Giselle some additional changes

[stucha]

On 05/05/2023 at 17:09, Ondine said:

 

 

Another mystery is why there just happens to be handy a cottage standing close to Giselle's which Albrecht can use as a changing room.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've always thought of it as not so much a cottage as a shed.  

[stucha]

9 hours ago, joe blitz said:

 

 

Isaw some of it on YouTube and I know what you mean. He was an unshaven, black-bearded unsavory character.   I'd like to see all of Ratmansky's version. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be available.

 

It is on YT. Search Giselle Olga Smirnova

[joe blitz]

With the Royal Ballet and some others I've seen lately Bathilde shows dislike of having Giselle touch her or really anything to do with her.     It didn't used to be like that..

[Ondine]

40 minutes ago, joe blitz said:

With the Royal Ballet and some others I've seen lately Bathilde shows dislike of having Giselle touch her or really anything to do with her.     It didn't used to be like that..

 

 

The Ratmansky isn't like that, Bathilde comes cross as a sympathetic character, and watch the ending.  Giselle, Bathilde and Albrecht all look so very young too, which adds another dimension.

 

The so called 'mad scene' is beautifully done, and the Elizaveta Kokoreva & Georgy Gusev Peasant PDD simply lovely.

[Ondine]

6 hours ago, stucha said:

It is on YT. Search Giselle Olga Smirnova

 

Thank you. As it doesn't mention Ratmansky it's hard to find.  And the lovely Katya Novikova! 

 

That's my Bank Holiday sorted.

 

 

[Ondine]

7 hours ago, stucha said:

I've always thought of it as not so much a cottage as a shed.

It seems to depend on the version. In some it is more a posh shed, in others a humble cot.

 

 

[Ondine]

10 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

 

 

 

Thank you. As it doesn't mention Ratmansky it's hard to find.  And the lovely Katya Novikova! 

 

That's my Bank Holiday sorted.

 

The Ulanova film is out there too, the first Giselle I ever saw many many years ago and still worth watching. One of the greats.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Ondine

[joe blitz]

If that' s the same performance, Albrecht didn't look that young to me.

Thank you, Stucha for the link .

You're right about Albrecht's "pied a terre. It does usually look like a deserted shed.

The graveyard scene I've seen in other productions, perhaps ABT, but there Hilarion and his friends are gambling until they're frightened away by the Willis.

They did look comical.

Some productions omit that altogether.

 

[Ondine]

This one must be a VERY posh shed, it has a leaded window! 🙂

 

https://www.ft.com/content/c0381392-451a-11e7-8d27-59b4dd6296b8

[Sim]

2 hours ago, joe blitz said:

With the Royal Ballet and some others I've seen lately Bathilde shows dislike of having Giselle touch her or really anything to do with her.     It didn't used to be like that..

I think this approach makes eminent sense in the context of the time in which the ballet is (usually) set.  Bathilde is kind and generous to the peasant girl Giselle, and even gives her her necklace as a wedding present when Giselle tells her she's engaged.  As I mentioned upthread, I have always thought that this ballet is about class as much as it's about the other themes of love, forgiveness and redemption.  Bathilde can be sweet to Giselle, but the line is drawn at physical contact.  No aristocrat in those days would have let a peasant touch them, so when Giselle tries to touch Bathilde, the line has been crossed and Bathilde reacts accordingly.

[joe blitz]

I"ve heard that even today one of the etiquette rules is not to touch the sovereign (like Queen Elizabeth. Obama's wife and I think also joe Biden came in for criticism for having done that.

[joe blitz]

If anyone would like to see more of Artemy Belyakov search on YT. Plenty of him dancing different roles.

 

[Ondine]

There's a review here of the United Ukrainian Ballet's Ratmansky Giselle

 

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2022/sep/14/united-ukrainian-ballet-giselle-review-coliseum-london

 

 

The fiancee Bathilde (Ksenia Novikova), often played with a sneer, is here kindly, distraught at Giselle’s distress.

 

 

Although the ballet can’t speak directly to events in Ukraine, Ratmansky’s excavations also reshape the ending, facing towards the future. It honours terrible loss – and the courage in finding reasons to survive.

 

 

[Emeralds]

Having Bathilde flinch and withdraw away from Giselle quickly is quite a new (1990s) addition, which seems to have started with the current RB production, possibly to make it more interesting for audiences. In the older productions (even Peter Wright’s own versions for SWRB and in Germany, the old Mariinsky/Kirov one, and other productions in Europe), Bathilde was not bothered about Giselle kissing her hand in gratitude. Of course, theatre conventions didn’t necessarily have to reflect real life etiquette, as it was just fiction and fantasy. 

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

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[Pas de Quatre]

The whole of the Polish ballet's production of Giselle is available on YouTube. I have dipped in and out, and it is glorious.

 

If Giselle is considered untouchable because she is a peasant, then why are the aristocrats happy to accept refreshments from her and her mother, and then enter her cottage for a rest? It sometimes feels as though Berthe is a somehow "superior" peasant, and I am sure I have read somewhere in the past, that perhaps Giselle herself is the product of an irregular liaison.

