Giselle some additional changes

[joe blitz]

I've seen some interesting changes to Giselle, which make good sense.

When Bathilde asks Albrecht why he's dressed the way he is. He thinks a second and mimes that 

he went hunting. I think that was the Stuttgart production.

I've always found his waving his hand in the air confusing. Did he mean, it w just a whim?

That gesture   is used in Marco Spada and Esmeralda to indicate fantasy, writing poems.

Here it is very logical.

Another innovation is with the Peasant PDD.

They are presented to Bathilda and company as an engaged couple about to marry.

What do any of you think ?

 

[Suffolkgal]

I remember Wayne Eagling getting a laugh when indicating with an airy gesture that it was just a whim, playing at being a peasant! Which makes more sense as that and the hand kissing of Bathilde sends Giselle right over the edge 

[jmhopton]

I rather like the 'it's a whim' gesture. I just find it quite amusing. What I don't like, and all the Albrecht's I've seen recently seem to do it, is that he possibly tries to make up for his affair with Giselle  by being very attentive to Bathilde and ignoring Giselle (guilty conscience?) I keep hoping just one Albrecht will be a bit distant to Bathilde because he's just met someone he loves as opposed to an 'arranged' or dutiful marriage (it that's what it is) but none of them do. Perhaps it's something Peter Wright insists on, I don't know, but it always grates on me, and makes Albrecht's 2nd act declaration of love for Giselle that bit harder to understand. I know the transformation in his attitude really comes about because of Giselle's madness and death but it would have been nice to see even slight evidence of it before.

 

I like the idea of the peasant pas de deux as an engaged couple but difficult to do in the RB version unless all three couples are getting engaged, which I suppose is possible.

[Pas de Quatre]

The traditional Peasant pas de deux is such a gem I don't see why it needed to be changed into Pas de Six, which in my view doesn't work.

[Sim]

17 hours ago, jmhopton said:

I rather like the 'it's a whim' gesture. I just find it quite amusing. What I don't like, and all the Albrecht's I've seen recently seem to do it, is that he possibly tries to make up for his affair with Giselle  by being very attentive to Bathilde and ignoring Giselle (guilty conscience?) I keep hoping just one Albrecht will be a bit distant to Bathilde because he's just met someone he loves as opposed to an 'arranged' or dutiful marriage (it that's what it is) but none of them do. Perhaps it's something Peter Wright insists on, I don't know, but it always grates on me, and makes Albrecht's 2nd act declaration of love for Giselle that bit harder to understand. I know the transformation in his attitude really comes about because of Giselle's madness and death but it would have been nice to see even slight evidence of it before.

 

I think he does this because he has been brought up to perform his public and familial duty, so in front of all the nobles present he has to show that he fully intends to marry Bathilde, and that Giselle has been a mere distraction (even if he really loves her, he must keep it to himself).  He knows deep down that there is no future with Giselle, and unless he wants to alienate everything and everyone he knows in order to marry a peasant girl, he needs to make very clear that Bathilde is his future, whether he likes it or not. 

[joe blitz]

I agree with SIM.   

JMHopton: simple solution: revert to pas de deux! 

[Ondine]

The Petipa Society has a detailed account (with photos of notable Giselles of the past) ) of the more than slightly convoluted history of Giselle, and Albrecht's behaviour, which explains why there is really little logical explanation for so much of what we see these days in this 'traditional' ballet!

 

https://petipasociety.com/giselle/

 

Peasant PDD has a paragraph at the end.

 

 

Peasant Pas de deux

The Peasant Pas de deux is another of the most famous passages in Giselle and has an interesting history. Before the 1841 Paris première, one of the Paris Opèra ballerinas, Nathalie Fitz-James was determined to have her own pas in Giselle. Like many of her colleagues, Fitz-James was a mistress of one of the Opèra’s most influential patrons and used her relationship with him to influence the arrangement of a new pas to be added for her. However, Adolphe Adam was unavailable at the time to compose more music, so Jean Coralli had to look elsewhere. In the end, he arranged a new pas de deux for Fitz-James to music by the German composer, Friedrich Burgmüller from his suite Souvenirs de Ratisbonne. The new pas was later christened as the Pas des paysans (aka Peasant Pas de deux); it was first performed by Fitz-James and the danseur, Auguste Mabille and has remained in Giselle ever since.

