No Coronation Gala?

[Ondine]

'Cherrytoes' herself!

 

 

https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O60542/fanny-cerrito-as-ondine-in-painting-g-a-turner/

 

 

 

Yes I think it could be revived, if done carefully.  New staging etc?

 

 

[FLOSS]

Ashton's gifts to specific beneficiaries seems to have been motivated by sentiment  rather than economic  considerations. In each case the beneficiaries received ballets that meant a great deal to the choreographer and the former dancer who was given them.The bulk of the ballets passed to Ashton's nephew who told an LBC meeting held in the late 1990's that he was reluctant to press for the performance of the ballets which he owned while he was working for the company.Of course whether or not specific ballets were revived may have been influenced in part by the energy with which individual owners pressed for the revival of their ballets but the likelihood of their revival will also have been influenced by how "old fashioned" individual works were perceived to be. The audience at the LBC meeting which I have already referred to was told that a  proposed revival of Jazz Calendar, which resembles Facade in its structure and contains a visual reference to Sunday Night at the London Palladium,had been rejected on the grounds that the work was too old fashioned to appeal to modern audiences.

 

 Daphnis and Chloe was not neglected at first. It was revived in 1994 in new classically based designs which all but killed its theatrical effectiveness since the whole idea behind the work and its Craxton designs had been to set the action of the ballet in a Greece in which the old gods were still powerful. In other words the intention was to set it in the pre-package  holiday Greece which Ashton and Craxton had encountered in the years immediately after the war The ballet was danced in its 1994 designs during the 94/95 season and the 96/97 season after which it was dropped. I have always suspected that it was dropped when the company finally realised how much it cost to stage a revival of it. 

 

Other significant factors in the marginalisation of Ashton and the neglect of the Ashton repertory include the conscious decision made soon after Ashton's death to give more stage time to MacMillan's ballets  because he was capable of producing new works  for the company; the   recruitment of more obviously athletic dancers who had difficulty with Ashton's choreography because they had not been trained in the school and were attracted to the company by the MacMilan dramballets ; reduced concern with musicality; the myth of "improved technique" and a shift in aesthetics  from understatement and the use of steps, epaulement and gestures to create character and give meaning to a more immediately accessible aesthetic of displaying  technique in which music is adjusted to meet the dancer's needs rather than governing the dancer's actions.

 

Of course both Ondine and Daphnis and Chloe should be revived while the company actually has at least one dancer who could do justice to the roles created on Fonteyn. Unfortunately I fear that if they were to be revived in the next couple of years that we should be faced with a first cast led by Nunez and Muntagirov neither of whom would be ideal or make an adequate case for the ballets  being retained in the repertory, For me the dancer most able to act as a compelling advocate for the ballerina roles in these ballets is Hayward who dances Ashton  idiomatically with either Bracewell or Ball in the Somes' roles.

 

[Emeralds]

2 hours ago, Emeralds said:

 

 

The only problem with Ondine is that the rest of the ballet when Ondine herself isn’t on stage can feel like it drags on if not performed with authority and commitment.....mainly because the Henze score is quite twentieth century and quirky which occasionally seems a bit incongruous with its 19th century history (like Two Pigeons and Fille, Ondine was inspired by an earlier original version - the Romantic Era ballet made for Fanny Cerrito which also had a dance with Ondine’s shadow, the original musoí). I think the shadow dance solo and pas de deux for Ondine and Palemon could easily be done as standalone gala excerpts more often. But I’d be happy to see the full length ballet revived and I’d go to a few casts.  😊👍

Typo: “which also had a dance with Ondine’s shadow).  I think the shadow dance”

 

(I’m not sure what happened there after “shadow”! My tech has a mind of its own sometimes.) 

[Ondine]

FLOSS: I agree with every word. Though I do feel Muntigirov has more in him than he's often given to do. Sad he's spending so much time guesting elsewhere.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Ondine

[Ondine]

5 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

Typo: “which also had a dance with Ondine’s shadow).  I think the shadow dance”

 

(I’m not sure what happened there after “shadow”! My tech has a mind of its own sometimes.) 

 

 Fanny Cerrito as Ondine in the Pas de l’Ombre (1843)

 

 

I'm a sucker for these lithographs!

[Benjamin]

10 hours ago, oncnp said:

 

The King's cypher is quite different so more to it than that

 

CR? Can’t the cut the crown?

