Are we training too many dancers?

[Pas de Quatre]

Sometimes there seems to be a perception that if you aren't quite good enough for pure classical ballet, then you will easily be able to change to Contemporary or Jazz (West End, Cruise ships etc).  The reality is that the standard is incredibly high in these fields too and there are just as many talented dancers competing for the schools and then the jobs.  Yes, strong classical training is valued so this training is never wasted, but much more has to be added.

[taxi4ballet]

That sounds exhausting, Taxi.

Yes, she said you had to have an inexhaustible supply of energy!

 

This reminds me actually, of the news when the cruise ship Costa Concordia sank, that it was the British dancers among the crew who were among the most tireless in assisting in the rescue of the stricken passengers, and were highly praised for their efforts.

[2dancersmum]

The standard for cruise ships is very high - they put on full length musicals and other shows.  recently they have been auditioning for Mamma Mia, Cats, Saturday Night Fever amongst other.  Hundreds attend each audition and the auditions are held all over the world - so multiple auditions for the same show/ship.

Disney - they have various roles - you can get a job at Disney as a performer without much dance but this would be as a character on the parade, rather than a performer and more likely a short term contract.

[dancemad]

Sometimes there seems to be a perception that if you aren't quite good enough for pure classical ballet, then you will easily be able to change to Contemporary or Jazz (West End, Cruise ships etc). The reality is that the standard is incredibly high in these fields too and there are just as many talented dancers competing for the schools and then the jobs. Yes, strong classical training is valued so this training is never wasted, but much more has to be added.

So true PdeQ and I think it is often thought it is easy for a classically trained dancer to 'just cross over'. I know 3 students from one of the so regarded top ballet schools who have been to two cruise auditions this month. All of them were eliminated after the first round.

Hundreds & hundreds of dancers attend these open call auditions which often last all day and result in a handful of dancers being hired.

A little off piste, but not all of the cruise ships require dancers to do duties.

Edited June 18, 2014 by dancemad

[aileen]

The other thing that should be mentioned in relation to classical jobs in ballet companies is that, apparently, the companies are not always looking for potential principals, at least not in large companies; they are looking for dancers who will be good in the corps and those dancers and potential principals may be different. Having said that, I don't suppose that that principle applies to smaller companies. Take Northern Ballet, for instance. From my limited viewing of them and from what I have read about them, it seems to me that what they look for is very versatile dancers with excellent acting skills who are happy to dance in the corps one night and dance a soloist or lead role the following night; they therefore won't want dancers who are too precious, however talented they are, and they will want team players who are able to stand the rigours of a very extensive touring programme and generally muck in cheerfully. The RB, on the other hand, with its size, more rigid company structure and very limited touring, does not have these requirements.

[invisiblecircus]

Well for just Ballet Id say Royal Ballet School, English National Ballet School, Elmhurst (obviously they also have contemporary etc too. ) Also Ballet West. And Central.

 

For Ballet but also excellent all round training, Tring and Hammond . Have heard good things about Northern Ballet School too but have never had a pupil there.

 

Other places (not specialising in Ballet) are Rambert, Laines, Bird, Millenium, Urdang and Italia Conti.

 

I am sure others will add to the list and I am talking post 16 here.

 

As we've seen in recent threads, quite difficult and controversial to rank schools but can I ask about London Studio Centre for classical ballet?  I've noticed it has been barely mentioned in other threads where posters have said which schools their dc's are auditioning for classical ballet Sixth form but i understand that they have a classical ballet stream.

 

In my day (we're talking 10 years ago ;-) ) it was considered good I think, but now I hear of more people going for Ballet West and, even more recently, BTUK.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Applicants at London Studio Centre have to becat least 18 years old with two A levels or equivalent which is why I don't think it is discussed so much on this forum where lots of members dc are looking at applying at age 16.

[invisiblecircus]

Applicants at London Studio Centre have to becat least 18 years old with two A levels or equivalent which is why I don't think it is discussed so much on this forum where lots of members dc are looking at applying at age 16.

 

Ah, that's changed then. They used to accept 16 year olds onto the diploma course.

 

There have been a few posts lately enquiring whether certain schools accept 18 year olds so maybe this would be a good school for them to consider. Is it still considered one of the top schools for classical ballet?

[taxi4ballet]

I was wondering whether anyone knows how many funded full-time places there are in total for each year group for 11-16 at RBS, Elmhurst, Hammond and Tring?

 

The last two only have a certain number of MDS awards available each year for ballet students, with the remainder of their intake being either on MT courses or paying full fees, so I've no idea how many are likely to be funded places.

