When is it time to be realistic?

[Tulip]

I know that if my daughter stays onto the third year at Central she will hopefully obtain a degree. If she is unsuccesful in the ballet world for whatever reason then she will be able to use this degree towards a teaching training qualification, an early years professional status (I am choosing areas in which I am more familiar with), and many other professional fields. My daughter has worked so hard towards her chosen profession, this is more than a dream this is a itch that can't be scratched. a burning desire to do what she feels she needs to do. Fortunately we have been able to fund her towards her journey. Every penny spent on her dancing, has 100% been earned by her, and it has been a pleasure to have been able to give her this opportunity. My daughter is very, very careful about money and understands the cost of everyday living she is not given money easily. I would not however go into debt or put the rest of the family at risk. In my daughters school the children there know realisticaly where their style of dance lies. They definally know if their physique is wrong for ballet, just by observing what the required physical shape is. Because of this knowledge they have gone on to study specificaly more towards jazz etc.

[taximom]

' People have mentioned their DC making friends at associate classes, EYB etc but I've wondered how strong these friendships really are. Does the DC ever see these friends away from these classes, workshops etc?'

 

There is alot that has been said that I fully agree with and I won't repeat it! What I will add, in connection with the above statement, is that at my DD's very first experience of EYB aged 12 she got talking to another young dancer. By extraordinary coincidence I sat by this dancers mother. 9 years on we remain good friends although at other end of the country to each other the girls remained dancing with EYB across the country with mothers sorting each of them out depending who was nearest. Then friend got into Central Associates and my DD into CAT at the place who paid for her to attend her Advanced RAD exam classess at Central so enabling the girls to see each other weekly. They now both live in London - not together, friend with European Ballet having attended London Studio Centre and my DD finishing her dance degree at LCDS. Having a dancing friend away from local problems was wonderful for both of them adn remains so. They regulalrly meet up despite being so busy but it is as if they only saw each other a couple of hours ago when they meet.

 

We said to both of our daughters that we would support their ambitions as far as we could for as long as we could. When they were 18 if they didn't want to pursue dance or music they would have had wonderful experiences that would be beneficial down the line. Our musical duaghter was told that at 14 and taking her grade 8 flute we would no longer remind her to practise. if she wanted it bad enough she would motivate herself. This proved to be the case. Because of her then going to RCM Junior Department at 16 we drove to London from Worcester every week. This meant DD could access the best dancing opportunities and could try the contemporary classess it had been suggested she shoudl consider. That resulted in her being spotted and being where she is today.

 

Some people found it very difficult to understand why we would drive to London every weekend. Our DD's were proving their capabilities, they needed this higher level of training adn we learnt alot about a City we would never have been to otherwise. We have all been educated!

 

The results are undeniable. Older DD, having graduated from Birmingha, Conservatoire 2 years ago will be starting her Masters in Performing (Flute) part time in September at Trinity College of Music London whilst holding down 3 possibly 4 jobs!! DD will graduate in July, has a part time job in London and will hopefully have a dancing job but, as we all know, they are like gold dust howevere she is already eth rehearsal director for an emerging contemporary dance company.

 

Whatever they would have chosen they woudl have delighted us. If they had changed their minds after that training (and money and time), it wouldn't have mattered and no regrets from any of us. Our role as parents is to support out children in their ambitions and to be relaistic along the way with them. As a family we have had wonderful family holidays, often around EYB rehearsals, very rarely in foreign countries. The children never had alot of pocket money understanding how much was paid for misuc and dance lessons, but they never went short. At the age of 16, to help them gain independance, they had the family allowance and began to really understand what money buys!

 

As a family not one of us has ever regreted the decisions we took - excpet that music D would still like to have time to dance, as she had to give dance up when she made a decision that she needed to practise more!!!!

[hfbrew]

But when a family feels that the costs (of all kinds) of the DC pursuing the dream have become too great in the context of that particular family then it is reasonable for the family to tell the DC this without feeling guilty.

Absolutely. Which is why I do feel that families do have to be realistic from day one and I feel that members on this forum are.I know that many people on this forum have quite sensibly been very honest with their offspring about the cost of vocational schools and many have not taken up offers of places because to do so would impact adversely on their families. I have a student who has successfully auditioned for a vocational school three years in a row now in the full knowledge that without funding she can't go. And she is fine with this- she is just gratified that her parents at least let her try and she is happy that even if she never gets off the mds waiting list she was still good enough for that place. But she herself explained to me that with older siblings at university they would have to sell the house to afford vocational ballet school fees- and if she then didn't like it ,SHE would feel guilty.

