Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Bellaboo]

On 14/09/2023 at 20:44, Ballet.Parent said:

Talking of arrogance and a complete lack of sensitivity …Elmhurst have just posted photos on Twitter of their healthy meals as if to prove a point which I feel is just a big two fingers up to the brave students and parents who shared their story on Panorama. It’s not the food that’s the problem… it’s the way the children are made to feel if they eat it!

Yet a couple of years ago my child was prodded in the stomach after eating Lunch by a ballet teacher  and told ‘this is a problem’ she was 17 and 6 stone. This my dc had only just told me. She felt humiliated and caused much upset. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Bellaboo
Spelling

[windover60]

@BalletEnthusiast re whistleblowing number handing complaints back to Rbs - this was my fear- they will ‘disappear’ rather than be published, so not whistleblowing at all ! 

[taxi4ballet]

11 hours ago, Bellaboo said:

Yet a couple of years ago my child was prodded in the stomach after eating Lunch by a ballet teacher  and told ‘this is a problem’ she was 17 and 6 stone. This my dc had only just told me. She felt humiliated and caused much upset. 

Ah yes. The 'food baby'. 

[Kerfuffle]

20 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

I'm afraid although I think Watkins will do well, this interview repeated the cliche "real personalities that shine on stage". This has been said by numerous ADs of various companies over the last few decades. Also I think it a shame that in the provinces we are only offered Nutcracker. I don't particularly like that production and won't be buying tickets. However if they dared to tour the triple bill I would have rallied friends and bought several tickets.

I think what’s important is that there is a range of repertoire that also involves the dancers in innovation so they become fully involved in the creative process. I think it’s great that ENB perform both the classical and Akram Khan versions of Giselle. I am seeing Akram Khan in Bristol perhaps they are touring with this near you? 

[Pas de Quatre]

I saw it when first danced, and must admit I was not impressed.

[Kerfuffle]

I loved it and I’m seeing it again - but I can see it’s not to everyone’s taste which is why it’s great to have a wide repertoire in a company. 

[Emeralds]

On 15/09/2023 at 09:55, Anna C said:

BMI has been proven to be outdated and inaccurate.  Children and teenagers often gain weight and have increased appetite before a growth spurt, and this is completely normal.  

 

If, in the 21st century, Lower Schools do not understand that children’s bodies change during puberty, and support & reassure their students that everything happening to their body is normal, then nothing is going to change.  
 

Likewise, if a student is talented enough to get a place at Upper School, that same student should not be body shamed within the first week.  
 

 

Just going back to the BMI (body mass index) discussion, BMI is useless on athletes and dancers. Most full time ballet students, ie 11-18 year olds training seriously to dance as a career whether at a residential or non residential school, will be classed as underweight by a BMI chart. Those not classed as underweight because they are petite are not necessarily too heavy for ballet either. It really depends on the amount of muscle and the bone structure the dancer has. There are dancers who can look extremely thin who actually weigh more than dancers whom some directors/coaches might describe as being “too curvy” because they have more bone (which is genetically determined). The argument that a slightly heavier female dancer might be too heavy for her partner to lift is also incorrect as it’s more to do with the dancer’s technique and coordination with her partner and how much she helps with the lift. Of course, men also sometimes lift men in certain ballets/roles.

 

BMI literally just measures height and weight recorded on the scales and makes a judgement based on averages in a population. It is misleading when it comes to dancers and sportspeople at the top of their profession. Very fit, athletic and fast multiple Olympic gold medalists like Michael Phelps, Adam Peaty and Ian Thorpe would actually have been pronounced by a BMI chart as overweight at the time when they were winning gold medals! 

 

Anna C is also completely right about the changes adolescents’ bodies undergo during puberty. It is not just ill-advised to ask (let alone intimidate or bully) a child to lose weight during puberty but detrimental- and could have the exact opposite of making it harder to keep weight off in future, not to mention the increased risk of serious diseases such as heart disease. It’s of course a very different problem in very obese children and adolescents who must eat more healthily and lose weight to stay healthy, but no ballet student accepted after audition to a vocational school is even remotely obese, let alone very obese.

 

Any plan to ask a ballet student to lose weight should only be undertaken after discussion with a paediatrician and a paediatric dietician. It’s shocking to hear the stories the youngsters on the Panorama programme and File on 4 have told. Not just the bullying, but the amateur, unscientific  and frankly dangerous dieting instructions being doled out. 

