Black Swans, fouettés and costumes in Swan Lake

[Amelia]

7 hours ago, Missfrankiecat said:

But ultimately ballet is a technical art and an ability to perform the steps as choreographed is the baseline of a principal dancer for me.  So I can't go along with the theory that performing 32 fouettés isn't integral to dancing Odile ...

 

This is not the first time that a discussion about fouette has arisen on this forum. It has already been mentioned that the two legendary and most technically equipped ballerinas - Dudinskaya and Plisetskaya - proved that performing 32 fouettés isn't integral to dancing Odile.
It was Natalia Dudinskaya, who danced on the Leningrad stage for 33 years and had the crowning role of Odile. (In 1930s, Vaganova in her production gave roles of Odette and Odile to different ballerinas.) 
During her lifetime, Dudinskaya was considered the ideal embodiment of St. Petersburg school but she never was doing 32 fouettés. The reason was the structure of her legs. With X-shaped legs, it is more difficult to rotate, since the axis of rotation is not straight enough, but Dudinskaya did other rotations perfectly and preferred piqué manège, which, by the way, is no less difficult to do. She had phenomenal coordination. Today, when it seemed that dance technique had advanced, ballerinas do not risk dancing at this tempo. Such speed was easy for Dudinskaya because she was short in stature. You can see her piqué manège here in 4 m 35 s:

 

Her student Ulyana Lopatkina recalls: “She instilled in me and all her students with her faith that there are no insurmountable difficulties and that the difficulties themselves are nothing compared to creativity.”
 

[FionaM]

@Amelia thank you for this hugely impressive performance.  That double manège is very speedy and in awesome control.   His double tours are impressive too.  As is the final lift from a run!   No holding an arabesque auto assist a careful supported plié to lift.  
 

yet it’s her alluring devotion and their connection that is the lasting impression.  

[Sabine0308]

Thank you @Amelia for the video,  still impressive today!!!

[LinMM]

Thanks for video Amelia. 
I think her speed is very exciting and much more “edge of seat” than the fouettés which I know are technically demanding to keep centred etc but nevertheless can sometimes seem a bit pedestrian. 
 

What I also notice in these old films and indeed from the Vaganova museum in St Petersburg is the much more delicate pointe shoes worn with much smaller balancing tips! 

 

Talking of Susan Hampshire earlier in the thread didn’t  she once attend Elmhurst Ballet School in the days when  it was in Camberley?  I might be muddling her with Jenny Agutter but I’m sure it was Susan who went there or maybe both of them. 
Lovely to hear she is so enthusiastic still at 86!! 
 

[alison]

Wow, those piqué turns!  And doubles, too - I didn't know that was a possibility.

[Fonty]

@Amelia  I am trying to visualise what you mean by "X shaped legs", but I am not sure what you mean.  

[Richard LH]

13 minutes ago, Fonty said:

@Amelia  I am trying to visualise what you mean by "X shaped legs", but I am not sure what you mean.  

I think it's the same as knock knees...when there is a gap between your ankles when you stand with your knees together. This did seem to be noticeable with Dudinskaya in the video....

(As opposed to bow legs where there is gap between the knees when standing with the ankles together, which must be why I am also unable to perform fouettes 😂)

Edited March 19 by Richard LH

[Fonty]

3 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

I think it's the same as knock knees...when there is a gap between your ankles when you stand with your knees together. This did seem to be noticeable with Dudinskaya in the video....

 

Oh, ok.  I will have another look at the video.  Although I am surprised that any professional ballet dancer would suffer from that as an adult.  

[swanprincess]

40 minutes ago, Fonty said:

@Amelia  I am trying to visualise what you mean by "X shaped legs", but I am not sure what you mean.  

Hyperextension perhaps? If the dancer has her knees fully straight (ie locked back) in 1st position the heels will be apart, thus giving the X impression

[Mummykool]

5 hours ago, alison said:

Wow, those piqué turns!  And doubles, too - I didn't know that was a possibility.

I seem to remember Osipova doing exactly the same steps back in 2018 when an injury prevented her from doing the 32 fouettes. It was sensational

[Amelia]

5 hours ago, Fonty said:

@Amelia  I am trying to visualise what you mean by "X shaped legs", but I am not sure what you mean.  

