Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Ballet Saga]

On 26/09/2023 at 21:48, Ondine said:

 

 

I wish your children well, but any career 'in the performing arts' really isn't that straightforward to achieve. What alternatives do you envisage?

 

 

 

 

I don’t feel this is a fair comment. Are you suggesting that to go into a career in the performing arts isn’t worth it because it isn’t easy to achieve? 
Or that being a singer or trained ballet dancer can’t lead to anything else? 
 

[Anon2]

19 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I think you will find that certainly 2 if not more of the dancers were referring to Upper School experiences....

They may have all been through the schools mentioned lower schools (or moved from one to the other) but my feeling was that some of the very worst experiences shared were from age 16+ so in Upper School - perhaps a continuation of poor practices begun in lower schools but not necessarily. Without knowing the exact school history of each individual we will not know this but I definitely think both RBS & Elmhurst Upper Schools were directly implicated in the programme & I'm sure many of us on here would add other schools - both lower & upper & those that are only from age 16+/colleges/conservatoires/universities to the list of those with dubious standards in teaching/leadership/pastoral care - the ballet world & the 'normal' one too! 

My advice to families of new starters is to be aware of the 'honeymoon period' of vocational training. Early days often do not flag up issues & also many students feel unable to share any negative stories after perhaps years of begging to go in to full time training & huge family time/financial sacrifices....

I know I myself - when I finally made it to ballet school - was so utterly disappointed by rubbish experience but dare not share with my single parent family for fear of the 'I told you so' & the anxiety of the money they could ill afford that had already been spent on dance uniform/travel/boarding kit/audition fees etc etc. Nor could I have coped with the 'tail between legs' going back to my old 'normal school' & the mocking that I'm sure i would've got from old school 'friends'....at 16 I had no concept that you could complain to authority figures or that my county council funding should've given me a right to expect certain standards...I worried I'd have to pay back the money to the council & my family could lose their home if had to find such money....so i 'sucked it up' & put up & shut up....& left with no career advice over 2 years other than 'if you are serious about a career in ballet then you need to seriously consider a bust reduction' said by Deputy Head of Dance in a ballet class in front of others!! That I now see was CHILD ABUSE!! And - horrifically - one girl (& I think aged only 17 at the the time) actually went overseas & had a bust reduction operation in a school holiday.....I can only hope that this had no adverse effects on her longterm but I do recall being horrified at the actual mechanics of the operation (removing & resewing on of nipple area etc) & the scaring in the first few months after the operation. I truly hope that it was never a regretted decision by this young woman or her family but honestly - how could this ever have been deemed appropriate advice for a minor aged under 18 in a school setting?

And this teacher? Well, they are on the board of governors for one prestigious vocational school today!!! Their words haunted me all my adult life & I have always had a very negative relationship with my female anatomy....

I never shared this story with my parent & never really shared just what a waste of time & money those 2 years at a 'top ballet school' were...& I do often wonder 'what might have been' had the teachers been better, or there have not been such stigma or feeling of failure or shame of dropping out had I left. 

So ask your young folk very invasive questions. Take 'happy happy' with a pinch of salt & delve deeper....& trust your gut & their gut instincts too....& always, always let them know that a change of heart/mind/path/school is just one step along the path to their future & happiness today is paramount to achieve longterm life happiness! 

Sorry...last part does sound a bit trite....but I do feel that my bad vocational time really messed me up & STILL has an impact on me (& even on my relationship with ballet) over 30 years later.

 

 

 

I was horrified when my daughter told me one of her peers had a bust reduction in 2014/5 at the request of her school. To learn since that this isn’t uncommon and was being pushed 30 years ago too is just dreadful. 
 

Your comments about not wanting to say you were unhappy because of the financial implications to your family touched a nerve too. My daughter had a DaDA, we often talked to her about whether she should leave, her response flipped between ‘it’s not that bad, I’m tired …’ or ‘it will be better next term when we are …’ I’ve since found out the teaching staff often reminded the students that if they left their parents were responsible to pay the full fees for the full 3 year course. I can’t imagine there was anyone on a DaDA who thought well my parents will just pick up the bill. 
 

 

[akh]

20 minutes ago, Anon2 said:

I was horrified when my daughter told me one of her peers had a bust reduction in 2014/5 at the request of her school. To learn since that this isn’t uncommon and was being pushed 30 years ago too is just dreadful. 
 

