Tough times at vocational school

[balletla]

Women at the top of organisations I agree are generally charming, charismatic and ruthless ! Rebecca Brooks springs to mind ! But I would not describe them as psychopaths !! Or lacking in empathy ! Without these social skills they would not have achieved their position ! Although Margaret Thatcher perhaps comes close ! Lol !

There are numerous studies which show that people at the top of organisations are more likely to be psychopaths (or 'sociopaths' as they are known, which is a high-functioning psychopath). See link to see the top professions for psychopaths. They don't have empathy but are good at faking it.

 

http://www.spring.org.uk/2013/07/which-professions-have-the-most-psychopaths.php

[aileen]

It's really chilling how young these bullies are and how seamlessly they can switch to the role of apparent victim. I wonder what happens to these young girls when they grow up - they turn into their mothers, I suppose. I do think that teachers are often reluctant to tackle parents of bullies as the parents, mothers particularly, are often quite intimidating people who are quite powerful figures in the school community (eg on the PTA committee, friendly with the head or deputy head etc and surrounded by a large group of acolytes) and who are likely to complain and make a huge fuss. I personally feel that it would be better if there were a bit more professional distance between teachers and parents. IMO, whilst it apparently benefits the school, there are real downsides to parents coming into schools to 'help' on a regular basis (I don't think that this happened when I was at school) as decisions about who is selected for special trips can look biased when the children of the parents who help are chosen and it is harder to discuss problems in a professional way. I disapprove of teachers becoming too friendly with parents as this is supposed to be a professional relationship. I must say that I have rather discouraged my DD from having a best friend as it can cause a lot of problems if one friend wants to 'branch out' and possessiveness can spill over into really unpleasant behaviour.

[drdance]

This is a really interesting thread. I have huge sympathies for anyone who is bullied, especially 'mumonthrrun's DD. As someone who finds psychology interesting, I'm really intruiged by the personality type associations. I wonder if there are people who bullies 'prey' on easily? I have always struggled with being bullied, in primary school, at brownies, at guides, at secondary school and even now at work, I am trying to deal with a colleague who makes work quite unhappy for me at times.

 

She is an alpha female type. The life and soul of the party, very funny, a successful teacher, the kids love her because of her energy and fun in all her lessons, she works hard and plays hard and I admired her a lot until recently. Most of the time she is actually quite upfront in her cruel manner, and says it all with a laugh and hides it behind the term 'banter', and if I'm up to it, I can give it straight back and it's all ok. (odd though that somehow being rude or cruel to other people is ok if it's done with a smile and a laugh and it's called banter!). Recently she has been more passive-aggressive, making snide comments in conversation with others that clearly relate to me, within my earshot. When I mention it to my immediate line manager, the response is always "oh don't take it personally, it's just her way, it's only banter, she doesn't realise how hurtful it is, she lacks empathy' etc etc. I know now that she is a bully and for all her good qualities, I cannot wait to see the back of her. She's leaving to take up a more managerial post(!) in another school.

 

I wasn't going to post about it but as the discussion has turned towards the nature of these types of people it really struck a chord with my present situation...

[straceydor]

I believe there is a type of person who is more bullied than others. People who lack confidence are easy targets and those who words do not come easy to them.  There are other traits

[All4dancers]

Dr Dance, I'm afraid the behaviour you describe seems to be very common in school staff rooms and I myself have also been a victim of it a number of times.  I think it's probably because many teachers have not really been in the 'real world', coming straight from school, to uni, then school again, so haven't really had the chance to learn how to behave appropriately.  The only up side is, I can try to teach my dd how not to behave herself and also how to handle situations where she feels that she is being targeted.

[aileen]

drdance, this woman is a narcissist but you have seen through her. I really don't know how to 'take on' such a person as, fortunately, I've not had to work with one. Is whispering in her ear a comment that everyone knows what she is like and loathes her worthwhile? The biggest problem at school is worrying about fitting in and trying too hard to please children who don't really like you. I tell my DD that if a friend is unpleasant to her more than once or twice she should drop her and find another friend. So far, fingers crossed, she has not had many problems but she once came back very upset after a school (residential) trip. A good friend had been unpleasant to her. I told her that she might need to reassess this friendship but, fortunately, the girl subsequently apologised for her behaviour off her own bat and the friendship resumed. I admired the girl for admitting that she had been mean; few children seem to apologise when they have been in the wrong and make excuses for their behaviour of fail to acknowledge it at all.