 

I feel like the level of ignorance from the school staff (about health and the human body) is back to the 12th century when people still thought the Sun revolved around the Earth, and attitudes to children and ballet students were like the 1800s - “You are all children of the Tsar’s serfs, so you’re very lucky to be living here... you’ll do whatever we tell you to, and if we say skip meals you will do just that”. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Emeralds

[Out-the-other-side]

On 13/09/2023 at 10:27, Peanut68 said:

As an ex Elm from the 1980’s era a while back I thought it’d be interesting to see if there weee any ex alumni groups out there….found one on Facebook with a photo including recognised dancers  of my year group (clearly the mid 80’s in shiny catsuits & ankle warmers!!) 

The make of the group?

The Elmhurst Survivors….!!

says it all….

And I thought everyone but me was having a great experience there!! 

This group seems to have been removed from Facebook or perhaps just hidden? (Although a private group, it was always visible before) 

Does anyone have any idea what might have happened? I thought it might be a useful source of experiences to back up any future investigations. (Unless the name was unintentionally misleading) 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Out-the-other-side

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, Emeralds said:

Just going back to the BMI (body mass index) discussion, BMI is useless on athletes and dancers. Most full time ballet students, ie 11-18 year olds training seriously to dance as a career whether at a residential or non residential school, will be classed as underweight by a BMI chart. Those not classed as underweight because they are petite are not necessarily too heavy for ballet either. It really depends on the amount of muscle and the bone structure the dancer has. There are dancers who can look extremely thin who actually weigh more than dancers whom some directors/coaches might describe as being “too curvy” because they have more bone (which is genetically determined). The argument that a slightly heavier female dancer might be too heavy for her partner to lift is also incorrect as it’s more to do with the dancer’s technique and coordination with her partner and how much she helps with the lift. Of course, men also sometimes lift men in certain ballets/roles.

 

BMI literally just measures height and weight recorded on the scales and makes a judgement based on averages in a population. It is misleading when it comes to dancers and sportspeople at the top of their profession. Very fit, athletic and fast multiple Olympic gold medalists like Michael Phelps, Adam Peaty and Ian Thorpe would actually have been pronounced by a BMI chart as overweight at the time when they were winning gold medals! 

 

Anna C is also completely right about the changes adolescents’ bodies undergo during puberty. It is not just ill-advised to ask (let alone intimidate or bully) a child to lose weight during puberty but detrimental- and could have the exact opposite of making it harder to keep weight off in future, not to mention the increased risk of serious diseases such as heart disease. It’s of course a very different problem in very obese children and adolescents who must eat more healthily and lose weight to stay healthy, but no ballet student accepted after audition to a vocational school is even remotely obese, let alone very obese.

 

Any plan to ask a ballet student to lose weight should only be undertaken after discussion with a paediatrician and a paediatric dietician. It’s shocking to hear the stories the youngsters on the Panorama programme and File on 4 have told. Not just the bullying, but the amateur, unscientific  and frankly dangerous dieting instructions being doled out. 

 

I feel like the level of ignorance from the school staff (about health and the human body) is back to the 12th century when people still thought the Sun revolved around the Earth, and attitudes to children and ballet students were like the 1800s - “You are all children of the Tsar’s serfs, so you’re very lucky to be living here... you’ll do whatever we tell you to, and if we say skip meals you will do just that”. 

Although I’ve been super critical of certain aspects of the experience at one of the mentioned schools, I do want to make the point that as regards the messages coming from the health team surrounding diet and nutrition, it was extremely positive and helpful. My dd was super well informed as a result, and this information will serve her well in the future I’m sure. 
It was the subliminal messages regarding assessments, the intense pressure accompanying those assessment’s and the results of the assessments that led her to make her own conclusions about what was desirable. At no time was she ever body shamed or witnessed it happening to others  although obviously that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

 

[Emeralds]

52 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Although I’ve been super critical of certain aspects of the experience at one of the mentioned schools, I do want to make the point that as regards the messages coming from the health team surrounding diet and nutrition, it was extremely positive and helpful. My dd was super well informed as a result, and this information will serve her well in the future I’m sure. 
It was the subliminal messages regarding assessments, the intense pressure accompanying those assessment’s and the results of the assessments that led her to make her own conclusions about what was desirable. At no time was she ever body shamed or witnessed it happening to others  although obviously that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

 

I’m glad your dd had a good experience, Ruby. It sounds like she was thought to be one of the “Fine” ones who never got the negative treatment the students on the Panorama and File on 4 programmes did. 