Your comments about not wanting to say you were unhappy because of the financial implications to your family touched a nerve too. My daughter had a DaDA, we often talked to her about whether she should leave, her response flipped between ‘it’s not that bad, I’m tired …’ or ‘it will be better next term when we are …’ I’ve since found out the teaching staff often reminded the students that if they left their parents were responsible to pay the full fees for the full 3 year course. I can’t imagine there was anyone on a DaDA who thought well my parents will just pick up the bill. 
 

 

Yes not uncommon (bust reduction advice)

[Ondine]

5 hours ago, Graceful said:

I don’t feel this is a fair comment. Are you suggesting that to go into a career in the performing arts isn’t worth it because it isn’t easy to achieve? 
Or that being a singer or trained ballet dancer can’t lead to anything else? 

 

No and no.  I didn't suggest either of those things.

 

 

[Ballet Saga]

39 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

No and no.  I didn't suggest either of those things.

 

 

That’s good to hear but I do wonder what you meant by it. 
 

 

[Jewel]

*You can get funding for 4 years for your first degree. *

 

The exact rules are the length of the course plus 1 year which is meant for those who need to re-sit a year.  Open university funding isn't available for everyone is they already have a degree unless they are studying specific subjects.  

[Peanut68]

I think some level 6 qualifications such as a Trinity Level 6 Diploma may impact on student loan funding availability if one were to start a new 3-4 year degree. There are I believe some possible (eg. Nursing I think is one) but then how many studying at vocational dance school will have gained necessary A-Levels for these? It is rather unfair as often a Trinity Level 6 Diploma has been self funded or by DaDa - so not from the student loan pot of money - and as loans have to be paid back surely this policing should change? 

[Kerfuffle]

3 hours ago, Graceful said:

That’s good to hear but I do wonder what you meant by it. 
 

 

@OndineI would like to know too. I would expect more support from here, we are all somehow related to arts training so surely have DCs with similar aspirations? 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Kerfuffle

[DVDfan]

Please, folks,  this  is a very emotive and painful subject for all who are caught up in it.

Don't let's have arguments about a single comment and what someone meant by it. Does it matter? Really? I'd hate to see this very useful and important thread - probably the most important ever on this forum, have to close down.

Let's offer support to those affected and try to explain the issues to those who haven't experienced them, so that they too can understand and in some small way be part of the solution.

[mum5678]

1 hour ago, Peanut68 said:

I think some level 6 qualifications such as a Trinity Level 6 Diploma may impact on student loan funding availability if one were to start a new 3-4 year degree. There are I believe some possible (eg. Nursing I think is one) but then how many studying at vocational dance school will have gained necessary A-Levels for these? It is rather unfair as often a Trinity Level 6 Diploma has been self funded or by DaDa - so not from the student loan pot of money - and as loans have to be paid back surely this policing should change? 

I feel strongly about this too... if it's considered a 'degree' or equal in level, and treated as such, especially in terms of accessing further education, it seems entirely unfair that the students can't access student loans and funding and also limits their options considerably. It seems it should be either one way or the other... it either is a degree level qualification and they should have access to all the appropriate funding (especially in this era of government wanting to recognise vocational qualifications), or it's not and they should have access to further education if they need/want it at a later date. The government really need to straighten this discrepancy out! 

[Ruby Foo]

2 points stand out to me from this thread 

Firstly the issues that cause / have caused distress, both in the immediate and long term are often not always obvious to students or parents whether they are in training or working towards it.

 

For example- imagine if a student was told  ‘you can participate in these classes but the teacher will not be looking at you or correcting you. Do you still want to participate ( and pay) for this class?’

Or ‘ You have been accepted to US but you don’t have a good body for the course. Do you still want to accept?’

Or ‘ You look physically this way but the teacher would prefer if you look physically different. Are you willing to change’?

Put this way, the issues are no longer hidden and the student has a choice. But the issues ARE hidden and no student or parent can possibly know what will be revealed as the training continues, when or to whom.

Secondly, the issues described here, which are students experiences of the schools discussed in the Panorama program, stretch over many decades. Back to 1980.’s I think. Perhaps even further back. I find it extremely worrying that the very same issues are being raised again and again right up to the present day.

