational and degree work, so this needs to be considered when choosing.

[Allwrong]

38 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

 (Having recently been on the University Open Day tour circuit for non dance offspring (& looking at STEM focussed places/courses) I’ve been gobsmacked at just how fantastic the opportunities & facilities a university life can offer….as one who never went to uni nor really had any family do the typical uni routes this was such an eye opener! Even these unis had amazing arts provision (so can only imagine how great opportunities for dance/drama etc are in more arts focused unis too!)

Wish I’d looked at unis before primary schools to actually see what is out there longterm to provide a broader range of scenarios to offspring for short term leading to longterm academic decisions! And truly if a dancing offspring is of Oxbridge level I’d think the choice is either go all out for that now or completely park & go all out dance now to then refocus several years later for mature student entry. Trying to do both now I suspect could lead to burn out or a ‘what might of been had I just done x or y instead of tried to do both?’ scenario. 

Very true re amazing opportunities. My non-dancing son has a musical life beyond anything I imagined (and I was quite well informed), whilst studying history: everything from chamber music with visiting professional musicians to raucous student-devised musicals, including full-scale orchestras and as many recitals/ devised performances as he can dream up. Very creative world, with equally good opportunities for drama, somewhat less for dance but still fun,competitions and facilities to put on whatever you have the energy to piece together (and excellent musicians for live music).

[Allwrong]

1 hour ago, Peanut68 said:

Not to mention the parties/clubbing sessions & no doubt sexual experimentations & house share options which could all be somewhat less available/appropriate as a mature student!! 

My point about the entirely missable parts of the modern re-imagining of 'uni' life 🤐

[expatballetmom]

Not being from UK but currently living in the UK, I have another question which I hope isn't too confusing- could you possibly not do the Trinity Diploma for example, and just do A levels or an Intl Baccalaureate or a U.S. online school or is that not possible?

[ThatDancingGirl]

@expatballetmom that was what I was trying to understand but it looks like not many A level options avail (if at all) and not seen anything with an IB. I do think one could do something completely different such as an online school and I have emailed the schools she's considering to ask more information about that. I imagine the international students coming to the UK for ballet upper schools do this? 

[Kerfuffle]

1 hour ago, expatballetmom said:

Not being from UK but currently living in the UK, I have another question which I hope isn't too confusing- could you possibly not do the Trinity Diploma for example, and just do A levels or an Intl Baccalaureate or a U.S. online school or is that not possible?

Do you mean in general or at ENBS specifically ? I’m not sure how you’d avoid doing the diploma - the  academics   and dancing are what the diploma course fundamentally is. 

https://www.trinitycollege.com/qualifications/PPAD/level-6-dance

Doing A levels on the side could be possible but would be hard to fit in, their days at ballet school are very busy and long. The international students are also doing the diploma I think. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Kerfuffle
Making it clearer

[ThatDancingGirl]

@Kerfuffle I just meant in general wondering how the international students manage as they don't do A levels so if they were finishing off the high school or equivelant or if doing the diploma. I see what you mean for ENBS and don't really think A levels on top of that would be a good idea. Don't even know if she'll get into these upper schools but just trying to wrap my head around what all the various pathways could be. 

[Kerfuffle]

37 minutes ago, ThatDancingGirl said:

@Kerfuffle I just meant in general wondering how the international students manage as they don't do A levels so if they were finishing off the high school or equivelant or if doing the diploma. I see what you mean for ENBS and don't really think A levels on top of that would be a good idea. Don't even know if she'll get into these upper schools but just trying to wrap my head around what all the various pathways could be. 

It is a lot to get your head around, we discussed all options and it’s the best thing to do ! My DD hasn’t mentioned that any of her international friends are doing online  studies. An American girl we met in the summer on an intensive said that she did online studies alongside her course at European Ballet School but I think maybe because she was only 15 and there wasn’t a formal qualification offered they allowed for that. I think in USA the students have time to do online studies as well as ballet training, maybe shorter hours. Perhaps the other Europeans recognise the diploma with degree option as being enough for them. I guess that if you’re moving countries to train you are probably more focused on your ballet education! 