 

When I came back to my comp just now, I saw that you, Fonty, already received explanation from Richard LH and swanprincess.  I am not an expert on biomechanics but they both are right comparing to what I heard from very well informed professionals. 
The explanation on x-shaped legs was given to me for the first time over 70 years ago by an experienced ballet répétiteur, when I dared  to question why N.D. doesn’t do fouettés. I was told that everyone's body is unique and some people have legs with a curved line towards back, sort of saber-shaped. It is caused by hyperextention in the knees. For some it is a dream but for some creates a problem since it distorts the axis, which affects the balance. As far as I remember it was said that N.D. had the gaps either between knees or heals when standing in 1st and 6th positions. This is how God created her. She was one of the most indefatigably working dancers that was admitted even by the very demanding Vaganova. In fact, she was Vaganova's second favourite pupil after the first, Marina Semyonova.  Natalia Dudinskaya compensated for her small physical “defect” with many brilliant technical achievements, some of which she had no equal in. 
The video above that I linked is from the film made when Dudinskaya was 41 and Konstantin Sergeyev 43.

[alison]

1 hour ago, Mummykool said:

I seem to remember Osipova doing exactly the same steps back in 2018 when an injury prevented her from doing the 32 fouettes. It was sensational

 

I don't remember her doing doubles in the performance I saw, though.

[Mummykool]

2 hours ago, alison said:

 

I don't remember her doing doubles in the performance I saw, though.

 

I don't recall, either - I think it would be etched in everyone's memories if she had! 
Unless I've got my definitions wrong, Dudinskaya starts with runs of single piqué turns interspersed with chaines turns, and finishes with a continuous run of single piqué turns. My recollection of Osipova is similar - and just as fast!

 

[Lizbie1]

8 minutes ago, Mummykool said:

 

I don't recall, either - I think it would be etched in everyone's memories if she had! 
Unless I've got my definitions wrong, Dudinskaya starts with runs of single piqué turns interspersed with chaines turns, and finishes with a continuous run of single piqué turns. My recollection of Osipova is similar - and just as fast!

 

 

Osipova's were really thrilling - more so than any SL fouettés I've seen. A wonderful memory and something I feel privileged to have seen.

[Roberta]

On 19/03/2024 at 04:04, Amelia said:

This is not the first time that a discussion about fouette has arisen on this forum

 

 

Olga Preobrazhenskaya called them a 'vulgar trick' and did series of turns instead too. There's a long list of the famous who performed another step or steps. 

 

There's really very little of Swan Lake that is 'traditional'. I think even the so called 'Black Swan' appeared sometime in the forties? I know it makes a good contrast to the 'White Swan' story and so, ornithology is satisfied, but really, she was simply an 'enchantress' sent out by dad (an owl?) to dazzle and seduce the hapless Siegfried (not any sort of bird) wearing her best party dress. 

 

https://balletalert.invisionzone.com/topic/46404-swan-lakes-odile-not-always-dressed-in-black/

 

"How fascinating it is to study photographs of Alicia Markova’s Odile in the 1934 Vic-Wells Ballet production of “Le Lac des cygnes” (“Swan Lake”). The role is transformed by the bright - golden? - tutu she wore. It cannot be said too often that Odile was not dressed in black by any company until the 1940s: a stupid coarsening of a subtle role, as if labelling her with Evil round her neck..."

 

[Amelia]

12 hours ago, Roberta said:

I think even the so called 'Black Swan' appeared sometime in the forties? 

.........................................................

https://balletalert.invisionzone.com/topic/46404-swan-lakes-odile-not-always-dressed-in-black/

"How fascinating it is to study photographs of Alicia Markova’s Odile in the 1934 Vic-Wells Ballet production of “Le Lac des cygnes” (“Swan Lake”). The role is transformed by the bright - golden? - tutu she wore. It cannot be said too often that Odile was not dressed in black by any company until the 1940s: a stupid coarsening of a subtle role, as if labelling her with Evil round her neck..."

You are referring to the opinion of Alistair Macaulay, quoted on the Ballet Alert forum. The respected critic was wrong. Even when the Directorate of the Imperial Theatres was negotiating with Tchaikovsky about staging his ballet, Marius Petipa had already made sketches with black and white swans long before the opening night. On the official website of the Mariinsky Theatre you can see a photo of ballerina Vera Trefilova in a Black Swan costume. Her last performance in this role was in 1910, which is much earlier than the 1940s.
https://www.mariinsky.ru/about/exhibitions/petipa200/swan_lake/

 

Edited March 22 by Amelia
Spelling of the name corrected.