In Petipa’s time, the Peasant Pas de deux was performed by the likes of Tamara Karsavina, Mikhail Fokine and Vaslav Nijinsky. The Sergeyev Collection includes notation scores for the pas de deux when it was performed by Agrippina Vaganova and Mikhail Obukhov. In most modern productions, the Peasant Pas de deux is performed by at least six dancers, which is not its original concept or how it was staged by Petipa.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Ondine

[Fonty]

On 28/04/2023 at 15:27, Sim said:

I think he does this because he has been brought up to perform his public and familial duty, so in front of all the nobles present he has to show that he fully intends to marry Bathilde, and that Giselle has been a mere distraction (even if he really loves her, he must keep it to himself).  He knows deep down that there is no future with Giselle, and unless he wants to alienate everything and everyone he knows in order to marry a peasant girl, he needs to make very clear that Bathilde is his future, whether he likes it or not. 

 

That is a very charitable interpretation, Sim.   I've always thought Albrecht's behaviour is a variation of the old droit du seigneur!  Of course, many men of his class married for duty and sought pleasure elsewhere, which is fine if the other woman is well aware of the situation.   To choose a peasant, and more to the point dress like one in order to fool her and seduce her, makes him a very selfish, self centred man in my opinion.  Normally the current object of his affections would probably be dismissed in favour of a newer model, but this one dies in front of him, and so it is brought home to him in the most brutal fashion exactly what he has done.  Nicely reinforced by the Willis in act 2, of course.  I have never seen Albrecht played as an out and out cad in first act, but it could certainly work and enable him to redeem himself by true remorse afterwards. 

Edited to add, now I come to think of it, Kobborg conveyed that his character's intentions were not exactly honourable when he starred with Rojo.  He gave a rather cynical leer when he doctored the flower in the "loves me, loves me not" section.  

Edited May 4, 2023 by Fonty

[zxDaveM]

On 27/04/2023 at 21:42, jmhopton said:

I rather like the 'it's a whim' gesture. I just find it quite amusing. What I don't like, and all the Albrecht's I've seen recently seem to do it, is that he possibly tries to make up for his affair with Giselle  by being very attentive to Bathilde and ignoring Giselle (guilty conscience?) I keep hoping just one Albrecht will be a bit distant to Bathilde because he's just met someone he loves as opposed to an 'arranged' or dutiful marriage (it that's what it is) but none of them do. Perhaps it's something Peter Wright insists on, I don't know, but it always grates on me, and makes Albrecht's 2nd act declaration of love for Giselle that bit harder to understand. I know the transformation in his attitude really comes about because of Giselle's madness and death but it would have been nice to see even slight evidence of it before.

 

 

Yes, he seems almost embarrassed to be caught out, and curries favour with his own class.

He's an utter cad - and I never understand why Giselle forgives him, to be honest! If Ealing Studios had make a non-dance version back in the day, Terry Thomas would no doubt have been cast as him!

[Ondine]

An interesting fact about the passing down of Giselle from generation to generation is that the scenario underwent changes that have made modern productions differ quite vastly from the productions of the 19th century. Perhaps the biggest deviations from the 19th century productions is the presentation of some of the characters, though it always depends on the production. Some productions portray Albrecht as deceitful and haughty, who is only toying with Giselle, while others portray him as warm-hearted and loving, who is genuinely in love with the peasant girl, despite his betrothal to Bathilde, another character whose portrayal has underwent change. In some productions, Bathilde is portrayed as cold and cruel, while in others, she is kind and gentle and another character whose portrayal differs is Hilarion; some productions portray him in a somewhat heroic light, while in others, he is Albrecht’s bitterly jealous rival.

 

The portrayal of these characters in the 19th century productions is as follows – Albrecht is a good-hearted, caring nobleman, who is madly in love with a peasant girl, despite his betrothal and their differences in social ranks; his relationship with Giselle is one of genuine love and affection, not a careless and selfish seduction. Bathilde is a kind and gentle noblewoman, who is drawn to Giselle and mourns for the peasant girl when she dies. Hilarion is the local forester, who, from the very beginning, is bitterly jealous of Albrecht and Giselle’s love and his jealousy leads him to ruining Giselle’s happiness when he discovers Albrecht’s true identity, but his actions ultimately result in her death. The changes made to these characters occurred during the 20th century, especially in Russia where the roles of the aristocrats became villains and the peasants became heroes; in the love triangle between Giselle, Albrecht and Hilarion, the roles of the two men were switched – Albrecht became the villain and Hilarion became the hero. As described by Yuri Slonimsky, this switch was ideologically driven by the Soviet ideology that glorified the peasants and demonised the aristocracy. However, the switch only proved to be illogical since Hilarion remained the one to die at the hands of the Wilis, while Albrecht was still forgiven and rescued.

