Clapping

[Jan McNulty]

Perhaps I've misunderstood, but I assumed that Bill's choice of "Clapping" as a title rather than "Applause", which I'd have thought more likely as a general title, did specifically refer to the phenomenon I referred to in post no. 5, rather than applause in general.  If so, we're going a bit off-track here.

 

 

 

My fault Alison because clapping etiquette had been mentioned on another thread.

 

That's partly why I asked Bill later in the thread if the clapping he was referring to was the claque-type clapping I have read about as being common in parts of Russia.

[SwissBalletFan]

I haven't seen any performances in Italy but I have in the other countries you mention (albeit only one in Geneva) and also Denmark and Hong Kong and I do not remember any huge amounts of what I would consider inappropriate clapping (i.e. huge amounts of clapping while dancing going on, enforced pauses for dancers to acknowledge applause etc) in any of them.

 

Could you please give us some specific examples.

 

 

Janet, in terms of huge amounts of clapping going on, or enforced pauses for dancers to appreciate applause are extreme examples of clapping.

 

In terms of the points you agreed with Billboyd about....Last night in Zurich (and always) there was clapping and cheers for variations of Myrtha, Giselle, and Albrecht at all variations and PDDs.Applause for Hilario's death is reserved for when the dancing is particularly impressive.

 

In Zurich there is also big applause when the darkness is on at the end of Romeo & Juliet. I have seen Giselle in all of the countries I mention, and the applause is in more or less the same places.

 

I've seen Swan Lake in Italy, USA, Germany, and Switzerland, and there was sustained applause for variations and even during dancing in cases if virtuosity as the music and dancing lends itself to that.

This was what I took from Bill's statement to be inappropriate clapping during narrative ballets and in my experience, all countries I mention applaud variations and pdds in the most classical of ballets where the music lends itself to the emotion. Although (I agree) it can snap the audience out of an emotion.

Edited January 3, 2016 by SwissBalletFan

[SwissBalletFan]

To be fair, Billboyd, moved the conversation on himself, by citing when it is (in his opinion) inappropriate to applaud in a ballet, so I do not think it was linked only to a russian method of applause.

Edited January 3, 2016 by SwissBalletFan

[billboyd]

When the lights go down on Juliet lying 'dead' in her bedroom.

[Beryl H]

I've always taken the Russian slow hand-clap to be a form of extra approval, in fact the English audiences join in at Russian performances in London sometimes, I've done so myself, usually at the end of the evening, I remember the last night of the Bolshoi's Flames of Paris 

 

Sometimes though I believe organised "claques" or just extra enthusiastic fans in Russia do it throughout the evening, then it does get wearisome.

[zxDaveM]

When the lights go down on Juliet lying 'dead' in her bedroom.

 

 You mean where the friends have found her and the family come in and start grieving? I always find myself holding my breath at that point, and applause at such a heart wrenching moment seems way off kilter to me. Seems most folk just clap cos the stage in darkness at that point.

[John Mallinson]

And if we're going to talk about clapping, what about booing (fortunately a rarity in the ballet world).

[Jan McNulty]

When the lights go down on Juliet lying 'dead' in her bedroom.

 

 

Exactly Bill.  I have heard people starting to clap at this point but fortunately most seem to realise and stop.  Mind you, I have to confess that I have been equally noisy at that point on occasions, not clapping but sobbing out loud.

[simonbfisher]

Cuban audiences always clap Giselle's death, even as she is sliding lifeless to the floor .... Very odd.

[Odyssey]

I'd be interested to know what dancers think. On a superficial level, prolonged applause at the end of the first variation of a pas de deux must be welcome for the longer respite before an impending solo. But when there's clapping in the middle of a dramatic scene, I wonder if It can disturb a dancer's immersion in the character.

[SwissBalletFan]

I haven't seen any performances in Italy but I have in the other countries you mention (albeit only one in Geneva) and also Denmark and Hong Kong and I do not remember any huge amounts of what I would consider inappropriate clapping (i.e. huge amounts of clapping while dancing going on, enforced pauses for dancers to acknowledge applause etc) in any of them.

 

Could you please give us some specific examples.

 

 

So, Janet, have I clarified my point about UK vs World to your satisfaction and experiences?