[aileen]

drdance, and your line manager is not doing her job properly; she is being very weak. Cruel comments delivered with a smile are not banter. If this women is unaware (which I very much doubt) how hurtful her comments are then she needs to be told, in blunt terms, so that she understands that her behaviour is not acceptable. The chances are that she has got to the age she is behaving as she does because nobody has tackled her on her behaviour and she's not likely to change her ways unless someone takes a tough line with her.

[Legseleven]

You are right Aileen - this kind of behaviour is often brushed off by the bully protesting that 'I speak as I find' and 'can't you take a joke?' It's the next step on from those people who preface comments with 'I'm not being rude, but...' - then go on to be extremely rude yet feel they have somehow negated the rudeness by their statement.

 

Drdance, perhaps you could ask her - smilingly - next time she makes one of her nasty comments whether she intended to be rude/nasty/spiteful or whether she was somehow unaware of how bad her behaviour is? If you get the response 'it's only banter, can't you take a joke?', you could - still smilingly - say that you enjoy a joke as much as she does but that she wasn't intending to joke and that in any event, as she is aware, her comments weren't in the least funny. Do keep smiling and as polite as I'm sure you are throughout, as I have found that it's very disarming to those who hide behind this equally smiling nastiness

 

As you can probably tell I have dealt with several of these delightful manipulative bullies at work and this method always works for me. I think it's effective because you are playing them at their own game (but better) and you stay outwardly calm and smiling whilst telling them exactly what you think of their nasty bullying behaviour, which always irritates a bully because they want to see that they have upset you. It also means that you can't be criticized by the bully playing the victim (another very common trick I have found - as has DD from being 9 years old....)

[Thecatsmother]

For those interested. Daniel Goleman, who writes a lot on emotional intelligence, also writes about organisational dynamics. If you follow him on 'linked in' he had some interesting posts on managerial and organisational dynamics. I am sure these can be accessed elsewhere but this is just where I have read them.

[Melody]

I've read about studies showing that while some bullies in school are just nasty manipulative little so-and-so's, others are actually society's future leaders starting to develop their leadership skills. They're just being rather crude and unsubtle about it because they haven't learned the skills yet.

 

Which is all very well, but the victims are still victims. I know groups of individuals do tend to shake down into hierarchies and cliques and whatnot, but teachers ought to be aware of the different types of bullying and be ready to do something about it, especially in cases where it's deliberate and cruel even if not overt. Sometimes it's much easier to blame the victim (she's far too sensitive, she needs to learn how to handle aggressive people or she'll never succeed as an adult, etc), especially when the bully's parents are cut from the same cloth and are nightmares to deal with.

 

It's particularly difficult in a setting like a vocational ballet school because the kids are away from home, the whole environment is intensely competitive already, and the focus is much narrower than in a regular school so people's vulnerabilities are more exposed. But for the same reasons, the staff should be particularly aware of the possibility that it's going on. There may be a problem in cases like one mentioned above, where the bully isn't one of the less talented kids acting out her jealousy of the more talented ones, but is actually one of the most talented students. Then there must be a temptation on the part of the teachers to overlook the problem because they don't want to lose their little star. But still, there have to be things that well trained staff can do to put a stop to it or at least minimize the effects.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Melody

[drdance]

Some food for thought here. The whole discussion has made me wonder though, can bullying ever be stopped? or perhaps children, teenagers and adults should be taught more effective ways of dealing with bullying personalities?

[Legseleven]

I don't think bullying can be stopped, no. I absolutely agree, Drdance, that the best way is to teach and/or develop strategies to deal with bullies - different strategies for different types of bullies - and encourage victims to practice their responses to bullies to help them feel confident in dealing with the behaviour as it happens.

