When is it time to be realistic?

[Jellybeans]

I can perhaps agree with ENBS, Elmhurst and Central but I am not sure that not getting RBS finals alone is that much of an indication simply because they alone attract such a huge number of overseas applications.

[Jellybeans]

Aah, seems we have been talking at cross purposes!! I also thought that you meant a students should be getting finals at all of them!!

[Anna C]

Ah, thought I'd check! :-)

[Pas de Quatre]

I will second Primrose in that I too know dancers who gained funded places in Yr 7 and appeared to have a bright future in ballet, who simply bloomed to early and were overtaken by others at 16 and/or in 6th form.

[taxi4ballet]

This is turning out to be a really thought-provoking discussion.

 

Perhaps the time to be realistic is at the very beginning?

 

We all want the best for our children and the sad fact is that however much in the way of sacrifices we make, financial or otherwise, dreams and ambitions can't always be turned into reality.

 

I hope that my dd can happily carry on dancing without worrying about how much we spend, or the sacrifices we make. I would hate it if she thought our love for her depended on whether or not our 'investment' proved to be profitable.

[Jellybeans]

But - and this is a tricky one, was the potential always there in those that ultimately went on to overtake the previous high flyers? the schools, presumably, recruit on potential and many more will have potential at 11 than have fulfilled it by 16. What seems less clear is whether those that did not seem to have potential at 11 can then go on to do well.

[primrose]

I am the parent of a dd who has been dancing from the age of 4 yrs. She is now just turned 17years, so I can safely say that we have been there and done it. Children who didnt show potential before the age of 11, certainly do go on to excell later on. As I have said children grow and develop at different rates.

[aileen]

Regarding, Darcey Bussell, I seem to remember reading somewhere that a teacher's harsh criticism of her after she had taken an exam (was it the teacher referred to earlier?) was actually a turning-point for her and she resolved to work much harder/dedicate herself to classical ballet after that. Returning to an earlier thread, I think that British born students are just not used to the kind of tough criticism (and the parents won't put up with it) that some foreign born students are used to. It's not pleasant but it does toughen up the students and prepare them for the very exacting ADs, repetiteurs etc. that they will encounter in their professional lives.

[tomuchtallent]

Do you think that we should encourage other options along with dance.?My dd loves dance first, but also loves musical theatre,playing the violin and loves learning languages.She is still very young and can already speak 5 languages and i think that the last one would probably secure a good career,but i am really stuck as to which one to encourage the most.If you ask her she says a ballet dancer but if she is not good enough then any of the others.Im just worried as to how long we will have to wait to see if she can make it as a ballet dancer as she is also good at the others things that also need nurturing.

[primrose]

When children first start going to their local dance schools it should be because they enjoy it, not really to be thinking about future careers. These things seem to develop naturally. A lot of children both in and out of vocational schools study music, languages etc. The children must be allowed to be children and should be given opportunities to enjoy other things. I know dancing seems to be very time consuming, but most schools have private tutors who come in to teach singing and musical instruments. Even when children start vocational school at 11, I still think they should be doing it purely because they love it, and not be thinking about a future career in it. That can come later when the student is mature enough to make those decisions.

[balletla]

I don't worry about the return on investment - I worry that if we spend all our money on dance training and it doesn't work out, we won't have anything left to support going in a different direction!

 

Also as far as potential and development, it is definitely a marathon and not a sprint! Have seen so many 'young Darceys' reach the limit of their potential by 13/14 and others who have been slow to develop, come into their own at that age and continue to develop into late teens and beyond.

[aileen]

Yes, but even those regarded as late developers seem to be in companies by 18 or 19. Darcey Bussell was hardly a late developer. She went to White Lodge at 13 and was a principal by 20, I believe. Patricia Zhou, who is said to have started ballet at 13 (I suspect that's when she went to the Vaganova School in Washington) entered the Royal Ballet at 17. There must be limits on how late you can develop. For a start, how and where would you continue training?

[Mumofballetmaddaughter]

I think it's important for children to have hobbies for enjoyment and not as the starting point of a future career which may or may not materialise. Even if a child ticks all the boxes for a future career in dance, they can lose their desire for it. If the heart's not in it, the perfect physique and technique are irrelevant.