[glowlight]

My very personal opinion is that if your dc is committed to being a dancer and lucky and talented enough to get a place at a vocational ballet school, and that school doesn't offer A Levels as part of its curriculum, they should throw themselves entirely into their ballet training at this stage. It is hard enough without putting extra stress into the equation, and you could end up in the position where neither strand is given the full attention that it warrants.

 

Plan B's are a great idea, but don't have to be pursued in parallel. You can only train as a ballet dancer when you are young, you can do academic qualifications at any age, and the many non-dance skills which you learn during dance training (planning, work ethic, team work, persistence) will stand them in good stead whatever they choose to do when they finally decide to hang up their ballet shoes.

[alison]

I think I remember someone, Beatriz Stix-Brunell, perhaps, who finished her schooling online/by correspondence after joining the Royal Ballet?

[Guest oncnp]

15 minutes ago, alison said:

I think I remember someone, Beatriz Stix-Brunell, perhaps, who finished her schooling online/by correspondence after joining the Royal Ballet?

I believe she finished US high school. Not sure of the UK education equivalent. Sixth form?

Edited September 20, 2023 by oncnp

[Allwrong]

Actually strongly agree with glowlight that the two (academics and dance) should be separated. A Levels or whatever can be done better in every sense when done wholeheartedly, and that is so clearly the case for ballet. 
The problem is that UK vocational schools have gamed the financial system by slapping on a degree / diploma to get access to student finance for UK students. Sadly the result is that the post dance A Level/ degree route is much more difficult logistically/ financially thereafter for many (though not all).

[Allwrong]

Meant to say there is a good side to this as it makes vocational training more available to a greater number of UK dancers.

[Kerfuffle]

The good thing is though that you don’t have to pay it back unlike a uni loans. I feel grateful it exists - it’s  much harder for the international students. 

[glowlight]

Just want to add to what I said earlier, that I think it is REALLY important to get as good a set of GCSEs as possible (for those outside the UK these are the exams which our teenagers take at 16). This will set them in good stead to pick up academic study later if that's what they want to do. I just think that when it comes to that hard gained once in a lifetime opportunity of upper school, it should be embraced fully.

 

[Out-the-other-side]

4 minutes ago, glowlight said:

Just want to add to what I said earlier, that I think it is REALLY important to get as good a set of GCSEs as possible (for those outside the UK these are the exams which our teenagers take at 16). This will set them in good stead to pick up academic study later if that's what they want to do. I just think that when it comes to that hard gained once in a lifetime opportunity of upper school, it should be embraced fully.

 

I agree that the dance should be the focus and of course every student is different but I do feel there is probably a limit to how much physical exertion a body can safely do in one day. My DD is of the personality type that she would have just continued to push her body in the studio and the gym if she hadn’t had to break to study.  (Plus, as alluded to in the Panorama thread, a safe space away from the studio with non dancing, often very supportive academic teachers is a godsend) Of course, there is always the third, post A level graduate year to really strive for the dance goal.
Elmhurst really pushed the plan B and of course none of them felt at the time they were going to need it. But psychologically, for  my DD at least, when covid derailed plan A, to feel plan B was already in place helped ease the sense of panic. To be able to move fairly seamlessly to uni life, not feeling she had to ‘start over’, was incredibly important for her mental well being. This, of course, may not be the case for every dancer.

[Kerfuffle]

I totally get what you’re saying but my DD is new to vocational school and is delighted to finally be able to devote herself to ballet. Juggling 10 GCSEs at an ordinary secondary school and dancing  late every evening nearly wore her out. I think she’s so happy to have the academic content of her course relating to her dancing, there really isn’t any need for her to be pushing herself with other subjects. 

[BaffledBalletMum]

On 19/09/2023 at 10:25, Jewel said:

I sent a direct enquiry to a Cambridge college regarding entry to their degree courses as my child has 2 A levels which were taken alongside her dance diploma.

 

The reply was helpful.  They will not accept the dance diploma for entry to any of their courses.  The options would be to go back to college or do an online course to study for a further A level or to study an Open University Certificate of Higher Education prior to applying for an undergraduate course.  

Assuming it was an option. Did your DC pursue the BA top up from Middlesex University? Wondering how that is received.  