[BankruptMum]

Agree Dr Dance, bullying is only successful because bullies are supported, it can easily be stopped if people find confidence to stand up for their own beliefs rather than bring subservient to others.

[akh]

I've read about studies showing that while some bullies in school are just nasty manipulative little so-and-so's, others are actually society's future leaders starting to develop their leadership skills. They're just being rather crude and unsubtle about it because they haven't learned the skills yet.

 

Which is all very well, but the victims are still victims. I know groups of individuals do tend to shake down into hierarchies and cliques and whatnot, but teachers ought to be aware of the different types of bullying and be ready to do something about it, especially in cases where it's deliberate and cruel even if not overt. Sometimes it's much easier to blame the victim (she's far too sensitive, she needs to learn how to handle aggressive people or she'll never succeed as an adult, etc), especially when the bully's parents are cut from the same cloth and are nightmares to deal with.

 

It's particularly difficult in a setting like a vocational ballet school because the kids are away from home, the whole environment is intensely competitive already, and the focus is much narrower than in a regular school so people's vulnerabilities are more exposed. But for the same reasons, the staff should be particularly aware of the possibility that it's going on. There may be a problem in cases like one mentioned above, where the bully isn't one of the less talented kids acting out her jealousy of the more talented ones, but is actually one of the most talented students. Then there must be a temptation on the part of the teachers to overlook the problem because they don't want to lose their little star. But still, there have to be things that well trained staff can do to put a stop to it or at least minimize the effects.

I was somewhat appalled  many years ago when in a similar situation with a child at vocational school to be told by one of the house staff " never mind it will be somebody else's turn next week". Fortunately there was an older pupil that helped greatly!.

[Anjuli_Bai]

I don't think bullying will ever be stopped.  I think it is nature's way of setting up a societal heirarchy.  Nature is interested in one thing - procreation. In order for that to happen one must win the battle for space, resources and defense.  Nature doesn't really care how we feel about  it.  Human society as presently constituted is an artificial construct.

 

When I've encountered someone who tries to tell me that it's just banter and I don't have a sense of humor, etc., etc., - I tell them:  "Your attempt at humor is not up to your potential - I'm sure you could do better."

 

Fortunately, as you've probably gathered - I'm not a shy person.  When I don't engage a bully it's because I just don't want to waste time and energy.  However, if pushed - I will engage.   The bully  is usually caught by surprise and bullies don't like surprises.

[Lifeafterballet]

There are numerous studies which show that people at the top of organisations are more likely to be psychopaths (or 'sociopaths' as they are known, which is a high-functioning psychopath). See link to see the top professions for psychopaths. They don't have empathy but are good at faking it.

 

http://www.spring.org.uk/2013/07/which-professions-have-the-most-psychopaths.php

Interesting blog ! But although it lists the professions more likely to have psychopaths in, it goes on to say that anyone with these personality traits is probably not capable of achieving that amount of success. My husband and I are chuckling that we are in the least likely list ! Some of my fellow professionals are a bit suspect though ! Lol !

Edited June 28, 2014 by cotes du rhone !

[grumpybearzuk]

Reading this makes me worry as my dd is very shy and doesn't interact well but has shocked me by wanting to do dance and is also a associate at Elmhurst . It has given her confidence but she has never been part of the gang in the class , I think she did make some friends at Easter but has lost the confidence again with them. She wants to audition for full time training for year 7 at elmhurst but I am really worried how she will cope there full time and she might get bullied with her being very shy . How do others who are shy like my dd handle things?

[taxi4ballet]

I can thoroughly recommend a brilliant book called "Don't Pick On Me - how to handle bullying" by Rosemary Stones.

 

There is even a section on bullying at boarding school, which might prove useful to folks on this forum.

[Lema]

I have the same worry grumpybearzuk

[BankruptMum]

I'm not sure why people feel it's a competitive environment, my DD's experience certainly didn't demonstrate this in lower school. If it had been competitive then the bullies wouldn't have had an opportunity to develop their existence. Parts were often given to people who fitted the costume or those which suited the part (very realistic but not competitive); exam results were never read out but secretly told to students which allowed some to over inflate their marks to their peers. It isn't competitive which IMO is why the hardworking, dedicated young dancers dont always shine.