[Anna C]

 

 

I think that this depends on how many children that you have and what sacrifices one would have to make to support the other. I could never put all my resources into one child alone as it simply would not be fair. Compromises have to be made.

 

I could only manage to make one, and she took 5 years of treatment! Things would undoubtedly have been different if we had other children to consider but we don't. I feel blessed just to have one. :-)

[Moneypenny]

I absolutely agree that it's about the journey and seeing how things develop .... even though it can be a roller coaster ride of highs and lows, but hey that's life, and I think as parents of a dc you always have to remain realistic and take things one step at a time. When dd took up dance lessons for fun at five, never could we have imagined where it would lead to. However, the decisions we have made have been based very much on how the journey has progressed and what has happened along the way. Each positive step gives you the confidence to push on to the next one. Dd has had plenty of opportunities to get involved in other things over the years, but ballet has always risen to the top to the exclusion of everything else. Who knows what will happen in the future and what difficult decisions lie ahead, but for now it's about the journey and making the most of the opportunities along the way.

[Jellybeans]

 

 

I could only manage to make one, and she took 5 years of treatment! Things would undoubtedly have been different if we had other children to consider but we don't. I feel blessed just to have one. :-)

 

My point was simply that if you do have more than one child then the support offered to one should not be to he detriment of the other/s. In the case of only children then obviously this does not apply!!

[hfbrew]

Would you say that applies to those auditioning at age 11? According to Deborah Bull and 'The Everyday Dancer', to make it, got to be in full time training by 11, 12 at latest I prefer your thoughts as have DD wanting to try again next year after making 3 finals for yr 7 but no funded offer.....we will support her but are very realistic as to her chances but as she's not giving up, who are we to give up on her. Let's hope she proves Deborah Bull wrong!

Well I proved her wrong, Deborah is only a little bit older than me and I can say that at 11 I was still only on grade 2!!! and definately not vocational material- it wasn't even considered. It was only as I got older that the passion for ballet really got hold- I practised daily and read every book on the subject, even the Ballet dictionary.

As mentioned earlier I even failed to get into vocational school at 16 and my teacher strongly suggested University. But I was a stubborn madam.....I am forever ever grateful to my parents who let me and my siblings follow their respective paths. Ive never been rich financially but I am happy in my working life- in fact I don't see it as work...

 

I actually suggest everyone give up if you want to make money, go into accountancy instead!!

 

Joking aside I do think that its important to be realistic from day one, the journey to be a professional dancer is long. hard and expensive with no guarantee of financial security even if you do make it. So yes, follow the dream, enjoy the journey but also keep up with the school work and if possible enjoy other interests too.

[tomuchtallent]

So i guess they should have fun and enjoy in the younger years and then by 16+ if they dont get into any vocational school start to think about dancing for just a hobby.

But saying that i started dancing when i was 16 and at 19 i got into 4 vocational scools!!But as i said in a post before i did lie about my age!! haha

[Balletpointe]

When we took are children to their first ballet class or first exam I did it not expecting them to do any thing else other have fun, make friends and learn new things, as my dd grew her love and passion grew for ballet and dance in general grew. As parents the dance world is a strange world to most of us, we were guided by are dd who knew what she wanted, offered places at vocational school at 11 and 16 but no funding so was lucky to be offered a CAT place at 12, now 19 she is just finishing her BA[Hons] in Dance, Performance and Teaching as well as doing advanced grades at college and dance teaching qualifications, their is more then 1 way to achieve your dream, yes you have to be realistic but by doing ballet my child learnt more than how to point her feet, she learnt respect, confidence and many other skills. At 16 you should have a good idea or at least have by doing the audition process but you should also have a backup plan.

[porthesia]

DD started dancing at around 4 as do many children and it was fun and she enjoyed it and did alright. It wasn't until she was 12 or 13 that she turned round one day and told me she wanted to dance as a career. We knew nothing and were completely unaware of the existence of Associates, vocational schools etc and so we have been playing catch up ever since. Not all children know what they want to do in life.

[Kat09]

Like you Porthesia - we had no idea until the age of 13 that DD had 'potential' and it was suggested that she audition for MAs - we've started the journey and we're enjoying it - the end outcome - who knows - possibilities are endless - and they might not ultimately be in dance and if that is the case, as long as my DD is happy all past expense will have been worth it.

