Are we training too many dancers?

[Fiz]

Thank you, I appreciate your good wishes.

[aileen]

I'm glad to hear that apprenticeships (I assume that they are proper ones) are making a comeback. It's about time. Even if 50% of young people go to university (which I feel is too many; I think that a lot of these courses should be diplomas) that leaves the remaining 50% who need some form of training.

[Anon2]

I wonder how many of the students think it will really lead to a dream job - my dd and her peers just finishing year 11 and heading towards sixth form seem very grounded about it. Like my dd they probably all hope they will be the lucky one that ends up with a contract in graduate year but they are realistic too. Most of them have watched the majority of last few years worth of graduates struggle to find employment but equally they are excited when they hear one has a contract - even if they have never spoken a word to that 'sixth former' They know it isn't going to be easy but having got this far and knowing that at the moment they won't be happy unless they have a good shot at  trying to make a career in dance they forge on. The AD has never made any promises - he tells them it is about their potential and that they need to be versatile if they hope to be employable dancers.  

[taxi4ballet]

And as for training our own first - I'm not sure what to think here. I know ballet companies want the best dancers, but, looking at that ENB cast list yesterday, with not a single name that looked remotely British (to say nothing of the roster of Royal Ballet principals), it does make you stop and wonder. 

The very first time we took dd to see ENB (about 5 years ago) we were quite surprised to see just how few British dancers were among the company as a whole - about a third from memory.

 

Classical dance is an international occupation these days, but then you would expect the same to be true with classical musicians in orchestras. Looking at the names in the programme though, it seemed that almost all the musicians in the ENB orchestra were British.

 

It does concern me, to be honest, that with funding for the arts in such short supply the governmental bean-counters will take notice of the lack of British-trained tax-payer-funded dancers in British companies,and reduce future funding for dancers' training.

[aileen]

Well, international students who train at UK schools will not have been funded by the UK taxpayer and may of those international students will go on to dance with UK ballet companies. Not too many corps positions in UK companies go to dancers who have done all their training abroad. If you look at the biographies of the dancers you will see that very many of them have done some of their training in the UK, usually two or three years at upper school. It's true that quite a lot of dancers who are recruited for senior positions from outside the company have come from companies abroad.

[taxi4ballet]

Perhaps there are too few British dancers being trained then, rather than too many?

 

If the top schools have so many international students then it reduces the opportunities available for British-born dancers to receive top-level training. Would this in turn explain why they are under-represented in the top companies?

[CeliB]

I suppose it depends on the balance of how extreme a sacrifice the family has to make to support the dancer/actor or whatever, vs the likelihood of getting employment at the end of it.

 

We have supported DS to pursue a ballet career because 1) we currently can afford it (partly due to the whopping scholarship) 2) we have had constant feedback that he has everything required to be top notch 3) he has never been much cop academically (dyslexic and dyscalculic and disinterested), so it wasn't immediately obvious that there were other areas he could develop.

 

My daughter on the other hand spent her earlier years (6-13) training as a high board diver. At 13 we decided the sacrifice to the family in time and energy wasn't worth the reward because 1) the amount of time spent taking her around the country to dive was ruining our family life 2) she was unlikely to make it to international standard and there isn't much available for a diver as a plan 'b' except to be a gym coach and 3) she is far too able academically and in many other ways to spend her entire childhood (same kind of hours required as for ballet) on a sport where there was a limited chance of success (relative to other things she could do).

 

I think all you can do is keep the situation under constant review and keep an open mind. You need to be aware what their ambitions are, whether they match with their apparent ability at the time your are making the assessment, and what the alternative career choices might be. But this is no different to many other choices they make throughout their school life e.g. what GCSE choices, which 6th form college, which extra curricular activities etc. And at the end of the day if they still want to do it, knowing there is very little chance of a job at the end it is no different to someone who goes to university to study an academic subject that has no clear career pathway.....

[BankruptMum]

I don't think any dance students to my knowledge were resentful of any students that had funding in my daughters year, even though a group of these girls were so badly behaved and undetermined. However I object to tax payers money supporting children who aren't prepared to work hard in all areas of their education, these awards are like golden tickets a gift. My daughter was offered a DA DA at two schools, but chose the school that suited her the best. I would have been appalled if my daughter had have accepted one of these DADAs and then just took it for granted.