[bangorballetboy]

So, Janet, have I clarified my point about UK vs World to your satisfaction and experiences?

Please stop being so confrontational.

[SwissBalletFan]

Please stop being so confrontational.

 

I am sorry that you feel that way, and it wasn't my intention at all.

 

However, I have made my views and taken the time to detail from Janet's request after being challenged about my views. I feel that having taken the time, and detailed my experiences that I didn't get any thoughts back having made the effort.

 

Therefore I was simply asking, whether my views concurred with her experiences based upon the updated definition of what was defined as 'excessive clapping'. That's all.

[FLOSS]

In the early nineteenth century in Britain leading actors in the spoken theatre performing Shakespeare delivered their big speeches using traditional stage business and making points within the text they were delivering which goes some way to explain Hazlitt's  description of  Edmund Kean's performances being like having the text illuminated by lightening. The audience response to this style of acting was not that dissimilar to an Italian audience responding to a well sung aria. It was in large part an acknowledgement that the actor had delivered what was expected and the audience had noticed it, Perhaps not so much the spontaneous response to an overwhelmingly moving scene but the theatrical equivalent of  "Well played".

 

It seems  that as actor's performance practice altered in the mid to late nineteenth century and the high oratorical style of delivery went out of fashion and was abandoned audience behaviour changed too. In came the new naturalistic drama of people like Tom Robinson and audiences became accustomed to watching stage action and listening to actors in serious plays in silence, I think that this influenced audience behaviour in the lyric theatre too.

 

I think most audiences would deny that their silent response to ballet or opera mid act is anything to do with British reserve and say that it has everything to do with being engrossed in the stage action and not wanting to break the spell.I think some people are as irritated by applause mid scene or mid pas as they would be if the person next to them was singing along with the music, had a noisy charm bracelet which they were jangling or had their mobile phone ring mid aria. I have to admit that I found it hilarious to watch a performance of Lucia di Lammermoor in Vienna in which having  sung the mad aria Edita Gruberova rushed to the front of the stage mid scene to garner applause much as Russian dancers do mid pas, I found it incongruous and I wondered what the audience response would have been in London? Laughter perhaps?

 

Russians dancers may have been bemused by the lack of response from British audiences mid act but I don't think that they had much to complain of at the end of an act or at the end of a performance. I recall reading Nadia Nerina saying that when she danced in Russia although the company thought it odd that she danced through and did not acknowledge applause she thought that to stop to acknowledge the audience must affect the overall impact of the performance.

 

So as with much else in Europe we all have our own local cultures for all sorts of activities, and, cultures within cultures. I assume that while the  audience for ballet and Italian opera in Zurich may be  more  demonstrative than in London mid scene that the audience at operas by Wagner or Strauss does not burst into spontaneous applause mid act.

 

I have never thought about audience behavior in the theatre in terms of U and non U behaviour.i don't associate theatregoing with social class perhaps because I grew up at a time when theatre tickets were heavily subsidised and audiences did not seem  to be drawn from such a limited social group as they do

now, Theatre going was more of a universal experience for all social groups because nearly everyone went to a pantomime at Christmas. I think that some of the worst behaviour at ballet performances that I have experienced, not unnecessary applause, but just old fashioned anti social behaviour,talking during the overture and when no one is actually moving on stage has  come from nice ladies sitting in expensive seats who , in any other set of circumstances,would be regarded as the upholders of law and order and the backbone of their communities.

Edited January 3, 2016 by FLOSS

[taxi4ballet]

If you ask me, there's nothing worse (or more excruciating for the performers) than the audience not clapping when they are supposed to

[GTL]

FLOSS hits the nail on the head in post 47, we may be comparatively new to ballet but our communal experience in the UK as an audience is influenced by our long theatrical tradition, to which most British schoolchildren are exposed from infancy through to exam set texts.

My impression is that scene changes in plays nowadays are structured to maintain pace and atmosphere by suppressing applause. Entrance and exit applause, which I believe was the norm here sixty years ago, is simply not done at the likes of the National Theatre and is confined to the sort of West End mega-celebrity shows that attract a rather different audience profile - some would say less sophisticated, others would say less jaded.

In complete contrast we have pantomime with exuberant audience participation at a level which would startle even a Bolshoi star.