[Fiz]

We had a girl in my daughter's class who was in everything, won everything, etc, etc, but had burned out before she was 13.

[Stirrups36]

Aileen - " I think that British born students are just not used to the kind of tough criticism (and the parents won't put up with it)" - I am afraid that this is not always the case.

 

For some maybe, but not all by any means.

 

As can be seen above, we have evidence from across the spectrum and it is very difficult to generalise. I agree with Kat09, Balletpointe and others when they say lets enjoy the time our children spend dancing - whatever the outcome and whilst being realistic about expense, after all mortgages still need to be paid - I am sure we all invest as much as we can in all our children.

[sophika9899]

When my DD was 11 she could barely do a tendue, had no pelvic alignment and would never had got a second look from any of the major schools/ associate programmes etc. Now two and a half years later of incredible hard work on her part and the excellent training of West London School of dance and later YDA sHe has been accepted as a RB senior associate and is loving her life. However I have told her, gently that if she doesn't get into ANY of the upper schools (and I don't just mean the top 4) she may have to go the A level - university route and think again. I hope with all my heart that she will get into upper school because I know how desperately she wants it but I also don't want her to be a second rate dancer who never gets a decent dancing job.

[rowan]

This is a subject that has plagued me for some time and I don't know the answer. I personally regard my child's ballet training entirely as a hobby and I assume that her chances of being a professional ballet dancer are virtually zero, but then I am of an Eeyore-ish persuasion!

 

Despite the amount of time I spend on this forum, I am actually not involved in my child's ballet training at all; I'm not required as a ballet taxi and "doing ballet" costs virtually nothing (scholarship, and we haven't done paid-for exams or things like EYB). This tends to add to my increasingly relaxed persuasion, which is definitely not that of my child's, that the ballet training is more "hobbyish" and "for fun" because it doesn't impact at all on finances, travel, time and effort on my part, or disrupting the lives of my other children; it is simply something that my child enjoys, works hard at and does after school; what may or may not happen in the future doesn't matter. This relieves a lot of the "pressure" of ballet training on the family. If it had more impact, I would have to weigh up the finances, effort and disruption to work out what was realistic for us as a family. I finance and escort my other children to their hobbies, which definitely won't lead to future careers, and I'm grateful that my dancing child has one that doesn't need that! One thing I regret, though, is giving up an auditioned-for, fully funded place at a music centre because of the desire to do ballet instead - not my choice at all. I felt that music could lead to more options than ballet...

[Gingerbread]

When my DD was 11 she could barely do a tendue, had no pelvic alignment and would never had got a second look from any of the major schools/ associate programmes etc. Now two and a half years later of incredible hard work on her part and the excellent training of West London School of dance and later YDA sHe has been accepted as a RB senior associate and is loving her life. However I have told her, gently that if she doesn't get into ANY of the upper schools (and I don't just mean the top 4) she may have to go the A level - university route and think again. I hope with all my heart that she will get into upper school because I know how desperately she wants it but I also don't want her to be a second rate dancer who never gets a decent dancing job.

but if that so called "second rate dancer" was fulfilled and happy in her life, doing something she loved whilst at the same time benefiting society in some way through what we would call not a "decent dancing job" but through other ways,(e.g helping children, dance therapy and any number of other things) surely that is a wonderful achievement not to mention the manifestation of a well rounded individual? An individual who will also be part of the ballet audiences of tomorrow?

Edited May 5, 2012 by Gingerbread

[taxi4ballet]

If you are doing a job you love, and are paid a reasonable wage, I don't think it really matters how high up the ladder you are.

 

Don't spend your life envying the people above you - be proud of how far you've climbed, and admire the view from there!

[aileen]

Being realistic has several aspects to it:

 

1. Getting into debt. Will the cost of funding the DC place an unbearable strain on the family.

 

2. Family harmony. The huge investment (financially, emotionally and in terms of time) in the DC will almost inevitably have an impact on other family members (particularly other children) which may have long-lasting negative effects on family relationships (remember Noel Streatfeild's Apple Bough, anyone?). When does this investment become an unacceptable risk to family harmony?