[lisadebs]

Hi grumpybearzuk, try not to worry too much. It may seem reading through this thread that bullying is a common occurrence at vocational school and I know it does happen, but its not something we have experienced.

 

We have a dd who is naturally quieter and more reserved than some and we certainly never expected her to be boarding from such a young age, but she has coped very well. Quieter children can sometimes turn out to be more resilient than those who are always at the centre of the social groups   

[aileen]

I don't think that being shy necessarily makes you a target for bullies. Children are bullied for all sorts of reasons. However, bullies do seem to pick up on fearfulness and uncertainty and that is why, sadly, some children are bullied in several different setting over several years. Shy children do not necessarily lack confidence. My daughter is shy but, to date, she has never been bullied. However, she is not at boarding school. It's always harder for children who are not part of the gang but as long as they have a few good friends they should be fine.

[Melody]

Some food for thought here. The whole discussion has made me wonder though, can bullying ever be stopped? or perhaps children, teenagers and adults should be taught more effective ways of dealing with bullying personalities?

 

I think it's more realistic to try and manage it rather than stop it. One of the best ways to deal with bullying is for the victim to not be affected by it, because then it stops being a useful tactic. So in some ways, helping the victim (without blaming the victim) may be more effective than punishing the bully. Some bullies act by gathering a support group round them and going after individuals without a similar support group. I know in larger schools there may be ways to break up the bully's clique, but in a small vocational school that might not be possible. At least the victim can be encouraged to also make some friends who look out for each other.

[2dancersmum]

with children I think the child bully always has their little clique of followers - and sometimes the followers are not really aware of most of the bullying going on.   That was certainly the case for my DD as the nastiest comments were made out of ear shot so that even to her own clique she appeared the friendly clever popular girl.  The child who bullies seems to do so because of their own insecurities, fears and jealousy.  I don't think a child target is necessarily shy or lacking in confidence - they just get better marks, have nicer hair, get invited to a party, win a race at sports day - whatever it is that they happen to have/do that the bully envies.

 

I think there are various ways of dealing with bullying and its usually a combination of things and consistency that work.  Please note I am talking children here because not all child bullies grow up to be adult bullies.  Punishing the bully is not one of the ways.  For the victim it is about making friends, not showing they are affected by it or sometimes by speaking up for themselves but in a calm manner with a smile on their face.  And it is about building up their confidence through the support of family, friends and teachers.  Schools can obviously do assemblies and talks on the nature of bullying but they can also shake up relationships within the classroom by changing seating around, making children work with different people and in different group so that it is more difficult for cliques to form.  DD went to a small village school so it is not just the larger schools that can do this.

 

DD had no more problems at school.  The bully was not instantly 'cured' - I know she continued with younger years at the school and at the next school if her name was mentioned she was either cited as 'wonderful,so nice' or 'horrible, mean bully' but by year 9 & 10, she did become more aware of her negative character traits.  For her it was certainly a case of maturity and self esteem and she grew out of it.

[Lisa O`Brien]

My sister [ 9 years older than me] was bullied by one particular girl at her secondary school . She made her life a misery. Susan ,my sister was very shy,quiet,lacking in confidence,etc.This particular girl picked up on this in the first year. She told Susan where to sit,who she could speak to,my sister had to help her out with homework. I am talking about many years ago now,as Susan is 54.From what I can remember there was no major anti bullying awareness going on in the 1970`s in UK schools. Unless it was really,really extreme,I think you just got on with it. Things finally came to a head in the final year of secondary school.They were mostly all going to continue on at a local further education college to take `A` levels [my sister wanted to be a nurse for a while]. This bully turned round to my sister and said to her ,"And you`re going to take exactly what subjects at college I decide you can take". At this point,five years of pent-up emotions burst forth in my sister,and she lunged at this girl,who must have been six or seven inches taller than Susan. Susan pinned the bully up against the wall and just "lost it". It took two members of staff to pull Susan off her. Susan was screaming and sobbing all at the same time, but she never got into any trouble. Even to this day,she shudders at what that girl put her through. Susan doesn`t have a computer and has no idea about the internet at all. [i keep trying to persuade her and her husband of all they are missing out on,but to no avail]. Anyway,I am on Friends Reunited and I ,quite innocently,put Susan`s details up on the website along with the name of her former secondary school. I told Susan and she freaked out, and asked me to remove her details. I apologised and said it was wrong of me to do so without her permission first,but that I thought she might enjoy getting in touch with old school friends. So her details were removed. But not before,less than 48 hours after it going up, this former bully left a message on the page. Nobody else had. Now it could be that this woman just wanted to get in touch to make amends,but if Susan had known she would have been horrified. There was simply too much water under the bridge and it affected my sister for many,many years afterwards. What i`m trying to say is,even when the bully is a child, and that bully may grow out of it and become a decent kind adult,it doesn`t always follow through that the person being bullied will be able to just put it behind them quite so easily.