 

Unfortunately it is quite a common pattern among directors with bullying/intimidating tactics to do just that: separate his or her charges into two groups - the “good” group that according to him/her looks fine, has talent, produces the results they want, looks the way they like them to look, and an “undesirable” group who has one or more traits he/she doesn’t like: eg the “wrong” appearance, or doesn’t produce the results or kind of dancing they want, but has enough talent such that he/she can’t get rid of them just yet. With the “good group” such directors can be Dr Jekyll and sweet, supportive, perfect; behind closed doors or what they think are closed doors  they can be Mr Hyde to those they think don’t measure up. A good director or principal should be Dr Jekyll to all, and equally patient, supportive and encouraging to all- that’s what a teacher, principal or director should be in any field or any school. So if your dd was thought to have ticked all the right boxes in their opinion, that’s why she had positive treatment.  

 

You've hit the nail on the head with regard to the work of the health team - all good health teams will give proper diet and nutrition information. And I suspect that is why none of the students who were body shamed or bullied to lose weight described having a dietician or doctor in the meetings where they were body shamed- probably because the dietician and the doctor would have taken the student’s side and objected to the instruction to lose weight! In fact, one student did describe going to see the school nutritionist who said her diet was healthy....meaning there was no more scope for her to lose any more weight. And hence she should never have been told to lose weight in the first place.

 

I'm perplexed by why the schools are asking very young students to lose weight. At 12 to 15 they are not due to look for a job. Nature will take its course. Is it just so that they will look thin at the end of year school performance? I would be more worried to see so many thin lower school children in the defilé- that’s unnatural and not at all normal. 

 

There are examples of two famous ballerinas from the Mariinsky (then called the Kirov) who in their teens were a little more full figured than when they became principal dancers. Early photos of them reminded me of some of the photos of the students in the programme when the schools pronounced them “too heavy”. They didn’t get “assessed out”- I don’t know if the Vaganova School connected to the Mariinsky/Kirov ever did that- in fact they were offered jobs with the company. Who are they? - Natalia Makarova and Altynai Asylmuratova. Both legends. Imagine if they got asked to leave the school! The directors clearly saw the talent they had and were patient, and they did become more slender as they grew older (granted they weren’t overweight to begin with- neither were these students). 

 

 

[Aurora3]

I listened to this podcast. But I think, you have to take into consideration that it is quite common for girls at this age that they are dissatisfied with their bodies and offended by everything they hear, no matter whether they are at a professional school or not!

[Out-the-other-side]

8 minutes ago, Aurora3 said:

I listened to this podcast. But I think, you have to take into consideration that it is quite common for girls at this age that they are dissatisfied with their bodies and offended by everything they hear, no matter whether they are at a professional school or not!

The issue is that for many they are not offended by what they hear -  they believe it, internalise it and  carry it as emotional baggage for many years to come.

[Anna C]

16 hours ago, Aurora3 said:

I listened to this podcast. But I think, you have to take into consideration that it is quite common for girls at this age that they are dissatisfied with their bodies and offended by everything they hear, no matter whether they are at a professional school or not!

There’s a huge difference between being “dissatisfied with your body”/“offended” and being shamed, bullied, and even abused for physical attributes that are often out of your control.  And having to stare at yourself in mirrors, day in, day out, comparing yourself to others (and that comparison being continued by teachers).
 

As for being “offended by anything they hear”, maybe what’s being said to them IS offensive. 
 

Just because teenagers are already insecure, ballet teachers weaponising that insecurity against students is wholly unacceptable.
 

 

[Peanut68]

Just a thought I’ve had for a while….

I do see value in Mirrors in dance studios to help with understanding placement/corrections etc but I do question them being a constant presence. Maybe studios should have curtain options to have occasional mirror free lessons?

Our local school pull curtains across mirrors a few weeks before exams & for exam sessions too. This does also show who truly does know syllabus as it is very easy to cheat look across & see others in mirrors for steps etc. And right from primary kids do increasingly seem to be aware of how they look & how they compare & - sadly - they do all see ‘perfection’ online etc & you see pouting & preening from a really early age! 
For older dancers again no mirrors force them to truly learn for themselves & not rely on others so much & it stops some of their pouting & preening & constant leotard leg line hiking up (!!) too.