And then there is the rafter-shaking foot-stamping reserved in my experience for the end of those exceptional Osipova/Vassiliev "Don Quixote" and "Flames of Paris" performances - is that universal or just a Covent Garden custom? (NOT a rhetorical question, I'm asking because I don't get around much these days.)

My rules:

(1) no applause while the music is playing. It's playing for a reason and should not be drowned out.

(2) I don't mind the conductor pausing for applause after a particularly demanding section in the classics to give the dancers a breathing space but I expect the modern rep to be played straight through without breaks.

(3) visiting companies to confine their curtain calls to the end of the show.

[Jan McNulty]

Great posts Floss and GTL!

[Petunia]

This is completely anecdotal and by no means an evaluation on Italian ballet audiences in general.

 

I was at one of Ferri’s last performances she did in Milano, Balanchine’s Midsummer Night’s Dream.

 

As there are many children dancing in the first act, the excitement up there where we sat was audible (many parents and siblings in the audience) and they were clapping enthusiastically every time the children moved.

 

Ferri was sublime and I was totally enraptured. I expected her to be celebrated with roaring applause, standing ovations and curtain calls but how mistaken I was. Polite clapping, curtain opened and closed twice, that was it.

 

I have to admit I was disappointed…by the audience, for not clapping enough ;-)...!

[bridiem]

This is anecdotal too, but I've quite often been disappointed by the audience not clapping enough generally! (There's a limit to how much one person can help it along...). There are plenty of performances where I would happily go on clapping for ages afterwards (but I realise that the dancers are probably aching to go home by then). I get frustrated when sometime curtain calls are 'milked' and at other times the curtain stays down when I'm sure more calls could have been taken. I'm not sure to what extent the number of calls is completely fixed in advance or are a real reflection of the audience's response.

[Jan McNulty]

I think the number of curtain calls are fixed! I've often been at performances where the applause looks set to continue but the curtain stays put and the house lights go on...

[Wulff]

In some youtube clips of Russsian ballet performances the audience can be heard clapping in time to the music, especially when fouettes are being performed. Fortunately this is not a part of British culture except in "Strictly come dancing".

[Jan McNulty]

In some youtube clips of Russsian ballet performances the audience can be heard clapping in time to the music, especially when fouettes are being performed. Fortunately this is not a part of British culture except in "Strictly come dancing".

 

 

Oh dear Wulff, some of us clap along and tra la la la at the end of Fille and sing along to Lily of Laguna in Hobsons.  I hang my head in shame...

[Wulff]

Oh dear Wulff, some of us clap along and tra la la la at the end of Fille and sing along to Lily of Laguna in Hobsons.  I hang my head in shame...

 

I was going to mention the end of Fille as a possible exception, but didn't, since clapping in time to the music at that point is not, in my experience, an invariable practice. Now when you admit to clapping in time to the fouettes in Swan Lake Act 3, then you might be asked to hang your head in shame.

[Beryl H]

The audience did clap along with the fouettes at the Bolshoi's Bayadere once but that was to encourage the young dancer who suddenly stepped in for Maria Alexandrova, very special of course and lovely to hear

[Jan McNulty]

I was going to mention the end of Fille as a possible exception, but didn't, since clapping in time to the music at that point is not, in my experience, an invariable practice. Now when you admit to clapping in time to the fouettes in Swan Lake Act 3, then you might be asked to hang your head in shame.

 

 

If you tried to clap in time to Momoko Hiram's fouettes you wouldn't stand a chance she is soooooooo fast!!

 

But I wouldn't anyway, honest!

[SPD444]

Not a fan of clapping during the performance to be honest. At the NT you will get some applause at the interval and, in my experience, the cast take two bows at the end of the performance and that's it. This could be because there are no curtains that can be opened/closed at the performances I have seen. We do seem to have adopted the "American" style of clapping which involves lots of "whooping and hollering" for even average performances; which I find very irritating.  I do confess, however, that I may have been guilty of this after a performance by Alina; for which I do not apologise. I have noticed that even at the RB some dancers do have the skill to drag out applause longer than would be the case by their deep bows to the audience and partner. As for clapping during the performance that's a big NO from me.

[alison]

We do seem to have adopted the "American" style of clapping which involves lots of "whooping and hollering" for even average performances; which I find very irritating.  

