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It's my turn to need some help.....


Anjuli_Bai
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Ok- it's my turn to need some help.  After all these years I still haven't figured out the various study levels y'all talk about.

 

For instance in the USA school grades (years) are divided so:

 

Kindergarten

 

Elementary grades: 1 through 6

 

Middle School (used to be called "Jr. High School") - grades 7 through 9.  In some districts it varies with 9 being high school and/or 7 being elementary school..

 

High School:  9 through 12

 

Community College (optional) encompasses the first two years of college/university completing the required basic studies usually at a much reduced cost of tuition and usually close to home.

 

 

Then in a four year curriculum leading to a degree at a college/university  - freshman, sophomore (if not already completed at a community college), then junior, senior.  

 

Then post graduate studies

 

.........................................................................................

 

Now, (finally) for my question.

 

What do you mean when you use the word "form"?

 

What do you mean when you use the word "level"?

 

What is GS - (general studies?) 

 

I would be most grateful if someone would take the time to lay out the process -

 

Thank you!

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I shall try & explain!

 

Our school system starts with Nursery/Pre-Primary (2-4yr olds)

 

Primary school starts at 4yrs old in Reception/Foundation followed by Year 1 - Year 6.

High school starts at 11yrs old and takes in Year 7 - Year 11 when students take GCSE exams at (usually) 16 yrs old.

6th Form or Years 12 & 13 is for 16-18yr olds. They can take A level exams (Advanced level), BTECs or move into more specialises training such as at vocational schools.

University comes after Yr 13. Courses can be 3 or 4 years then there's the usual post-graduate levels.

 

I think we use the word form to mean class throughout high school.

 

Years ago the years through high school were referred to as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th years so then is was a natural progression to call the next step 6th form.

 

Level just means what stage of exams are being studied.

 

General studies is just that. Quite general covering arts, politics, history etc. At least it was when I took it 25yrs ago!

 

If anyone else can clarify any better, please do. Hope this helps. :)

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Further to Orchidblue's very clear post, I would say...

 

"Level" may mean O-level or A-level.

Old-timers on this forum may refer to the O-level (Ordinary level) or the CSE (Certificate of Secondary Education) – the precursors to the GCSE – also taken at age 16. The GCSE was introduced to prevent the early division of children into either the more academic O-level course or the less academic CSE course. Very old-timers may refer to the School Certificate, the exam that predated the O-level.

 

And "GS" may mean grammar school.

The majority of children in the UK attend comprehensive schools for secondary education. These replaced the grammar schools/secondary modern schools (although these still exist in some areas).  The comprehensive school, which takes children of all abilities, was introduced to prevent early divisions into “academic” and “less-academic” education. The grammar schools (many fewer than there used to be) selected children on academic ability at age 11 – these children would be more likely to take the O-level. Those that did not pass (the majority) attended a secondary modern school.

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I was lucky to live in a county (Surrey) where many of the secondary schools ......to which you went if you failed the 11plus exam for admission to Grammar school....had a GCSE/ O level stream for many subjects so if you gained these then you could transfer to Grammar school for A levels at 16.

 

The reason you could get in at 16 was the fall out from children who had passed the eleven plus but then who either failed their O levels or who decided against Higher education for one reason or another.

 

It was not possible in all areas of the UK to do this. In some areas once at secondary school (as opposed to Grammar School) there was not so much chance for academic development and the chance to do O levels etc the more accepted currency of academia at the time.

It's why I generally disapprove of the 11 plus and think Comprehensives give more opportunity to develop between 11 and 16.

 

If Grammars should make a return here .....which many hope they will then.....Secondary schools must by Law I think be made to provide a GCSE stream.

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I think that what I am seeing is your division not only by grade (year) but by track - one track to higher education (college/univerity) and another track without leading to higher education.

 

Let's see if I have even a glimmer of understanding....

 

A level leads to higher education - college/university.  So, if one is taking A level exams - (is this a series of exams? )  one intends to go on to  higher education. 

 

O level does not lead to college/university

 

?

 

And....