And also draws the facial expressions to be more inclusive & reflective of performing for an audience & not just to themselves! It also free dancers up to truly ‘let go’ & allow their joy in their own dance to fly! Less playing subservience to the best dancer in the class too!
I’d think a 50/50 split mirrors/no mirror would be hugely beneficial in very many ways! 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Peanut68

[Neverdancedjustamum]

4 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Just a thought I’ve had for a while….

I do see value in Mirrors in dance studios to help with understanding placement/corrections etc but I do question them being a constant presence. Maybe studios should have curtain options to have occasional mirror free lessons?

Our local school pull curtains across mirrors a few weeks before exams & for exam sessions too. This does also show who truly does know syllabus as it is very easy to cheat look across & see others in mirrors for steps etc. And right from primary kids do increasingly seem to be aware of how they look & how they compare & - sadly - they do all see ‘perfection’ online etc & you see pouting & preening from a really early age! 
For older dancers again no mirrors force them to truly learn for themselves & not rely on others so much & it stops some of their pouting & preening & constant leotard leg line hiking up (!!) too.

And also draws the facial expressions to be more inclusive & reflective of performing for an audience & not just to themselves! It also free dancers up to truly ‘let go’ & allow their joy in their own dance to fly! Less playing subservience to the best dancer in the class too!
I’d think a 50/50 split mirrors/no mirror would be hugely beneficial in very many ways! 

 

I would agree with the 50/50 split or the curtains over mirror option but my DD spent a few years in a dance school with no mirrors (the quintessential British local ballet class in a church/school hall).  During her classes where she’s in a proper studio with mirrors, teachers often have to remind her to check the mirror to see if her placement or posture etc looks correct so I do think there’s value to having mirrors. This probably would depend on the age of the child too. The older they are, the more in tune they are with their bodies and they know how it ‘feels’ like if their placement etc is correct and they don’t need the visual cues as much. 

[taxi4ballet]

12 hours ago, Aurora3 said:

I listened to this podcast. But I think, you have to take into consideration that it is quite common for girls at this age that they are dissatisfied with their bodies and offended by everything they hear, no matter whether they are at a professional school or not!

Offended, no. Self-conscious and hyper-aware of the changes in their bodies, yes. A seemingly throwaway remark thoughtlessly made can, and often is, taken to heart and never forgotten.

 

All dance teachers should know about that. All the more reason for them to avoid criticising the bodies of growing adolescents at what is a highly-charged hormonal time for all teenagers.

[Pas de Quatre]

Re mirrors. You don't have them for performances or exams, so they shouldn't be used all the time. In fact I blame everyone peering at themselves in mirrors for the loss of épaulment, head position and eyeline, together with other nuances in today's dancers.

 

Students mishearing or misinterpreting is unfortunately quite common. Years ago I had a young teenage pupil and at the end of the exam practice, to encourage her, I said that I thought she would get a nice surprise with her exam result.  This was reported to mum as "Miss X thinks I am going to fail!" Luckily said mum knew I would never say such a thing and rang me immediately, so it all ended happily. But it taught me a valuable lesson.

[taxi4ballet]

21 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Students mishearing or misinterpreting is unfortunately quite common. Years ago I had a young teenage pupil and at the end of the exam practice, to encourage her, I said that I thought she would get a nice surprise with her exam result.  This was reported to mum as "Miss X thinks I am going to fail!" Luckily said mum knew I would never say such a thing and rang me immediately, so it all ended happily. But it taught me a valuable lesson.

Oh this!

 

It didn't come out until quite recently, when dd and I were discussing her early dance training. Someone once told my dd in my presence that she had "huge potential".

 

My dd, who was about 11 at the time, did not understand what the teacher was really saying. She took it to mean that she wasn't very good, but if she worked really hard then she could get better. No wonder she had confidence issues...

[LinMM]

In the Performances seen thread where there is a discussion of whether we should support Ballet after this programme ( of course we should!) 

I see that Susie Crow has now commented herself and given a link to her article in Oxford Writers for Dancing ….an article in response to the Panorama programme I mentioned earlier in this thread …so please do give this a read and then any comments about this can be made on that thread directly to her etc. 