[Benjamin]

2 minutes ago, Benjamin said:

CR? Can’t the cut the crown?

I don’t know how they would fit the full thing on this tiny area? I know it’s a bit more than 2 letters but would (at least Roh) oversimplify it, they should keeps the same format, right?

[Guest oncnp]

5 minutes ago, Benjamin said:

I don’t know how they would fit the full thing on this tiny area? I know it’s a bit more than 2 letters but would (at least Roh) oversimplify it, they should keeps the same format, right?

 

Fit is irrelevant at this point as the King doesn't want it changed.  

[capybara]

10 hours ago, Ondine said:

FLOSS: I agree with every word. Though I do feel Muntigirov has more in him than he's often given to do. Sad he's spending so much time guesting elsewhere.

……. as Muntagirov’s Rudolf demonstrated in spades!

And the reason so many RB dancers (especially Principals), including him, are appearing elsewhere these days is that they do not have enough performances here. But I must beware of sounding like a worn record on that subject!

[Benjamin]

10 hours ago, oncnp said:

 

Fit is irrelevant at this point as the King doesn't want it changed.  

Yes, but this conversation was about if he wanted it changed.

[Benjamin]

10 hours ago, Ondine said:

FLOSS: I agree with every word. Though I do feel Muntigirov has more in him than he's often given to do. Sad he's spending so much time guesting elsewhere.

 

 

 

But good for the rest of the world.

[San Perregrino]

12 hours ago, Ondine said:

FLOSS: I agree with every word. Though I do feel Muntigirov has more in him than he's often given to do. Sad he's spending so much time guesting elsewhere.

 

 

 

i thought that it was Vadims choice not to dance modern choreography? 

[bangorballetboy]

1 hour ago, Benjamin said:

Yes, but this conversation was about if he wanted it changed.

 

To be frank, I don't think it was.  

[Benjamin]

46 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said:

 

To be frank, I don't think it was.  

Oh well then no. Thanks for correcting me. I’m not great at this.

[capybara]

14 hours ago, FLOSS said:

Ashton's gifts to specific beneficiaries seems to have been motivated by sentiment  rather than economic  considerations. In each case the beneficiaries received ballets that meant a great deal to the choreographer and the former dancer who was given them.The bulk of the ballets passed to Ashton's nephew who told an LBC meeting held in the late 1990's that he was reluctant to press for the performance of the ballets which he owned while he was working for the company.Of course whether or not specific ballets were revived may have been influenced in part by the energy with which individual owners pressed for the revival of their ballets but the likelihood of their revival will also have been influenced by how "old fashioned" individual works were perceived to be. The audience at the LBC meeting which I have already referred to was told that a  proposed revival of Jazz Calendar, which resembles Facade in its structure and contains a visual reference to Sunday Night at the London Palladium,had been rejected on the grounds that the work was too old fashioned to appeal to modern audiences.

 

 Daphnis and Chloe was not neglected at first. It was revived in 1994 in new classically based designs which all but killed its theatrical effectiveness since the whole idea behind the work and its Craxton designs had been to set the action of the ballet in a Greece in which the old gods were still powerful. In other words the intention was to set it in the pre-package  holiday Greece which Ashton and Craxton had encountered in the years immediately after the war The ballet was danced in its 1994 designs during the 94/95 season and the 96/97 season after which it was dropped. I have always suspected that it was dropped when the company finally realised how much it cost to stage a revival of it. 

 

Other significant factors in the marginalisation of Ashton and the neglect of the Ashton repertory include the conscious decision made soon after Ashton's death to give more stage time to MacMillan's ballets  because he was capable of producing new works  for the company; the   recruitment of more obviously athletic dancers who had difficulty with Ashton's choreography because they had not been trained in the school and were attracted to the company by the MacMilan dramballets ; reduced concern with musicality; the myth of "improved technique" and a shift in aesthetics  from understatement and the use of steps, epaulement and gestures to create character and give meaning to a more immediately accessible aesthetic of displaying  technique in which music is adjusted to meet the dancer's needs rather than governing the dancer's actions.

 

Of course both Ondine and Daphnis and Chloe should be revived while the company actually has at least one dancer who could do justice to the roles created on Fonteyn. Unfortunately I fear that if they were to be revived in the next couple of years that we should be faced with a first cast led by Nunez and Muntagirov neither of whom would be ideal or make an adequate case for the ballets  being retained in the repertory, For me the dancer most able to act as a compelling advocate for the ballerina roles in these ballets is Hayward who dances Ashton  idiomatically with either Bracewell or Ball in the Somes' roles.