[Ondine]

Ah well. Given the length of the piece from which I quoted, by Alistair Macaulay, it  was actually quite a brief quote I felt, setting up what was in the scholarly history of the ballet Giselle and the discussions with noted Giselle experts.

 

Whatever. Here is the link again, for anyone seriously interested (as I am) in the lengthy and ever evolving history of the ballet Giselle. There's even a picture of Robert Helpmann as Albrecht /  Albert dead at the end. Albrecht hasn't always stood alone as dawn broke, a tragic figure bereft.

 

https://www.alastairmacaulay.com/all-essays/giselle-questions-answers

 

My last post on the subject, apart from to recommend again that Bolshoi Peasant PDD. Proper steps, beautifully danced.

 

[joe blitz]

Hi Pas de Quatre:   I've also read that maybe Giselle is a  product of an  "irregular liaison".

I think it was mentioned in Cyril  Beaumont's book, the Ballet Called Giselle.

And somewhere I read the comment that asked if Giselle's home was some kind of refreshment stand. 

[CHazell2]

Hi everybody

 

I would be interested to know why the changes to Bathilde's character were made. It is fascinating to learn all this stuff as I love Giselle and I love seeing the restorations that Ratmansky has made and also the Pacific Northwest Ballet's version which harks back to the Justament notes as well. 

 

I much prefer the diagonal ending to Giselle's Act 1 variation and the vertical lifts in the first Act 2 Pas de Deux. I don't like the press up lifts - I think that they look rather silly.  

 

[stucha]

20 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

 

The so called 'mad scene' is beautifully done, and the Elizaveta Kokoreva & Georgy Gusev Peasant PDD simply lovely.

 in this full length version, Elizaveta Kokoreva is dancing with Alexei Putintsev.  The clip with Kokoreva/ Gusev  is from another recording. He is excellent.

Edited May 9, 2023 by stucha

[stucha]

52 minutes ago, stucha said:

 in this full length version, Elizaveta Kokoreva is dancing with Alexei Putintsev.  The clip with Kokoreva/ Gusev  is from another recording. He is excellent.

 

Correction.  It is Daria Khokhlova and Alexei Putintsev.  

[Ondine]

13 hours ago, stucha said:

 

Correction.  It is Daria Khokhlova and Alexei Putintsev.  

 

To be clear as there appears to be confusion.

 

There is footage in two separate clips of the Bolshoi Ratmansky Giselle posted by The Bundu Ballerina

 

Krysanova Ovcharenko Shipulina  -  Ratmansky Giselle Excerpts Act 1 & Act 2 (about half an hour)

 

and

 

Kokoreva & Gusev  -  Ratmansky Giselle Peasant PDD Variations & Coda

 

Both of those I believe are from the same performance.

 

There is another YT of the Bolshoi Ratmansky Giselle also, different dancers, posted on YT by maya which is a cinema broadcast in full.

Giselle  -  Olga Smirnova, Artemy Belyakov 

The Kokorova & Gusev Peasant PDD was what I referred to.  Yes he's a little untidy at times but my goodness they dance it so joyfully!

 

The full cinema version obviously has the Peasant PDD, and yes beautifully and flawlessly danced

 

It can also be found as a clip posted by Notas de Ballet

 

GISELLE  -  Pas Paysant (Daria Khokhlova & Alexei Putintsev - Bolshoi Ballet)

 

but the verve and bouyancy of the Kokorova & Gusev pairing was a delight to watch.

 

As with anything on YT, these could vanish at any time.

 

There is other footage also, but I thought I'd clarify what was posted here.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Ondine

[stucha]

10 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

 

The full cinema version obviously has the Peasant PDD, and yes beautifully and flawlessly danced

 

but the verve and bouyancy of the Kokorova & Gusev pairing was a delight to watch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree with you re Kokoreva and Gusev. Just magic.

 

Kokoreva was recently promoted to the rank of Principal.

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by stucha

[JNC]

On 08/05/2023 at 09:16, joe blitz said:

With the Royal Ballet and some others I've seen lately Bathilde shows dislike of having Giselle touch her or really anything to do with her.     It didn't used to be like that..

I don’t think the Paris Opera version is like this as well? I think it’s better when Bathilde isn’t so cruel and harsh, why would she give Giselle her necklace if she didn’t want her to touch her? (Could be the necklace is so meaningless to her and it’s almost done as a cruel prank, but it seems a bit unlikely to me.)

 

When Bathilde is kinder it’s just another emphasis to the sadness of the whole situation - Albrecht either knowingly or unknowingly manipulating both women, if Bathilde is nice you feel sorry for her also and that amplified the sadness you feel for Giselle (in my opinion). 