 

It has to be said also, my other children went to a private school and any behavior that I had witnessed at my daughters second vocational school, would have been immediate expulsion. One boy was expelled on the spot for bullying. Even though parents were paying school fees, the school takes great pride in their pupils behaviour and achievement. The children know that there will be concequences to bad behaviour and so do their parents. It is hard to get into this school , so therefore no one would want Hesperides their space.

 

 

Completely agree, I was very dissapointed and frustred at the time my daugher spent at vocational school.  It seemed more important to keep everyone happy rather than instill discipline (within the dance studio things were different).  My DD came back home in Year 9 and has since attended the local secondary school, its nothing special just your average comprehensive but she has loved every day of her time there, been well supported through her GCSE's, and discipine is very apparent.  Investors in business require ongoing feedback about their investments I dont understand why the Govrnment dont do more to ensure their money is being spent wisely and to ensure it is a worthwhile venture. 

[2dancersmum]

I think perhaps most of those going into and coming out of vocational schools with the professional diploma or BA in dance/ballet are probably well aware of the competition for jobs.  For those that attend the FE colleges, I am less sure.  I know many go onto to diploma and BA courses afterwards but many seem to think that the training they have is equivalent to the training offered by vocational schools.  This lack of awareness of the depth of training - especially in regard to ballet - but other dance styles too - is perhaps one of the reasons you see less British dancers in top positions also.  The Government tells us there are plenty of organisations offering dance courses at 16 and 18+ if you do not wish your child to attend a private college and pay fees (and accommodation).  DADA are supposed to offer the financial help to only the most talented to ensure the best get the necessary specialist training but how can it just be the most talented when all depends on finances.  Its not just those with incomes over 70k - now out of the system completely - but those on a DADA, unless on a very low income - all have fee contribution and the accommodation and living costs - and all to be paid up front, rather than on a loan system.  Please note I am not saying those with DADAs do not deserve them as they obviously do - I am just saying that the whole system of training to reach the top in this country is one where you are battling the system as it is just one obstacle after the other.

[Guest Autumn days]

Perhaps there are too few British dancers being trained then, rather than too many?

 

If the top schools have so many international students then it reduces the opportunities available for British-born dancers to receive top-level training. Would this in turn explain why they are under-represented in the top companies?

I think the schools take the best candidates and if they turn out to be from abroad then there will be more foreign students. Training more British students won't change this - assuming that everyone who wants to train does so - as it is still about only training the very best at 6th form level.

[Guest Autumn days]

I think perhaps most of those going into and coming out of vocational schools with the professional diploma or BA in dance/ballet are probably well aware of the competition for jobs.  For those that attend the FE colleges, I am less sure.  I know many go onto to diploma and BA courses afterwards but many seem to think that the training they have is equivalent to the training offered by vocational schools.  This lack of awareness of the depth of training - especially in regard to ballet - but other dance styles too - is perhaps one of the reasons you see less British dancers in top positions also.  The Government tells us there are plenty of organisations offering dance courses at 16 and 18+ if you do not wish your child to attend a private college and pay fees (and accommodation).  DADA are supposed to offer the financial help to only the most talented to ensure the best get the necessary specialist training but how can it just be the most talented when all depends on finances.  Its not just those with incomes over 70k - now out of the system completely - but those on a DADA, unless on a very low income - all have fee contribution and the accommodation and living costs - and all to be paid up front, rather than on a loan system.  Please note I am not saying those with DADAs do not deserve them as they obviously do - I am just saying that the whole system of training to reach the top in this country is one where you are battling the system as it is just one obstacle after the other.

I totally agree with all the ponts here!!

[taxi4ballet]

I think the schools take the best candidates and if they turn out to be from abroad then there will be more foreign students. Training more British students won't change this - assuming that everyone who wants to train does so - as it is still about only training the very best at 6th form level.

Agree totally with this, but unless there are more places for talented students to receive the best training before 6th form, then they won't be able to compete with the international candidates!

 

Bit of a Catch-22 isn't it?