 

 

FLOSS - I appreciate your knowledgeable posts but I wish you could find it in your heart to be a little more generous to the dancers of today.

I was 'around' a very long time ago too and I recall being at some seriously under par performances as well as glorious ones which are for ever etched in my memory. Nothing in life can stand still and I prefer to enjoy what is before me now (a very great deal) rather than hankering for days and artists gone by.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by capybara

[Mary]

3 hours ago, capybara said:

……. as Muntagirov’s Rudolf demonstrated in spades!

And the reason so many RB dancers (especially Principals), including him, are appearing elsewhere these days is that they do not have enough performances here. But I must beware of sounding like a worn record on that subject!

He was wonderful and deepy touching in A Month in the Country as many on here have said repeatedly, and also in Two Pigeons, and buoyant and funny in Fille,( his 'bottles' dance is etched on my memory )-  - I agree it's a question of opportunity much more than some innate inclination.

I for one would be delighted to go to the first nights of Ondine, Sylvia, D&C and all the rest with Muntagirov/ Nunez- and also delighted to see other casts.

 

[Lizbie1]

26 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

FLOSS - I appreciate your knowledgeable posts but I wish you could find it in your heart to be a little more generous to the dancers of today.

I was 'around' a very long time ago too and I recall being at some seriously under par performances as well as glorious ones which are for ever etched in my memory. Nothing in life can stand still and I prefer to enjoy what is before me now (a very great deal) rather than hankering for days and artists gone by.

 

I think we sometimes short-change Ashton himself on this forum by unintentionally suggesting that some of his works are only effective when given truly idiomatic performances. Obviously we'd all like that to to be the norm and it's preferable for his original intentions and nuance to be brought out, but Ashton found something interesting in dancers with a wide variety of backgrounds, and in turn I've seen dancers of various backgrounds delight audiences in Ashton.

[Balletfanp]

Muntagirov is very much more than just a technician. Obviously different people see different things in different dancers, but he has danced so many performances (some listed above) that demonstrate his considerable acting abilities along with his undisputed dancing prowess and which gave a lot of pleasure to many people. I for one am always delighted to see him as he often brings something very different and unexpected to a role - witness his Rudolf, that made me see the whole ballet (not previously one I was keen on) in a completely different light.

 

He might not have been trained in the Ashton tradition, but as @capybara says above, nothing can stand still, and there have been performances to treasure, not just from Muntagirov, but from other dancers in the company. Purists are entitled not to enjoy them, but many others will (and do!). I find it very sad to see the constant and detrimental comparisons of today’s wonderful dancers to “the good old days” when in fact today’s dancers bring something new and equally good in different ways to the table.

[Sim]

Mungtagirov also knocked me for six in Winter Dreams. I never liked that ballet until I saw him dance it.  

[Balletfanp]

Yes! One of my never-to-be-forgotten performances…..

[bangorballetboy]

26 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

I think we sometimes short-change Ashton himself on this forum by unintentionally suggesting that some of his works are only effective when given truly idiomatic performances. Obviously we'd all like that to to be the norm and it's preferable for his original intentions and nuance to be brought out, but Ashton found something interesting in dancers with a wide variety of backgrounds, and in turn I've seen dancers of various backgrounds delight audiences in Ashton.

 

Exactly.  I wouldn't have said that Osipova's recent Cinderella performances were overly "Ashtonian" but they were incredibly entertaining nonetheless.

[LinMM]

Muntagirov would definitely not be a problem in Ashton works for me but would love to see him partnered with Hayward or Kaneko or Takada on occasions. No disrespect to Naghdi as she is a wonderful dancer too but I think is best in very classical or more modern pieces though would love to see her surprise me in a very Ashton type role. I’m pretty sure she was in one of the couples who I saw in Two Pigeons last time around but it was Stix Brunell who moved me to tears back then. Stix Brunell is a great loss to the Company though am glad she is doing so well in her new non ballet life ….apparently! 
Also I agree with Capybara that you do have to move on. It’s a wonderful position to be in to be able to cherish certain past performances but also be very moved or excited by current performances and dancers. 
As I said above for example I don’t see Naghdi as a particularly “Ashtonian” dancer but would love to be proved wrong if say Ondine were to be revived ( can’t see it will myself) and she proved to be terrific in it. I love seeing dancers developments as Muntagirov proved in Month in the Country…one of the best performances I’ve seen though still cherish the memory of the very first cast in this ballet. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by LinMM

[EVWS]

40 minutes ago, Balletfanp said:

Purists are entitled not to enjoy them, but many others will (and do!). I find it very sad to see the constant and detrimental comparisons of today’s wonderful dancers to “the good old days” when in fact today’s dancers bring something new and equally good in different ways to the table.