[aileen]

Well, Senri Kou, a junior soloist at English National Ballet, trained at London Studio Centre but, as she joined the company in 2005 and danced with Peter Schaufuss Company before that, it must have been at least ten years ago. The best guide to the likelihood of employment as a classical dancer, or as a dancer in any kind of company, is the list of graduate destinations for the last, say, three years. What happened ten years ago is not really relevant. It's depressing that up to and including last year not a single girl has got into ENB from ENBS since 2008 as far as I am aware, and many of the recent contracts have gone to graduates of the RBS. It's the same with the other UK companies: most of the contracts go to RBS graduates which leaves very little room for graduates of the other schools.

[rowan]

I've re-read this interesting thread a couple of times, and I wonder if the question should be...

 

1 - are we training too many girls?

2 - is that training good enough?

[HAIRBELLES]

I was wondering whether anyone knows how many funded full-time places there are in total for each year group for 11-16 at RBS, Elmhurst, Hammond and Tring?

 

The last two only have a certain number of MDS awards available each year for ballet students, with the remainder of their intake being either on MT courses or paying full fees, so I've no idea how many are likely to be funded places.

At Hammond the number of awards varies each year . It is dependant on the number of awards there are in the leaving yr11 .

When my elder dd auditioned there were 13 , when her sister auditioned there were 15 , I believe this year there were only 8 .

It isn't many considering children are auditioning up to yr 10 entry .

Everyone at RBS has an award if they qualify for it .

[Picturesinthefirelight]

There were a lot less awards available for the 2014 sept intake than last year I believe though I don't have the figures for last year for years 8-10 anecdotally I can work out that approx 7 have an MDS in the current year 7.

[taxi4ballet]

At Hammond the number of awards varies each year . It is dependant on the number of awards there are in the leaving yr11 .

When my elder dd auditioned there were 13 , when her sister auditioned there were 15 , I believe this year there were only 8 .

It isn't many considering children are auditioning up to yr 10 entry .

Everyone at RBS has an award if they qualify for it .

Thanks for that - I was wondering about actual numbers of places for ballet as it seems to me that, far from being too many, there are nowhere near enough!

 

There have been many comments on this thread (and others) saying that if you don't get into one of the top schools then you're not good enough. There aren't enough places to go round. If there was more training available then they would be good enough to compete with the rest of the world at 16!

 

edited for typo

Edited June 18, 2014 by taxi4ballet

[aileen]

Taxi, so you want more lower schools or more places at the existing lower schools?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

More funded places at the existing lower schools I would say.

 

A school has to have a certain number if children in a year group to make the school viable. If only 7-8 children are funded there is a deficit (there are 12 dancers plus I think 6 dramas in my dds year group.

 

Am I correct in thinking that RBS take in 24 in each year?

[taxi4ballet]

Taxi, so you want more lower schools or more places at the existing lower schools?

More funded places, certainly!

 

I know that for the most part everyone who qualifies will get an MDS at RBS and Elmhurst, but this isn't the case at the other two, so they must end up losing lots of talented dancers because their parents simply can't afford the fees. When 90% of the population earns less than £40k that must mean that at least 90% of the people offered places will have to turn them down.

[rowan]

I have to say that I really don't agree that the best training is necessarily found in the vocational schools, or at least some of them. What they do offer is a good number of classes, which might be hard to find elsewhere. Otherwise, children at the vocational schools would snap up all the post-16 places and those children who had never gone to vocational school wouldn't get a look in, and we know that that isn't true.

[taxi4ballet]

Well there are more places post-16 so that would be the reason.

 

It just makes me wonder though, just how much talent is out there unrealised because their parents can't afford either full fees at vocational school or to spend every penny on classes every night, associates at weekends and every holiday on courses. It must be even harder for those with several children.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

There are far far more post 16 places than post 11 places available.

[Guest Autumn days]

But the places go to the most talented - funded or otherwise. Given therefore, that the most talented get a place and some still don't get 6th form places I can't see how training more, less talented children, can solve the problem!! I understand that the cut off for MDS is a lot higher that dada somost people are able to benefit or more likely to be able to pay if the dont.

[taxi4ballet]

But the places go to the most talented - funded or otherwise. Given therefore, that the most talented get a place and some still don't get 6th form places I can't see how training more, less talented children, can solve the problem!!

Let's take a hypothetical school with 20 places, 10 of which are funded so the top 10 on the list get funding.

 

In order for them to fill the 10 unfunded places they have to find people who can pay. 90% on the list can't. So they would have to have 100 people on the waiting list (in order of talent) to find 10. Will the 10 who can pay be the best 10? Possibly, possibly not.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Not necessarily

 

Yes the funding goes to the most talented. The remainder of places are offered & those who can afford the fees accept. Far more places are offered than the school/college expects to betaken up & if they are still under subscribed they then may offer to those on the waiting list or perhaps late applicants.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Of course it can backfire! There is a well known dance/MT college (not one of the ballet ones) who a few years ago ended up with far more students as they could normally handle as far more people accepted non dada places.