 

Me too - at least for the "average" performances.  Personally, I seem to be physically incapable of it

[Jan McNulty]

Me too - at least for the "average" performances.  Personally, I seem to be physically incapable of it

 

 

Me three!

[bridiem]

I find that if I've really loved a performance I seem to find superhuman hand/arm strength; if it's been so-so, the clapping quickly becomes a struggle.

[FLOSS]

Is there anything more pathetic than seeing a dancer who has milked the audience for applause for all it is worth  overstaying his or her welcome and walking off the stage to total silence?

 

Me ? I am all in favour of audiences being undemonstrative during ballet performances and letting rip at the end of the evening.Old style curtain calls, the sort of thing you saw in the seventies, were a production in themselves. The dancers would have the standard curtain calls which as far as the main dancers  were concerned were far more numerous than today.The curtains would finally close the house lights would go up and then the audience would start up regular rythmic hand clapping  accompanied by stamping in the slips and the amphi. The rythm  of the stamping was independent of the clapping. The clapping was  at a steady, regular tempo, but the stamping began very slowly and deliberately and gathered momentum as it progressed, It would reach its peak and stop only to begin again in the same fashion.

 

Stamping is rare today and far more likely to be heard at the opera than the ballet. I am not sure if that is because the ballet audience in that part of the house is less aware of the acoustic properties of the auditorium because they are visitors rather than regulars or because it is now more difficult to stamp effectively. There used to be an angled strip of wood that ran along the front row of the upper slips at foot level which could have made for enthusiastic stamping. This disappeared when the house was refurbished. Of course not every dancer received this treatment,Fonteyn and Nureyev,Sibley and Dowell certainly did, Twenty plus curtain calls were not unknown. Then at some point curtain calls became the rather dull, dutiful, carefully choreographed  display we see today. Interestingly you don't get yelping as a sign of approval at the opera. Could it be that opera audiences are  older and don't seem to include groups of students from American universities who are doing a term at a British campus?

Edited January 5, 2016 by FLOSS

[simonbfisher]

Can I extend this discussion to clapping whilst STANDING UP?! This seems to happen more and more often, and for performances that are honestly not so exceptional. More in the Linbury than the main house, and certainly more in other venues. It really annoys me, because 1) the stander/clapper is often hooting as well, 2) I cannot see the curtain calls unless I stand too, which would force me to join the enemy, 3) the clapping often takes place with arms held above the head, and 4) it frequently seems that the transgressors is trying to show that they are more enthusiastic than their neighbours, that they are more knowledgeable, that they deserve attention, that their ululations and big shoulders outweigh the timid people behind.....

Rant finished. For now, anyway

[Melody]

I remember the first time I saw a Russian performance of Swan Lake and was amazed at all the times the action stopped during pas de deux (and all sorts of other times) so the dancers could stride up to the front of the stage and bow and curtsey and acknowledge all the applause. It made the dance look like a bunch of set pieces instead of one organic whole, and it really didn't help the story line or the atmosphere. Together with the slow music, it must have added half an hour to the running time of the ballet.

 

I was sorry to see that same thing start happening at RB, although fortunately it doesn't seem to break out quite so many times during a ballet.

 

Simon, regarding standing ovations, when we lived in Silicon Valley and had season tickets to San Francisco Ballet, it seemed to be tradition for every premiere of a new ballet by Helgi Tomasson to be greeted with a standing ovation from the audience, and honestly some of his works weren't that brilliant. I just flat refused to stand to applaud some worthy but boring effort, and I remember being given the evil eye by several people standing nearby. So one day I just said, in response to all the evil eyes, "well, it wasn't that good..." (a sentiment with which the SF Chronicle critic agreed in his review the next day). I mean, if you do something like that standardly, what are you going to do when there really is something outstanding? Bungee jump from the balcony?

Edited January 5, 2016 by Melody

[Quintus]

And how about cries of approval; what's the forum-approved form these days?  A clearly enunciated 'brava' or 'bravo' sounds rather mannered, whereas the incoherent bellow is better suited to football.  My son was most amused when I took him to Osipova and Vasiliev's DQ, and a middle aged chap near us was almost apoplectic in his enthusiasm for Natalia, repeatedly roaring 'raaaaaagh!' like Boris Johnson charging a Japanese schoolboy.