 

So - 6th form in the UK would be the same as 6th grade in the USA?  About 11 yrs old.  (Something tells me I've got this wrong)

 

In the USA there are various "tracks" leading to preparation for post high school education such as college track and vocational track.  It used to be quite clear but in these days of potitical correctness the words and meanings have become muddled in the effort to make everyone feel equal, relevant, important and thus happy.  

 

The real reason I am asking these questions is when someone posts in a ballet question and gives her/his year in school as a way of giving his/her age - I have very little idea of the age of the poster and this often determines my answer to their ballet question.

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O level or GCSE exams are taken at 16 yrs old. They are taken in each subject studied eg English, Maths, History etc.

A levels are taken at 18yrs old. Usually only 3 or 4 subjects are studied at this Advanced level.

Good grades at A level lead into University courses.

That's a very general outline.

 

6th form is year 12 & 13. 16-18 year olds.

 

:)

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Nearly- you are right that A Levels- a 2 year course at age 16-18, usually lead to university.

O-Levels (Now called GCSEs) are taken at age 16, in year 11. So O Levels/GCSEs are compulsory, A Levels are not. Some people leave school aged 16 having taken GCSEs, to undergo an apprenticeship or a BTEC (equivalent to A Levels but in the form of continually assessed coursework rather than exams at the end of the course.)

 

No, USA 6th grade is equivalent to Year 7. 6th form in the UK is for age 16-18. (I believe the US equivalent would be high school, 11th to 12th grade??)

 

I hope this makes sense and is right!!!

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Unlike many countries which have a school-leaving age of 18, the UK's school-leaving age is 16, and the standard school-leaving exams are GCSEs. Passing five GCSEs at age 16, including English and Maths, is usually the minimum standard a student will need to achieve to be able to go on to further education or, often, to get a job. Academic children would gain more than five. 

 

GCSEs open up pathways to further education, including A-levels. Even for post-16 dance courses, a student would need five GCSEs as a minimum requirement. You would not, in the main, be able to study A-levels without GCSEs, and you would need good grades in the GCSE subject to be allowed to study that subject at A-level.

 

For the many children who stay on at school after 16 for a further two years, their GCSEs can be seen as an intermediate point in their high school education,and once they have gained A-levels, the GCSEs,and what grades they achieved in the exams, become less relevant.

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Students are now legally obliged to stay in full time education until the age of 18 albeit not necessarily doing A levels. Apprenticeships or similar are all legitimate full time education paths.

The year 11's that are doing their GCSEs now are the first year that this affects so they will all be required to return to education in September.

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It gets further complicated in England in that not all regions follow the same school system, although GCSEs at the end of year 11 and A levels at the end of year 13 remain the same. We do not have primary and secondary schools - we have First (years reception - year 5, aged 4 -10), Middle (years 6-8: aged 10-13) and High School (year 9 -13: aged 13-18):

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To differentiate a bit between Grammar Schools and Secondary Schools. Grammar Schools are for the academically very bright. In order for them to be accepted into a Grammar School ,pupils sit 2 ,hour long exams,one in November and the second one in February.The 2 exams are multiple choice questions covering English,Maths and Science questions. Grammar Schools are often ,highly valued because of their high academic achievement and often children will be coached by a private tutor for a year or even 2 years before taking the exams to give theman edge.The top 10 %who score the highest marks in their 2 exams overall will be offered a place at a Grammar School. This means they have been awarded an A Grade. The next highest mark is a Grade B1,and this is awarded to the next highest 10 percent of pupils. If there are any spare Grammar Schoolplaces stillavailable after all the pupils gaining an A grade [and there rarely are] then they can offer a place to a pupil who earned a grade B1.The next 10 percent down the list are awarded a grade B2. the next 10 percent are awarded a Grade C and the remaining 50 percent who took the exams are all awarded a D Grade.John Major,the former British Prime Minister failed his Eleven Plus Exam s have lots of other successful people.It`s controversial as people say you shouldn`tallow children to take part in something where the vast majority of those taking it are going to fail.It just means that if they DON`T take it there is no way they will go toGrammar School,where the argument can be if you take the exams at least you have a chance of passing. I guess for some parents it can be an ego thing.They like to think their child willbe clever enough to go to Grammar School,when in reality, only the top ten percent will get in. But their education is taken to a higher standard. For instance at my son`s Secondary School which he left last June,it was expected that most pupils would take between 7 and 9 GCSE subjects.Most Secondary Schools also have a remedial department where they have a handful of pupils who would never be able to achieve even 1 GCSE,let alone 7. They might do a course in Woodwork,Metalwork or Home Economics[Cookery]. But at a Grammar School it is expected that every pupil will take a minimul of 9 GCSE`s and most  do around 12 or more. Looking  at the Oxford University website[i was thinking of applying ;NOT LOL!!]it says in the Entrance Requirements as well as top grades at A Level [Grade A or preferably AStar]they expect most students applying to have at least nine Grade A`s at GCSE level as well.. So the more you have, say 14 or something,the better it looks on your application form.

