Company auditions help

[DD Driver]

7 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

There are masterclasses at every event that all the participants attend but they aren’t scored and of those  the only class that really matters is the scholarship one. You can make it to the final, be placed and still not get a scholarship, they are independent of one another. 

 

In our experience, of the Australian YGP semi-finals, every moment counts, as a moment to show yourself.  Getting to the YAGP NY Finals is just one opportunity.  Larissa and/or her team are watching, talking to some entrants and taking lots of videos that may be sent directly to AD's.  If a dancer knows the schools or companies that they are targeting then they can communicate this in their entry & at the event, if asked.  Good matches can be made, such as an offer or scholarship for: a place, short term visit or summer intensive.  Yes, YAGP like who they like - as do all AD's.  Yes, it also helps if you are already known to them e.g. attended in previous years.  

[Birdy]

2 hours ago, Sophoife said:

Not an issue at American Ballet Theatre at the moment I wouldn't think. Sascha Radetsky is AD of the studio company and Stella Abrera is AD of the JKO School.

Yes, Stella became AD of the school starting with the 22-23 school year, so It’s going to be interesting to see what happens over the next couple of years. I think the school also has some dorms now, so they can bring in more students from outside New York.

[Sophoife]

I'd probably be one of the few who, when Stella made her Sydney début as Giselle, was able to say I'd also seen Sascha's Albrecht. He took 15-16 months away from ABT in the Noughties and danced as a principal with Het Nationale Ballet. He never danced the role with ABT to my knowledge, and she danced it in the Philippines and then Sydney in 2014 before finally being given her ABT début the following year (she had joined the company in 1996).

 

 

Edited January 13 by Sophoife
Added last phrase

[Kerfuffle]

5 hours ago, DD Driver said:

 

In our experience, of the Australian YGP semi-finals, every moment counts, as a moment to show yourself.  Getting to the YAGP NY Finals is just one opportunity.  Larissa and/or her team are watching, talking to some entrants and taking lots of videos that may be sent directly to AD's.  If a dancer knows the schools or companies that they are targeting then they can communicate this in their entry & at the event, if asked.  Good matches can be made, such as an offer or scholarship for: a place, short term visit or summer intensive.  Yes, YAGP like who they like - as do all AD's.  Yes, it also helps if you are already known to them e.g. attended in previous years.  

Yes Larissa is always watching and will step in to help if she thinks a dancer has potential - she gave my DD a scholarship and was very supportive. What I meant was that unlike Prix de Lausanne the classes don’t directly contribute to your results on stage. Building up a reputation is advantageous - I think this is where a lot of British dancers are late arriving at the party! It seems like an expensive way to get into a good school, rather than auditioning directly but if you’re based overseas and want European training I guess that it could be a good idea if you can afford it! 

[Swanwings]

Slight diversion of topic, but I wonder if anyone can tell me which upper schools are particularly good at helping dancers find work on graduation? DD is looking at options of upper schools and Id like to know if there are any which really help them with auditions, connections to companies, introductions to directors etc.

 

DD is reluctant to go down the route of competitions just now (this may change of course), and I'm wondering how detrimantal to her prospects this may be?

[Tiaramum]

Kings International Ballet Academy really do help their dancers find work, they really work on being job ready and getting their students to think and act like dancers. 

[BalletChild]

DD is currently applying to companies all over.  I find it odd that none of the companies list what the pay will be, like you would with any other job.  

 

Anyway, a question I'm unsure of, maybe some of you with experience will know, are the Junior Ballet Company positions generally paid positions?  I'm assuming they are as they are presented as a job opportunity, but I'm not quite sure...

[alison]

Hmm, I'm no expert, but what I've picked up from here is that by no means all junior companies/"pre-professional" programmes pay a salary, and for some you are expected to pay.

 

See 

and have a search on here for "apprenticeships", "junior companies", "pre-professional" and the like. 