 

In my DS case the education he received was far superior to what he would have received- as was his quality of life. I was dead against him going but I am so glad that we didn't deny him the chance. However we made it quite clear that he didn't then have to feel obliged to us in any way. Just as parents shouldn't feel guilty if their own personal circumstances prevent their offspring from following a certain path, children should not be made to feel guilty if they no longer wish to pursue ballet/music/sport etc regardless of the time and expense.It works both ways. I have seen too many people unhappy because they followed the path decreed right for them by their parents.

[Mumofballetmaddaughter]

Having spent a small (who am I kidding) fortune on ballet, tap, modern, jazz, singing, drama, swimming, gymnastic and music lessons for 2 daughters and all the other costs associated with these hobbies, I can honestly say that we have no regrets. My husband and I took the view that as long as we could afford them without bankrupting ourselves then we would continue to support our children. We would never have sold or remortgaged the house however to fund vocational school for our daughter who wanted to make a career out of dance, as that would, in our opinion, have been a step too far and would have led to too much pressure on her to succeed in a very precarious profession. We were concerned that it would also cause resentment in our other daughter in later life.

Although my husband and I could have done a great deal ourselves with the money that we spent over the years, we feel that both time and money have been well spent. Both daughters have a strong work ethic, self discipline and have matured into lovely young women. Eldest is a paediatric staff nurse so is a real contrast to her dancer sister. Neither of them had any time to 'fall off the rails' in their teenage years as they were too busy.

I did ask my dancer daughter a couple of years ago if she'd regretted not having what I considered to be a 'normal' teenage life and her reply was that to her, her life had been normal and what she hadn't done, she'd didn't miss. Who knows, in years to come she may well have a different viewpoint but at the moment she has no regrets.

While we will never be repaid in monetary terms, the value of what we have experienced throughout our daughters lives has been priceless.

aileen - regarding your point about extended adolescence, as most who are currently in their early 20s will probably be working until at least 70, there isn't the rush to settle down so quickly. Gone are the days of jobs and security for life, so our youngsters have a very different mindset. Not saying that it's right or wrong but just how it seems to be.

[hfbrew]

Having spent a small (who am I kidding) fortune on ballet, tap, modern, jazz, singing, drama, swimming, gymnastic and music lessons for 2 daughters and all the other costs associated with these hobbies, I can honestly say that we have no regrets. My husband and I took the view that as long as we could afford them without bankrupting ourselves then we would continue to support our children. We would never have sold or remortgaged the house however to fund vocational school for our daughter who wanted to make a career out of dance, as that would, in our opinion, have been a step too far and would have led to too much pressure on her to succeed in a very precarious profession. We were concerned that it would also cause resentment in our other daughter in later life.

Although my husband and I could have done a great deal ourselves with the money that we spent over the years, we feel that both time and money have been well spent. Both daughters have a strong work ethic, self discipline and have matured into lovely young women. Eldest is a paediatric staff nurse so is a real contrast to her dancer sister. Neither of them had any time to 'fall off the rails' in their teenage years as they were too busy.

I did ask my dancer daughter a couple of years ago if she'd regretted not having what I considered to be a 'normal' teenage life and her reply was that to her, her life had been normal and what she hadn't done, she'd didn't miss. Who knows, in years to come she may well have a different viewpoint but at the moment she has no regrets.

While we will never be repaid in monetary terms, the value of what we have experienced throughout our daughters lives has been priceless.

aileen - regarding your point about extended adolescence, as most who are currently in their early 20s will probably be working until at least 70, there isn't the rush to settle down so quickly. Gone are the days of jobs and security for life, so our youngsters have a very different mindset. Not saying that it's right or wrong but just how it seems to be.

Your daughter sounds lovely (actually both of them do) but I suspect many of our DCs would say the same. Afterall what is a "normal" teenage life? For some its endless hard academic slog (in the affluent area where I work) , others its hanging round streets getting drunk,smoking or worse with no career ambitions (where I live) , , again for others its to drift from home to school to parties to shops to hair salons and then school again and then perhaps go to Uni without a clear idea of what they'd really like to do with life.And for some its endless hours on computers like us ballet.co junkies lol- my DB has just jumped up next to me to find out why I have a laptop on my lap and not him....