[Mummy twinkle toes]

For anyone who is doing the Trinity diploma, Italia Conti and Middlesex University are offering a 1 year top up degree. Funding available via Student Loans. It converts the diploma into a BA degree which Unis will accept if you want to go onto M level study:

https://www.italiaconti.com/courses/ba-hons-professional-arts-practice/

 

https://www.mdx.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/professional-practice-arts

Both are distance learning so no maintenance loan usually but fees paid via student finance.
 

 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

1 minute ago, BaffledBalletMum said:

Assuming it was an option. Did your DC pursue the BA top up from Middlesex University? Wondering how that is received.  

Posted at the same time 😉

[Anna C]

13 hours ago, glowlight said:

Just want to add to what I said earlier, that I think it is REALLY important to get as good a set of GCSEs as possible (for those outside the UK these are the exams which our teenagers take at 16). This will set them in good stead to pick up academic study later if that's what they want to do. I just think that when it comes to that hard gained once in a lifetime opportunity of upper school, it should be embraced fully.

 

Yes, this is vital in my opinion.  That GCSE/audition period is exhausting and ridiculously busy BUT so important.  If you have the best GCSE grades you can manage, in a range of facilitating subjects (eg Maths, English Lang, then preferably a language, at least one science, and either Music or a humanity), you’re in the best position to change pathway if necessary.  

[Kerfuffle]

6 hours ago, Anna C said:

Yes, this is vital in my opinion.  That GCSE/audition period is exhausting and ridiculously busy BUT so important.  If you have the best GCSE grades you can manage, in a range of facilitating subjects (eg Maths, English Lang, then preferably a language, at least one science, and either Music or a humanity), you’re in the best position to change pathway if necessary.  

That is so reassuring - my DD has a good set which I hope will stand her in good stead in the future. It was a fairly hideous slog but worth it ! 

[Anna C]

12 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

That is so reassuring - my DD has a good set which I hope will stand her in good stead in the future. It was a fairly hideous slog but worth it ! 

Well done to her (and you!).  I remember it well! 

[BaffledBalletMum]

On 20/09/2023 at 10:52, Kerfuffle said:

Do you mean in general or at ENBS specifically ? I’m not sure how you’d avoid doing the diploma - the  academics   and dancing are what the diploma course fundamentally is. 

https://www.trinitycollege.com/qualifications/PPAD/level-6-dance

Doing A levels on the side could be possible but would be hard to fit in, their days at ballet school are very busy and long. The international students are also doing the diploma I think. 

The diploma is the basis of the sixth form at Elmhurst, ENBS and RBS. It is not optional and all students complete (or pursue) the diploma as 80 percent is earned through the in-studio artistic dance training. My understanding is that at Elmhurst and RBS, the A-levels are optional for all students, not only international students. Often international students don't take A-levels or only take one A-level and use the in-school time to complete degrees in their home countries. This flexibility is appreciated, and of course the international students continuing on outside degrees from other countries must be extremely disciplined to get it all done. 

[Out-the-other-side]

3 minutes ago, BaffledBalletMum said:

The diploma is the basis of the sixth form at Elmhurst, ENBS and RBS. It is not optional and all students complete (or pursue) the diploma as 80 percent is earned through the in-studio artistic dance training. My understanding is that at Elmhurst and RBS, the A-levels are optional for all students, not only international students. Often international students don't take A-levels or only take one A-level and use the in-school time to complete degrees in their home countries. This flexibility is appreciated, and of course the international students continuing on outside degrees from other countries must be extremely disciplined to get it all done. 

There is also the option to complete an EPQ (Extended Project Qualification) alongside A levels. This is a level 3 qualification that carries UCAS points. 

[annekh510]

Hi, I would like to offer some encouragement from my child having taking an unusual path, but not dance.

 

You are able to apply with “special circumstances”, I don’t recall the exact process (e.g. whether it was generic via UCAS, or each university, I know she did have to do a separate special consideration form for Cambridge but that wasn’t surprising as you also have to do a separate application form), but it was a lot of extra form filling in to explain the circumstances. She does now have three A-Levels, but only in two subjects (Maths, Further Maths, Physics), which would be fine if she was going for Maths or maybe Physics/Engineering/Computing, but she wasn’t. Also, a year ago, when applying, she was three weeks into attempting to do that in a year, so, dropping the Further Maths was a strong possibility.