 

Re mirrors I only ever use them statically ….never once actually dancing…to just check certain positions occasionally …I’m dismayed …for example …at how often the back leg isn’t extended as much as I think it is in tendu…or the back arm is too low or too high……so then I correct and try to memorise the feeling of the better position. so mirrors are useful sometimes but I always try to go for the feeling in the body. 
My favourite place at the barre at City Lit is right at the end on one side of the room as the mirrors on the opposite wall don’t quite reach that far!! I can be quite possessive about this barre place because of this…..an incentive to be in the room early lol!! 
 

Edited September 18, 2023 by LinMM

[Ruby Foo]

16 hours ago, Emeralds said:

I’m glad your dd had a good experience, Ruby. It sounds like she was thought to be one of the “Fine” ones who never got the negative treatment the students on the Panorama and File on 4 programmes did. 

 

Unfortunately it is quite a common pattern among directors with bullying/intimidating tactics to do just that: separate his or her charges into two groups - the “good” group that according to him/her looks fine, has talent, produces the results they want, looks the way they like them to look, and an “undesirable” group who has one or more traits he/she doesn’t like: eg the “wrong” appearance, or doesn’t produce the results or kind of dancing they want, but has enough talent such that he/she can’t get rid of them just yet. With the “good group” such directors can be Dr Jekyll and sweet, supportive, perfect; behind closed doors or what they think are closed doors  they can be Mr Hyde to those they think don’t measure up. A good director or principal should be Dr Jekyll to all, and equally patient, supportive and encouraging to all- that’s what a teacher, principal or director should be in any field or any school. So if your dd was thought to have ticked all the right boxes in their opinion, that’s why she had positive treatment.  

 

You've hit the nail on the head with regard to the work of the health team - all good health teams will give proper diet and nutrition information. And I suspect that is why none of the students who were body shamed or bullied to lose weight described having a dietician or doctor in the meetings where they were body shamed- probably because the dietician and the doctor would have taken the student’s side and objected to the instruction to lose weight! In fact, one student did describe going to see the school nutritionist who said her diet was healthy....meaning there was no more scope for her to lose any more weight. And hence she should never have been told to lose weight in the first place.

 

I'm perplexed by why the schools are asking very young students to lose weight. At 12 to 15 they are not due to look for a job. Nature will take its course. Is it just so that they will look thin at the end of year school performance? I would be more worried to see so many thin lower school children in the defilé- that’s unnatural and not at all normal. 

 

There are examples of two famous ballerinas from the Mariinsky (then called the Kirov) who in their teens were a little more full figured than when they became principal dancers. Early photos of them reminded me of some of the photos of the students in the programme when the schools pronounced them “too heavy”. They didn’t get “assessed out”- I don’t know if the Vaganova School connected to the Mariinsky/Kirov ever did that- in fact they were offered jobs with the company. Who are they? - Natalia Makarova and Altynai Asylmuratova. Both legends. Imagine if they got asked to leave the school! The directors clearly saw the talent they had and were patient, and they did become more slender as they grew older (granted they weren’t overweight to begin with- neither were these students). 

 

 

Perhaps you haven’t seen my previous posts Emeralds.

My dd obviously didn’t tick any of the right boxes!

She was assessed out after a year of verbal abuse that literally crushed her.

As I said before in another post that was shut down, she cried every day that year and more than in the whole of her 17yrs. At one point the teacher in question put a line of 6 girls in 1st cast, a line of 6 girls in 2nd cast and then sniggered to my daughter that ‘ ‘oh dear, looks like you’ll need to be in 3rd cast won’t you?’ Picked up her bag and left the room. There was no 3rd cast. It was a completely unnecessary comment to undermine her already non existent confidence. She was broken that night. Not because she wasn’t good enough to be in the performance but because of the underhand nastiness, the lack of helpful communication. What help was that comment? It did not help her gain more strength/ improve her technique/ gain more artistry. What it did do was humiliate and belittle her. The teacher bullied her in every class for a whole year ( from 3rd week in Upper School) because she was frustrated that my dd was not good enough. The teacher told me she did not have a good body for Classical Ballet. Having been accepted for Upper School, this was fairly concerning.

None of this was to do with weight or physical appearance and I stand by my previous post that the messages  she was receiving regarding that subject were extremely positive. 
 
I do, however completely take your point that a ‘rogue’ teacher, ( I have described one above) who is not part of the health team and not on board with the positive policies of the School

can simply cause the worst damage imaginable with their words.