[Fiz]

We spent a lot of money for my ex DD to do drama. At first she thought she wanted to do ballet, then musical theatre and has finally decided to become an actress. She has done ballet, tap, modern, jazz and street dance, singing and drama since she was tiny. She did her utmost at school and did well there and in all her dance and drama exams. She did not get into a drama school for reasons I won't go into, but continued at university. We will pay for her professional photos and that will be it. She has practised, performed and done exams when she was ill, or it was her birthday and missed fun and parties because it was her dream. What else could we do but support her?

Edited May 5, 2012 by Fiz

[HAIRBELLES]

I have and still am paying a small fortune for my daughters dancing and education.......all I have ever asked for is maximum effort on their part with classess and academic studies......they also know that if they decide it is no longer what they want to do they don't have to carry on ....they are both aware it does cost alot of money and they are very priveledged to be given the opportunity (youngest would not be there without the MDS) to attend their school.

All this aside I have had a great deal of pleasure from all the money spent too!...and have met some lovely people along the way!

 

As many people have already said the cut off point is purely a personal descision......I feel that having spent 5 years at vocational school my daughter should be able to secure a funded place at college .

 

I would not sell or remortgage my house for training at 11 but what if one of my daughters was given the opportunity at 16 to train with say,The Bolshoi then I probably would!

[primrose]

My dd is training at the Bolshoi but I have to say I would never have sold the house to fund it. I have two other children, one who is in university and the other who is disabled. The house is our home and belongs to all of us. I would have sacraficed holidays and tightened our belts, but I would not allow the other two children to suffer for my dds dream.

I would love to have had the opportunities my dd has had, but being from a large family there is no way my parents could have afforded it. Thats the way life is. It does make me sad that money plays a big part in our children being able to dance and I am very aware that there is a great deal of talanted children who just cannot do the things our children have the privaledge to do due to being on low incomes.Unfortunately if finance is a big issue and the rest of the family are suffering because of it, then I would have to say its time to stop.

[Anna C]

Yes, I agree with the house selling part. You have to draw the line somewhere and I'm always mindful of how much pressure that would put on the child in question to suceed, not get injured, or merely not want to dance any more.

 

But in terms of deciding to scrimp and save and as parents, go without luxuries, in order to give your child/ren opportunities - then that is up to individual families, as is the choice of how long to support your children. That's a different issue to selling the home and risking the whole family's security.

 

I always think of my young cousin - an exceptionally handsome young man, with drive and determination in abundance. He wants to act. My Aunt and Uncle have supported him through his degree and then an MA, and now he's starting to get acting jobs which he tops up with modelling work. They say that they can afford to support him and he lives at home, because his earnings aren't steady enough to get a mortgage. They are letting him pursue his dream and if I were them I would do the same.

[tomuchtallent]

I would give up everything for my kids and give them my last penny no matter if they made it or not in whatever they wanted to do,thats just the way i am.They are not spoilt in anyway,but when it comes to training,hobbies and education i would give them the world.I am also lucky to have the time to be involved in their hobbies and homework and all my kids hate it if i cant watch or help them.

[HAIRBELLES]

Primrose I did not mean to cause offence and I didn't intend to start the selling property debate again........my post was more to make a point that I have had lots of enjoyment out of all the money spent too.......All of us are in different positions and as this is where the majority of our savings lie in the equity of our house Iwould consider releasing some of it if a fabulous opportunity arose..........So when I made this remark it was only my personal circumstances I was referring to ........and also a little' tongue in cheek' as I'm sure we will never be in this position.

Edited May 6, 2012 by HAIRBELLES

[primrose]

Oh bless you Haairbelles, I know you wasnt being offensive to me at all and I definately did not take it that way. I was just taking your point about selling the house. As has been said, everybody is different and that is ok.

[taxi4ballet]

We are in the position of not having to worry about making sacrifices.

 

What little we have we spend, and when it's gone, it's gone, and that's that.

[Janice]

My dd is 16 next month she has auditioned for Northern and got a no, Rambert still waiting to hear and Central she got though to the finals but in the end a no. She is now saying she is going to quit dancing because no one wants her, her teacher has told her she would be silly to quit as she has got potential. I don't think dd is giving herself enough credit she was very ill last year and it took six months to get sorted although she did not miss lots of classes she lost lots of weight this must have had an impact on her strength and ability. I can't make her carry on if she does not want to but I think she may regret it and if she got to Central final that must mean they saw some potential? Just needed to get this off my chest to people who understand this whole ballet world.