Schools have definitely improved in some areas over this time, that’s for sure and yet these issues that leave a debilitating impact on students ( and families) are still as prevalent as ever. What conclusions can we draw from this? That the tradition of Ballet Culture ( taking in all that means including companies / international traditions) can’t adapt enough to fully protect children? Or is it simply not willing to ? Protecting pure Classical Ballet ( and weirdly the fashions of physique that surround it) may deem more important.

 

[Ruby Foo]

2 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

2 points stand out to me from this thread 

Firstly the issues that cause / have caused distress, both in the immediate and long term are often not always obvious to students or parents whether they are in training or working towards it.

 

For example- imagine if a student was told  ‘you can participate in these classes but the teacher will not be looking at you or correcting you. Do you still want to participate ( and pay) for this class?’

Or ‘ You have been accepted to US but you don’t have a good body for the course. Do you still want to accept?’

Or ‘ You look physically this way but the teacher would prefer if you look physically different. Are you willing to change’?

Put this way, the issues are no longer hidden and the student has a choice. But the issues ARE hidden and no student or parent can possibly know what will be revealed as the training continues, when or to whom.

Secondly, the issues described here, which are students experiences of the schools discussed in the Panorama program, stretch over many decades. Back to 1980.’s I think. Perhaps even further back. I find it extremely worrying that the very same issues are being raised again and again right up to the present day.

Schools have definitely improved in some areas over this time, that’s for sure and yet these issues that leave a debilitating impact on students ( and families) are still as prevalent as ever. What conclusions can we draw from this? That the tradition of Ballet Culture ( taking in all that means including companies / international traditions) can’t adapt enough to fully protect children? Or is it simply not willing to ? Protecting pure Classical Ballet ( and weirdly the fashions of physique that surround it) may deem more important.

 

I also want to mention how important this thread is. There are many threads on this forum that offer amazing, positive and useful advice. We have used it for years and years and grateful thanks to the moderators for making it all happen.

The issues on this thread are equally important if not more and have been hidden for years due to legal reasons.

 Now we can finally discuss what has been going on behind closed doors.

[Kerfuffle]

22 minutes ago, DVDfan said:

Please, folks,  this  is a very emotive and painful subject for all who are caught up in it.

Don't let's have arguments about a single comment and what someone meant by it. Does it matter? Really? I'd hate to see this very useful and important thread - probably the most important ever on this forum, have to close down.

Let's offer support to those affected and try to explain the issues to those who haven't experienced them, so that they too can understand and in some small way be part of the solution.

It’s pretty clear that there has been a lot of painful experience here. It’s not  easy being in a situation where your child is training right now either - it might seem unimportant  to you but I did find those comments quite unfair. I don’t want this thread shut down either but we should be offering support to one another, whether our DCs dancing is in the past or present. That’s the way things will change. 

[Candleque]

So sad and distressing to read about Peanut68's experience and all the others on this thread. I am reminded of a (public) podcast interview with former RB first soloist Tierney Heap where she talks openly about body image, including being told as a RBS US student that she should get a breast reduction.

The Royal Ballet School owes it to students past and present to address these issues imo. Instead they just appear to be ramping up social posts that show happy kids on a school outing or exploring London. 

[Ondine]

Fact.

 

any career 'in the performing arts' really isn't that straightforward to achieve.

 

Question

 

What alternatives do you envisage?

 

Reality. A career in the performing arts as a performer requires talent, hard work, dedication,  and a great deal of luck. Some don't make it, despite the talent and hard work, as we have partly detailed in this thread.

 

It's not always easy,  for many reasons, as also detailed in this thread, to simply move to another arts related career.

 

Yes people do. They also move into all sorts of other careers which I can detail, from personal knowledge, as livings have to be earned, but it's not always a simple sideways move. Funding for further qualifications is one block.

 

Which is why I asked what was envisaged. 

 

 

 

 

[Ondine]

11 minutes ago, Candleque said:

Tierney Heap

 

Very sad. Hardly danced since promotion to First Soloist then retired through injury.

 

 

 

[capybara]

I know of dancers who appear to have had bust reductions but I am shocked that students should be given this advice.

 

I realise that most ballerinas have small breasts but there are, now, several dancers in both the RB and ENB, including increasingly prominent ones, who have what I would regard as full busts.