 

[Richard LH]

3 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

Oh this!

 

It didn't come out until quite recently, when dd and I were discussing her early dance training. Someone once told my dd in my presence that she had "huge potential".

 

My dd, who was about 11 at the time, did not understand what the teacher was really saying. She took it to mean that she wasn't very good, but if she worked really hard then she could get better. No wonder she had confidence issues...

I would hope that misunderstandings about teacher feedback could be largely avoided if students/parents are encouraged and enabled to ask for clarification if something said, or written,  is not clear. Maybe easier said than done in some cases of course.

[Ruby Foo]

25 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

I would hope that misunderstandings about teacher feedback could be largely avoided if students/parents are encouraged and enabled to ask for clarification if something said, or written,  is not clear. Maybe easier said than done in some cases of course.

This was the clarification Richard. 
That her body was ‘ very difficult’ for classical ballet. If you have an explanation for the clarification then do please let me know. Because personally that clarification took me 2 weeks of asking, to obtain and left us feeling extremely angry and confused. We are talking about the Royal Ballet School. She had been previously training there for three years.

[Dancing_shoes]

After many years being in the dark I can say that my child's experience with YDA was awful my child was picked on every day by the teachers and the principal Anna also she made a comment once about taking a child into her school and said that the child had no talent but she will just take them for the money. My child was forced by one of the teachers to dance with a pointe shoe ribbon coming of their pointe shoe they asked if they could change into their flat shoes and she shouted at my child and said no and they could of broke there foot. All the teachers and the academic staff were really rude and disrespectful I wouldn’t recommend this school to anyone.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Dancing_shoes

[taxi4ballet]

1 hour ago, Richard LH said:

I would hope that misunderstandings about teacher feedback could be largely avoided if students/parents are encouraged and enabled to ask for clarification if something said, or written,  is not clear. Maybe easier said than done in some cases of course.

Oh really? Well you can only ask for clarification if you know there is a misunderstanding to be cleared up in the first place!

 

What the teacher said to us was as clear as day. As clear as it could possibly be. Except my dd, at that age, did not quite grasp what the word 'potential' meant.

 

She told my dd that she had huge potential to be a really good dancer. If someone told your child that, and you actually heard them say it so there was no mistaking the words, what would you think? Would you automatically know that your child would believe the teacher was telling them they were currently pretty useless but would improve with hard work? No you wouldn't.

 

My child had just been told that she was really good and had the ability to become outstanding. How was I supposed to know that my dd didn't understand what 'potential' meant, and had misinterpreted it? 

 

[Richard LH]

2 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

This was the clarification Richard. 
That her body was ‘ very difficult’ for classical ballet. If you have an explanation for the clarification then do please let me know. Because personally that clarification took me 2 weeks of asking, to obtain and left us feeling extremely angry and confused. We are talking about the Royal Ballet School. She had been previously training there for three years.

Ruby I was remarking in general terms  on the sort of unfortunate misunderstandings that students can make, as  referred to by @taxi4ballet and earlier by @Pas de Quatre...the sort of thing which one would hope might be relatively easy to resolve, provided (as @taxi4ballet points out) it  is known to have arisen in the first place!

I didn't have your case in mind in that context -  I gathered there was no such  "misunderstanding" behind the traumatic and unacceptable treatment you have described in responding to the recent post from @Emeralds

Edited September 18, 2023 by Richard LH

[LukeJennings]

Can things change at the schools? Will they?

My thoughts on the wider implications of all this:

 

https://thirdcast.wordpress.com/2023/09/19/if-i-had-a-knife/

 

[Dance*is*life]

My sister gave me a pile of letters I had written to her from the sixties, when I was at RBS upper school.  They are very revealing, particularly the fact that I was obsessed with watching my weight, as I was weighed every week by the nurse.  However, they were also full of comments about fantastic classes and little technical achievements, which offset the disappointments that came along with lesser casting etc.  I don't remember being belittled in any way, but maybe I was but the remarks washed off my back!    I do know that they wrote in my acceptance letter that they had noticed some physical problems, which might preclude me from getting into the company, but they still accepted me.  I used to come in the top three or four of my test classes, but as they had warned, didn't get into the company.  My dream had always been to go to RBS and I feel that my training there was a significant part of my dance journey.  Of course, the fact that I lived at home and had a very close and open relationship with my parents was a bonus, I think, because I was less vulnerable.  I haven't been able to watch the programme, but I can see for myself that the modern day expectations of physique and technique can't be compared to what they were in my day.  If you look at old films you can see the difference in the "look" of the dancers.   As a ballet teacher for some 40 years, and a grandmother, I think I understand how teenagers feel and react.  It's a tough world - ballet, gymnastics - anything that requires a certain physique.  So tragic how children were treated so negatively instead of being in  a nurturing environment.