[Geoff]

5 hours ago, Amelia said:

 Even when the Directorate of the Imperial Theatres was negotiating with Tchaikovsky about staging his ballet, Marius Petipa had already made sketches with black and white swans long before the opening night.

This is interesting Amelia, thank you. I must check the books but might I ask a simple question? Tchaikovsky died in 1893 (the Swan Lake score having of course been composed many years before). My understanding is that discussions about mounting a new production did not start until after the composer was no longer alive, with the first night two years later. Is that right?

[Roberta]

7 hours ago, Amelia said:

You are referring to the opinion of Alistair Macaulay, quoted on the Ballet Alert forum. The respected critic was wrong. Even when the Directorate of the Imperial Theatres was negotiating with Tchaikovsky about staging his ballet, Marius Petipa had already made sketches with black and white swans long before the opening night. On the official website of the Mariinsky Theatre you can see a photo of ballerina Vera Trefilova in a Black Swan costume. Her last performance in this role was in 1910, which is much earlier than the 1940s.
https://www.mariinsky.ru/about/exhibitions/petipa200/swan_lake/

 

 

Yes I've seen the photos where the costume appears as black, yet other sources give other colours (dark blue) and also various colours for other productions (there's a photo of Markova and she's certainly not in anything dark), there is actually no logical reason why Odile should be a 'swan' as there is no lake in the ballroom and she is a human 'enchantress'?  Why would she be also be a swan? Alistair Macauley must have his reasons for saying what he did? 

 

As for the fouettés', I've seen it cited that the 'famous' 32 that were Legnani's party piece were actually 'arabesque fouettés' which are en dedans; I wish I could additionally find again something I once read where she herself, years later, said she never did 32! 

 

Whatever the reality it's still an absurd story the ballet is based on.  And 32 is simply tedium in my opinion. 

 

Tradition is only as long as the last production at times. And history is fluid. 

 

Also fouettés nowadays (en dehors) look rather different to earlier film of how they used to be performed,  with lower leg and different foot position once it is returned to / past the knee (far more crossed). The higher 'whip' leg and the desire to do doubles and the rest I think means getting off balance is more likely. 

 

(I'll add a link here to the Wiki article on Swan Lake, which I'm sure isn't the last word either and plenty about which we could quibble. However, it is succinct and readable also does give a flavour of how we should not treat Swan Lake as arriving fully formed and passed down through the years with little unchanged. Even the score, as it is usually performed nowadays, was / is an arrangement by Drigo.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_Lake) 

 

Edited March 22 by Roberta

[Amelia]

6 hours ago, Geoff said:

This is interesting Amelia, thank you. I must check the books but might I ask a simple question? Tchaikovsky died in 1893 (the Swan Lake score having of course been composed many years before). My understanding is that discussions about mounting a new production did not start until after the composer was no longer alive, with the first night two years later. Is that right?

 

Thank you, Geoff. You are right that the Swan Lake score has been composed earlier. In fact, Tchaikovsky worked on it at the request/commission of the Bolshoi Theatre in 1875-77 and the opening night of this four-act ballet in March 1877 was a failure. Critics trashed everything about it...except the music.
Like you I was also intrigued by the timing of negotiations but didn’t questioned it since as far as I know the articles on the official website of Mariinsky are usually written by selected ballet historians. Just now I have written and passed your question to one of them. I don’t know how soon he will be able to answer but when the reply comes I will post it here.

[Roberta]

53 minutes ago, Amelia said:

Thank you, Geoff. You are right that the Swan Lake score has been composed earlier. In fact, Tchaikovsky worked on it at the request/commission of the Bolshoi Theatre in 1875-77 and the opening night of this four-act ballet in March 1877 was a failure. Critics trashed everything about it...except the music.

 

Ah the irony!

 

He would later write to his protégé, the composer Sergei Taneyev, "I listened to the Delibes ballet Sylvia ... what charm, what elegance, what wealth of melody, rhythm, and harmony. I was ashamed, for if I had known of this music then, I would not have written Swan Lake." Tchaikovsky. 

 

Despite the opening night 'failure' (not the Petipa / Ivanov ballet which opened in St Petersburg which dates from 1895)  of the Julius Reisinger one, Moscow, 1877:

 

"Yet the fact remains (and is too often omitted in accounts of this initial production) that this staging survived for six years with a total of 41 performances – many more than several other ballets from the repertoire of this theatre". 