[Jan McNulty]

Very true TQ.  Some years ago I was telling a work colleague about a young girl I knew who  was being bullied at school and my colleague got very upset.  It turns out she had been very badly bullied at school and 30-odd years later she was still affected by her experiences.

 

I think that the positive side of this thread is the vast amount of practical advice that members have given.

[Fiz]

Both my daughter and I have had people who bullied us at school later apologise to us. The woman that apologised to me was only one amongst many who did that to me. My mother did not work and we were not allowed to roam all over the estate all day and all night. The girl that bullied my daughter was one of a group of girls that made my daughter's last school years a misery and were responsible for her poor A level results. She told the girl it didn't matter and to forget it. I disagree. Her A level results were not good enough for her to go to a good university and she dropped out of the one she did go to. She is working at an entry level hospital job even though she has an IQ of 144. I can't forget what this girl and her companions did to my daughter and if she had spoken to me, I would not have been as generous as my daughter was.

[aileen]

2dancersmum, your view that child bullies should not be punished is interesting, and I don't agree with it. However, I am aware that some schools adopt more of a mediation type approach, which I feel might be appropriate for very young or young children for minor cases of bullying. However, it is not IMO appropriate for secondary school age children, who understand full well what bullying is, or for persistent bullying or bullying involving violence or threats of violence. Persistent bullying should be a ground for expulsion and bullying involving violence is an criminal assault and should be reported to the police. Bullying can have long term effects on the victim and we hear of children and teenagers committing suicide with depressing regularity. Personally, I don't believe that vicious bullies turn into lovely adults. I think that they have a serious character flaw which persists into adulthood and remain at heart people who are low on empathy, self-seeking and unpleasant.

[2dancersmum]

Aileen - I was talking about child bullies and by that I did mean the younger age range as that is when my DD experienced the bullying and the threats of violence (though no actual physical harm was ever done to her).  As I said in my previous post my DD was only 5 when it started and she had problems on and off for 3 or 4 years.  The effects on her confidence for social situations lasted for many years - and especially if any girl from that primary school class is present still to this day.  The problem with bullying with children for a school taking action is catching the bully in the act - as otherwise it is just one child's word against the other.  DD's school gave us great support and their methods worked.

I totally agree that for secondary age children - and especially where there is violence or threats of it - a different approach is needed.  A teenage bully definitely knows what they are doing and their little clique are also likely to know and support their leader in the bullying.  I too doubt that they turn into lovely adults.

[drdance]

I think perhaps the comment about not necessarily punishing bullies wasn't that they shouldn't be dealt with, but that if bullying is ONLY dealt with by punishing the bully, the chances are that there will be repercussions for the 'victim' and the whole thing is likely to get worse. I think what would've helped me as a teenager was to be told that bullying happens to lots of people and that it's something that will probably happen again and again, but more importantly, that it wasn't because I was geeky, or weird, or ugly, or any of those things. Advice like "ignore them, they're looking for a reaction, try to show them you're not bothered" didn't help (no matter how hard you try, if it bothers you, they'll be able to tell). And it didn't stop me being affected by it.