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But the GREAT thing about when you leave school is there can often be a level playing field,where everyone gets the chance to achieve to the best of their abilities. I do honestly believe that my son was held back from achieving his full potential at secondary school .Sean failed his Eleven Plus;he got Grade D.His two exams were written in and had to be answered in,the Irish language. No English questions, just Maths and Science questions.The paper`s questions were all written in Irish,which they then had to translate into English, figure out what the answer was, then work out the Irish translation of it.!! Anyway, he got, not surprisingly a Grade D, because although his papers were in another language they were marked alongside,and compared with all the English speaking entrants too. His new school noted his Grade D for his Eleven Plus and deemed he mustn`t be very clever then to get the lowest grade, and placed him in the lowest ability set for every subject.He spent the next three years doing ridiculously easy work that didn`t test or stretch his abilities at all, despite my constant pleading with the school to move him up to a higher ability group. Anyway it has all worked out well now he has left .This is what I mean by a level playing field.He wouldn`t have been allowed to stay on at his school from age 16 to 18 to do A Levels ,because you need to achieve an A Grade in your GCSE of whichever subject you then wish to do at Advanced level. But he is flying with his BTEC in Health and Social Care. It is academically equivalent to 3 A Levels, and he has been getting Merit and Distinction Grades.Pass is equivalent to A Level Grade E ,Merit is equivalent to Grade C and Distinction is equivalent to A Level Grade A. Most universities nowadays accept the BTEC[business and Technology Education Council]as an alternative to more traditional A levels, and both me and Sean are delighted he has left school.!

Edited by thequays
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I don't know if it's still true in this day and age of "everyone must go to university" but in my day students had to have at least 2 A levels plus some O levels and a certain range of subjects before they could be accepted at a university.

 

Also, this may not be true nowadays but back in my day the British university undergraduate course took three years, not four like in the USA, because kids going to university tended to specialise a lot more in their last two years at school. The general rule of thumb is that in the core subject studied, a British bachelor's degree was more equivalent to a US master's degree, but the student tended to be a lot less schooled in subjects outside the one in which they took their degree.

 

And again in my day (but possibly not nowadays when so many colleges have been turned into universities), when a British kid referred to going to college, they usually meant a higher-education institution that wasn't a university, whereas in the USA the word "college" seems to be used for any higher-education institution from an Ivy League university to a local college that trains nurses and electricians. Also, in Britain the term "school" is reserved places teaching kids up to the age of 18 (with the exception of sixth-form colleges, if they still exist, which only take kids doing A levels or the International Baccalaureate diploma) whereas in the USA it tends to also be used to refer to colleges and universities.

 

I was always a bit dubious about the 11-plus exam because it was presented as a pass-fail type of exam, meaning that the more academic kids were classed as successful and the others were already, at a very young age, labeled as failures. Which then meant that secondary modern schools had the reputation of being the places where the failures were warehoused. Also, if you happened to be a late developer academically (as my husband was on account of a poor primary school), you were sometimes stuck on a track that didn't suit and was hard to get away from. It would be nice to have a system where potential craftsmen were given the same amount of respect as potential university professors. I'm not sure if comprehensive schools really did deal with that deficiency or were mostly a way of making everything mediocre, but when I hear people calling to bring back academic selection, it worries me a bit.