 

Edited March 22 by Roberta

[Amelia]

5 hours ago, Roberta said:

Yes I've seen the photos where the costume appears as black, yet other sources give other colours (dark blue) and also various colours for other productions (there's a photo of Markova and she's certainly not in anything dark).......................

 

Hello, Roberta. You raised several topics in your post. I will only reply to one where you have responded to my previous post.
It is quite possible that for almost 150 years, in numerous SL productions, Odile may well have appeared in dark blue and also various colours. However, at the end of XIX c. Petipa immediately conceived white and black swans, which  is an indisputable fact and he implemented it on stage. It is proven by descriptions and photographs of ballerinas of the early XX century. This is why I believe that Alistair Macaulay's statement that "Odile was not dressed in black by any company until the 1940s" is wrong.

This is a minor issue. I see that much more important issues are discussed on this page now.

Edited March 22 by Amelia

[Roberta]

6 minutes ago, Amelia said:

Hello, Roberta. You raised several topics in your post. I will only answer one where you quoted me.
It is quite possible that for almost 150 years, in numerous SL productions, Odile may well have appeared in dark blue and also various colours. However, at the end of XIX c. Petipa immediately conceived white and black swans, which  is an indisputable fact and he implemented it on stage. It is proven by descriptions and photographs of ballerinas of the early XX century. This is why I believe that Alistair Macaulay's statement that "Odile was not dressed in black by any company until the 1940s" is wrong.

This is a minor issue. I see that much more important issues are discussed on this page now.

 

Yes it's minor, or is it?  I think the point is we talk of the 'Black Swan PDD' and Odile being a black swan, but logic dictates actually she's not a swan at all.  It's Odette who takes the form of a swan at times then becomes a woman and it's the woman Siegfried falls in love with ( otherwise it's a bit... er... kinky?) 

 

So when Odile entraps him into swearing devotion (thus meaning poor Odette is doomed to remain part swan part woman forever) she's a woman not a swan!

 

So whatever colour dress she wears is really immaterial, though I suspect any production now veering from the now accepted norm of black would be badly received, just as many think 32 fouettés are set in stone, handed down from on high.  

 

It's a ludicrous story. 

 

[Sebastian]

2 hours ago, Amelia said:

 

Thank you, Geoff. You are right that the Swan Lake score has been composed earlier. In fact, Tchaikovsky worked on it at the request/commission of the Bolshoi Theatre in 1875-77 and the opening night of this four-act ballet in March 1877 was a failure. Critics trashed everything about it...except the music.
Like you I was also intrigued by the timing of negotiations but didn’t questioned it since as far as I know the articles on the official website of Mariinsky are usually written by selected ballet historians. Just now I have written and passed your question to one of them. I don’t know how soon he will be able to answer but when the reply comes I will post it here.

While we wait for hopefully definitive information from Russian historians, here are some interim notes. Wiley, who examined the papers in the 1980s, says there were plans developing before Tchaikovsky died. And Petipa, in his memoirs, writes of Tchaikovsky‘s „delight“ at the thought that Petipa would do Swan Lake. Tchaikovsky‘s death prompted a production of the Odile act as part of a memorial concert, extracted from what had already been set for the autumn 1894 season. 

 

The costume for Odile is not necessarily a small matter. Contradicting a scholarly critic is best done on evidence so I just had a quick look through The Ballet Called Swan Lake. This book suggests nothing definitive either way but the first illustration of what could be a black costume is a photograph from 1921. As ever, more research is needed. 
 

Edited March 22 by Sebastian

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, Roberta said:

Yes it's minor, or is it?  I think the point is we talk of the 'Black Swan PDD' and Odile being a black swan, but logic dictates actually she's not a swan at all.  It's Odette who takes the form of a swan at times then becomes a woman and it's the woman Siegfried falls in love with ( otherwise it's a bit... er... kinky?) 

 

So when Odile entraps him into swearing devotion (thus meaning poor Odette is doomed to remain part swan part woman forever) she's a woman not a swan!

 

So whatever colour dress she wears is really immaterial, though I suspect any production now veering from the now accepted norm of black would be badly received, just as many think 32 fouettés are set in stone, handed down from on high.  

 

It's a ludicrous story. 

 

Well yes - as you say, when Siegfried falls in love with Odette she's not a swan, but she's doing a pretty good impression of one... so Odile, in order to deceive Siegfried, imitates Odette. Neither are actually swans, but who cares.