 

3. Loss of other opportunities. The huge demands of ballet training probably result in the DC devoting less time to his/her academic studies resulting in poorer GCSEs and A Levels (there are exceptions) If s/he is at vocational school there will generally be fewer choices available as well. The DC has less time to spend with school and local friends and to pursue other interests (this is their childhood, after all, and once it has passed, it has passed). People have mentioned their DC making friends at associate classes, EYB etc but I've wondered how strong these friendships really are. Does the DC ever see these friends away from these classes, workshops etc? I ask because my DD never sees the girls in her local classes outside the classes.

 

4. The adult child. IMO, it is damaging for children to be financially dependent on their parents once they become adults for more than a few years. Becoming financially independent is what makes you a responsible adult. If you are still financially dependent on your parents it is hard to settle down and start your own family. My heart sinks at the current trend for Masters degrees (what use are they?), endless years off, other courses etc all after the child (young adult) has completed a first degree at the age of 21 or 22. Fifty years ago the average 25 year old man would have been working and had a wife and probably a child. Nowadays, the average 25 year old man is likely to be living at home rent-free even if he is working, waited on hand and foot by his doting mother. I'm sorry if this sounds like a rant but I don't think that this extended adolescence is doing are children or our society much good. Whose going to pay for everything if our children are not getting jobs and paying taxes until they are nearly 30?!

[Anjuli_Bai]

Each family makes their own choices.

[Anna C]

You put that perfectly Anjuli. :-)

 

Horses for courses, was what I was about to say. Each family makes the choices they want to, to suit themselves and what they think is best for their child(ren). I suspect my brother thinks we spend too much on my dd, whereas in many ways I don't think he's invested enough time and money into his daughters. But that's his choice! His family, his choice.

 

It took years of treatment for us to have our dd, and we couldn't have any more. I love being able to give her every opportunity we can, even if it means me going without for a few years. But that's our choice! I wouldn't knock anyone for doing things differently. I certainly don't expect payback from my dd. Ever. She owes me nothing. She's not spoilt in the least; she never demands anything and she knows there are limits to what we can afford.

 

Incidentally, she's fortunate in that she's managing to give her all to her studies AND ballet at the moment because she's bright and driven. I keep an eye on her though. And she has several friends who she's kept in touch with from EYB, Associates and holiday courses. :-)

 

There's never only one way to live. Each to their own.

[rowan]

To be honest, it's sometimes through dreams, hobbies and interests that careers can be made, even if they're not the ones you originally planned on. I know lots of people who have turned what may be a niche interest into a job for themselves, usually unrelated to what, if any, degree they did. And lucky are the people who can make their love of something their work, because then they won't need to "work" again! You could argue that young people who go to university to study something like Classics or Philosophy are not being "realistic" and they might end up doing something unrelated to those subjects, but the study of them has still enriched their lives. People's lives are full of twists and turns and the path is not mapped out.

[aileen]

Rowan, rightly or wrongly, a university degree is now an entry level qualification for very many jobs; it doesn't usually matter what it's in. It's now very difficult to start at the bottom of an organisation and work your way to the top as people used to be able to do if they were bright and hard-working. Very many jobs are not open to non-graduates any more. Ironically, the value of a degree is ever more questionable. I agree that each family has to make its own decision, but I just wanted to provide an alternative to the (not surprisingly) prevailing view on this forum that everything possible must be done to enable a DC to pursue his/her dream for as long as s/he wants. I certainly don't think that a family should regard the time, money etc spent on dancing training as an investment. It's something that should be done for its own sake, without expectation of a return. But when a family feels that the costs (of all kinds) of the DC pursuing the dream have become too great in the context of that particular family then it is reasonable for the family to tell the DC this without feeling guilty.

[hfbrew]

but if that so called "second rate dancer" was fulfilled and happy in her life, doing something she loved whilst at the same time benefiting society in some way through what we would call not a "decent dancing job" but through other ways,(e.g helping children, dance therapy and any number of other things) surely that is a wonderful achievement not to mention the manifestation of a well rounded individual? An individual who will also be part of the ballet audiences of tomorrow?

Any dancer who is happy in their work,having successfully got work in this day and age, is not a second rate dancer! And the reality unfortunately is that even those in recognised top companies are not earning satisfactory wages- you really do have to be born to dance to put up with it. And I would argue that the dancers in smaller travelling companies are extraordinary- no hiding behind a large corps on a bad night!