 

Hear Hear! 

[Sim]

Life and art through rose-coloured glasses.  I often think when watching film of old ballet performances that dancers who were considered the best of the best at the time wouldn't even get into one of the big ballet schools these days (from a technique point of view).  However, they had something else to bring, and at the time standards were different.  Things develop, we develop.  Climbing Everest was a huge deal in 1953; 70 years later there are queues of people waiting to go up.  Ballet back then often looked sloppy to me, especially the men.  But it was just different from what I have been brought up watching.  They weren't better by any means than today's dancers, just different, and I appreciate both, as each new generation learns from the previous one.  

[Terpsichore]

I was 4 at the time of the last coronation and living in Bowdon which is a district of Altrincham in Cheshire.  The coronation made a big impression on me  The flower beds in the public gardens were planted with flowers in the national colours and there was bunting everywhere.   It was a sort of secular Christmas.

One of our neighbours had bought or hired a set for the ceremony and the whole neighbourhood crowded into a darkened room to watch a flickering monochrome image for what seemed an eternity.   

It was about that time that I first saw ballet.   I was far too young to be taken to Covent Garden.  But there was a lot more ballet on telly in those days.  Shortly after the coronation, we were invited back to watch a ballet on their telly.    I can't remember what it was or even the company but it impressed me far more than the service in the Abbey.

The first time I saw live ballet was in an open air theatre on Streatham Common.    I was aged 6.    My father had a teaching job at Brixton Day College and we lived near the Common.    Throughout the summer there was a different performance every week.    There were plays, concerts, musicals and ballet. 

Then we moved to Surrey.    My father who regarded the male dancers' tights and the classical tutu as slightly indecent discouraged my interest in the art but I still managed to find an aunt, cousin or neighbour to take me to the London Festival Ballet at the Festival Hall in the Christmas holidays.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Terpsichore
correcting grammar and spelling

[Richard LH]

4 minutes ago, Sim said:

  I often think when watching film of old ballet performances that dancers who were considered the best of the best at the time wouldn't even get into one of the big ballet schools these days (from a technique point of view). 

Having not seen any of those dancers live at the time,  I don't believe I would have been  inspired to become a dedicated ballet lover now from those earlier filmed performances...even those of Fonteyn. It took today's dancers to hook me. 

[Richard LH]

16 hours ago, FLOSS said:

Of course both Ondine and Daphnis and Chloe should be revived while the company actually has at least one dancer who could do justice to the roles created on Fonteyn. Unfortunately I fear that if they were to be revived in the next couple of years that we should be faced with a first cast led by Nunez and Muntagirov neither of whom would be ideal or make an adequate case for the ballets  being retained in the repertory, For me the dancer most able to act as a compelling advocate for the ballerina roles in these ballets is Hayward who dances Ashton  idiomatically with either Bracewell or Ball in the Somes' roles.

I feel this to be unnecessarily harsh on N and M,  and also rather dismissive of the other RB Principals beyond your three named choices. They all tend to be pretty adaptable to new challenges as far as I can see....even over the relatively few years I have been watching ballet, several dancers  who didn't particularly impress me at first have, to my eye, improved  and surprised  me in different works.

[OnePigeon]

I was always of the opinion that ballet was an art form that has improved greatly over the years.  My generation of dancers who I would see perform are now reaching the end of their careers, are retiring or retired a few years ago - the likes of Nunez, Acosta, Rojo etc.  I discovered and continue to discover older dancers by watching video footage of them.  It was quite a revelation for me to see Sibley and Dowell and dancers of their generation as I had assumed they would not be as good, but actually instead I found great technicians who danced with incredible grace and artistry and it opened my eyes to a style that I hadn’t really seen in my ballet going experience.  That’s not to say that dancers now aren’t good, or as good, but there is a change of style that is noticeable to me.  I think ballet has certainly changed over the years and if you are drawn to an Ashtonian style, for example, and you don’t find anyone dancing it convincingly enough I think it’s fair enough to say so, it doesn’t have to be purely due to rose coloured spectacles.  It’s all subjective at the end of the day.