[Guest Autumn days]

Still not sure I agree!! I think there are enough places in lower schools, too. Admittedly, not everyone who wants a career goes away at 16 but then it is possible to get into 6th form without being at vocational lower school. There is no shortage of good teachers and associate schemes. It remains that the best students are getting he training be way or another and are competing on a open playing field with students from abroad.

 

And talking of associate schemes, there a a lt of these, too, with new ones opening all he time. I think it is a bit different for younger children as it may well just be providing a fun weekend activity with no career aspirations - and parents generlly pay for these themselves so why not - but there is also a danger hat people are hoodwinked into thinking that a place on an associate scheme also means a brigh future. This may be true of the more selective ones (RBS etc) but by no means all of them!

[Tulip]

Even RBS associates, not everyone got into the top sixth form ballet schools.

[balletla]

I think perhaps most of those going into and coming out of vocational schools with the professional diploma or BA in dance/ballet are probably well aware of the competition for jobs.  For those that attend the FE colleges, I am less sure.  I know many go onto to diploma and BA courses afterwards but many seem to think that the training they have is equivalent to the training offered by vocational schools.  This lack of awareness of the depth of training - especially in regard to ballet - but other dance styles too - is perhaps one of the reasons you see less British dancers in top positions also.  The Government tells us there are plenty of organisations offering dance courses at 16 and 18+ if you do not wish your child to attend a private college and pay fees (and accommodation).  DADA are supposed to offer the financial help to only the most talented to ensure the best get the necessary specialist training but how can it just be the most talented when all depends on finances.  Its not just those with incomes over 70k - now out of the system completely - but those on a DADA, unless on a very low income - all have fee contribution and the accommodation and living costs - and all to be paid up front, rather than on a loan system.  Please note I am not saying those with DADAs do not deserve them as they obviously do - I am just saying that the whole system of training to reach the top in this country is one where you are battling the system as it is just one obstacle after the other.

 

 

I totally agree with all the ponts here!!

 

I totally agree as well. We may be training too many people but the quality of the training varies considerably and a lot of the training is not fit for purpose. The government should not be worried about the effectiveness of vocational school funding, it should be worried about the extortionate sums of money spent on college or university dance courses, many of which focus on gaining a qualification rather than training for the profession.

[aileen]

Ballet training is a global 'business' nowadays. It's not just the UK schools that have international students. Many schools, particularly in the US and Germany, have a large number of international students. The one exception is the POBSchool, the reasons for which have been explained elsewhere. Unless the UK schools and companies start to introduce quotas, which is unlikely, and probably illegal in the case of EU nationals, UK born students and graduates have to accept that they have to compete for places in schools and companies with people from all over the world. I don't know anything about college and university dance courses but I can't see that they would prepare their students for a career as a professional dancer. However, contemporary dancers do seem to train at wide variety of institutions. 

[Miracle]

Anybody have an idea roughly how many dadas are awarded for dance each academic year? X

[Anon2]

Anybody have an idea roughly how many dadas are awarded for dance each academic year? X

 

Don't think it will be a number it will be whatever proportion of the £14m the dance vocational schools get then shared out among the students according to their parents income band. There are 19 DADA institutes, not all dance or MT.

 

http://www.dadainfo.org.uk

[Anjuli_Bai]

Ballet training is a global 'business' nowadays. It's not just the UK schools that have international students. Many schools, particularly in the US and Germany, have a large number of international students. The one exception is the POBSchool, the reasons for which have been explained elsewhere. Unless the UK schools and companies start to introduce quotas, which is unlikely, and probably illegal in the case of EU nationals, UK born students and graduates have to accept that they have to compete for places in schools and companies with people from all over the world. I don't know anything about college and university dance courses but I can't see that they would prepare their students for a career as a professional dancer. However, contemporary dancers do seem to train at wide variety of institutions. 

 

 

As to this statement:  " I don't know anything about college and university dance courses but I can't see that they would prepare their students for a career as a professional dancer."

 

I do have an opinion on this from what I've seen in the USA regarding ballet.  The ballet classes - from what I've seen - in a college university setting is more about giving the student a taste rather than a sustained meal.  Often the class in not daily but more likely to be 2-3 days per week.  