 

EDIT: Or this one:

 

[Birdy]

Unfortunately there is no set terminology for a junior company. The US is rife with post-graduate Trainee positions which are tuition based. When I think of Junior/Studio/Second companies, I think of the much smaller, non-tuition programs that often use dancers for corp roles or second cast roles with the main company and have their own performances. My DD was recently offered a contract (in Europe) that has a housing allowance, free shoes and a small monthly salary. I know of a large US company that does the same. 

[BalletChild]

Has anyone had experience of GC Dance Events (Italy) as a successful route to company positions?

 

 

Edited February 29 by BalletChild
update company name

[Peanut68]

On 28/01/2024 at 21:53, Birdy said:

Unfortunately there is no set terminology for a junior company. The US is rife with post-graduate Trainee positions which are tuition based. When I think of Junior/Studio/Second companies, I think of the much smaller, non-tuition programs that often use dancers for corp roles or second cast roles with the main company and have their own performances. My DD was recently offered a contract (in Europe) that has a housing allowance, free shoes and a small monthly salary. I know of a large US company that does the same. 

Is it just me who is wondering if this is a worrying newish trend? More & more of these type of hybrid training/work internship/apprenticeship ‘opportunities’ all over…ate they actually enabling dancers to be financially self sufficient or is it still generally requiring extra support with family funding needed? Just how long does this go on for & at which point do people decide it’s not a job if it’s not enough to actually live on 12 months of the year? I keep coming back to thinking just imagine if you trained to be an electrician & you then had to pay to go to a get together to then demonstrate your skills alongside 200 other electricians in front of 5 or 6 HR personal from big electrical firms with perhaps 19-15 jobs to offer? And then to find the pay is not exactly standard industry or living wage but it’s a stipend or work experience? 
I thought the Dickensian era of families buying an opportunity to gain a job ended decades ago…. Not in dance it sadly seems. 

[Peanut68]

Apologies for typos in last post… checked too late to edit & improve- oops!

[Birdy]

I think every situation is different and they all need to be evaluated carefully. Some programs don’t charge tuition and give housing allowances and stipends. While it might not be quite enough to live on independently, if most dancers come out of the program with jobs, then the additional support parents give is still less (and for a shorter period) that paying for college or other apprenticeships. However, if few of the dancers end up getting jobs, either with the main company or at other companies, then they are likely mostly being used to fill out the company and extending a dream that may never become a reality. I have noticed that some second companies run through schools still give stipends and housing, where traineeships often charge tuition—so it’s hard to judge what’s what without really delving deeply into it. 

 

Whether second companies are a step that needs to exist at all is another conversation. I do think that it can be a great transition for a dancer so they don’t abruptly go from having the guidance and structure of class to being thrown into the sink or swim of company class and rehearsals. In a good program they also get a lot of performance experience, learn to work as a group and have different choreographers work with them. They also seem to get a lot more neoclassical experience in second companies than they get in schools. But again, is this totally necessary? There are still more second company spaces than company spaces, so for many this is just more expense without a job at the end of it. 

[Allwrong]

I wonder too about how necessary these programmes are, and to what extent the additional experiences improve dancing and to what extent they are simply an enjoyable extra. I'm sure they add something, but maybe it is not an essential something. Which is fine, were it not for cost.

 

DD is getting to the stage where she still feels there is a lot to do by practice and strengthening, but as training advances, tuition is actually less necessary. Given that, what she feels she need post-graduation to improve, if she doesn't have a paid contract, is ready access to studio space and a monthly private lesson to prevent any developing bad habits. She could do this living at home and using her old dance studio when not in use for classes (she has an incredibly supportive local dance teacher, but I suspect that is not uncommon), and splashing out on regular high-level lessons. And that would be so much cheaper than further programmes, but not recognised on a CV. So you end up feeling you have to find the money to create a conventional CV more than anything. 

Is this cynical? Or naive? Or both?

We are trying to do this on a shoe-string (in other words, a sensible budget 🤣), but sometimes I have the feeling money-saving shortcuts are not acceptable to the ballet establishment (whatever that is).

[Viviangrace]

Yes, I have the same question. 

 

Is it critical and valued more to have the CV reflecting some sort of official "trainee" or other type of program?  

 

I'm specifically referring to the trainee programs that include a tuition payment, when one has already graduated from his/her professional school. 