 

 

[Justkeepsmiling]

2 hours ago, mum5678 said:

feel strongly about this too... if it's considered a 'degree' or equal in level, and treated as such, especially in terms of accessing further education, it seems entirely unfair that the students can't access student loans and funding and also limits their options considerably. It seems it should be either one way or the other... it either is a degree level qualification and they should have access to all the appropriate funding (especially in this era of government wanting to recognise vocational qualifications), or it's not and they should have access to further education if they need/want it at a later date. The government really need to straighten this discrepancy out! 

This!!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[Ondine]

10 minutes ago, capybara said:

I know of dancers who appear to have had bust reductions but I am shocked that students should be given this advice.

 

I realise that most ballerinas have small breasts but there are, now, several dancers in both the RB and ENB, including increasingly prominent ones, who have what I would regard as full busts.

 

 

I suppose it depends on the size of the bust and age of student.  I know it sounds shocking, but contracts are like hen's teeth really and I suppose anything seen as an impediment to that dancing career some would suggest had to be 'dealt with'.  Artistic Directors will have their own views. They may not make the truth known why a dancer hasn't been hired but they will know what body type / shape they want in the company.

 

There's a point when a jiggling bosom is uncomfortable for its owner, a distraction for an audience, and there are costume probs.

 

Those are actually the harsh realities. It's a tough world out there.  Talent helps but there are many with talent and only so many jobs.

 

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

 

 

[taxi4ballet]

13 hours ago, Graceful said:

This isn’t true. You can get funding for a second degree (limited Choice but it’s not true to say ‘they are stuffed’). You also can do an Open University degree with no A Levels and get funding for it (even though it’s classed as part time, you can finish it within 3 years). 
You can get funding for 4 years for your first degree. 

i just think it’s important to put that information out there. 

If someone has used up two years' student funding on one degree, then they can embark on an entirely different degree, but they only have two remaining years' worth of student loan available. The third year would have to be self-funded. Not all that many people have parents who can afford to support their dc for another three years, and find the money to pay for their final year on top. 

 

Yes, anyone can do Open University courses, but doing it within three years would be a pipe dream for most. Again, the question of funding and having to earn a living rears its ugly head.

[Kerfuffle]

20 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

If someone has used up two years' student funding on one degree, then they can embark on an entirely different degree, but they only have two remaining years' worth of student loan available. The third year would have to be self-funded. Not all that many people have parents who can afford to support their dc for another three years, and find the money to pay for their final year on top. 

 

Yes, anyone can do Open University courses, but doing it within three years would be a pipe dream for most. Again, the question of funding and having to earn a living rears its ugly head.

So does this also apply to those doing 2 years of a Dada Trinity diploma level 5 or 6? Would the best plan be to top it up to a degree and then take a sideways step into a related MA? Just thinking out loud. My brother did arts criticism MA after a fine art degree, then was a writer and curator. I guess that a dance graduate might be able to do something similar ? 

[Ondine]

3 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

My brother did arts criticism MA after a fine art degree, then was a writer and curator. I guess that a dance graduate might be able to do something similar ? 

 Yes, so long as the person with the first degree can find an MA to accept them that will fit their skills (some dance degrees appear to be mainly er... dancing and a very academic MA might not suit)  also again, funding.

 

 

 

 

[Kerfuffle]

A fine art degree is mostly practical although with some analysis involved so I guess not that different. I imagine having practical experience would enhance what critic’s observations. I would have thought that a good set of GCSEs would be proof of academic potential alongside. Would be interested to know if anyone’s DCs have tried this route. 

[Ondine]

 I know someone, good dancer, very bright with good GCSEs and decent A levels who graduated from a BA in dance (aged 18 to 21) to an MA in dance and then, after a lot of time spent volunteering while doing that became an archivist at a high ranking arts org (this isn't recent and some element of luck involved)  but it would very much depend on the student and the content of the BA. It possibly helps to have done that at an academic institution rather than a more vocational  school.  However, any place providing any sort of course is always in need of students who pay.

 

What that student does or doesn't do after that is often a matter of chance and determination and character.

 

I  know others who have made dance related careers, via winding routes,  but again, it's all often so very much luck and finding a niche and having someone to help you financially. Self confidence and the ability to self promote help too.

 

 

 

[Ondine]

4 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

Secondly, the issues described here, which are students experiences of the schools discussed in the Panorama program, stretch over many decades. Back to 1980.’s I think. Perhaps even further back.