 

I think it's a scintillating story.

[Roberta]

9 minutes ago, bridiem said:

Neither are actually swans, but who cares.

 

Though surely Odette IS a swan at times? That's the spell she's under? Otherwise that's a lot of dancing over nothing. 

 

Odile does swan type movements as part of the deception, but she's always a woman. 

 

[bridiem]

4 minutes ago, Roberta said:

Though surely Odette IS a swan at times? That's the spell she's under? Otherwise that's a lot of dancing over nothing. 

 

Yes - but as you say, when Siegfried falls in love with her - and whenever we see her - she's a woman (who nevertheless still looks like a swan...).

[Roberta]

Just now, bridiem said:

Yes - but as you say, when Siegfried falls in love with her - and whenever we see her - she's a woman (who nevertheless still looks like a swan...).

 

There are productions though where she 'flies' in as a swan!  FLapping overhead! Then appears on stage in human form, in a tutu, as swans turned into women do. 

 

I don't think Odile in any production is ever anything except a woman.

[bridiem]

4 minutes ago, Roberta said:

There are productions though where she 'flies' in as a swan!  FLapping overhead! Then appears on stage in human form, in a tutu, as swans turned into women do. 

 

I don't think Odile in any production is ever anything except a woman.

 

At risk of repeating myself: Odile exactly imitates (the extremely swan-like) Odette in order to deceive Siegfried. So referring to the 'black swan' does not seem to me to be unreasonable. But I think we have different acceptance-levels of what is or isn't reasonable, so perhaps there's no point discussing it further.

[Roberta]

1 minute ago, bridiem said:

So referring to the 'black swan' does not seem to me to be unreasonable.

 

Unless she's wearing blue, or gold, or whatever other colours early productions had her in!

 

Odile wasn't in jet black in the 1895 production and I actually wonder (maybe @Sebastian has some inkling?) when she was first referred to as the 'Black Swan' and the (in)famous PDD became commonly known as the Black Swan PDD.

 

More research required. 

 

 

[Sebastian]

36 minutes ago, Roberta said:

Unless she's wearing blue, or gold, or whatever other colours early productions had her in!

 

Odile wasn't in jet black in the 1895 production and I actually wonder (maybe @Sebastian has some inkling?) when she was first referred to as the 'Black Swan' and the (in)famous PDD became commonly known as the Black Swan PDD.

@Roberta,  a quick check suggests midnight blue was selected for the original costume (the colour which in the right light appears "blacker than black"). The contemporary 1890s sketches - so says a distinguished costume historian from New York - show “a kind of aurora borealis tutu designed with multicolored rays that fan over the bodice from the waist and that shoot from the waist to the tutu's edge”. 
 

British ballerinas apparently even wore red on occasion before the 1940s, which might be where Alastair Macaulay got that date from.   
 

Perhaps also worth pointing out that the west didn’t see Swan Lake as we know it until Sergeyev’s 1934 production for the VicWells ballet, so we really need Russian reports, sketches and photographs for the first forty years. 
 

Edited March 22 by Sebastian

[Roberta]

25 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

British ballerinas apparently even wore red on occasion before the 1940s, which might be where Alastair Macaulay got that date from.  

 

Just to throw into the mix, it appears Markova wore cream and gold (I appreciate discoloration may have occurred) as the 'White Swan' (though actually, not a swan at this point) rather than the brilliant white more common today! 1948

 

https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/14407642.tutu-worn-by-legendary-ballerina-sells-for-2600-at-stourbridge-auction/#gallery2

 

So... the question remains as to when Odile turned into a 'Black Swan'. 

[Sebastian]

28 minutes ago, Roberta said:

So... the question remains as to when Odile turned into a 'Black Swan'. 

One answer, as above, is that her bodice may have looked black - in her midnight blue - from the outset, but with a multicoloured skirt (which was long not a sticking out tutu).  
 

Cyril Beaumont, in the 1938 edition of Complete Book of.Ballets, refers to Rotbart “dressed to represent a black swan, and his daughter Odile”.

 

Edited March 22 by Sebastian

[Roberta]

2 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

“dressed to represent a black swan, and his daughter Odile”.

 

Though was this at what was a 'costume ball' in some productions? Possibly his fancy dress! 

 

An owl, a swan..  pity the poor dancer who had a feather allergy.