 

Or could one continue to take daily class, cross train, supplement with privates and re-audition next year without the costly training program on the CV?   (Like ALLWRONG is mentioning above)

 

How much weight is put in the CV vs in person audition performance by these directors?  

 

Of course the trainee program may offer connections or opportunities one couldn't replicate by the do-it-yourself method?  

[Aklf]

A few observations from the current auditions!

 

1.The standard of competition is incredibly high - enormous numbers of very talented dancers graduating from many respected schools around the world 

 

2.The jobs are scarce, (several major and smaller companies not even accepting applications to audition) One junior company shared that they had over 530 videos for 36 audition spaces. 

 

3.The number of paid trainee programmes is on the rise exponentially, globally. 
 

4.There are traineeships that seem to masquerade as junior company contracts, it is hard to tell which are paid and which ones you pay for! 

 

5.There are a high number of professional dancers from all over the world and from all ranks (20-27yrs)  joining the auditions alongside graduates. Is this a new thing?

 

Perhaps people who have been through the audition experience in recent years can share whether this sounds familiar?

 

Wonder whether it’s a combination of Covid aftermath, funding cuts and brexit impacting the job market for graduates? 

[Peanut68]

7 hours ago, Allwrong said:

I wonder too about how necessary these programmes are, and to what extent the additional experiences improve dancing and to what extent they are simply an enjoyable extra. I'm sure they add something, but maybe it is not an essential something. Which is fine, were it not for cost.

 

DD is getting to the stage where she still feels there is a lot to do by practice and strengthening, but as training advances, tuition is actually less necessary. Given that, what she feels she need post-graduation to improve, if she doesn't have a paid contract, is ready access to studio space and a monthly private lesson to prevent any developing bad habits. She could do this living at home and using her old dance studio when not in use for classes (she has an incredibly supportive local dance teacher, but I suspect that is not uncommon), and splashing out on regular high-level lessons. And that would be so much cheaper than further programmes, but not recognised on a CV. So you end up feeling you have to find the money to create a conventional CV more than anything. 

Is this cynical? Or naive? Or both?

We are trying to do this on a shoe-string (in other words, a sensible budget 🤣), but sometimes I have the feeling money-saving shortcuts are not acceptable to the ballet establishment (whatever that is).

Agree completely with all this. There is definitely a (misplaced?) defined expected route & activities that are ‘rights of passage’ acts young dancers feel they ‘must do’. Funny how these things are all paid experiences that mostly only can be funded by supportive family finances…. 
Cynicism overload 

[Emeralds]

On 01/03/2024 at 11:12, Allwrong said:

I wonder too about how necessary these programmes are, and to what extent the additional experiences improve dancing and to what extent they are simply an enjoyable extra. I'm sure they add something, but maybe it is not an essential something. Which is fine, were it not for cost.

 

DD is getting to the stage where she still feels there is a lot to do by practice and strengthening, but as training advances, tuition is actually less necessary. Given that, what she feels she need post-graduation to improve, if she doesn't have a paid contract, is ready access to studio space and a monthly private lesson to prevent any developing bad habits. She could do this living at home and using her old dance studio when not in use for classes (she has an incredibly supportive local dance teacher, but I suspect that is not uncommon), and splashing out on regular high-level lessons. And that would be so much cheaper than further programmes, but not recognised on a CV. So you end up feeling you have to find the money to create a conventional CV more than anything. 

Is this cynical? Or naive? Or both?

We are trying to do this on a shoe-string (in other words, a sensible budget 🤣), but sometimes I have the feeling money-saving shortcuts are not acceptable to the ballet establishment (whatever that is).

When you get to a company audition, the most important thing is how you move and how you dance. Even if your teachers were the two or three most famous dancers in the world and you graduated from the most prestigious academy in the world and attended the most famous summer schools, it will count for zero if you're not (if they are hiring 3 dancers) among the best 3 candidates on the day of the audition. There are many candidates with glittering CVs rejected at auditions every year. 