There have also been significant changes made to certain moments in the story, with the most distinctive being the opening sequence, the cause of Giselle’s death and the ending.

 

Read on!

 

https://petipasociety.com/giselle/

 

 

 

 

[Geoff]

2 hours ago, Ondine said:

Read on!

 

https://petipasociety.com/giselle/

 

This is a marvellously entertaining website with much to interest the informed as well as the casual reader (including a lot of visual material which is quite hard to obtain elsewhere). However I think it would only be fair to add a gentle warning: academics have murmured about it somewhat. The primary author is to be encouraged: she is doing very well with this project (although it is not as complete as one might think when first coming across it) However she came in for a fair amount of criticism a couple of years ago (including from me and including on this forum) for her involvement with a less than scholarly book, a novel sold as history, if I remember the row on Amazon about it. So care is advised.

[Ondine]

34 minutes ago, Geoff said:

 

This is a marvellously entertaining website with much to interest the informed as well as the casual reader (including a lot of visual material which is quite hard to obtain elsewhere). However I think it would only be fair to add a gentle warning: academics have murmured about it somewhat. The primary author is to be encouraged: she is doing very well with this project (although it is not as complete as one might think when first coming across it) However she came in for a fair amount of criticism a couple of years ago (including from me and including on this forum) for her involvement with a less than scholarly book, a novel sold as history, if I remember the row on Amazon about it. So care is advised.

 

 

Oh yes, care and a large dose of scepticism as with any research.

 

However, it still remains that  Giselle isn't actually handed down to us as a museum piece from the romantic era, delighful ballet that it is, but has been mangled over the years to suit choreographers, dancers, political ideologies and the rest and we really shouldn't treat a ballet that has supernatural creatures appearing at night to dance unwary men to death in a cloud of dry ice too seriously with regard to motivation etc.

 

I've seen scores of Giselles and just go with the flow.  The music, the dancing, the romance. It's my all time favourite and I still cry when she dies.

 

My pet gripe is the knocking, when Albrecht at times ignores the music.  Also, why are they harvesting grapes in a forest? But hey.

 

Postscript

 

Cyril Beaumont's book is still available.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ballet-Called-Giselle-Cyril-Beaumont/dp/1852731524

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Ondine

[joe blitz]

hi Ondine.   Albrecht knocking on door.   I agree  there are some who mistime the music and his knocking; it looks awkward and amateurish.

[Sim]

8 hours ago, Fonty said:

 

That is a very charitable interpretation, Sim.   I've always thought Albrecht's behaviour is a variation of the old droit du seigneur!  Of course, many men of his class married for duty and sought pleasure elsewhere, which is fine if the other woman is well aware of the situation.   To choose a peasant, and more to the point dress like one in order to fool her and seduce her, makes him a very selfish, self centred man in my opinion.  Normally the current object of his affections would probably be dismissed in favour of a newer model, but this one dies in front of him, and so it is brought home to him in the most brutal fashion exactly what he has done.  Nicely reinforced by the Willis in act 2, of course.  I have never seen Albrecht played as an out and out cad in first act, but it could certainly work and enable him to redeem himself by true remorse afterwards. 

Edited to add, now I come to think of it, Kobborg conveyed that his character's intentions were not exactly honourable when he starred with Rojo.  He gave a rather cynical leer when he doctored the flower in the "loves me, loves me not" section.  

I don't think I'm being charitable because I too intensely dislike Albrecht's duplicitous behaviour, irrespective of whether he really loves Giselle or whether he is indeed exercising his 'droit de seigneur.'  The original remark was that the poster hates the way Albrecht shows so much attention to Bathilde in front of Giselle when he is caught out, and I was just saying that he does it in order to show that he will be marrying Bathilde, whether he loves Giselle or whether he has just been using her.  He isn't necessarily doing it to hurt Giselle at that moment, but to show his fellow nobles that he will be doing the 'right' thing.  I think it depends on how Albrecht is played...he can be played as a heartless cad, or he can be played as a noble who is sick of the ties that brings with it and really enjoys being with Giselle and her friends where he can let go and feel free.  As we know, being noble or aristocratic doesn't necessarily equate to have brains or forethought, so he is a young man living for the moment, without giving any thought to how it will all end.  Or he is an unfeeling cad with no care for the consequences of his actions.  I have seen both versions played, and they both work in different ways.  

 

Edit:  have just seen this on the website above, which also says the same thing (poor grammar excluded!!):

 

Some productions portray Albrecht as deceitful and haughty, who is only toying with Giselle, while others portray him as warm-hearted and loving, who is genuinely in love with the peasant girl, despite his betrothal to Bathilde, another character whose portrayal has underwent change. 