Also I don't know what she should do for the next two years if she does decide to carry on, how do I make sure what she does is enough of a challenge for her? She has places on a Btec dance course at two colleges I don't think that they will do much ballet though, but some friends of hers have places at a new school Bath Dance College which looks good has some teachers with impressive achievements, but there is no transport for her to get there despite being only an hours drive away. The others are planning on getting a flat and living there but there is no help with that so I think the cost my mean it is not possible for us. She has a place on a CAT scheme but she has not had a training plan done yet. Sorry feeling completely overwhelmed by making the right choices.

[hfbrew]

Well she sounds like she's definitely got potential so my advice is to try again at 18 and get as much dance experience as possible including holiday courses. But her heart has to be really in it so maybe for now persuade her to keep dancing for recreational purposes in the hope that her spark reignites if that makes sense.

 

There are plenty of people (myself included) who got no's at 16 but yesses at 18- and for me personally it was much the best thing.

 

Sorry I can't be more help with the choices re the Btec choices. Can she not continue to also dance with her current teacher?

[Janice]

Yes she can continue with her current dance teacher she does two grade classes and two vocational classes totalling about 4 hrs per week, I' m not sure that this is enough. Also money is very tight right now as it is for many,so more evening classes will be a struggle.

[Anna C]

Is she going to stay at her CAT too? That must add some quality training hours too.

 

If she had no potential, she wouldn't be at a CAT and she wouldn't have got any finals. Some people just need an extra year, or even two. If she is thinking along the lines of contemporary, they sometimes prefer people to have a couple more years of experience (of life as well as dance).

 

Could she stay on at school and start A'Levels whilst continuing to dance, and try again next year?

[Lottie]

Janice and ellen - If she's been unwell and lost strength and got through to Central Final audition then why not think about auditioning again for entry in September 2014 when she'll be 17?

 

I know of at least 2 other girls who are now in Central's 2nd year who began there when they were 17 and had done one year of AS's at school and also ballet classes at home and associate classes once a week. Not everyone is 16 when they start at Central.

[2dancersmum]

I certainly hope your DD does not quit.  To get through to a final audition, the CAT scheme and the various 'yesses' she has had show that she obviously has the potential.  Personally I would echo the reaudition at 17 or 18, when she should have regained the strength and weight lost.  I think Northern, Central, Hammond, ENBS all take dancers at 17 & 18 and if she is leaning towards contemporary I think Northern, LSC etc only take at 18.  A lot of dancers from our area choose 'dance' as opposed to 'ballet' and they all to go places like Laines, Bird, Millenium, Performers etc at 18.  The BTechs as you say do not tend to offer much ballet and certainly it is likely to be a lower level than your DD is at but they do offer training in other dance styles.  To keep her ballet level up DD would need to keep with her local teacher.  Are Senior Asociates at Ballet Cymru a possiblity or would that clash with her CAT still?  What type of course is offered by Bath Dance College?  I ask because when we looked into it last year for my DDs back up plan, I was led to believe that level 3 diplomas are free for 16-18 year olds and that as they are classed as Further Education (not Advanced) housing benefit can be claimed unless the student has savings or income in excess of ?thousand pounds.  I cannot remember the amount but it was over £10k. 

Another point I would say, something that your DD actually said to mine, is that she is very young in her year and that might make all the difference for applying next year.  My DD is the youngest girl on her course and she was specifically told on a open day at another school that they would rather their students were almost 17 or older when starting.  Your DD is dealing with a lot at the moment - dance and school.  The pressures on our year 11s are enormous so I hope she at least gives it until the summer holidays when she can relax and think things through before making any decisions.  Good luck.

[Klaris]

Hi Janice,

 

I can well understand that you must both be feeling rather low right now - but hopefully in a few weeks time things will be starting to look very different. 

 

I think that your dd's CAT scheme is going to be a big part of this. They will be able to help with future planning, sorting out the best way forward for your dd via her Individual Training Plan. This summer is the first time a large cohort of CAT students leave my dd's CAT - I think I'm right in saying that only 2 are 16, the rest are 18 year olds buzzing because they have got into LCDS/Northern/Laban etc. These students are success stories, and are really looking forward to moving forward into an exciting time of training and a potential dance career. They are also able to access degree funding. Some of them may have auditioned at 16, but most didn't even think about it.

 

I know your dd is keen on ballet, but she can still keep that up with her local teacher as well as the CAT scheme. B-tech is a good scheme and there are some here on the forum whose dcs have done this, so they might be able to advise you further on whether it is worthwhile or not.

 

Also, London Senior Ballet takes students up to the age of 18; it is a fantastic associates scheme and the ballet is second to none, but they also do classes in contemporary and pilates too. I know it's another expense - but maybe it is something to think about. My dd did it this year and really benefitted, especially in terms of strength. I think the auditions may be in June and September? 