 

I think if I'd had help somehow to ensure I genuinely wasn't bothered by it, I would've been able to show the bullies that it didn't have an effect, so it may have put a stop to it anyway, but I also would've been more able to cope with it, and any future incidences / dealings with difficult personalities. I think this is perhaps the best way of dealing with the psychological kind of bullying. 

 

Violent or threatening bullying, or harassment, should be shared with teaching or pastoral staff if they are unaware of it, as I agree that these issues need dealing with in a different way.

[Anon2]

Reading this thread it would be easy to think that bullying is out of hand at vocational schools. It is easy to forget that these dc mostly 'leave home' at 11, they come from local dance schools/small primaries where a fuss will have been made about their success in getting a place at ballet school and they will be made to feel very special with lots of extra attention, becoming top dog if they weren't already. They start at vocational school and quickly discover they are nothing special - everyone else in the year is in the same situation. Some will try to carry on with wanting to be top dog and will learn to manipulate their peers. Some just need a gentle hand to get them back on the correct path, for some a cattle prod won't work.

 

House parents have a huge role in managing this behaviour and as in all roles of life we have discovered they vary greatly in their abilities - some quickly get a measure of the their wards, others seem to lack the common sense they were born with. Regardless I wouldn't want their job, often being one of two HP being responsible for a group of 20 - 30 dc growing up together, going through puberty and by the very nature of adolescence trying to push the limits. It is easy to see in these situations how they miss some of the more negative behaviour and if you are the parent of a child that is suffering at the hand of others it does need to be brought to their attention, not just for your own dc sake but for others too. Sometimes other pupils will go to see a HP to bring to their attention some bullying they have witnessed. If HP don't act, or give the usual platitudes of 'she needs to toughen up' etc make them aware of the schools policies and keep a record of everything, be prepared to take it higher if necessary - the school management can be unaware and horrified to discover what is happening within their school. It can be an eye opener for them if the pastoral team have been telling them everything is wonderful. 

 

My dd is quiet, reserved and doesn't like to push herself forward. She has suffered bullying by two different girls, one who managed to appear to turn her friends against her but once the HP started dealing with the incident it became apparent that the other girls were also so scared of the bully they would do anything she asked to save their own backs. Once the situation was managed the bully lost her little team and they had the strength to stand up to her, she lost her power. As dd admits voc school has been hard, there have been so many times when she has been on the phone crying (I have got off the phone to have a sob) and we have been so close to throw in the towel on many occasions but she is pleased she has stuck it out. She says looking back the good times outweigh the bad.

 

I think for all the children it is difficult to grow up in a situation where you are never alone - except the shower or toilet. They can't slam their bedroom door and storm about to let out their pent up feelings - at least one other person is always in the room too. Nothing more irritating than someone asking what is wrong when you have no idea yourself. Do wonder if the unbalanced ratio between the sexes at most vocational schools doesn't really help either, boys as they get older can help to just balance the group.

 

Back to the original post. A couple of girls in her class are doing this a lot at the moment - not just to her but to others in the class too. I queried why the teacher doesn't say something, after all she is surrounded by mirrors and can see what is happening behind her. My dd thinks it is because if the teacher turns around to say something she is giving these girls exactly what they want - attention. Her priority at that moment is the other child. 

 

And on the note of adult bullying in the work place - a friend who had a very successful MT career suffered at the hand of one particular other women, constant put downs, critisms etc. They went through college together and then worked together for a year and friend hated all back stage time and was relieved when her contract finished. She was distraught to find herself a year of so later not only working with this person again but sharing a dressing room. A few days in the behaviour was destroying her. One day she had the strength when the bully was in mid flow to ask her to 'hold on a minute and I will give you my full attention', she rummaged through her bag, produced her mobile, started filming and asked the bully to start again. When the bully asked her what she thought she was doing she pointed out to her she 'wanted her to hear and see herself, everything she was saying was so ridiculous she couldn't have any idea what she was saying'. The bullying cast member was furious but it did make her see sense, possibly the thought of ending up showing her true colours in public. Took a lot of courage for my friend to do this but she was at the end of her tether.

[straceydor]

can I have a love post instead of a like for Jane

[LovetoDance2003]

Most definitely!! Great post Jane!