[zxDaveM]

the cad element definitely comes out with his whispered asides to his valet at the start of the ballet (who seems to be trying to 'get him back on track') as to his motives in getting down and dirty with the peasants.

But what the heck, I still love the choreography in act 2 more than I can possibly describe

[Fonty]

1 hour ago, Sim said:

  As we know, being noble or aristocratic doesn't necessarily equate to have brains or forethought,

 

True!  In fact, being a male of noble birth in any ballet seems to make him automatically a bit of an idiot. 

I've always felt rather sorry for Hilarion, I've never thought of him as a villain at all.  As a peasant himself, he is well aware that nothing good can come out of a relationship of a peasant girl with a nobleman, no matter how much Albrecht claims to love her.  It seems very unfair that he ends up dying.  

[Sim]

2 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

True!  In fact, being a male of noble birth in any ballet seems to make him automatically a bit of an idiot. 

I've always felt rather sorry for Hilarion, I've never thought of him as a villain at all.  As a peasant himself, he is well aware that nothing good can come out of a relationship of a peasant girl with a nobleman, no matter how much Albrecht claims to love her.  It seems very unfair that he ends up dying.  

I totally agree, Fonty.  Hilarion is trying to save Giselle by revealing the truth, and ends up paying the ultimate price for doing the right thing.  But as my hubby says, it's all about class.  The peasants can die, but the aristocrat survives and moves on with life.  Giselle and Hilarion are expendable, but he is not.  If either of those men had to die, it should have been Albrecht.  But then...we wouldn't have had the glorious Act 2!!  

[Fonty]

Thinking about the descriptions of the characters in Giselle in the 19th century, that all seems to be the typical thought of that era, with a handsome romantic prince, a beautiful girl from a lower class who has captured his heart, and a black hearted villain who comes along and spoils it all.  A little too treacly and sentimental for my taste.  

[Dawnstar]

3 hours ago, Fonty said:

I've always felt rather sorry for Hilarion, I've never thought of him as a villain at all.  As a peasant himself, he is well aware that nothing good can come out of a relationship of a peasant girl with a nobleman, no matter how much Albrecht claims to love her.  It seems very unfair that he ends up dying.  

 

I didn't think of Hilarion as being a villain in the ROH's production but in the United Ukraine Ballet's version last year I thought Hilarion was portrayed as an out and out caricature of a villain, right down to his very fake-looking black beard.

[FionaM]

I’ve always thought the great tragedy of the ballet is that Albrecht doesn’t actually realise that he has wholly fallen in love with Giselle until she goes mad and dies … otherwise it makes no sense at how distraught he is, pushing his squire away and trying to stay with Giselle once she is already dead. 
 

The whole ballet for me turns on whether I can believe Albrecht’s love was true by the end of Act 1.  There is no point to him turning up in Act 2 if all he is feeling is some guilt at being the reason some village girl died. 

[Ondine]

16 minutes ago, Dawnstar said:

 

I didn't think of Hilarion as being a villain in the ROH's production but in the United Ukraine Ballet's version last year I thought Hilarion was portrayed as an out and out caricature of a villain, right down to his very fake-looking black beard.

 

I always saw him as the decent, ordinary local lad in love with Giselle (despite the possible dicky ticker) and who Bathilde hoped for as a son in law. He saw through Albrecht from the outset as someone being deceptive, up to no good, and was horrified that the love of his life was being stolen from him and he could do nothing about it.  He couldn't forsee the tragedy that would unroll once Albrecht was unmasked as the (son of?) the local noble, though you'd have thought the locals would have known who he was anyhow!

 

Ours not to reason why. Once that overture plays I'm mush. I just go along with it all!

[Ondine]

50 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

I always saw him as the decent, ordinary local lad in love with Giselle (despite the possible dicky ticker) and who Bathilde hoped for as a son in law. He saw through Albrecht from the outset as someone being deceptive, up to no good, and was horrified that the love of his life was being stolen from him and he could do nothing about it.  He couldn't forsee the tragedy that would unroll once Albrecht was unmasked as the (son of?) the local noble, though you'd have thought the locals would have known who he was anyhow!

 

Ours not to reason why. Once that overture plays I'm mush. I just go along with it all!

 

 

Doh. Not Bathilde but Berthe of course.