 

After a semester or two in "beginners" one is expected to automatically go on to "intermediate" and likewise on to "advanced."   The program is usually a four year course of study leading to a degree.  One cannot take four years of ballet and expect to be a professional ballet dancer.  

 

If a student comes into the program having already taken years of ballet class at a neighborhood school that student will be way ahead of anything - including "advanced" that I have seen at a college/university.

 

Should the student wish to and fit into the "advanced" level in college the computer set up will not allow the student to repeat the same class for four years.  At most it will allow the student to take that class for two years and it will assume and register a "fail" on the student's record.

 

Then there is the problem of grading.  Does the teacher grade on effort, work ethic, dedication or does the teacher grade on natural attribute and ability? 

 

In my view the college/university program is more geared to teach about the arts rather than to truly perform them at anything close to professional/concert level.

 

However, such a program can open a door to other areas in the arts professions.

 

Personal experience:  I remember taking an advanced ballet class in a colllege (I was there to follow a specific teacher for a specific reason) and when I signed up for a second year of "advanced ballet" - the computer automatically gave me a "fail" - the assumption of the software system was that if I was repeating the class at the same level then I must have failed the first year.

 

As a teacher at the college I had to submit a detailed description of what I would be presenting in class.  When I listed the centre work format, I was told that I should only teach one step in each class.  In other words - 90 minutes of pirouettes on Monday, 90 minutes of glissade on Tuesday.  Which of course is nonsense.  I was also told that I shouldn't be giving pliés the second semester since I had already taught that in the first semester.

 

One ends up dealing with an administration that knows nothing about ballet.

 

Just my view - maybe things have changed although I still can't see how a four year program can produce a professional dancer. 

[Ellie]

One step per class ! That takes the idea of 'breaking it down' to a whole new level !

[rowan]

It mustn't be forgotten that we have to train more dancers than we need and would ever be needed, and this is what the dance education "system" is designed to do.. For one thing, the rate of attrition is so high - injury, assessing out, young person wanting a change of direction, etc, etc. But, more importantly, paying audiences will only pay to see the very best of the best, and even getting audiences to pay to watch dance is a job in itself. We cannot just limit the chances of becoming a dancer to those who auditioned and were accepted at the age of 11 at a small handful of UK dance schools and say, "These are and will be the best," if that best is not best in a world context.

[Melody]

Going back to the OP, I think there's less danger of training too many dancers, at least ballet dancers, than actors. Dancing is unusual in requiring so many years of intensive training, whereas some talent and some training will get you quite a lot further in acting - just for example, Helena Bonham Carter has reached the top of the profession with very little to no formal training, and that wouldn't be possible for a dancer. The sheer time and expense of training ballet dancers to the standard needed for a professional career will weed out an awful lot of candidates. It's much easier for someone to call himself an actor after a few drama courses at school and college and a bit of experience in amateur dramatics, but that doesn't necessarily mean much. So the article about all these thousands of actors making practically no money might be a bit misleading. I wonder how those numbers would look if they just took members of Equity.

 

Another problem with some performing-arts disciplines - but again not ballet - is that some of these new courses and diplomas from non-specialist institutions are making dubious claims about preparing students for professional careers. People will just have to be careful about researching what they get into as some of these places proliferate. I think classically trained dancers and musicians are probably fairly well insulated from these sorts of problems, though.

[aileen]

I think that there are enough places at lower schools, and there are comparatively few international students in the lower schools. If, after several years of full time training at vocational school, a UK based student does not succeed in getting into an upper school then, barring injury at the time of the auditions, this probably indicates that s/he is not cut out to be a professional (classical) dancer. There is no point shielding UK students from competition from overseas students by making allowances, introducing quotas etc. All that would happen is that the UK companies would start to recruit more of their dancers from schools abroad.   

[Guest Autumn days]

I totally agree, Aileen. I think children are protected from too much these days and, as such, they are less prepared for the real world, be they dancers or not!

[CouldDoBetter]

Some of my thoughts to some of the questions raised in this thread.