 

It is so hard when the auditions don't work out - but this is not the end of the line by any means. She can try again at 17, and then at 18 she will have the contemporary schools to throw in the mix too. Adjusting to the next plan will take a bit of time - but I think in the end it can work out very positively. And don't forget about her auditioning for National Youth Dance Company - they have bursaries that are similar to the CAT scheme.

 

Please tell your dd to pm my dd, or facebook her, if she wants to. xxx

[Millie3]

Janice and Ellen - have sent you a pm

[dramascientist]

I agree with all that has been said here, at 16, especially if she has been ill, there is still lots of developement still to come. When I trained the age range was from 16-over 20 because for some they needed to work first to save the money to persue their dream (obviously some of these people were studying musical theatre where there is not so much emphasis on age). Most came from local dance schools not from vocational schools so just because you don't get in at 16 does not mean that its never going to happen. I had a few good friends who went after A'levels and were glad they did. If you are worried about being able to afford more classes has your DD considered buying some of the ballet DVDs that are out there. My daughter and I do Darcey Bussels pilates every morning in the summer holidays to maintain her strength and Darcey also wrote a book with a whole "floor barre" to work through which can be fun and strengthening. If she can maybe get some of her ballet friends to come and work with her or if you have the time, join in yourself too, Ilove the benefits of pilates and after the initial cost of the DVD you haveit forever. Try to encourage her to stick it out for just a bit longer and I'm sure things will improve but if she gives up now she might regret it.

 

Best of luck, she obviously has potential and she might just need a little bit more time to build up her strength.

[Janice]

Thanks for all the messages of support it means a lot. Just wish I could make DD see she has potential.

 

Spanner- School 6th has failed ofsted inspection so not an option. We have checked out other colleges for a levels but nothing really grabbed DD. I guess I just got myself in a bit of a state as I can't provide many evening dance classes right now that I need to make a good choice for college courses hope that make sense.

 

2dancersmum- Bath dance college provides a levels and a level 4 diploma for trinity college so I guess that would count as higher education so no housing benefit and your right she is a younger one definitely not 15 going on 20. There are no dates yet for next years ballet Cymru associates so I don' t know if it will class with the CAT.

 

I had thought about auditioning at 17 but it seems a bit of a waste to abandon a course half way though.

 

Funny though when I said to her about giving up the CAT she was definite that she did not want to, so maybe a little spark there.

 

Klaris-The CATs standard of dance is good but the organisation seems to be not so good as DD started last Sept and still does not have a training plan.

 

I think that there is a bit more to it than just the nos, life seems to be dealing some bad cards and I feel like everything is going wrong at the moment so she probably feels the same.

Thanks again EVERYONE for the support, lots of food for thought here, I just need to get DD to believe in herself.

Janice

[dramascientist]

Janice are there any schools/collages near you who offer the international bacalaureate diploma programme as an alternative to A'levels? I teach in this programme and creativity is celebrated, your DD can gain credit from being part of dance classes and CAT programmes, it is also exceptionally well respected in UK universities, just a thought.

[Moomin]

My only real regret in life is not pursuing a career in ballet. My parents were very academically orientated and there is no way they would have done the running about that I do for my children. They're both still little but I try & give them the opportunity to try things even though it involves a lot of being 'mum's taxi' and I guess we could spend the money on ourselves. I think we all want for our children those things that we didnt have ourselves though. There would be a limit and I certainly wouldn't give up my house, pension.......adult ballet classes! at some stage you have to be realistic and perhaps think of other avenues but I believe the worst regrets are things you didn't do in life. If you're in a position to support their dreams it far better to fail trying than to fail to try

[Kitschqueen_1]

I don't think it is a waste to abandon a course half way through if it is a means to an end for your dd.

She obviously does have potential so can audition again for Central at 17 and 18 as well as other full time dance courses at 18 should she wish.

Good luck for Rambert and even if it is a no this year it doesn't mean it is a no forever. You only have to read other threads on here to hear of dd's who have continued to audition and be successful.

I don't know which CAT scheme your dd attends but at my dd's they offer very robust advice regarding full time training and also a foundation course for which they can audition to study full time for 12 months prior to auditioning for 3 year vocational courses.

There seems to be a lot of posts recently where talented dd's are having major wobbles with self-confidence and I hope your dd can get over her disappointments and appreciate what she has achieved this year, (especially with her ill health), build on this and go forward.

Best wishes to you all and keep positive :-) x