[Scheherezade]

I have also always felt that Hilarion unfairly got the rough end of the stick but I think that you have to justify his death on the basis that his actions in calling out Albrecht were motivated by self interest, in that he wasn’t about to lose Giselle to some toff if he could help it, rather than concern for Giselle as such. 

[joe blitz]

wrong quote. and don't know how to 'unselect' what I did. sorry

 

I just wanted to say that according to what I've read especially in Beaumont's book, Ballet Called Giselle and what I saw in past productions years ago, Hilarion, so-called villain, was portrayed with red beard, signifying bad guy.

That was the symbol: red beard for bad guys.

In recent years he's portrayed as very sympathetic, helpful to Berthe and generally a nice guy. She likes him.      

Interesting, though, that he doesn't interact with the other villagers.  

[Ondine]

29 minutes ago, joe blitz said:

wrong quote. and don't know how to 'unselect' what I did. sorry

 

I just wanted to say that according to what I've read especially in Beaumont's book, Ballet Called Giselle and what I saw in past productions years ago, Hilarion, so-called villain, was portrayed with red beard, signifying bad guy.

That was the symbol: red beard for bad guys.

In recent years he's portrayed as very sympathetic, helpful to Berthe and generally a nice guy. She likes him.      

Interesting, though, that he doesn't interact with the other villagers.  

 

Is Hilarion not meant to be a forester, who therefore lives on his own in the forest? A bit of a loner?

 

Another mystery is why there just happens to be handy a cottage standing close to Giselle's which Albrecht can use as a changing room.

 

As for the peasant PDD / pas de six, I always looked at it as a version of balletic Morris dancing. The local side entertaining everyone gathered in the clearing.

 

Best not overthink it really.  Every fresh production brings a different interpretation to try to make sense of it all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joe blitz]

"Another mystery is why there just happens to be handy a cottage standing close to Giselle's which Albrecht can use as a changing room." 

Yes, I've seen many remarks about that. Was it deserted? and no one seems to notice.

Also odd that Giselle introduces him to her friends. He's never been around before?

I prefer a PDD rather than pas de six. Maybe because that's what I'm used to.

I also think that it 'dilutes' it.     

some say it gives more dancers a chance to dance.

 

But let's not analyze  the ballet too much.    Suspension of disbelief 

 

 

[alison]

4 hours ago, joe blitz said:

wrong quote. and don't know how to 'unselect' what I did. sorry

 

The standard Windows "Undo" keystroke combination of Ctrl+Z should work, for future reference.

[Ondine]

I came across this new 'behind the scenes' documentary Backstage at Giselle made and recently posted on YouTube by Antonio Lanzo of Polish National Ballet for International Dance Day and this seems as good a place as any to share it.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Ondine

[joe blitz]

Thanks, Alison. I tried it and it seems to work. Now hope I'll remember how to do it

[joe blitz]

On 04/05/2023 at 22:42, Dawnstar said:

 

I didn't think of Hilarion as being a villain in the ROH's production but in the United Ukraine Ballet's version last year I thought Hilarion was portrayed as an out and out caricature of a villain, right down to his very fake-looking black beard.

 

 

Isaw some of it on YouTube and I know what you mean. He was an unshaven, black-bearded unsavory character.   I'd like to see all of Ratmansky's version. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be available.

[Ondine]

3 hours ago, joe blitz said:

pyright.

 

I have seen it, the whole thing, Bolshoi.  I was totally smitten by it.

 

Hilarion is Hans in the Ratmansky version.

 

I didn't find him unsavoury as I recall, he's not a noble and yes has a beard, he is a forester,  and he is desperate for Giselle to appreciate that her new 'love'  is not in fact all he seems. Fair enough. Albrecht is after all a deceiver.

 

Bathilde is portrayed as more human and less snotty aristo too.

 

The Bundu Ballerina has extracts,

 

Krysanova  Ovcharenko Shipulina -  Ratmansky Giselle Excerpts Act 1 & Act 2 on YT.

 

Also Ratmansky  Peasant PDD.

Kokoreva &  Gusev -  Ratmansky Giselle Peasant PDD Variations & Coda

 

It's quite a 'mad scene'. 

 

There's that castle again, how is it no-one has a clue who Albrecht is though he lives so near? Or is he visiting his real fiance's family?

 

 

 

 

[alison]

I thought the castle belonged to the Duke of Courland, Bathilde's father?  So presumably Albrecht was indeed "visiting" - but perhaps more of a long-term visit like we see in The Winter's Tale, where travel is so difficult that you make the most of the situation by staying a long time.

[Ondine]

Probably. So where does Albrecht live?  Why is he there? (Not that any of this matters really!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Ondine