 

The crucial question of course, is what kind of training and experiences your DD needs to advance to the standard she has to be in order to be successful at audition. The summer school experiences can be beneficial if a student needs extra guidance and inspiration to improve in addition to learning alongside other students from other institutions to assess what standard she should be at. If she is planning to get a professional job she will need teaching of some kind- practising on one's own isn't enough.

 

The teaching needs to be focused towards her goals of course. A useful kind of class might be open classes taught by experienced retired/practising professionals and attended by a mix of amateurs and professionals - eg Pineapple Dance Studios. 

[Allwrong]

This is encouraging. Thank you. And the point about learning alongside others is a useful one. 

[Viviangrace]

Another thing we have experienced is this...following the audition the director will sometimes select a FEW (3-5 max) dancers that are of interest and have these stay for an informal interview.  A few times my dancer has had VERBAL contract offers made and been told to expect to receive a contract the next week. However, the email received the next week states unfortunately no more contracts are available.  

[Lifeafterballet]

7 hours ago, Viviangrace said:

Another thing we have experienced is this...following the audition the director will sometimes select a FEW (3-5 max) dancers that are of interest and have these stay for an informal interview.  A few times my dancer has had VERBAL contract offers made and been told to expect to receive a contract the next week. However, the email received the next week states unfortunately no more contracts are available.  

This happened to my daughter in the March of her graduate year with a European ballet company. Just before the first lockdown.

Then they telephoned her out of the blue in the October to ask if she was still available, only to later say that they were unable to offer her a contract again due to going into another lockdown.

It’s like being dangled on a piece of string and the hope keeps you in the game for longer than you should be. 
It’s soul destroying. Employment laws don’t seem to apply to the ballet world at all. 

 

[Peanut68]

15 hours ago, Viviangrace said:

Another thing we have experienced is this...following the audition the director will sometimes select a FEW (3-5 max) dancers that are of interest and have these stay for an informal interview.  A few times my dancer has had VERBAL contract offers made and been told to expect to receive a contract the next week. However, the email received the next week states unfortunately no more contracts are available.  

I've heard of this happening to lots of dancers too...it's almost as though directors enjoy giving hope in person...then it's actually quite easy for them to dash these by an impersonal email.....not good HR practice is it? would this be allowed/tolerated in any other profession?

[glowlight]

The approach my dd experiences with cruise ship companies have seems much fairer. They tell the dancers they like that they are 'On the books' - which gives a nice boost and you know there's a possibility of a contract if one is available , but you know it isn't a definite offer.

[Jan McNulty]

3 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I've heard of this happening to lots of dancers too...it's almost as though directors enjoy giving hope in person...then it's actually quite easy for them to dash these by an impersonal email.....not good HR practice is it? would this be allowed/tolerated in any other profession?

 

 

I don't know if it is still allowed but many years ago a lady transferred to my team from down south.  Her husband, who had been a house husband was offered a job by his previous employer at the new location.  He accepted the written offer and waited for a start date.  It didn't come and when he contacted the company he was told that there weren't any vacancies left.

 

He went for legal advice and was told that as they hadn't given him a start date and a contract of employment had not been issued for signature no action could be taken against the company!!  How many people have been affected by this over the years.

[Pas de Quatre]

It is nothing new - decades ago this happened to me with a German company, I was assured the contract would be in the post and possibly arrive before I returned home (pre email days). It never came and I learnt through the grapevine this was common. However at my first job in France the "in-house" stationery on which all letters and contracts were printed had as form of watermark round the four edges of every sheet of paper, "no matter what discussions may have take  place, nothing is confirmed until a contract has been signed".

[glowlight]

Sometimes things change for an employer after an offer is made. Sometimes the person making the offer isn't aware of decisions which are being made higher up. So sadly, this kind of thing can and does happen outside the world of dance. Personally I'd rather have an offer withdrawn than start a new job and have the rug pulled out from under my feet during my probation period, which might be the alternative.

 

However if ADs are making verbal offers to more candidates than they have vacancies for, to cover themselves incase their preferred candidate says 'no'...that would be a different thing (but you probably still can't do anything about it. Just accept that if they treat people like that you probably didn't want to work for them anyway).