 

She applied to Cambridge, 3 other Russell Group universities and Lancaster, all for some variation of Linguistics (Lancaster is actually second ranked for Linguistics, so it not being Russell Group probably has no impact on how applications were handled in this subject). She was pooled at Cambridge, but not taken out of it, got unconditional offers from two universities (including Lancaster) and ABB from the other two. I’ll be taking her up to Lancaster on Sunday.

 

13 months ago we were frantic, we didn’t even have a school organised for last year, but we actually discovered there were many options, she probably could have got on a foundation year without taking a year to do some A-Levels, or she could have started out on a traditional 2 year A-Level course, or she could have been homeschooled by the method of doing A-Levels online. A-Levels online were surprisingly cheap (under a thousand) and included everything.

 

I think that if you apply with special circumstances things like the requirement for them all to be taken in one session can be removed, what can be more important is how recent it is, e.g. graduate medical course require Chemistry A-Level to have been taken within the last 7 years. 

 

Hope this helps.

[Ondine]

On 20/09/2023 at 19:00, alison said:

I think I remember someone, Beatriz Stix-Brunell, perhaps, who finished her schooling online/by correspondence after joining the Royal Ballet?

 

She danced with Christopher Wheeldon's company from 14 and now she's gone to uni in the US full time,  she was doing academic work online via Skype while dancing at the RB.  She's from the US.

 

She was very successful at the RB, first soloist, maybe would have made top rank, but clearly, felt she wanted something different.

 

Quite an interesting ballet / academic journey.  That includes her with mother and brother moving to Paris for a while to attend POB school.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatriz_Stix-Brunell

 

Quite an achiever.

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

37 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

She danced with Christopher Wheeldon's company from 14 and now she's gone to uni in the US full time,  she was doing academic work online via Skype while dancing at the RB.  She's from the US.

 

She was very successful at the RB, first soloist, maybe would have made top rank, but clearly, felt she wanted something different.

 

Quite an interesting ballet / academic journey.  That includes her with mother and brother moving to Paris for a while to attend POB school.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatriz_Stix-Brunell

 

Quite an achiever.

 

 

Absolutely. And not just any university too, she’s at Stanford doing what sounds like the most fascinating yet intensive interdisciplinary major (almost like a combination of medical sciences and computing). Ironically, it was after seeing an interview of Bea and reading an article about her going to university that inspired my DD to focus on academics and prioritise her studies. My DD has had the pleasure of meeting Bea a few times and she’s just as smart and funny in person as she is on her Instagram posts. She’s just a joy, a wonderful dancer of course but she always gave the vibe of being chilled and not taking life too seriously (in a good way). 
 

https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/03/08/act-ii-beatriz-stix-brunell-25-leaps-faith-life-beyond-stage/

 

 

[Crystaltips]

On 19/09/2023 at 13:28, ThatDancingGirl said:

Thank you for the replies. I guess I should also add I'm not from the UK so while my children have been born and educated here, the education system is very new to me. (as is the ballet world on top of that- non dancing family  ) DD is academic and into arts in general if she were to do a levels it would be art and english related subjects but I guess it's not feasible to do them alongside the upper school ballet training from what I'm gathering. So schools like Tring and Elmhurst seem to cover all the ground. But if she wanted to go the route of ENBS or others, and she had to resort to a plan b would that not require going back to take the a levels or do uk unis not require it if she had the degree? Again, apologies for being clueless here. It's such a competitive world in ballet and I just worry about not having the back up plan. 

It would depend on what they wanted to do. But it is possible to go back and do A levels later. All students are entitled to a free course of A levels as part of their education. Be warned that if you start and then drop out due to pressure of combining with dance you would be expected to pay for a second attempt. 6th form colleges and schools will generally not take over 18s at least that was our experience however FE colleges will. As I posted on another thread my ex dd took 3 science A levels beginning at the grand old age of 20. She is now really happy at University and being a bit older has not been an issue.