 

Anjuli_Bai, I don't know if this is helpful but it's a list of the American educational levels and their British equivalents.

 

http://fanbloomingtastic.typepad.com/blog/usa-and-uk-school-systems-ages-grades-years-schools.html

Edited by Melody
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To complicate it even more for you, Anjuli-Bai, thequays has described the set-up in Northern Ireland but I don't think anyone has mentioned Scottish Highers or the International Baccalaureate yet as alternatives to A level, the Bac being popular in some of our Public Schools (private schools to an American) - then our neighbour the Republic of Ireland has a completely different system altogether.

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Melody - that link you posted in is helpful.

 

I see the words "6th form college" - but I don't see a l, 2, 3, 4 or 5 form college.  How did we get to six?  Or shouldn't I ask?

 

I think this is one of those things I'm going to have to assume someone somewhere understands......

 

I do know that what is called private school in the USA is public school in the UK - but I knew that before I started this thread.

 

I need some chocolate......

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The sixth form follows what used to be called first form, second form, third form, fourth form and fifth form (now called years 7 to 11). Sixth forms can be part of a secondary school or they can be stand alone colleges. Not all schools have sixth forms and so pupils who want to study post-16 have to move to a sixth form at another school or go to a sixth form college. In the past, years 12 and 13 were referred to as the lower and upper sixths respectively.

 

Schools which are not funded by the state are known as independent schools but are often referred to as private schools. The term 'public school' usually denotes the older independent schools which pupils used to go to at 13 after their prep schools. Many of these schools now have lower schools and junior departments and many of them have boarding facilities.  

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Wow. I thought our schooling system was quite straightforward, having never moved to a different part of the country. Taking a step back & looking at it from an outsider/foreigner's point of view it's clear that it's actually as clear as mud!:/

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I was amused, reading this thread. I always find the American school descriptions very complicated, and am never quite sure what age the pupils are supposed to be.

 

I think it must be as a result of watching all those films about American High School students, who all appear to be about 35! 

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Anjuli, if it helps, here's a simplified version of state (Government Funded) schooling in my area (South East England):

 

Kindergarten - UK: Pre-School/Nursery School (usually from ages 3 to 5 or almost 5)

 

Elementary grades: 1 through 6 - UK: Primary School. Reception (age 4 or 5) then Year 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Approx age 4-11.

 

Middle School (used to be called "Jr. High School") - grades 7 through 9. In some districts it varies with 9 being high school and/or 7 being elementary school.. - UK: some areas do have Middle Schools which are Years 5 to 8.

 

Secondary/Senior Schools are more common, starting at Year 7 (1st year) aged 11. In Year 11 (aged 15-16) pupils take General Certificate of Secondary Education (GCSE) exams.

 

After Year 11 the options are:

 

Year 12 and 13 at Secondary School (also known as 6th form) to take Advanced Levels ("A'Levels), usually with the aim of leaving at 18 and going to University

 

Or

 

6th Form College to study A'Levels

 

Or

 

Local College to study Vocational subjects (Vocational in this context does not mean Ballet, but more Social Care, Childcare, Hair and Beauty, Mechanics, Performing Arts, Plumbing etc) at VQ (Vocational Qualification) level. These levels vary from Level 3 (equivalent to GCSEs) up to Foundation Degrees or Degrees.

 

Or straight into the workplace as an Apprentice/Junior

 

Or (hopefully) to Ballet School for 2 or 3 years from age 16-18 or 16-19 ;-)

 

If you take A'Levels and get your required Grades then either a three or four year course at University depending on your chosen subject.

 

Then post graduate studies or a job.

 

.........................................................................................

 

 

What do you mean when you use the word "form"? - Class. For schools with multi-form entry this would mean several "forms" (classes) made up of 20-30 pupils, all in the same Year (Grade).

 

What do you mean when you use the word "level"? - determines the level of exam syllabus being studied (e.g. Level 3/GCSE at 16)

 

So when we talk about going to Dance School at Upper School/6th Form we mean the equivalent of Year 12 at 16/17, having left Secondary school at the end of Year 11 after completing GCSEs.