[LinMM]

Have you seen the piccie here …in Ballet news thread I think….posted for Monica Masons 82nd birthday the other day? There’s a picture of a young Monica with several other dancers ( you might be able to identify them perhaps?) and they do look very different to todays dancers. 

[littledancer99]

4 hours ago, LukeJennings said:

Can things change at the schools? Will they?

My thoughts on the wider implications of all this:

 

https://thirdcast.wordpress.com/2023/09/19/if-i-had-a-knife/

 

Brilliant !

[Dance*is*life]

LinMM - 

 

I'm some years younger than Monica Mason. I was at school with Wayne Sleep, Alan Hooper, Marguerite Porter, Georgina Sibley among others.  I actually owe a great deal to my teacher,  Barbara Fewster.  She kept on and on about my extreme shortsight, because it really was affecting my dancing - for example I couldn't see anything to focus on in pirouettes 🥴  She pushed me to get contact lenses, which were quite a new thing then.  They transformed my life!!   Before I got them I would wave back randomly at people walking in the school corridors, only when I got nearer I'd realise that it was Fonteyn waving at a dancer walking behind me!   

 

Sorry I digress from this very serious subject, but yes you're right the bodies were different then and so was the technique. There wasn't the athleticism and "tricks" that are expected today, although that is not to say that the ballerinas weren't brilliant.  Nerina could balance the Rose Adagio like few I've seen since, Beriosova had beautiful extensions, Seymour was

an incredible actress as well as having strong technique and then there was Fonteyn......  I saw her live in Ondine and she was exquisite.   Yet somehow there wasn't the clone look of nowadays. All the dancers were so different, but they had such artistic quality.  

[Aurora3]

On 18/09/2023 at 10:14, Anna C said:

There’s a huge difference between being “dissatisfied with your body”/“offended” and being shamed, bullied, and even abused for physical attributes that are often out of your control.  And having to stare at yourself in mirrors, day in, day out, comparing yourself to others (and that comparison being continued by teachers).
 

As for being “offended by anything they hear”, maybe what’s being said to them IS offensive. 
 

Just because teenagers are already insecure, ballet teachers weaponising that insecurity against students is wholly unacceptable.
 

 

I don´t say it is good if any teacher offends on purpose anyone, in a nomal school or a Vacational school! Nonetheless, any teenager sonetimes hears or reads something and is offended by that! At that age, girls are often mean to each other and also often misunderstand others! And they think anything they hear refers to themselves... I think you all know such situations!

[taxi4ballet]

4 hours ago, Aurora3 said:

I don´t say it is good if any teacher offends on purpose anyone, in a nomal school or a Vacational school! Nonetheless, any teenager sonetimes hears or reads something and is offended by that! At that age, girls are often mean to each other and also often misunderstand others! And they think anything they hear refers to themselves... I think you all know such situations!

According to my dictionary, 'offended' means to feel resentment or annoyance, typically as a result of a perceived insult.

 

It is not the right word to describe how girls (and boys too) feel when someone criticises their appearance or tells them they are overweight.

 

They are far more likely to feel hurt, distress or embarrassment, and to take those remarks to heart, particularly when the person saying it is their ballet teacher. The young person will often then lose confidence in themselves, and may sometimes try to do something about 'the problem', such as restricting their food intake to an unhealthy degree in order to lose weight.

 

This issue at vocational schools is not about the unkind things that teenagers say to one another. It is about the appalling disregard that some staff at vocational schools have for the physical and mental wellbeing of the young people in their care.

 

[Pas de Quatre]

In the Panorama and radio broadcasts some of the students did say that they felt watched and judged by all the other students. Ellen E highlighted a moment when she returned to RBS after battling glandular fever and received a round of applause. Because she had lost more weight through the illness, at that time she took it to be approval for that, and it reinforced her resolve to lose more. Now she admits she may have misinterpreted, and it was just to welcome her back.