 

Are we training too many dancers? We are training more dancers than could possibly earn a living as professional dancers, but that does not necessarily mean that we are training too many dancers. If you knew at 11 who would be the best dancer at 20 then we would train far fewer! In any sport there are a lot of people that try for professional careers that never make it for various reasons. Dance is no different.

 

Is the funding working? MDS finding does seem more effective that DaDA. However I think MDS would be better if it looked at post-tax income as just looking at family pre-tax income puts single parent or families where only one parent works. But it works much better than DaDA which I suggest there should be less awards but adequate funding so that it helps the most talented.

 

Should MDS and DaDA award be scrutinised better? Possibly, I am not sure what scrutiny is placed on these awards. However, I thought all the top schools assessed students out if they were not doing well. Presumably this is not just related to dance ability, but also application and behaviour.

[Pas de Quatre]

Coulddobetter, ideally top schools should monitor the progress and behaviour of recipients of awards.  However, as Tulip and Hfbrew mention earlier in this thread, I have also seen people with DaDAs at a top school who were misbehaving and not trying.  They said to other pupils they no longer wished to dance as a career, but were quite happy to be funded for 6th form, thus depriving others who would have been more deserving of funding.

[Two left feet]

My opinion is that there are far to many schools, for the amount of jobs available . Every year there must be in the region of 300 students graduating from ballet dance schools in the UK and looking for work , with very few jobs in ballet companies available. And what about all the students graduating from ballet schools from around the world and who are applying for the same jobs.

The majority will not find work in a ballet company, what are they going to do , teach ? , how many teachers do we need. And there are new schools opening, so even more graduates.

Would it not be better to have a small number of dance school, knowing that if you are fortunate enough to get into these schools you are likely to find work.

[Lisa O`Brien]

I was just wondering about Paris Opera Ballet School. I understand it is their policy to only recruit French dancers. Is this correct? Yet France is a Member[a leading member] of the European Union,which is supposed to be open to ALL EU members to train and work. How can the French be allowed to be non-inclusive of the rest of Europe when it comes to their top Ballet Schools and/or companies then?

[afab]

Hi thequays, where did you get that? POB school does not recruit only French kids. There are a few foreigners in the school and nothing on their application form states that you have to be French to apply! Actually I don't remember anything about nationality on the form...

I believe people discourage themselves from applying because schooling is compulsory and follows the French system... And because everything is in French...

 

I suppose the fact one has to apply before turning 14 also scares foreigners.

Edited June 17, 2014 by afab

[hfbrew]

Where do you get 300 graduates from if you are only talking about Ballet Schools?

 

There are only a handful of schools that are specifically only training for Ballet at the top level. At graduate level there are usually only no more than a dozen or so left, where ds trained it was fewer than 10.

 

Its still tough getting a job though! Even getting into RBS does not guarantee work and even fewer schools wont change this fact.

 

And fewer pure Ballet schools would make it even harder for our most talented students to be trained properly because of the funding issues. Its hard enough as it is trying to get Government folks to recognise that studying Btec dance at a local college is no where near close to providing adequate professional training.

 

Obviously if you include graduates from all the universities and the schools more geared to musical theatre then yes the numbers are a lot but these students will not be looking to get into Ballet companies. And as has already been discussed, there are many more career avenues available these days than either teach or dance.

Edited June 17, 2014 by hfbrew

[Lisa O`Brien]

Hi thequays, where did you get that? POB school does not recruit only French kids. There are a few foreigners in the school and nothing on their application form states that you have to be French to apply! Actually I don't remember anything about nationality on the form...

I believe people discourage themselves from applying because schooling is compulsory and follows the French system... And because everything is in French...

 

I suppose the fact one has to apply before turning 14 also scares foreigners.

Sorry if i`ve misunderstood,Afab.I thought i had read somewhere on this forum that either the company or the school gave priority to French dancers, and  that they even only took on French dancers. Must be mistaken.!

[aileen]

Surely what discourages overseas students from applying to the POB School is the lack of boarding facilities which means that a parent would have to move to France. Once students are old enough to live on their own (ie they are 16) they are not accepted.

[aileen]

By a rough calculation, I would estimate that in the region of 120 students graduate from classical ballet courses (6 schools) in the UK each year.