 

Does that help at all or have I complicated things even more for you? :-)

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Schools don't just offer 'A' levels in the sixth form. Unless they are academically selective they have to cater for a wide range of abilities and they offer vocational qualifications in subjects such as travel and tourism. I'm not sure if it is from this year, but soon all children will be required to stay in education until they are 18, either at school or at a sixth form or at a college of further education. I think that the UK must be one of the few countries in the developed world to allow their children (until recently) to leave school at 16.

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Anjuli, if it helps, here's a simplified version of state (Government Funded) schooling in my area (South East England):

 

Kindergarten - UK: Pre-School/Nursery School (usually from ages 3 to 5 or almost 5)

 

Elementary grades: 1 through 6 - UK: Primary School. Reception (age 4 or 5) then Year 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Approx age 4-11.

 

Middle School (used to be called "Jr. High School") - grades 7 through 9. In some districts it varies with 9 being high school and/or 7 being elementary school.. - UK: some areas do have Middle Schools which are Years 5 to 8.

 

Secondary/Senior Schools are more common, starting at Year 7 (1st year) aged 11. In Year 11 (aged 15-16) pupils take General Certificate of Secondary Education (GCSE) exams.

 

After Year 11 the options are:

 

Year 12 and 13 at Secondary School (also known as 6th form) to take Advanced Levels ("A'Levels), usually with the aim of leaving at 18 and going to University

 

Or

 

6th Form College to study A'Levels

 

Or

 

Local College to study Vocational subjects (Vocational in this context does not mean Ballet, but more Social Care, Childcare, Hair and Beauty, Mechanics, Performing Arts, Plumbing etc) at VQ (Vocational Qualification) level. These levels vary from Level 3 (equivalent to GCSEs) up to Foundation Degrees or Degrees.

 

Or straight into the workplace as an Apprentice/Junior

 

Or (hopefully) to Ballet School for 2 or 3 years from age 16-18 or 16-19 ;-)

 

If you take A'Levels and get your required Grades then either a three or four year course at University depending on your chosen subject.

 

Then post graduate studies or a job.

 

.........................................................................................

 

 

What do you mean when you use the word "form"? - Class. For schools with multi-form entry this would mean several "forms" (classes) made up of 20-30 pupils, all in the same Year (Grade).

 

What do you mean when you use the word "level"? - determines the level of exam syllabus being studied (e.g. Level 3/GCSE at 16)

 

So when we talk about going to Dance School at Upper School/6th Form we mean the equivalent of Year 12 at 16/17, having left Secondary school at the end of Year 11 after completing GCSEs.

 

Does that help at all or have I complicated things even more for you? :-)

 

Spanner - yes, that does help.  I'm going to print it out.

 

And what others have said helps, too.  And I thank you all.

 

Speaking of leaving school before the 12th year......

 

In the USA, I do believe that after completing 10th grade (16 yrs old) the student is legally able to leave school.  And in some districts, more than half do.  It is a national tragedy.  It means that in ten years the teachers - the education system - never managed to engage the mind of the student - in some way - never made contact with a young mind.  

 

We have some of the finest universities, especially when it comes to research, engineering, sciences, etc., but if one looks at the student population attending those serious courses of study there is a huge foreign component.  Were it not for that foreign population of students, there is no way America would be producing the numbers of professionals we need especially in science and research. 

 

Every time there is an effort to make sure that minimal standards (such as being able to read, write, add 2 plus 2) are met after 12 years of basic schooling - that effort is slowly but surely dumbed down.  There is enough blame to cover every aspect of the education system: teachers, unions, parents, administration, etc.

 

Frankly, there's too much time given over to PC classes designed to socially engineer the student body.  

 

Many concerned parents have been leaving the state run schools (public schools) and opting for charter schools.  These are privately funded by the parents.  They usually exceed the minimal standards  imposed by the states.  However, there is a move by the gov't to take control of the curriculum of these schools beyond basic standards by mandating studies which touch on moral issues.  