[LinMM]

I think the thing is at the time you live in you can’t compare with the future! 
So you judge as you see at the time. 
Goodness me Sibley and Dowell were lovely dancers I think most would agree who saw them from the beginning of their careers. 
I couldn’t say though that say Fumi Kaneko or Yasmine Naghdi was a better dancer than say Sibley or Collier in their times they are just different and loved all the latters performances as I do the formers today. Times change and you see different qualities and that’s fine. 
I certainly would never judge any dancer from any time by ONLY film performances only though. You have to see them live as well. 

It’s for the same reason I could never judge whether Pavlova was a great dancer for myself say ….as only rather poor quality films remain of her performances. I can only assume she must have been good by what others have said and written about her …and those opinions were from her live performances …but can’t really do this for myself as I never saw her. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by LinMM

[Lizbie1]

Though we have film of previous ballet greats, I don't think we can ever capture what so enthralled earlier generations. Nureyev, Fonteyn and Pavlova may to us look pretty tame on film but so many people whose opinion I trust have spoken of them in such terms that we know that film can never be a true representation of what it was like to be in that theatre. (Personally I'm all about live performance - just a completely different level of experience IMO - so I'm perhaps easier to persuade than most.)

 

All this talk reminds me of a conversation about Maria Callas on Radio 3's Record Review a few years ago. They got onto the subject of whether Callas is/was overrated and (I think) Iain Burnside said something like "I can understand why some people feel that way, but they're wrong." And he was right - with Callas, as with Shakespeare or Bach or Petipa, the question is above anyone's personal taste. When the settled opinion of people who really know what they're talking about is that Callas was the most important female opera singer of the twentieth century, it's better to concede that it's not them, it's you.

[OnePigeon]

There will always be artists who bring something new, influencing an art form and leaving an indelible mark. They will often be regarded as legends by those who saw them at the time and go on to influence the next generation and so on.  I think Nureyev fits this category and I know he is still a huge influence on a lot of current dancers who never saw him live.  Obviously seeing a performing art, such as dance or music, live is the best way to experience the artist and art form, but as it is an ephemeral experience we can only rely on recorded performances to judge artists by once they are no longer performing.  Early film doesn’t help us much as they were not true images, with jerky camera movements often at too fast a speed.  This makes it too hard to pass judgement on Isadora Duncan or Pavlova, for example.  However, once technology developed enough and dancers found a way of being filmed that was truer to the art form, I think we can get a fairly good idea.  I didn’t need to see Fred Astaire dance live to know that he was a master of dance - his recorded performances blow me away over 90 years later, his influence is far reaching and he is still revered today.  
 

Perhaps it is different with ballet, but I can get a pretty good idea from watching a dvd of Cinderella with Sibley and Dowell how magical a pairing they were and when I compare it to my experience of watching Cinderella live from the amphitheatre cheap seats, well in some respects despite being there to witness it in the moment and all the magic that brings with it, I lost a lot of nuance in the performance and felt somewhat detached in a way you don’t when closer to the stage, or indeed, watching it in close up on a screen.
 

I do understand what you mean regarding Fonteyn and Nureyev and often assume that you needed to be there live to witness them.  I don’t actually feel like I’ve watched enough extensive footage to properly pass judgement, but there are some dancers from the past who I will never see live, but who I am instantly wowed by on film such as Baryshnikov, Marcia Haydee, Gelsey Kirkland, Makarova etc.  

[LinMM]

Yes I agree there have been tremendous advances in film since Pavlovas day so probably easier to see the true merits of a dancer on film today than in the earlier days of film. 
I have never seen Farukh Ruzimatov (Mariinsky) for example live but when I’ve seen him on film I really wish I had done!!! 
I would always say though whether I’d actually seen live or not when commenting on what I thought were any strengths of a particular dancer. 
Some dancers are particularly hard to capture on film and I would say Nureyev was one of these even though there are some good films of him. He did have this extra quality which was really nothing to do with dance ability in itself. He drew you in to be right there with him on stage you sort of felt his performance. He was not the best technician though he could jump unusually high which was not so well known back then though of course all the young men can jump well today!! 
 

[Jeannette]

I don’t know about the gala but the coronation was fabulous, especially  the golden carriage!