[Peanut68]

Yes - I agree! I’ve viewed it in the past as almost an unwritten empathy & sign of feminist sisterhood but that sadly it’s the old class & wealth & status divide that’s at play… that really the 2 woman are actually in the same situation of not be able to make life choices… that they are both victims of a misogynistic and paternalistic class system. 
Frankly, rather than being a catch, Albrecht is a dishonourable player & both women would be better off without him! I’m wondering if I’ve seen (or imagined?) a version where Bathilde & Myrtha is a duel role danced & meant to be envisioned as one & the same…like a prophecy? As let’s face it, marriage to that cad Albrecht would be a slow death wouldn’t it? He’d be unfaithful, likely physically & mentally abusive (as he is to Giselle),controlling & a gas lighter The full works of bad behaviour of an overly entitled narcissist! Ive definitely seen Albrecht portrayed exactly as that with absolutely no redeeming characteristics - even to the end. That the women make a silent protest yet still maintain the status quo by allowing him to live… & no doubt go on to ruin the lives of many more peasant & posh girls!! 

[Angela]

22 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

an overly entitled narcissist

 

Then why should he visit Giselle's grave in the middle of the night, with absolutely no audience to see his fake tears, instead of hunting for the next peasant girl? That's a long way for self-pity...  And why should Giselle come back from her grave to rescue him, is she really two times wrong about him? What a stupid girl. Makes no sense to me.

 

22 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

physically & mentally abusive

 

I don't see how someone portrayed by a danseur noble can ever get physically abusive, I'm sorry.

[joe blitz]

What about Mayerling?   Danseur  Noble e.g. Vadim is VERY physically abusive.

Depends  on the role.

[Peanut68]

Oh dear….I fear I am in danger of getting labeled a snowflake! 
It is true that ‘yogi today’ are influencing sone of my views & making me perhaps more aware of how things can be read….& I enjoy challenging myself to view things from different perspectives! 
I guess I have always been one to look at the true message we send out to society…. Never was one to watch Pretty Woman & think ‘ah, what a nice happy ending film’…. I found it morally vacant & pushing trash values….cannot believe that it got a re-visit by becoming a musical in recent times…. 
I do not approve of censoring history but I do think historical pieces including ballets can stand us asking questions & occasional reworkings…. Such as Akram Khans very thought provoking version of Giselle 

[Angela]

15 hours ago, joe blitz said:

What about Mayerling?   Danseur  Noble e.g. Vadim is VERY physically abusive.

Depends  on the role.

 

Rudolf is a dramatic role, not a danseur noble role.  Sorry, wrong phrasing: I think Albrecht is THE example for a danseur noble role, and of course Vadim Muntagirov is a danseur noble, but cast as Rudolf he becomes a dramatic dancer.

In the good old times of Coralli, Perrot and Petipa, they still had type-casting (or the Russian emploi), so if Albrecht were such a villain like you suggest, he would have been danced by a character dancer, not a lyrical dancer. Of course there may be traces of doubt about his personality, but what I think is that all the beautiful choreography of the second act would be utterly senseless without believing in something like true love - from both sides, from Giselle and Albrecht.

[LinMM]

I know it’s not a nice thing to do but a little bit harsh to condemn somebody to death for being a cad!! 
Giselles Forgiveness in the ballet  makes more sense to me as from there you can move onwards and upwards as the saying goes….and hopefully not get caught out again. 
Best to see things through and LIVE and learn! ( next time around for Giselle lol!) 

Albrecht has a chance to learn too from being saved when he could have been killed…so also progressive ….if he takes the opportunity of course! 
I suppose us women should all recognise a cad and make sure we use all our wits to make sure we fall in love with a worthier person lol!! 
However Life ( and therefore Literature and Art etc)  is littered with the tragedies of those who don’t! 
I was sort of replying to Peanut68 in saying that the women were maintaining the status quo by allowing him to live for him to go on ruining others lives etc. 

Whereas I tend to see it that dancing him to death( in this case) would be maintaining the status quo but saving him allows for transformation and progression! 

Edited May 17, 2023 by LinMM

[Peanut68]

18 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

It is true that ‘yogi today’

Oh dear…. Should’ve proof-read…. ‘Yogi’ was meant to read as ‘Yoof’ (as in youth!!) 

Quite a different reading 😂

[Peanut68]

Good points Angela… again there are staging options:- whether historical or contemporary can give opportunities for vastly differing interpretations….I for one love to see right across the spectrum! 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Peanut68

[Sebastian]

On 17/05/2023 at 14:15, LinMM said:

I know it’s not a nice thing to do but a little bit harsh to condemn somebody to death for being a cad!! 
Giselles Forgiveness in the ballet  makes more sense to me as from there you can move onwards and upwards as the saying goes….and hopefully not get caught out again. 
Best to see things through and LIVE and learn! ( next time around for Giselle lol!) 

Albrecht has a chance to learn too from being saved when he could have been killed…so also progressive ….if he takes the opportunity of course! 

Also worth remembering - as Giselle’s mother does - that the Wilis are on the look out for just such men. Some years ago we had an interesting discussion here about the Wilis and who they are. Here is my last post on that subject, maybe interesting to look back:

 

https://www.balletcoforum.com/topic/14339-english-national-ballet-mary-skeapings-giselle-london-coliseum-2017/?do=findComment&comment=200100

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Sebastian