 

There is also a constant effort to "improve" methodology in teaching very basic things like reading and math(s).  Phonics worked well for years, but was changed to "modern" methods like "see/say" - which gave the student no means to decode a word and so we have generations of children who can't read.   Now it is being done with very basic adding-substracting of numbers.  The new concept has something to do with sets and families of numbers.  I don't understand it - so I can't explain it.  However, my husband and my son are both university degreed electrical engineers and THEY don't understand my 6 yr old grandson's math(s) homework.  

 

Script handwriting is being eliminated.  Memorizing the multiplication tables is being elminated because it is assumed that every child has a calculator.  So, the calculator will be busy while the brain is free to roam through all the PC world of "feeling good."

 

Makes me glad I went to school when I did.  

 

The best education was my husband's - he attended schools taught by Jesuits.  By the 12th grade (high school - age 18) he had four solid years of Latin and Spanish, four years of what is now college/university level math(s), science, history, and no problem composing a well written exercise - including the ability to parse a sentence (which is no longer taught).   After 4 yrs in the Navy (Korean War), without the need to attend any kind of prep school - he easily passed the entrance exams to university.  Now that's an education.  

 

When my sister was teaching English (reading/writing) she couldn't even locate a book on how to parse a sentence.  We had to send her ours.  

 

Well, that's quite a rant isn't  it?

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Don't get me started on the miserable state of science education in the USA and the UK. The narrowness of the topics studied at A-level (although I think this is changing, finally) has meant that people can get through an advanced education in the UK without having studied any science at all since their mid-teens, and the attitude towards science in the USA has been politicised to an incredible degree. Not only do more than half of Republicans reject evolution, but the percentage has actually increased in recent years, and the same trend is true for global warming. This sort of attitude is bound to be reflected in the schools. There's no point going to university to study an expensive subject that leaves you saddled with student loan debt, doesn't lead to a well-paid or secure job in the way a law or economics degree would, and not only isn't respected but these days is regarded with deep suspicion.

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Don't get me started on the miserable state of science education in the USA and the UK. The narrowness of the topics studied at A-level (although I think this is changing, finally) has meant that people can get through an advanced education in the UK without having studied any science at all since their mid-teens, and the attitude towards science in the USA has been politicised to an incredible degree. Not only do more than half of Republicans reject evolution, but the percentage has actually increased in recent years, and the same trend is true for global warming. This sort of attitude is bound to be reflected in the schools. There's no point going to university to study an expensive subject that leaves you saddled with student loan debt, doesn't lead to a well-paid or secure job in the way a law or economics degree would, and not only isn't respected but these days is regarded with deep suspicion.

 

 

There is enough blame to go around to encompass both sides of the political equation.

 

Can we please discuss something without it becoming about global warming?

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I discuss all sorts of things without it becoming about global warming. But as long as we're talking about science, and especially science education, global warming is relevant. It's the latest bone of contention in science education, the previous one being evolution, and it all adds up to science and scientists being distrusted by society. Then people wonder why Americans don't want to do science courses at school and become scientists. I'm finally starting to hear some of my husband's colleagues say that they wouldn't encourage young people to go into science these days because there's very little to recommend it any more, and these are people who 5 or 10 years ago were still feeling positive about the prospects of life as a scientist. Not any more, though. 

Edited by Melody
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Let's stick to what levels/grades our children do at what ages and the suchlike please.

 

Just to confuse matters further - I work at an FE (further education) and HE (higher education) college. In our part of the college (known as a school just to make things worse!) many of our students go on to do degree courses - either with us or at other universities.

 

Levels of qualification are also interesting. Level 2 is GCSE A*-C grade equivalent, level 3 is A level equivalent, level 4 is first year of a degree and so on. So our FE (16-18 year olds) are doing level 2 or 3 diplomas - depending on how well they did in their GCSEs - and the aim is to have them leave with a level 3 advanced diploma (equivalent of 3 A levels).

 

So our students have a few choices when they leave at 18 or 19 - university, apprenticeships, work.

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How long have BTec qualifications been around? I remember in the 1970s there were City & Guilds qualifications for vocational subjects but BTec isn't something I recognise from the time I used to live in the UK.

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