 

Margot Fonteyn and her TWO nose jobs?

 

 

[Ballet Saga]

20 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

If someone has used up two years' student funding on one degree, then they can embark on an entirely different degree, but they only have two remaining years' worth of student loan available. The third year would have to be self-funded. Not all that many people have parents who can afford to support their dc for another three years, and find the money to pay for their final year on top. 

 

Yes, anyone can do Open University courses, but doing it within three years would be a pipe dream for most. Again, the question of funding and having to earn a living rears its ugly head.

This isn’t true at all. 
You can get 4 years and then you can even do a second degree (from a limited list) and get another 3 years funding. 
Please stop misinforming. 

[Ondine]

Many who do an MA have to self fund.

 

 

 

 

[Ballet Saga]

Just now, Ondine said:

Many who do an MA have to self fund.

 

 

 

 

You can get a government loan for an MA but you can only get that once. Undergraduate is a different system. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

From:

https://www.gov.uk/student-finance/who-qualifies
 

If you’ve studied before

You’ll usually only get student finance if you’re doing your first higher education qualification - even if your previous course was self-funded. You may still be eligible for limited funding in certain circumstances and for some courses.

 

If you already have a degree

You may be eligible for limited funding in certain circumstances.

You may get limited funding if you’re ‘topping up’ a higher education qualification, for example you’ve finished an HNC, HND or Foundation Degree and now want to do an Honours degree.

You may also get limited funding if you hold an Honours degree or a higher level of qualification and start a new course. This could be a part-time Honours degree, a joint Honours degree or an Integrated Master’s degree in one of the following (or 2 if it’s a joint Honours degree):

• agriculture and related subjects
• architecture (if it’s a MArch RIBA Part 2 course)
• biological sciences
• computer science
• mathematical sciences
• medicine and allied subjects
• physical sciences
• technologies
• courses leading to qualification as a veterinary surgeon

You could also be eligible if you’re starting a healthcare course on or after 1 August 2017.

[Ballet Saga]

18 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

From:

https://www.gov.uk/student-finance/who-qualifies
 

If you’ve studied before

You’ll usually only get student finance if you’re doing your first higher education qualification - even if your previous course was self-funded. You may still be eligible for limited funding in certain circumstances and for some courses.

 

If you already have a degree

You may be eligible for limited funding in certain circumstances.

You may get limited funding if you’re ‘topping up’ a higher education qualification, for example you’ve finished an HNC, HND or Foundation Degree and now want to do an Honours degree.

You may also get limited funding if you hold an Honours degree or a higher level of qualification and start a new course. This could be a part-time Honours degree, a joint Honours degree or an Integrated Master’s degree in one of the following (or 2 if it’s a joint Honours degree):

• agriculture and related subjects
• architecture (if it’s a MArch RIBA Part 2 course)
• biological sciences
• computer science
• mathematical sciences
• medicine and allied subjects
• physical sciences
• technologies
• courses leading to qualification as a veterinary surgeon

You could also be eligible if you’re starting a healthcare course on or after 1 August 2017.

This is correct and they don’t really make it very clear. It’s all maybes! 
I have very good experience of the process and my comments above are correct. 
I think it’s important to stop the ‘doom’ comments in their tracks. This just adds to the whole negativity of what happens if things don’t work out. 

[Kerfuffle]

6 minutes ago, Graceful said:

This is correct and they don’t really make it very clear. It’s all maybes! 
I have very good experience of the process and my comments above are correct. 
I think it’s important to stop the ‘doom’ comments in their tracks. This just adds to the whole negativity of what happens if things don’t work out. 

I agree, without negating any of the harm that has happened to some pupils in the past it’s important to stay positive, especially as a parent right now. 

[Jewel]

Graceful - you are the one mis-informing.  You cannot get 2 years funding on 1 degree and then transfer to another degree and get another 3 years worth of funding to complete that degree.  You simply cannot.

[Ballet Saga]

5 minutes ago, Jewel said:

Graceful - you are the one mis-informing.  You cannot get 2 years funding on 1 degree and then transfer to another degree and get another 3 years worth of funding to complete that degree.  You simply cannot.

Did I say that? 
 

You can finish a degree (and you can actually get 4 years of funding for a degree, even repeating a year). 

 

And you can do a second degree from the limited list that someone has posted above and have it fully funded. 
 

So no I’m not misinforming.