[rowan]

Setting aside funding, the places go to the most talented of those who audition. When DD was an associate at the 11-14 stage, at least four students I can think of (that I know of) had never auditioned for any vocational secondary school.

[2dancersmum]

Where do you get the 90% earning less than 40k from? I think from the statistics I've seen that that figure refers to individuals earnings so it does not necessarily relate to family income, where with both parents earning, the figure would be higher. I'm not saying that it makes vocational school any more affordable for most - just that it is probably not as high as 90%. Remember also that many schools colleges offer scholarships to help make places affordable for students they want - including Laines, Urdang, Hammond and LSC. There may well be more - those are just ones where I know of people with them - The Stage also offers a few scholarships each year.

[taxi4ballet]

I searched for it on Google and found it on a government website.

 

I was using that in the hypothetical scenario just as an example. Really, when you think of it, what percentage of parents would be able to pay in excess of £30k a year on fees? Probably only those earning FAR more than £40k, which was why I used it. 

[2dancersmum]

I quite agree that the percentage of parents able to pay £30k a year on fees would be low and still low for those schools that charge way less than that but the 40k you quote is for one persons earnings and not family income and when I see how many classes, associate schemes, performance courses and summer schools that some parents are able to afford, it does make me wonder just how much already goes to ballet training out of a family's income. I also agree with your post 151 and wonder how much unrealised talent is out there.

[taxi4ballet]

Yeah, I was just using the £40k as a random example since I wouldn't have thought more than 10 per cent of those applying would be likely to be able to afford full fees.

 

I wonder also, just how many parents decide not to let their talented youngsters audition at all because they know it would be out of their reach, and wouldn't want them to suffer the heartbreak of having to turn that longed-for place down.

[Fiz]

I couldn't let them audition, Taxi. It would be like "So near and yet so far".

[Kat09]

I believe that at the major ballet schools they will always take those that they find the most talented regardless of their ability to pay - there are very generous supporters of their scholarship funds and they do actively raise money for scholarships. These definitely will only go to the most talented applicants and presumably those that the schools feel will be most likely to succeed professionally.

Back to the original question .... I think probably yes

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Dd only auditioned for 1 school as we knew what we could afford & we are close enough to commute

 

The school & course that would probably be the most suitable has no funding so it was a no go.

[Pups_mum]

The whole thing is a complete minefield really isn't it? My DD realised a long time ago that she hasn't been blessed with the right physique for a career in classical ballet, and has been adamant that therefore dance will never be more than a hobby for her. However, in recent times some doubts have set in as she has started to realise that her hobby is pretty intense by most people's standards, and that the current situation isn't going to last a great deal longer. If she wants to keep dancing 6 days a week after she's left school she maybe needs to re think her plans.

We have known for a good while that she would never get a place at a top classical school so never pursued that  idea, but from observing what has happened to other people we know I think it is reasonably likely that she would get a post 18 place somewhere, particularly as she's got a pretty decent singing voice too. But  DD is smart enough to have worked out for herself that not all "somewheres" are equal, and that whilst there are always exceptions, the chances of getting work does vary depending on where you train. I have heard girls my DD's age say things along the lines of "I don't care where I go, as long as I am dancing", but she is rather more pragmatic and feels that spending years and a lot of money on a course that does not  provide a realistic chance of gainful employment at the end of it is not a great idea. So that poses the first set of problems. How do you balance the desire to dance against the need to earn a living? For most, there is going to have to be some compromise, as places at the very top schools are so limited, but how  far down the ranks of the establishments do you draw the line? And indeed how do you decide on the rankings in the first place?

 

Then there is the dreaded money issue. We are above the DADA income limit, so even if DD were good enough to gain one, we're not eligible.Despite having a good income, we don't have the required amount of disposable income to pay the full fees. If it were just me, my husband and DD that would be one thing, and we could probably adjust our lifestyle and manage. But I have 2 other children to consider, and I am not prepared to compromise the upbringing of 2, to benefit 1. I don't see any value in her auditioning for anywhere that we couldn't afford, which means DD would be restricted to courses where she could access student finance. That causes further worries, as DD is also quite academic, but it would mean that if she wanted to do an academic course in the future she would have "used up" her finance already.

 

The logical route is of course to forget the whole idea and go to university to do a "normal" degree, and hope that she finds a decent local dance school or a ballet society to attend once or twice a week. The "sensible" mother in me feels that this is what I should recommend. However, I am also acutely aware that dancing is largely for the young, and if she changes her mind later it will probably be too late, and I do struggle to imagine how someone who has lived and breathed dancing since she was barely out of nappies will get along without it. I sometimes wish I'd taken her for riding lessons!